Oil Analysis on my Mazdaspeed3

[nhluhr]

I did my first oil change on my MS3 at exactly 3750 miles. I went to Pennzoil Platinum 5w30 with a MazdaGenuine oil filter and o-rings.

Anyway, during the oil drain, I took a sample in a Blackstone Labs kit and sent it off. Got it back today:

http://www.grapon.com/ms3/oil/OilAnalysis_003750.gif

Some people had said DI and the MS3 in particular was susceptible to fuel contamination in the oil. I'm getting none of that. Aside from high Copper and Silicon, everything looks good. I Will update this thread once I do the next oilchange and get the results back on that.

[enganear]

Thanks for the post. I have a Blackstone kit here on my desk waiting for the next oil change. I will be changing from Mobil 1 5W-30 to PP 10W-30.
-enganear

[desperado-c]

Thanks for the post. I have a Blackstone kit here on my desk waiting for the next oil change. I will be changing from Mobil 1 5W-30 to PP 10W-30.
-enganear

Do they ask what the original viscosity is? Seems noteworthy that the viscosity is down to 20 from the original 30. In the past I thought they'd attributed this to fuel dilution, but then my memory gets worse all the time. Maybe it just from normal shearing.

[nhluhr]

There is no proof that it WAS 30 to begin with. I wasn't at the factory when they filled it with whatever was in it. In fact, I was under the impression that it is typical for new cars to be filled with a lighter weight oil for break-in.

[desperado-c]

There is no proof that it WAS 30 to begin with. I wasn't at the factory when they filled it with whatever was in it. In fact, I was under the impression that it is typical for new cars to be filled with a lighter weight oil for break-in.

Wow, how existential of you. I don't think they'd want to go any lighter on the viscosity with a turbo motor. In fact, I am under the impression that they use 30 weight since with the heat of the turbo or fuel dilution or whatever it ends up being 20 weight after awhile, which just happens to be what the N/A 2.3 uses.

[nhluhr]

Do you have any extreme-low-mileage UOA to support that it is supposed to be 30W?

[CWPspeed3]

I just did my first oil change too at 2170miles to Pennzoil Platinum 5w30.
Why do the comments say "..common finds in new engines such as your 4.2L."?

[desperado-c]

Do you have any extreme-low-mileage UOA to support that it is supposed to be 30W? If I did, would I rely on reason the way that you rely on existentialism? In any case, look at some more UOA's and you'll see that they almost always end up at around 20 weight even when the owners know from direct perception that the bottles of oil they put in claimed to have 30 weight oil in them.

[desperado-c]

I just did my first oil change too at 2170miles to Pennzoil Platinum 5w30.
Why do the comments say "..common finds in new engines such as your 4.2L."?

Beat me to it. I forgot to mention the 4.2L MS3. Awesome, I want one!

[Betelgeuse]

I saw the 4.2L as well. Hopefully you got the right UOA and it wasn't a mixup.

Anyway, it seems the oil loses some viscosity in these engines from all the UOAs I've seen. Several theories exist as to why but many believe it's fuel dilution. Just don't go nuts on the intervals - keep them relatively short (3500-4000 miles or less)and the motor should stay healthy (just my opinion).

[nhluhr]

I just did my first oil change too at 2170miles to Pennzoil Platinum 5w30.
Why do the comments say "..common finds in new engines such as your 4.2L."?I don't know why he wrote that. Probably a transient ischemic attack or something. I emailed them back asking to revisit the comments section and make sure there wasn't a mixup.


If I did, would I rely on reason the way that you rely on existentialism? In any case, look at some more UOA's and you'll see that they almost always end up at around 20 weight even when the owners know from direct perception that the bottles of oil they put in claimed to have 30 weight oil in them.I looked at several of the most recent threads on BITOG regarding the 2.3L DISI where the oil grade was known to be 0/5/10W30 and they ALL had higher cSt@100 than mine, which indicates either the factory fill breaks down too easily or it is a 20wt oil.


I saw the 4.2L as well. Hopefully you got the right UOA and it wasn't a mixup.

Anyway, it seems the oil loses some viscosity in these engines from all the UOAs I've seen. Several theories exist as to why but many believe it's fuel dilution. Just don't go nuts on the intervals - keep them relatively short (3500-4000 miles or less)and the motor should stay healthy (just my opinion).When have you seen UOA's for high performance engines that don't show viscosity reduction? Seems like every one of the UOAs I have seen from the WRX and STI world showed the same.

[Betelgeuse]

When have you seen UOA's for high performance engines that don't show viscosity reduction? Seems like every one of the UOAs I have seen from the WRX and STI world showed the same.

