Flat Foot Shifting

[GullyBoy21]

Is Flat Foot Shifting dangerous for the ms3? and is it good for quicker times?

[SPEED305]

awesome for quicker times.
as long as you do it quick, you should have no problems.

[GullyBoy21]

i just tried it yesterday... i was nervous about it, but it feels good. Are you sure it wont fuck my tranny?

[///M Compact]

From the November 2006 Car and Driver road test of the MS3:

Calls to Mazda yielded tips: Pop the clutch at 2900 rpm, upshift at 6000 — redline is 6700 — and flat-shift through second and third (which means don't lift at all — the mechanical equivalent of dropping a Steinway on the clutch and half-shafts and violating our test procedure).

"Don't worry," the engineers said, "it won't break."

It didn't — even after painting the pavement Bridgestone black with more than 30 hole shots.

[GullyBoy21]

Cool...do i also flat shift through 4,5,and 6?

[shane02pro5]

I've never understood this concept and can't imagine it not leading to something bad after a while!

[shane02pro5]

Unless the tranny was designed for it!

[RXMmazdaspeed]

tried it yesterday for the first time, ripped the tires shifting into third pretty good. works great :).

[shane02pro5]

I would definately not trust the stock protege transmission using this method!! An MS3 is a totally different animal!!

[GullyBoy21]

yeah i agree the ms3 is a horse of a different color... lol but seriously in what gears am i allowed to FFS?

[mckraut]

Tried this once a few weeks ago. I felt dirty afterward...

[shane02pro5]

LOL!

I have too close of a relationship with my car to abuse her like that!

[montrealms3]

I too read that article a while ago, but have wondered ever since how to truly do a flat foot shift . . . do you use the clutch or do you just slam it up into third without letting off the gas? I would assume you don't use the clutch as having your foot planted on the gas pedal and the depressing the clutch would just be bad . . . of course, this whole thing sounds bad and worries me, but I am not one to shy away from trying something . . . especially if it will give me a few more tenths.

[SPEED3TYPE2]

I too read that article a while ago, but have wondered ever since how to truly do a flat foot shift . . . do you use the clutch or do you just slam it up into third without letting off the gas? I would assume you don't use the clutch as having your foot planted on the gas pedal and the depressing the clutch would just be bad . . . of course, this whole thing sounds bad and worries me, but I am not one to shy away from trying something . . . especially if it will give me a few more tenths.

+1!!! exactly how do you do this??

[mckraut]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powershift

[Jays07MS3]

Just hold down the gas and then tap the clutch and upshift as fast as you can. Got to do it fast or it will rev too much between the shift. You only tap the clutch enough to get it into gear and then immediately let it out.

EDIT: That wiki article contradicts itself

Unlike a normal gearchange in a manual transmission, a powershift does not utilize the clutch at all. ...
A powershift can be performed in a road car if done as follows. Accelerate through first gear, when you near redline, pull hard on the shifter, don't pull it out of gear though (very unlikely anyway). With the accelerator still floored "kick" the clutch pedal to just about the release point and let it spring back up. The car shifter will slam into second gear and you will continue accelerating. It is difficult to time correctly and also very hard on the car.

[mckraut]

Just hold down the gas and then tap the clutch and upshift as fast as you can. Got to do it fast or it will rev too much between the shift. You only tap the clutch enough to get it into gear and then immediately let it out.

EDIT: That wiki article contradicts itself

You're wrong, wikipedia is the end all and be all of knowledge! You changed the entry yourself, I know it! :-)

I was lazy and didn't feel like looking for a real instruction set, so I used wiki. I'm board the failboat now...

[wisniaPl]

I've try it today andIm impressed its way way faster. At first I did it slowly and reved to much but my second attemp was sick i did this so fast that car screamed like trying to rip the road apart ..the hardest is to put it on 3rd you can misshift(I mean not put into 3rd just on neutral)

[SPEED3TYPE2]

someone take a vid!!

