FS-DE Oil System

[MP3racer]

01-02-09 Update: So you will not be required to read through all the posts the following is a synopsis:
The pricing is as follows:
$100 for blueprint service on the oil pump
$130 for external bypass valves (Sorry everyone, the company that makes the PRV had a slight price increase for 2009 so the price went from $125 to $130....I held them to the wall as much as possible and split the increase! I am able to keep the oil pump service at the 2008 price for now....)

If purchasing together I will include modifying the oil pump to work with an external bypass valve!
UPDATE 10-22-09 ANY ORDER IN THE NEXT FEW WEEKS WILL RECEIVE A FREE HAT!!


You should be able to source your own sandwich plates, hoses, and bung for the MBSP or pan.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MP3racer http://static.mazdas247.com/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?p=3768102#post3768102)
The $100 covers:
1.receiving your pump
2.disassembling your pump
3.recording pre-coating specs
4.sending to Swain Tech
5.coating of parts at Swain Tech
6.receiving back from Swain Tech
7.recording post-coating specs
8.reassembly of your pump

Shipping cost back to you is determined by where you are located. You will receive with your pump a copy of the specs.
The current turn-around time is 3 weeks including the time at Swain Tech.

Oil pump part #:


Quote:
Originally Posted by ForceFed http://static.mazdas247.com/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?p=3794552#post3794552)
I do beleive it is this FS01-14-100N

Warning:


Quote:
Originally Posted by MP3racer http://static.mazdas247.com/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?p=3824680#post3824680)
Please be advised!!!!!

Do not send dirty, greasy oil pumps for coating!!! (notcool)

From this time on if a pump is received that requires cleaning prior to disassembly there will be an additional $50 charge!!

Please understand, the coating company would not even accept a dirty pump much less try to coat it! When it comes to engine assembly the cleaner the parts and the surroundings the better the chance for long engine life!!


Thanks Crazee D !!!!!

Well due to the number of requests I see that the first information session will be on what we have learned about the FS-DE oiling system.

For those who are unaware, I wrote an article covering part of this subject in the latest Mazdasport Magazine. Here is a draft.

See below

As you probably already have determined, the oiling system in the FS-DE is marginally sufficient for a street car and desperately insufficient for a race car. One of the main problems is that with sustained rpms the placement of the pressure relief valve in the oil pump causes significant cavitation and further loss of oil pressure. Another major problem is the small size of the oil pan and the subsequent high likelyhood for the pick-up to become "uncovered". Finally, the last major problem is that the rods take their oil supply from the main bearings through pick-ups in the crank.

We have come up with a SYSTEM to help try to DEAL with these problems. Some of these problems are inherent in the design of the motor and would take high dollars to solve. I also stress a system, because simply adding our improved oil pump may help to a point but we have found the SYSTEM has given us much improved engine life (read bearing life)!

Of course, the heart of the sytem is our improved oil pump. Along with it is our externally adjustable oil pressure bypass, a gated increased volume oil pan, an engine block oil filter relocation adapter, and an external oil filter mount. As you can see, with this system you can adjust your oil pressure to the range you need it externally. This will allow you to compensate for several factors including the type and grade of oil you are using and the bearing clearance you are running (to a point).

Here is a pic of the system as installed on our race car.

http://www.msprotege.com/members/MP3racer/mazdaspeedprotege017-1.jpg

Inside the box is the external oil pressure adjuster

[MP3racer]

This is the start......fire away with your questions, opinions, information, etc (keep it clean and on topic please).

Let's see if we can get a good discussion going!!(cool)

[magnumP5]

I've got a few questions. So you'll be offering this system to us regular guys? I don't usually track my car but I do a lot of spirited mountains drives and after reading all the N/A guys blowing their motors this has really got me thinking. I already plan on going with a larger, baffled oil pan in the immediate future but like you said that only helps so much. It's a good thing you mentione the pressure drop over time because I've noticed this in my car but I always thought something was wrong with my engine. I'm also interested in the upgraded pump but I feel the adjustable pressure may be a bit much for street use. Out of sheer curiosity, what kind of pressures do you guys shoot for? Are you running a restrictor on your turbo oil feed line?