At what interval? I had one done at 3k miles (5w 30) and viscosity was still slightly below average. My last car made 220 hp n/a (not sure if you'd class it as high performance)and never had viscosity issues even at 5k + intervals (5w 20).

I'm not saying it is fuel dilution for sure but these cars do run very rich. Maybe it's a thing with turboed cars.

[desperado-c]

At what interval? I had one done at 3k miles (5w 30) and viscosity was still slightly below average. My last car made 220 hp n/a (not sure if you'd class it as high performance)and never had viscosity issues even at 5k + intervals (5w 20).

I'm not saying it is fuel dilution for sure but these cars do run very rich. Maybe it's a thing with turboed cars.

Yeah, it's not "high performance" it's the heat shear from running through the turbo. Nothing comparable in an N/A engine. Or maybe it fuel dilution from running under high PSI? Again, a turbo issue.

[nhluhr]

By "High Performance" I meant anything that is making big-engine power on small displacement... i.e. turbocharged. I haven't owned a non-turbo car for over 12 years, but for what it's worth, it doesn't take a turbo to break down viscosity.

An S2000 with 2300miles on the oil:
http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll26/Jimbo3277/S2000/D41430_0001.jpg

[nhluhr]

I'm not saying it is fuel dilution for sure but these cars do run very rich. Maybe it's a thing with turboed cars.It seems the 2008.5 does not run very rich at all. This dyno run shows the AFR for a stock vehicle and then the same vehicle with the AP. Note the AFR lines. The lower/richer line is the AP run. It seems Mazda has recalibrated the 2008.5 to utilize a lean-burn strategy. Christian said this one is running way leaner than the 2007 and 2008 MS3's he had previously tested but that once flashed with AP, it ran exactly where his mapping specified just like with those prior models.

http://www.grapon.com/ms3/2008-5_dyno_afr.jpg

[FrequentFlyer]

If that's the case, that car is running dangerously lean for a turbocharged car. That looks like a decent N/A fuel curve, but not for FI. Since my gas mileage in the past few weeks of ownership has been less than stellar (about 25mpg with 80% highway driving), I'm not sure how much leaner the 08.5 is actually running. Maybe this was a factory freak.

[Betelgeuse]

Well thanks for posting that info on the 8.5. I have to agree with frequent though, that seems kinda lean for stock. Hopefully we'll see some other dynos to compare.

[nhluhr]

Direct injection allows a car to run significantly leaner than port injection... but that seems a little overboard. I too look forward to more dyno results.

[nhluhr]

Not that this is conclusive, but:



I believe there may have been an error when compiling my report. The comments refer to the engine as being 4.2L when I have a 2.3L, as noted on the test-sheet header.

Can you have another look at my sample analysis and revisit the comments section just to make sure there was no mixup?

Also, regarding the comment that it is down to SAE20W in viscosity, I am not sure what the factory-fill for this engine is supposed to be. Do you have any data from samples taken extremely early in the 2.3L DISI-Turbo Mazda engine's life to shed light on this? Vehicles that would utilize this engine are: CX-7, Mazdaspeed3, Mazdaspeed6

Thanks,
NickNick: Thanks for the e-mail. I'm sorry about the engine error in the comments. Whoever did the report must have been looking at a different oil informaiotn slip when they typed the engine size in the comments. This does not change the data or the averages (they are correct for the 2.3L Turbo), but I will correct the comments and send you a new report. As far as the oil type is concerned, we have seen a lot of sample from this type of engine when it's new, and for the most past, the viscosity has been in the 20W range, so I suspect they are using 5W/20 at the factory.

Let me know if you have any more questions.

Sincerely,
Blackstone Labs

[CWPspeed3]

I wonder why the factory would put in a 5w-20 but spec 5w-30. Without a response back from the lab I just would have thought after the oil gets used it starts to thin out and resemble a 20 weight, especially with the direct injected history of fuel dilution however minor it may be.

[Mid_Life_Crisis]

"The oil was in good shape physically and free of coolant, moisture and gas."

Why are so many of you blaming the viscosity findings on gas in the oil when the report clearly states that there was none?
I have no idea what the cause is, but read the report, because it isn't gas dilution.

[Super Unique]

Try shearing of the viscosity index additives, caused by running it through the turbo charger..... Simple, and normal explanation for reduced viscosity. Also accepted by most experts as normal.

[desperado-c]

If that's the case, that car is running dangerously lean for a turbocharged car. That looks like a decent N/A fuel curve, but not for FI. Since my gas mileage in the past few weeks of ownership has been less than stellar (about 25mpg with 80% highway driving), I'm not sure how much leaner the 08.5 is actually running. Maybe this was a factory freak.