[enganear]

Just be ready for the torque steer!
-enganear

[Jays07MS3]

Just be ready for the torque steer!
-enganear

+1 Powershifting feels awesome and all but it literally tries to rip the wheel out of your hand. But there's no faster way to shift this car. I only do it rarely though maybe once or twice a week when I'm feeling frisky (drive2)

[SharkDiver]

someone take a vid!!

a video of what?Just hold the gas to the floor and push the clutch then shift and let off the clutch.(drive2)

[MS3077]

a video of what?Just hold the gas to the floor and push the clutch then shift and let off the clutch.(drive2)

+1

[niz55]

I did it also and when i shift in 3rd you can hear the back fire when the car hits the rev limiter. i will take some videos today with my friend 20g sti and his bad ass custom orange paint.

[wisniaPl]

I usually dont do 3rd gear :p because im so ahead other car cant catch me

[SPEED3TYPE2]

maybe this is the secret of a good 1/4...

[Sveivo]

powershifting and flatshifting are two different things

[slo4now]

These were instuctions on how to powershift manuel trans in general.
And how to do it on transmissions set up for road racing, not your ms3.



You will hurt something if prolonged attempts are done.

[GullyBoy21]

lol i can't believe i brought this to everyones attention... Here i thought i was the last one to know. Does anyone realy know if its save though?

[SgtP]

I would use it at the track only.

[Sacrilicious]

flat foot shifting will get the job done faster, but the bottom line is that it will wear out your clutch faster. how much faster? who the heck knows...=d the car was obviously designed to handle the rough shifting without breaking, but breaking and wearing out faster are two different things. if you're willing to hasten your clutch replacement in exchange for some fun, then by all means, go for it! if you're into babying your car, then FFS realizing that you're putting extra wear on things.

also, something to keep in mind: if you FFS, you will likely cause tire spin in the lower gears, so that's not necessarily a good thing for going fast. i, personally, prefer just to stick with shifting as quickly as i can the good old fashioned way, because FFS is just too much of a double-edged sword for my tastes, and i really don't give a rat's ass about breaking the 1/4 mile a few 10ths of a sec faster...

[shane02pro5]

It is possible for anyone to mis-shift without flatshifting! The results are worse with the gas pedal to the floor.

[AutoXRacer]

There is nothing wrong with hitting the rev limiter... I used to do it all the time in my Miata while autocrossing. Thats what the ECU is designed to do to protect the engine. And the MS3 ECU is even more protective than any other ECU I've come across...

Regarding the clutch and tranny, well thats another story...

I tried it once and it felt good. I didn't feel like it abused the car or anything. Yeah, the clutch got a little hot, but its not meant to be done all the time. I shifted slightly under 6K and I was in gear with clutch engaged before the RPMs reached the limiter... I did not pop the clutch though, just quick smooth release...

[Ben Nast]

If your at a drag strip its worth doing if it means breaking into the 13s or if modded 12's. Its like anything fun(beer)(drugs, drinking)(band)(dance)(blarf), done all of the time will probably reduce the life of your "powertrain" but done in moderation is fine.(lol2)

[Demi]

Thats what the ECU is designed to do to protect the engine. And the MS3 ECU is even more protective than any other ECU I've come across...


When does the rev limiter kick in? When i installed my BOV i was revving with the clutch in and it hit 7000rpm, but the read line is at 6800. Ive never hit the rev limiter out of fear, but i would be all about trying this if i knew when it would take over.

[AutoXRacer]

When I've hit the rev limiter, it bounced on the 6700 RPM range...
Didn't really look at it closely since I was too busy trying to drive. (lol2)

[Demi]

Will it hit it with the clutch ingauged? Quick! Someone check!

[AutoXRacer]

It should not make a difference...the ECU is tuned to cut fuel at a certain RPM regardless of clutch engagement...

[Demi]

Well i know for a fact ive hit 7000 sitting. Is mine broken?:(

[Kooldino]

I'd be more worried about wearing the clutch doing this.

I did do it in the 1/4 mile before though.

[wisniaPl]

Its always funny when people are saying ooo your bouncing on rev limiter its not good for the engine...thats why we have rev limiter to protect the engine

[C.A.T.A.P]

I have done this in a race and it helped so much when i raced a srt8

[Mocoso]

I think there are two camps and Im confused as to which one we are talking about:
1. Shifting by fully engaging the clutch but without lifting the throttle
2. Shfting by yankin the stick and just kicking the clutch a little till the stick breaks loose into the next gear all without lifting the throttle

I assure you #2 is NOT what the engineers said wont break...IMHO doing #2 is asking for a new tranny... I believe what most of you are talking about is #1 which I agree all it would do is shorten your clutch life..