[MP3racer]

I've got a few questions. So you'll be offering this system to us regular guys? I don't usually track my car but I do a lot of spirited mountains drives and after reading all the N/A guys blowing their motors this has really got me thinking. I already plan on going with a larger, baffled oil pan in the immediate future but like you said that only helps so much. It's a good thing you mentione the pressure drop over time because I've noticed this in my car but I always thought something was wrong with my engine. I'm also interested in the upgraded pump but I feel the adjustable pressure may be a bit much for street use. Out of sheer curiosity, what kind of pressures do you guys shoot for? Are you running a restrictor on your turbo oil feed line?


Good start on the questions!!(2thumbs)

Yes, a larger baffled oil pan will definitely help but not solve the issue. The external oil pressure adjuster may seem like a lot for the street but it is one of the main components that helps cure some of the oil pressure drop. We have found that the OE oil pressure relief system (prevents pressure spikes (rlaugh)) is one of the main causes of this. The external oil pressure adjuster helps with this problem.

A good rule of thumb with oil pressures is 10 lbs. of oil pressure per 1000 rpm. So if you shoot for at top end of 6500 rpm then the motor should have at least 65 lbs. of oil pressure consistently at this redline.

[magnumP5]

Good start on the questions!!(2thumbs)

Yes, a larger baffled oil pan will definitely help but not solve the issue. The external oil pressure adjuster may seem like a lot for the street but it is one of the main components that helps cure some of the oil pressure drop. We have found that the OE oil pressure relief system (prevents pressure spikes (rlaugh)) is one of the main causes of this. The external oil pressure adjuster helps with this problem.

A good rule of thumb with oil pressures is 10 lbs. of oil pressure per 1000 rpm. So if you shoot for at top end of 6500 rpm then the motor should have at least 65 lbs. of oil pressure consistently at this redline.
So are you offering this as a "kit" per se? Now that you mention the desired pressures I'd actually consider getting the adjustment option - I definitely do not have 65 psi at 6500 RPM. According to my gauge (which is a tad off I think) I can only manage about 50 psi from 3000 RPM and up. But like you mentioned earlier this drops down to like 40 psi or lower after extended periods of driving. I'm still curious if you use an oil restrictor on you feed line. Can ball-bearing turbos take 65 psi of oil pressure?

[J_Naoto]

So are you offering this as a "kit" per se? Now that you mention the desired pressures I'd actually consider getting the adjustment option - I definitely do not have 65 psi at 6500 RPM. According to my gauge (which is a tad off I think) I can only manage about 50 psi from 3000 RPM and up. But like you mentioned earlier this drops down to like 40 psi or lower after extended periods of driving. I'm still curious if you use an oil restrictor on you feed line. Can ball-bearing turbos take 65 psi of oil pressure?

hm i'm interested too. my pressure is like yours but at idle, it drops below 10 psi and i have to add about a quart of oil every 1000 miles.

[MP3racer]

So are you offering this as a "kit" per se? Now that you mention the desired pressures I'd actually consider getting the adjustment option - I definitely do not have 65 psi at 6500 RPM. According to my gauge (which is a tad off I think) I can only manage about 50 psi from 3000 RPM and up. But like you mentioned earlier this drops down to like 40 psi or lower after extended periods of driving. I'm still curious if you use an oil restrictor on you feed line. Can ball-bearing turbos take 65 psi of oil pressure?


Sorry...missed those questions....

We will most likely offer the various parts needed or direct you to where they can be obtained.

We use the OE oil supply line to the turbo and a -10 AN line attached to the OE oil drain from the turbo to a fitting on our oil pan. We do not use any restrictor inline as the OE supply line has already been designed to provide the correct pressure and compensate for higher engine pressures. Sure we see a bit of oil in the intercooler lines but the turbo likes a constant supply of oil as much as the engine does.

Yes, early on in the development process of our race car and the turbo FS-DE race motor I remember seeing the oil pressure fall off to 35 lbs at 6000 rpm at the tail end of a three hour race (wow). Can't say that motor lasted too long.....

[MP3racer]

hm i'm interested too. my pressure is like yours but at idle, it drops below 10 psi and i have to add about a quart of oil every 1000 miles.



Believe it or not the BMW 330 specs it's oil pressure at 7lbs at idle....not saying this is good though

Having to add a quart every 1000 miles is definitely a sign of a problem more likely from a leak or burning it due to poor ring seal or poor valve seals.....would recommend to have it checked

[808MP5]

I want a kit just for the sake of having one. Last motor blew to some oil issues as the catalyst.

