Problem with start up and idle and complete stumped

[fatti03msp]

ok so here is my problem.

My car was running good, i did the 1.8L coilpack conversion and added some new NGK plugs. I gapped the plugs to .028 and installed them at the same time. After i did that my car was having a real rough idle and would stall when i would first start up the car for the day. It felt like i was running a piston short or something cause i had to ride the clutch to get it moving. So i went like that for a week just hoping it get better, but i didnt.

So with the same setup i installed the perrin fuel rail and it ran even worse lol. so i looked at the my plugs which where in the car for lil under 2 weeks and they where a lil white and the piston 2nd from the left was more white then others. so i switched back to the stock coils and wires hoping that it would fix the problem and it was a lil better but not by much.

So today i got new plugs and gapped them at .030, installed them and the car is still running rough, i was at a 450rpm idle a couple of times and then it just stalls. But once i start moving its fine and the car has a semi miss a lil bit, when i come up to a light or stop sign but its not a horrible real bad miss. But when i get on it everything is fine, boost is good, vac is good when im just coasting in a gear and my A/F ratios are how the normally are. Also i dont have to ride the clutch anymore to pull out so that is a plus.


Me and my one buddy who is a tech can figure out what the hell is wrong with the car, if anybody has any suggestions that would be great and thanks for taking the time to read this long post. Whoever can figure it out my problem if there is one ill send you a zoom-zoom-boom decals im getting made for me lol.

[fatti03msp]

bump anybody have any suggestions

[TurbomanProtege]

hey I'm thinking vac leak, but also sounds like pre-ignition... did you try to pull the wires off to make sure both coil packs are firing

[SleepyMSP]

just a shot in the dark but either your timing slipped (don't know how though) or you have been feeding her with some bad gas

I would remove the fuel rail and bring it back to the way it was before the problem started to see if that that fixes the issue

part of my also wants to say the EGR but I don't see how if would have triggered it unless its just complete coincidence

[SleepyMSP]

oh one more thing...are you sure you put the packs in the right firing sequence? I'd be surprised if this was the case but just throwing it out there

[BOOSTR]

I'd check the timing as stated above. How old is your belt?

[fatti03msp]

ill check my timing and i do have wires in the right spot lol, i also heard that i chould check my IAC solienad (however you spell that). I also will check the vac. It all started when i switched to the 1.8L coilpack and new plugs.

Also whenever i finally getting moving and it stalls when i start moving a lil bit, its running lean as hell, my wideband reads --

[25FConv]

ill check my timing and i do have wires in the right spot lol, i also heard that i chould check my IAC solienad (however you spell that). I also will check the vac. It all started when i switched to the 1.8L coilpack and new plugs.

Also whenever i finally getting moving and it stalls when i start moving a lil bit, its running lean as hell, my wideband reads --

Jo0 gotz a pm!

[fatti03msp]

Jo0 gotz a pm!

replied back, thanks for the info.

[magnumP5]

Did you ever figure this out? I just installed the Perrin fuel rail and now my idle is funny at times as well. Will be perfectly fine and then drop real low about once every minute or so and the AFRs will go really lean and then slowly come back to normal as the car catches itself. I have a nice CEL because of this...

[fatti03msp]

Did you ever figure this out? I just installed the Perrin fuel rail and now my idle is funny at times as well. Will be perfectly fine and then drop real low about once every minute or so and the AFRs will go really lean and then slowly come back to normal as the car catches itself. I have a nice CEL because of this...

no i haven't really had time to figure it out but thats weird your having the same problem too, did you happen to get the CEL checked out???

[junya1985]

go to autozone they check it for free
do you think you might need to get an upgraded fuel pressure regualtor?

[magnumP5]

no i haven't really had time to figure it out but thats weird your having the same problem too, did you happen to get the CEL checked out???
Yep, P0171: Bank 1 - System too Lean. I had it checked and cleared and it came on about 70 miles or so later. The car drives just fine and for the most part idles fine too it's just that occasionally it will try to die, the AFRs go lean and if it does this too many times the same CEL returns.

When you installed the Perrin fuel rail, did you reuse that little blue thing that was in the end of the stock line? I did, but for some reason I can't fully clamp the end of the hose on the Perrin (the one they supplied). It doesn't leak from what I can tell (I've had my hand down there while the car was running) but I'm curious as to if that might be the issue. It also looks like I'm going to have a hell of a time getting that connection off - I tried pulling it off when I first installed it to no avail...

[Flspeed]

What fuel management are you running?

[magnumP5]

What fuel management are you running?
Me or the OP? Personally, I am running the SS AFC V2 but technically it is supposed to have zero impact on the car during vacuum conditions (ie idle).

[fatti03msp]

Yep, P0171: Bank 1 - System too Lean. I had it checked and cleared and it came on about 70 miles or so later. The car drives just fine and for the most part idles fine too it's just that occasionally it will try to die, the AFRs go lean and if it does this too many times the same CEL returns.