[DKo5]

I could never FFS this car, despite what everyone is saying - its my baby! I'd hate to hurt her :(

[wutangjn12]

Edit:

[djthom]

it is really hard to catch it just right in this car...
at the track i have miss shifted and blown my time...

as for hurting my car...meh not too worried b/c i don't do it all the time

[GullyBoy21]

Its good to see that this thread is still alive since i last made it. I've done it about 4 times and i only mest up once. FFS is not hard. You just have to be quick. I only do it 2,3, and fourth gear b/c they are easier to engage.

[KZL_99ES]

i've tried, and it's not too bad...

now do all pro's have a rev limiter in them? i don't think that i've hit mine, usually shift at right around 6k

(i know this is in a ms3 thread, but someone has to know)

[shucky]

I've FFS pretty much each time I've made a WOT run in my MS3. Zero probs. Not saying it doesn't reduce the life of the clutch, but so far I've never even smelled clutch burn, not once. I dont beat my car to death, but I do some spirited runs pretty often and always FFS my 2-3, 3-4, and 4-5 shift. Pedal feels fine and its been over a year doing this. So perhaps Mazda wasn't lying when they said "you wont break it.." Also, I tried finding my DH log, but dont have it at work, I've seen up to 7300 rpm blip (for a split sec) during a FFS run. So I dont particularly know what the rev limiter is on the MS3, or what it allows for a blip of a second.

[Sphincter]

New '08-09 Cobalt SS actually gave it another name in hopes of making more sales, "No-Lift-Shift Feature".

[HiggyGT]

New '08-09 Cobalt SS actually gave it another name in hopes of making more sales, "No-Lift-Shift Feature".

Flat foot shifting, No lift shifting, WOT shifting, Power shifting, its all the same. If you do it properly and you dont do it 10 times a day your car will be fine. Ive done it many times in this car and many times in previous cars with no negative effects.

It also helps to keep boost levels up between changing gears, which keeps the power levels up.

[Sacrilicious]

the cobalt's no lift shift is assisted by the ECU, so it's a little different. it really is a good feature, because even though the throttle is WOT, the car is kept spooled electronically and the RPM is allowed to sit at 6krpms or something like that. it's sorta like a built-in WOT box, but better.

[15min5k]

the cobalt's no lift shift is assisted by the ECU, so it's a little different. it really is a good feature, because even though the throttle is WOT, the car is kept spooled electronically and the RPM is allowed to sit at 6krpms or something like that. it's sorta like a built-in WOT box, but better.

Yeah it takes the skill out of driving. I'll pass

[Sacrilicious]

it also reduces wear on the trannie. this is purely a personal preference at this point. in the end, there's no need to be elitist about "driving skill", because a good feature is still a good feature.

[Zimmer]

if you wonder if it helps reads FMOS's notes on his drag times here:
http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123702111&page=17

[15min5k]

it also reduces wear on the trannie. this is purely a personal preference at this point. in the end, there's no need to be elitist about "driving skill", because a good feature is still a good feature.

That's subjective. It's not a good feature if you think it's for a candy ass who feels the need to relay on electronic devices for lack of skill. If you like electronic nannies that make driving fast easier then more power to you. Some folks on the other hand take pride in knowing they had more to do with the outcome of a race, etc than some f'n computer.

[Sacrilicious]

you mean like ABS, drive by wire, and the MS3 ECU in general? the cobalt's FFS feature isn't going to make you any faster if you're already a proficient unassisted FFS'er, but it IS going to save your trannie a bit more, which isn't half bad. electronic nannies are everywhere...the cobalt's FFS is a whole lot less obstructive than the vast majority of the features that came with our car (DSC, TC, etc.).