[magnumP5]

hm i'm interested too. my pressure is like yours but at idle, it drops below 10 psi and i have to add about a quart of oil every 1000 miles.
LOL, after long and/hard drives my oil pressure gauge is reading a big fat ZERO at idle! This is what makes me believe my gauge is dying because it used not always read this low.

But yeah, I'd definitely be down for a kit sometime down the road. I assume there's going to have to be a GI thread before any of these are made? I'd really like to see some bigger/better pics of the oil pan and pressure control though.

[rednecks_r_us]

I have gone through two naturally aspirated motors. Its time to fix the problem I can't afford to keep replacing my motor every 20 months.

[808MP5]

I want a kit just for the sake of having one. Last motor blew to some oil issues as the catalyst.

[ForceFed]

I am very inteested in this..How quickly can you get me this setup?
My motor is on the Stand now just waitng for the head to come back...Then it re-assembly time a Turbo piping fitment...It would be nice to have this item beforehand.

And I know of Swain-Tech..I did a bit of research on them while building my engine and even though didnt get the time to do it..I wanted to have my pistons done by them.
I almost wish I had now.

[xelderx]

Awesome research and solutions. I'm very happy to read this. I had to put 3 motors in my Protege5 because of oil starvation. The last 1 came even though I had an Accusump installed (that motor did last longer than all the others). I've now got my FS motor mounted in a '94 Protege and it's getting ready to receive some more abuse. I tried very hard to stay on top of my oil levels and safeguard my motor. I'm relieved to see that there might have been an unseen culprit (oil pressure relief valve) that was finally the death of the 3rd motor.

[xelderx]

I would like a little more info on how the external pressure relief valve would plumb into a N/A FS motor. If it's something I can install legally (damn you SCCA) I'll take it and an upgraded oil pump immediately.

[MP3racer]

I'll try to get some better pics of the oil pan and the external adjuster up in the next few days.

Basically, we use an oil filter relocation adapter at the block, oil line from it to the adjuster, then line from the adjuster to the remote oil filter and another line from the remote oil filter back to the relocation adapter at the block. There is another line that is plumbed from the external adjuster into the pan that is the new bypass.

Flow is most important here. You can use the cheap relocation adapters and remote oil filter housings but they will decrease the efficiency of the system.
If you need more detail to determine legality with SCCA let me know....

[ForceFed]

Mine is strictly for Street..Please PM me pricing so I can see if I am even interested in this before I put my engine back together.

Time is of the essence for me..and I know swain-tech will take about 10 days there and back.
LMK

[Crazee D]

Very interested in finding out the availability timeframes and costs for kit and components (a la carte).

Are any pieces going to be available soon?

[blackdragon11]

I am also very very interested in this. I dont want to replace yet another motor.

[magnumP5]

I'll try to get some better pics of the oil pan and the external adjuster up in the next few days.

Basically, we use an oil filter relocation adapter at the block, oil line from it to the adjuster, then line from the adjuster to the remote oil filter and another line from the remote oil filter back to the relocation adapter at the block. There is another line that is plumbed from the external adjuster into the pan that is the new bypass.

Flow is most important here. You can use the cheap relocation adapters and remote oil filter housings but they will decrease the efficiency of the system.
If you need more detail to determine legality with SCCA let me know....
So I assume this utilizes as sandwich plate of some description? Do you guys also run an oil cooler, if so, is it air or water cooled? I'm curious because I want to run an oil cooler off a sandwich plate on the back of the block and I'm wondering if this might get in the way or vice versa. I also need two ports for oil temperature and oil pressure - man I'm running out of places to put things!

[Speed3.5]

subb'n and good to know there's solution to this particular issue

keep us updated please

[rednecks_r_us]

My motor is getting pulled in the very near future (this weekend) so I'm also intrested in pricing and availability.

[jimmysuite]

also interested in pricing and availability of the oil pump and pressure regulator. (I already have a remote oil filter on the car)

[i12drivemyMP5]

You have my full attention. Subbing for more info as others are.

[Tom03es]

According to my gauge (which is a tad off I think) I can only manage about 50 psi from 3000 RPM and up. But like you mentioned earlier this drops down to like 40 psi or lower after extended periods of driving.