When you installed the Perrin fuel rail, did you reuse that little blue thing that was in the end of the stock line? I did, but for some reason I can't fully clamp the end of the hose on the Perrin (the one they supplied). It doesn't leak from what I can tell (I've had my hand down there while the car was running) but I'm curious as to if that might be the issue. It also looks like I'm going to have a hell of a time getting that connection off - I tried pulling it off when I first installed it to no avail...

i took that blue thing off and it clamped perfectly in place. It was on and it took me for ever then i noticed it and took it off and it was all good.


Me or the OP? Personally, I am running the SS AFC V2 but technically it is supposed to have zero impact on the car during vacuum conditions (ie idle).

im running the same fuel mangament too.

[magnumP5]

i took that blue thing off and it clamped perfectly in place. It was on and it took me for ever then i noticed it and took it off and it was all good.
Okay, I'll try to remove that and I'll see how it goes. Having you ever removed that line since installing the Perrin? Mine isn't even clamped and I can't seem to get it off.

[fatti03msp]

Okay, I'll try to remove that and I'll see how it goes. Having you ever removed that line since installing the Perrin? Mine isn't even clamped and I can't seem to get it off.

i havent taken off the line since i installed, but when and if you do get your line off and get the blue thing off, it will clamp right

[magnumP5]

i havent taken off the line since i installed, but when and if you do get your line off and get the blue thing off, it will clamp right
This is what I'm hoping. That, and I'm going to go over all my injector o-rings and spacers to make sure none are torn or broken. After that's it's vacuum leaks and then who knows what. A fuel rail is a fuel rail so tha car shouldn't be running differently with the Perrin installed.

[shane02pro5]

Just a theory but from the regulator to the injectors there is more volume so either the heat from the bigger rail or just the volume is slightly dropping the pressure. Can you guys make a small adjustment to fuel at idle from 500-1000rpm range -22vac to around -18vac.

[shane02pro5]

Also what are your afr's at idle? Mine sits best at 13:1 so that when the a/c kicks in it won't fall off and die when it dips lean from the compressor.

[magnumP5]

Just a theory but from the regulator to the injectors there is more volume so either the heat from the bigger rail or just the volume is slightly dropping the pressure. Can you guys make a small adjustment to fuel at idle from 500-1000rpm range -22vac to around -18vac.
While that is true I thought the FPR always kept the fuel pressure inside the fuel rail at some constant (I believe this is 22 psi when off and 45 psi at idle according to the FSM?) so even if there is a larger volume I would hope the FPR would just allow more fuel into the rail to keep the pressure constant. This is why you have to do a whole 'fuel prep' procedure before doing any fuel work to avoid spraying gasoline everywhere.

Technically I could make minute adjustments to the air/fuel ration in the range but for the most part it really isn't necessary. I mean the car mostly idles just fine at AFRs that average 14.7:1 but maybe once every 1-2 minutes it will want to stall and the AFRs will go lean. I thought about trying to add some fuel at idle but that would just make my idle over all richer but I'd still have that occasionally lean spit - maybe just not as bad.

Also what are your afr's at idle? Mine sits best at 13:1 so that when the a/c kicks in it won't fall off and die when it dips lean from the compressor.
I'm running the stock MSP ECU with the SS AFC V2 so my idle is around stoich. Because of the relocated MAF though it usually varies between like 14:1 and 15.5:1 so the average is roughly 14.7:1.

[shane02pro5]

I could never idle at 14.7 at least not with my a/c on. As soon as the comp kicks in i'd lean out like .5afr so that's why I mentioned 13.0 being a bit more stable. Might just try bumping fuel on those few bars and see if it changes anything.

[magnumP5]

I could never idle at 14.7 at least not with my a/c on. As soon as the comp kicks in i'd lean out like .5afr so that's why I mentioned 13.0 being a bit more stable. Might just try bumping fuel on those few bars and see if it changes anything.
That's weird, maybe it's a Haltech thing? I know when I currently put my AC on it'll bump lean for a second before returning to normal and do the same when I turn it off (usually more severe) and this still holds true with the Perrin fuel rail. If everything I try (inspection, new parts, etc.) doesn't work I probably will try to bump up the fuel trim at idle a little. I mean, at the point, it couldn't hurt, right?

[Flspeed]

I would have to say Manum is dead on. When you run different fuel rail and injectors your car at idle would run rich. If your running just a mbc then in boost your ecu maybe trying to compensate and making you running lean. I would definitely check the afr from idle to boost and set up at about 11.5.

[magnumP5]

Well the stock FPR is, in fact, a rising rate FPR from what I can tell. Now I don't have my fuel pressure gauge installed yet but the FPR is supplied vacuum via the intake manifold and I didn't see a check valve on that line. This means the FPR actually sees boost. I'd imagine it uses this pressure signal to adjust to fuel pressure in the fuel rail. Again, just because the rail has more volume doesn't necessarily mean the car will run lean or rich. The way I understand it is that the FPR wants a desired fuel pressure, say 22 psi when the car is off, in the fuel rail. Ideally, the FPR allows more and more fuel into the rail until the pressure is reached. Now, add a larger fuel rail and theoretically the FPR would have to let more fuel into the new rail to maintain this pressure. However, it's the injectors, not the fuel rail that control the amount of fuel added to the air. With that being said, if the injectors are the same then the amount of fuel being allowed into the combustion chamber should also be the same. Now if you added larger injectors, then yes, I'm certain you'd see a rich condition.