[sleeper3]

This thread is funny ;)

[mattj3636]

launch control and the no lift shift on the cobalt does take away the skill of performance driving, as for DTC on our cars... thats why you turn it off when you want to drive aggressively, leave it on just for a safety factor... you ever try to do a good launch with DTC on? howd that go... yeah thats what i thought.

the cobalt is so computer driven it really does take the fun out of it, and the only reason it set the record on nurbring or whatever the hell its called is because of the no lift shift... mainly because it holds boost levels, theres no loss of boost which means no turbo lag which adds up to shave off seconds in an 8 minute track.

that = not needing skill to be the fastest driver out there.

all of the ECU shit the ms3 has that you listed is mainly safety features, theres no performance ones such as launch control (for people who don't know how to correctly launch a fwd car) and no lift shift (for those who dont know 1. how to power shift, 2. how to shift correctly with minimal boost loss).

[sleeper3]

you think that the no lift shift feature adds up to 8 seconds savings for a (semi)professional driver on nurburgring? lol.

[mattj3636]

um yeah actually with constant upshifting and downshifting... not having turbo lag in a turbo car would save a good 8 seconds in an 8 minute track.

[mattj3636]

also, the only reason the cobalt has a faster 0-60 and 1/4 mile, well the article i read had the speed's time ridiculously slow for some reason, is because of the launch control and no lift shift as well...

being able to drop the clutch at any rpm and have the best possible launch is quite an advantage to have, especially when you dont know how to drive.

[sleeper3]

you're missing the point. the guys that take cars around nurburgring (especially the ones who "rate" the cars) are probably better drivers than you or I. I sincerely doubt that aids designed for inexperienced drivers are going to help the time all that much. the turbo on the MS3 spools extremely quickly from what I have noticed. my boost gauge could pretty much be used as a TPS display.

The launch control and no lift shift is so that little 18 year old kids can take their brand new cobalts that their parents just bought for them to the local drag strip and run what the magazines say they are supposed to run.

[mattj3636]

im 18 and i have a ms3 that i pay for myself... lol

but anyways.

what im saying is there being no turbo lag in a 260 hp turbo car, would make the time that much better than a car that has turbo lag, same driver in each car

[Tigs]

you think that the no lift shift feature adds up to 8 seconds savings for a (semi)professional driver on nurburgring? lol.

Semi Pro driver? I'm assuming you're referring to the time the cobalt set at the ring. The driver is quite familiar with racing the cobalt in SCCA competition (and winning it) as well as extremely familiar with the ring. Driver advantage goes a long ways on an 8 mile course, so I'm pretty confident that a good chunk of that time is simply the good ol' driver mod.

Smaller track, Motortrends lightning lap, puts the cobalt 3 seconds ahead of the speed 3 on a 4 mile run. Thus the ring times should only be about 6-8 seconds apart at best. Factor in the drivers...and well, there ya go. Plus, I do believe there is a part of the ring which will alllow the cobalt to reach it's 160+ mph top speed whereas the speed 3 is governed lower than that.

There is no doubt that on a pure performance basis chevy hit the mark, as their new cobalt is that good. I'd never trade my speed 3 for one though. Of course, that doesn't mean I won't be lining up to pickup the 'new' speed 3 that's already been seen testing at the ring. I cannot imaging Mazda not putting out a product that will surpase the cobalts performance, what would be the point of that :)

[spdjnke]

OKAY kids,

The end conclusion is someone SERIOUSLY try this for awhile and let ALL of us know if it BLOWS up then we'll have the true answer...simple!!

[MikeHTally]

OKAY kids,

The end conclusion is someone SERIOUSLY try this for awhile and let ALL of us know if it BLOWS up then we'll have the true answer...simple!!
Sorry, guys. Not me. I figure on keeping this car for a long time with no major issues. A destroyed clutch/transmission is not in my plans. I'll do it every now and then, but not very often.

[15min5k]

I'll already blew my tranny power shifting. It doesn't take much my friends.

[spdjnke]

I'll already blew my tranny power shifting. It doesn't take much my friends.

Power shifting you say?? hmmm somehow I don't think any car can take that if it doesn't have a beefed up after market clutch or tranny with a splatter shield. Not really suprised...

[15min5k]

Power shifting you say?? hmmm somehow I don't think any car can take that if it doesn't have a beefed up after market clutch or tranny with a splatter shield. Not really suprised...