WOW! My gauge reads upwards of 70 psi at high RPM.

.... but at idle, it drops below 10 psi.....

EEK! With a fully warmed up engine at idle, my pressure gauge reads something like 20 psi.

I have a Greedy sandwich plate adapter and Autometer Ultra-Lite gauges.

I've been eyeing up an Accusump setup for the passed couple of days now.

[magnumP5]

Here it goes - the mass "interest" in something new that will be nonexistent as soon as the actual buying process starts. I've seen it happen way too much on these forums... Anyhow, I'm definitely interested and am patiently waiting for more pics. I'm trying to figure out how to make this work with an air-cooled oil cooler and all the oil gauges I plan on running. And I was trying to reduce the number of hoses under my hood...

[magnumP5]

WOW! My gauge reads upwards of 70 psi at high RPM.



EEK! With a fully warmed up engine at idle, my pressure gauge reads something like 20 psi.

I have a Greedy sandwich plate adapter and Autometer Ultra-Lite gauges.

I've been eyeing up an Accusump setup for the passed couple of days now.
I think most of it is due to the fact I'm running the pressure sensor inline with my oil feed line. You know - moving fluid causes low pressure over orafices and such so that is probably the sourse of a little of my problem. I also don't think the autometer gauge I have (ultra-lite, short sweep) is of very high quality. Not knocking Autometer but I bet if I had the full sweep gauge it'd be better. I do plan on running a sandwich plate in the future with AEM oil pressure and temperature gauges as well as provisions for an oil cooler.

[xelderx]

I'll try to get some better pics of the oil pan and the external adjuster up in the next few days.

Basically, we use an oil filter relocation adapter at the block, oil line from it to the adjuster, then line from the adjuster to the remote oil filter and another line from the remote oil filter back to the relocation adapter at the block. There is another line that is plumbed from the external adjuster into the pan that is the new bypass.

Flow is most important here. You can use the cheap relocation adapters and remote oil filter housings but they will decrease the efficiency of the system.
If you need more detail to determine legality with SCCA let me know....

Sounds OK. The SCCA rules I'm working with allow replacement of the Oil pan to just about anything you want and relocating of the filter. I should be able to make it work. If I can get a sandwich plate that keeps the oil filter in the stock location and has 2 ports for feed/return is that sufficient? I'm not wanting to add any unnecessary weight.

[Tom03es]

Has anyone checked the workshop manual for oil pump removal? One line item that caught my attention: "remove engine and transaxle". Can it be done still in the car? If not, this just got more complicated for the average wrench turner.

[TheMAN]

I'll try to get some better pics of the oil pan and the external adjuster up in the next few days.

Basically, we use an oil filter relocation adapter at the block, oil line from it to the adjuster, then line from the adjuster to the remote oil filter and another line from the remote oil filter back to the relocation adapter at the block. There is another line that is plumbed from the external adjuster into the pan that is the new bypass.

Flow is most important here. You can use the cheap relocation adapters and remote oil filter housings but they will decrease the efficiency of the system.
If you need more detail to determine legality with SCCA let me know....
I know the benefits of having an externally relocated oil filter, so no debating there... however, is there any possible way to engineer a less convoluted solution for "street use"? Race cars have the luxury of removing various stock shit and making a lot more room in the engine bay, but for us street vehicles, our engine bays are pretty cramped, especially after installing a turbo... so creating a "lesser" system that is "good enough" by either having a preset pressure or more difficult to adjust valve that doesn't take up a lot of room with all these oil lines is probably more desirable for us normal people (like me)

also by doing this (if possible), it could possibly be more marketable to the masses as a simpler to install kit and will probably be cheaper... so you might be able to sell a shit load of these kits

[TheMAN]

Has anyone checked the workshop manual for oil pump removal? One line item that caught my attention: "remove engine and transaxle". Can it be done still in the car? If not, this just got more complicated for the average wrench turner.
timing belt must be removed... oil pan must be removed and so does the MBSP ("upper oil pan block")... it's basically a 5 hour job assuming the tranny doesn't have to be removed since there's 2 10mm bolts on the MBSP that installs into the engine's rear cover (where the rear main seal is)

[bazooka joe]

(ughdance) yikes! i'm with the man on this one.....

[magnumP5]

No doubt it would be a huge job to install but for some of us like myself who will going with a completely new engine in the future it doesn't seem that bad.