I'm pretty sure now that I have a leak or bad seal somewhere. I'm going to try to remove everything again and inspect all the parts closely. I'll probably reinstall the Perrin rail for a day or two and if the problem persists I'll probably reinstall the stock rail to see if the issue goes away. If not, well, then I screwed something up. If the problem does go away then more than likely it's the Perrin rail that is to blame.

[fatti03msp]

Well the stock FPR is, in fact, a rising rate FPR from what I can tell. Now I don't have my fuel pressure gauge installed yet but the FPR is supplied vacuum via the intake manifold and I didn't see a check valve on that line. This means the FPR actually sees boost. I'd imagine it uses this pressure signal to adjust to fuel pressure in the fuel rail. Again, just because the rail has more volume doesn't necessarily mean the car will run lean or rich. The way I understand it is that the FPR wants a desired fuel pressure, say 22 psi when the car is off, in the fuel rail. Ideally, the FPR allows more and more fuel into the rail until the pressure is reached. Now, add a larger fuel rail and theoretically the FPR would have to let more fuel into the new rail to maintain this pressure. However, it's the injectors, not the fuel rail that control the amount of fuel added to the air. With that being said, if the injectors are the same then the amount of fuel being allowed into the combustion chamber should also be the same. Now if you added larger injectors, then yes, I'm certain you'd see a rich condition.

I'm pretty sure now that I have a leak or bad seal somewhere. I'm going to try to remove everything again and inspect all the parts closely. I'll probably reinstall the Perrin rail for a day or two and if the problem persists I'll probably reinstall the stock rail to see if the issue goes away. If not, well, then I screwed something up. If the problem does go away then more than likely it's the Perrin rail that is to blame.


keep me updated man.

[shane02pro5]

Find some other guys with the perrin rail and see if they had any issues.

[magnumP5]

Find some other guys with the perrin rail and see if they had any issues.
LOL, that's exactly what I'm doing :)

[fatti03msp]

Hay magnum whats is your vac at when your idleing, mine was 20-21 know its 18-19, sometimes its 20 but mine sounds like it has a consistant lil miss at idle and when i put the car in nuetral it doesnt drop the RPM's like it used too.

[magnumP5]

Typically it's around 20 mm Hg although I've seen it as high as 22 mm Hg and as low as 18 mm Hg. Before the fuel rail install it stayed at 20 mm Hg mostly and I don't know if it went down or not - I was paying more attention to my wideband than anything else.

As for hissing - that does sound like a vacuum leak. I know I have a small leak somewhere in the cabin in my boost gauge/AFC line. I really don't know where it is because I removed all the lines a few months ago and inspected then and reinstalled with zip ties but I still get a small hissing noise at times. When I get around to going over them again I'm probably going to try to reduce the number of connections and also teflon coat everything to the extreme!

[fatti03msp]

i have the AEM wideband and it reads -- so its past 18, im assuming yours is that lean too.

[magnumP5]

i have the AEM wideband and it reads -- so its past 18, im assuming yours is that lean too.
Mine only reads '---' for a brief period of time at startup and when I let off the gas to cruise. For the most part my idle floats around 14.7:1 but when it stumbles it will shoot upwards of 17:1 and the slowly come back down. What you're describing is beginning to sound more and more leak an exhaust leak around your wideband and/or primary O2 sensor. A while back I lost a stud in my downpipe between my wideband and primary O2 sensor and it caused my AFR readings to be consistently lean and it would through P0171 (first time I encountered it). When I get the chance I'm going to inspect my manifold and downpipe for cranks/leaks assuming the problem is still there.

[fatti03msp]

im so confused lol, this all started when switched to the 1.8l coilpack, know im on the stock coils and i just replace my manifold with a brand new thunder one too. hoping that would fix the problem a lil bit, i think my first 02 sensor might be bad so ill get some prices and replace that hopefully it will fix the problem. I just dont get how this all started when i switched to the 1.8 coilpack.

[magnumP5]

Couple of things:

Go to www.onlinemazdaparts.com (http://www.onlinemazdaparts.com) for the O2 sensor; they're like $110 there.

Also, check the thunder manifold for cranks as I've been reading a lot of cracking case with those lately.

[fatti03msp]

Couple of things:

Go to www.onlinemazdaparts.com (http://www.onlinemazdaparts.com) for the O2 sensor; they're like $110 there.

Also, check the thunder manifold for cranks as I've been reading a lot of cracking case with those lately.

my buddy works at a dealership so im going to see what kind of deal he can give me.

well i just got a brand new one and they added lots of welds and bracing and they even ported and polished it a lil bit too.