Yes same as flat foot shifting, meaning shifting without letting off the gas.

[Daddy MO]

Today on my test drive the salesman was having a blast in the passanger seat. The MS3 GT kinda let me down off the line and normal agressive shiting thru 4th. Felt like the boost dropped to much. Then I did what you guys call "flat shifting" and the car came alive.

Flat shift = WOT through the gears
Speed shift = WOT through the gears, no clutch

[15min5k]

Today on my test drive the salesman was having a blast in the passanger seat. The MS3 GT kinda let me down off the line and normal agressive shiting thru 4th. Felt like the boost dropped to much. Then I did what you guys call "flat shifting" and the car came alive.

Flat shift = WOT through the gears
Speed shift = WOT through the gears, no clutch

Shifting would make things a lot better.

The turbo in the MS3 spools really fast, maybe you drove a lemon.

[Sveivo]

Shifting would make things a lot better.
+1

[Daddy MO]

Shifting would make things a lot better.

The turbo in the MS3 spools really fast, maybe you drove a lemon.

Oh geez... ok WOT during shifts. Better?

Yeah, im really hoping I drove a lemon. I talked to the salesman today he was joking to this other younger guy and said "yeah hes gonna buy your car". WTF? Then the guy said "yeah, I been driving this one home as a demo for 3 weeks". F that!!! Them dudes probably thrashed that particular car.

If not, then the lag on the MS3 sucks. What size turbo is it? Ayone ever try going hybrid? Small impellar w/ larger shell? Hell, I dont even know if ppl are still doing that. That was back in the 90's when we started doing that.

[SPEED305]

i still love it.

[FMOS Racing]

You MUST powershift these cars to get the best quarter mile times. The ECU re-opens the throttle blade too slowly if you let off the gas.

+3 mph and -4 tenths in the quarter from powershifting.

I have 75 quartermile passes on mine over just a few months, practically all powershifted. No issues so far. However, it is practically impossible to powershift the 2-3 shift with the stock shifter mounts and motor mount. Too inconsistent, too easy to hit first.

[sleeper3]

I have just the motor mount and the only issue I ever have is the 1-2 shift if I shift slightly earlier than I should. the tranny and linkage moves around tons on this car.

[sleeper3]

Oh geez... ok WOT during shifts. Better?

Yeah, im really hoping I drove a lemon. I talked to the salesman today he was joking to this other younger guy and said "yeah hes gonna buy your car". WTF? Then the guy said "yeah, I been driving this one home as a demo for 3 weeks". F that!!! Them dudes probably thrashed that particular car.

If not, then the lag on the MS3 sucks. What size turbo is it? Ayone ever try going hybrid? Small impellar w/ larger shell? Hell, I dont even know if ppl are still doing that. That was back in the 90's when we started doing that.

is 14 seconds flat on a stock car not fast enough for you? if that's the case, you should be on another forum.

[FMOS Racing]

I have just the motor mount and the only issue I ever have is the 1-2 shift if I shift slightly earlier than I should. the tranny and linkage moves around tons on this car.

I changed the motor mount and carved down the stock shifter mount bushing standoffs at the same time so I can't really comment on the two things separately. Guess I could've gotten by with just the mount, but I was on a roll in the garage. ;)

[Daddy MO]

is 14 seconds flat on a stock car not fast enough for you? if that's the case, you should be on another forum.

14 flat is an impressive ETA for any stock compact car. the one I drove just didnt feel anywhere near 14 flat. I would say high 14's. Like I posted before though, seems like this car might have been beaten on. They also dont usually let the car idle after any test drives. I dont know, im hoping it was just that particular car.

[NW08S]

You have to be veeerrrrryyyyyy careful with this. Its really easy to chip teeth off your gears, bend your shifter and even overshift into a gear which happens when you slam it too hard into gear and actually moves the shift plate. No bueno... id only do this on a track and if you have a syncro mesh dont even bother

[pdqgp]

id only do this on a track and if you have a syncro mesh dont even bother

or if you're not driving a car that you don't personally pay for and are testing it for a major magazine with the manufacturer on your side encouraging you to drive it like you hate it. :)