[i12drivemyMP5]

Woo, it'd have to be something like replacing the whole motor before tackling this. This'll have to stay in the "if & while the motor's already out" category for me to do it or it would feel like this - (spank).

[MP3racer]

So I assume this utilizes as sandwich plate of some description? Do you guys also run an oil cooler, if so, is it air or water cooled? I'm curious because I want to run an oil cooler off a sandwich plate on the back of the block and I'm wondering if this might get in the way or vice versa. I also need two ports for oil temperature and oil pressure - man I'm running out of places to put things!


We use a relocation adapter rather than a sandwich plate. A sandwich plate is designed to allow the use of the OE oil filter on the back side with two ports coming off at a 90 degree angle. For our race motors (and any performance motor) the OE size oil filter is woefully inadequite. Also, making a 90 degree bend in that short of a distance creates to much resistance to flow. Therefore, we use the adapter shown in the pic below. (BTW, the material wrapped around it is a precaution for any possible leaks. It is a flame retardant absorption material.) It has straight through flow and we use a remote filter mount to allow use of a much larger filter. You can get a remote filter housing with addition ports for your sensors.

In regards to oil cooling, yes we do run a cooler and it is an oil to water cooler or a "heat exchanger". We did not go with an air to oil cooler because with the large intercooler out front there is no more "clean" air to make an air to oil cooler effective and we did not want to decrease the effectiveness of the intercooler.

I hear you on running out of room in the engine bay!!

Thanks for your great questions!(2thumbs)

Tom

[magnumP5]

Ok, I follow that. I wonder if it would be possible to run a sandwhich plate underneath that for some pressure/temp senders? Man I'm just trying visualize everything. This kit is great but I just wouldn't know where to put my oil pressure/temperature senders with this in place. The temperature sensor can go anywhere as oil flow really won't mess with its reading but the pressure sender needs to be in a "dead end" like the stocker. I suppose an oil-to-air intercooler could always just be run inline with any of the braided steel lines as well as the temperature sender.

[MP3racer]

I know the benefits of having an externally relocated oil filter, so no debating there... however, is there any possible way to engineer a less convoluted solution for "street use"? Race cars have the luxury of removing various stock shit and making a lot more room in the engine bay, but for us street vehicles, our engine bays are pretty cramped, especially after installing a turbo... so creating a "lesser" system that is "good enough" by either having a preset pressure or more difficult to adjust valve that doesn't take up a lot of room with all these oil lines is probably more desirable for us normal people (like me)

also by doing this (if possible), it could possibly be more marketable to the masses as a simpler to install kit and will probably be cheaper... so you might be able to sell a shit load of these kits

I definitely hear you on a less complicated kit would be more marketable! However, the system we developed was done solely to develop the FS-DE for racing. Along the way, on this forum I saw many of the "street" guys were experiencing very similar problems. I wrote the article to show that we have been able to mask some of the short-comings of the OE oiling system on our race motors. I would love to have the time and money to devote to developing a simpler system for the street but that is not in the cards for the short term, especially with the race season growing ever closer!

With that said, I am willing to produce some of the "blue-printed" oil pumps for the forum members. I can also help in aquiring the various other parts of our system (either selling or pointing in the right direction). If you notice in the previously posted picture of our engine bay, we haven't removed that much and this system (especially the external adjuster) does not take up that much room.

But please realize we have only tested this system on our race motors which have specific main/rod bearing tolerances matched to our oil brand and weight. We cannot gaurantee the same results on everyones motor due to the extreme amount of variables.....
Hopefully, in the future, if there is enough interest we might be able to do some "street" testing on a stock MSP we have.....

[MP3racer]

Ok, I follow that. I wonder if it would be possible to run a sandwhich plate underneath that for some pressure/temp senders? Man I'm just trying visualize everything. This kit is great but I just wouldn't know where to put my oil pressure/temperature senders with this in place. The temperature sensor can go anywhere as oil flow really won't mess with its reading but the pressure sender needs to be in a "dead end" like the stocker. I suppose an oil-to-air intercooler could always just be run inline with any of the braided steel lines as well as the temperature sender.

I wouldn't run anymore than either the sandwich plate or the relocation adapter. Stacking them is just asking for a leak! You may be able to tap the relocation adapter or a sandwich plate for an additional sensor mount...