Factory freak, mis-calibration, something. Plenty of people with 8.5's posted to say their 8.5's don't run that lean.

[desperado-c]

Direct injection allows a car to run significantly leaner than port injection... but that seems a little overboard. I too look forward to more dyno results.

Not that much leaner unless you're talking about stratified DI instead of homogenous. Ours is homogenous and not gonna be a lot different than regular FI.

[desperado-c]

I wonder why the factory would put in a 5w-20 but spec 5w-30. Without a response back from the lab I just would have thought after the oil gets used it starts to thin out and resemble a 20 weight, especially with the direct injected history of fuel dilution however minor it may be.

That was a quick email off the top of his head. Definitely not conclusive. If it's not heat shearing or fuel dilution due to the turbo, why would turbo engines generally spec w/higher viscosity than the standard 20 weight?

[Betelgeuse]

Try shearing of the viscosity index additives, caused by running it through the turbo charger..... Simple, and normal explanation for reduced viscosity. Also accepted by most experts as normal.

+1
I'm beginning to lean this way as well. But I heard the dyson analysis is more accurate with regards to fuel dilution than Blackstone. Again that's just through the grapevine. I plan to do one to see if the results are indeed any different.

[nhluhr]

did my second oil change at 7882 Tuesday. Will post the Blackstone report when they email it to me. Oil level was perfect, no odd colors or smells, and just a little dirty looking.

My subaru's oil was always black after 3000 miles.

[jp4130]

I remember when the MS3 first came out some of the owners manuals had been edited. At first they were printed calling for 5-20. Then they were changed to 5-30. Maybe Mazda had to mess around with 5-20 in these cars to reach corporate fuel milage targets. Then they got the car aproved and switched the reccomended oil wieght. Who knows maybe they still have to leave the factory filled with 5-20 for fuel milage targets, or possibly to allow for break in?

[CWPspeed3]

did my second oil change at 7882 Tuesday. Will post the Blackstone report when they email it to me. Oil level was perfect, no odd colors or smells, and just a little dirty looking.

My subaru's oil was always black after 3000 miles.

Cant wait to see how it turns out. I'm almost to the point of my second oil change waiting to see how the PP looks when it comes out.

[coololddude]

life is good when you have lots of time to analyse your OIL!!! WTF!!

[MS3-oholic]

Here is my oil analysis I had done a few weeks ago.

[nig3]

i use 10/40 here in hot ass houston, was even considering 20/50 soon. thicker is better for any high performing hot turbo motors and will add a margin of saftey. ive noticed in the past that using thinner oil like mobil one 5/30 and 10/30 will definatly increase oil consumption and cause turbo seals to leak sooner.

[MS3-oholic]

I'm moving back to Beaumont at the end of Sep. I'm getting out of the Navy. My car has never used oil, the level remains rock solid between changes. San Diego is known for it's mild climate though.

[strytnyne]

i use 10/40 here in hot ass houston, was even considering 20/50 soon. thicker is better for any high performing hot turbo motors and will add a margin of saftey. ive noticed in the past that using thinner oil like mobil one 5/30 and 10/30 will definatly increase oil consumption and cause turbo seals to leak sooner.


haha its not the heat its the humidity =/ sucks to live in 80-100% humidity

[FrequentFlyer]

Here is my oil analysis I had done a few weeks ago.

Glad to see there's no fuel dilution.

[MikeHTally]

I just did my first oil change too at 2170miles to Pennzoil Platinum 5w30.
Why do the comments say "..common finds in new engines such as your 4.2L."?
I was wondering about that myself. Not sure I'd trust a laboratory where they can't read. This is the second example I've seen. Wonder how often they mix up samples?

[nhluhr]

I was wondering about that myself. Not sure I'd trust a laboratory where they can't read. This is the second example I've seen. Wonder how often they mix up samples?If you read the thread you will see they had made a typo. They sent me an ammended analysis report. Anyway, this is an old thread and I'm expecting my oil analysis report for the second oil change to be mailed in the next couple days.

[FrequentFlyer]

i use 10/40 here in hot ass houston, was even considering 20/50 soon. thicker is better for any high performing hot turbo motors and will add a margin of saftey. ive noticed in the past that using thinner oil like mobil one 5/30 and 10/30 will definatly increase oil consumption and cause turbo seals to leak sooner.

I just noticed that this info on the K04 by Neuspeed recommends 20W-50 for the summer and 10W-40 for winter. Things that make you go, "hmmmm?". Now, I think 20W-50 is a bit extreme, but 10W-40 should be a good compromise. At any rate, 5W-30 is definitely too thin:

http://www.clubb5.com/information/ko4.shtml