I read an article the other day by one of the NASCAR engineers that the factory oil pressure sending unit position is always the best place to get a good reading so I would stay with it there. If you decide to run a remote oil filter usually they have provisions for sensors built-in.

We run the oil lines out of the adjuster into the cooler. Out of the cooler to the filter and out of the filter back to the motor. This way we know the motor is always getting good filtered oil.

[MP3racer]

One simplification to "the system" I have been thinking of running on the race car is the recently available combo oil filter mounts with built-in pressure adjusters. The cost is about the same as the two separate units but for space savings it might be worth looking at!!!

http://www.chamberssportscards.com/MVC-003c291.JPG (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&viewitem=&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fsearch.ebay.com%3A80%2Fsearch%2Fse arch.dll%3Fsofocus%3Dbs%26sbrftog%3D1%26dfsp%3D1%2 6from%3DR40%26_trksid%3Dm37%26satitle%3D2502256072 69%26sacat%3D-1%2526catref%2#ebayphotohosting)

[TheMAN]

I definitely hear you on a less complicated kit would be more marketable! However, the system we developed was done solely to develop the FS-DE for racing. Along the way, on this forum I saw many of the "street" guys were experiencing very similar problems. I wrote the article to show that we have been able to mask some of the short-comings of the OE oiling system on our race motors. I would love to have the time and money to devote to developing a simpler system for the street but that is not in the cards for the short term, especially with the race season growing ever closer!

With that said, I am willing to produce some of the "blue-printed" oil pumps for the forum members. I can also help in aquiring the various other parts of our system (either selling or pointing in the right direction). If you notice in the previously posted picture of our engine bay, we haven't removed that much and this system (especially the external adjuster) does not take up that much room.

But please realize we have only tested this system on our race motors which have specific main/rod bearing tolerances matched to our oil brand and weight. We cannot gaurantee the same results on everyones motor due to the extreme amount of variables.....
Hopefully, in the future, if there is enough interest we might be able to do some "street" testing on a stock MSP we have.....
well of course... your race car is the whole reason why this thread exists...
one thing I forgot to look at last night as for interchangable OEM oil pressure relief valve springs... I have a feeling there are springs from a different mazda motor's oil pump will fit and raise pressure for us as a quick and dirty bandaid fix... also it is interesting to note that back in the late 80s and early 90s, MazdaSpeed used to sell racing oil pumps for the B6-T, B6-ZE, and BP-ZE.... most possibly they had tighter tollerances but they definatley had a higher pressure spring

I was going to look through my shop manuals last night to see which engine had the highest pressure spec and check with the parts catalogs also to see if the parts were interchangable but I got busy with other things.... I'll see about checking this shit over the weekend


one thing you may want to think about doing is designing and manufacturing a pressure control adapter that mounts where the oil filter/cooler is and have the oil filter sit on top of it... I believe it's totally possible to have a "pressure control block" that doesn't require an oil filter relocate... with this idea, it is possible to market this product for other mazdas also, such as the miata, rotary cars, and the K-series engines as long as it is a compact package as all of these mazdas have one thing in common... they use the same oil filter size (the K-series uses a taller filter).... the only thing that makes this mod complicated is having to fuck with the pressure relief valve in the oil pump... there's not any way around this...

so just a thought

[magnumP5]

I wouldn't run anymore than either the sandwich plate or the relocation adapter. Stacking them is just asking for a leak! You may be able to tap the relocation adapter or a sandwich plate for an additional sensor mount...

I read an article the other day by one of the NASCAR engineers that the factory oil pressure sending unit position is always the best place to get a good reading so I would stay with it there. If you decide to run a remote oil filter usually they have provisions for sensors built-in.

We run the oil lines out of the adjuster into the cooler. Out of the cooler to the filter and out of the filter back to the motor. This way we know the motor is always getting good filtered oil.
Yep, that's what I was thinking. Now that I think about it I could probably leave my pressure sender where it is now (but put it after the tee for the oil feed so oil dead-ends into it) my only fear is that the pressure sender is heavy and I've already had one tee crack due to it's weight in that position (that's why I have it before the tee - less moment). I didn't even think about tapping the relocation block - not a bad idea. IIRC it's only a 1/8 NPT thread so the hole woudn't have to be that large. This is definitely looking good and it definitely something I would want on my built motor to make sure everything is getting the oil it needs.

[Speed3.5]

We use a relocation adapter rather than a sandwich plate. A sandwich plate is designed to allow the use of the OE oil filter on the back side with two ports coming off at a 90 degree angle. For our race motors (and any performance motor) the OE size oil filter is woefully inadequite. Also, making a 90 degree bend in that short of a distance creates to much resistance to flow. Therefore, we use the adapter shown in the pic below. (BTW, the material wrapped around it is a precaution for any possible leaks. It is a flame retardant absorption material.) It has straight through flow and we use a remote filter mount to allow use of a much larger filter. You can get a remote filter housing with addition ports for your sensors.

In regards to oil cooling, yes we do run a cooler and it is an oil to water cooler or a "heat exchanger". We did not go with an air to oil cooler because with the large intercooler out front there is no more "clean" air to make an air to oil cooler effective and we did not want to decrease the effectiveness of the intercooler.

I hear you on running out of room in the engine bay!!

Thanks for your great questions!(2thumbs)

Tom

-Looking at the pic of relocated filter, i doubt if anyone is capable of doing that to the block unless done at the shop, which will require to pull the engine out and so on.
(why is the turbo oil inlet tapped ?)
-Second what about the oil passages/path, don't they need to be bored to bigger ones ??
-A smaller version of your "system" could be achieved so "street" guys can put it in w/o a big hassle and might be a bit more affordable as well (shady)

Is the oil cooler necessary in theory speaking everything is needed but only in "race" those things really apply and are sufficiently used unless some members here live in deserts of Arizona or such extremely hot places.

I mean the most whp that is street-driven so far is very very few around 400 whp proteges but the majority is under that and even less.
I guess you can leave that part to the end user of the "system".

As far as i can tell we "street" users don't necessary need the bigger oil filter at all or do we ?

[rednecks_r_us]

I live in northern AZ and most of my roads are in the twisty's. My car is always on a road course. High RPMs in tight corners are the normal 90% of my travel.

So with the constant back and forth I need something that will keep my oil pressure up in the corners. My Racrive header already rubs on my stock oil pan so I don't think I could fit an AWR pan in there. I need a baffled stock oil pan.

Attached are some of the roads I travel on a regular basis.

[Kooldino]

+1 on a more marketable system.

[MazdaSpeeder]

I need a baffled stock oil pan.



+1! I don't know how I would fit an AWR oil pan either...and those roads sure do look fun!

[MP3racer]

OK....I have thought about the "streetable" option to the system and this is an option I have come up with......


To utilize an oil filter sandwich plate so that you don't need to find a place to relocate the filter. Oil line coming off the sandwich plate to an external adjuster that can be mounted on the firewall right behind and above where the filter is on the engine. This will keep the lines short and the adjuster accessible. An oil line will come from the adjuster back to the sandwich plate. Another line will need to come back to the pan or preferably back to a fitting welded to the oil pan girdle (the aluminum plate between the engine block and the pan. This last oil line is the bypass return line.
Of course the system would also include a DBR blueprinted oil pump!

Let me know what you guys think of this system....

It is basically the same as the system we have used on the race car but definitely not tested, so I won't be able to guarantee any results.....

[magnumP5]

Just so I'm following this correctly, so us turbo guys would need two taps in the oil pan? I see what you're saying for the need of a bypass but that just seems weird. I'd definitely at least be down for a better oil pump and the better oil pan. Still sort of unsure about the pressure regulation thing. Maybe I'm just visualizing it wrong. Can you make some sort of quick schematic to show how/where everything works/goes?

[ForceFed]

Price man..WOrk with me here..I am ready to be the first to use this on the street.
The timing couldn't be more perfect.
Let's make this happen.

[MP3racer]

Just so I'm following this correctly, so us turbo guys would need two taps in the oil pan? I see what you're saying for the need of a bypass but that just seems weird. I'd definitely at least be down for a better oil pump and the better oil pan. Still sort of unsure about the pressure regulation thing. Maybe I'm just visualizing it wrong. Can you make some sort of quick schematic to show how/where everything works/goes?


Yes, for the turbo as on our race car you would need two fittings on the oil pan. On our race motors we have one in the front (turbo side) for the turbo drain back and one on the rear (intake side) for the bypass return.

I guess I haven't explained it well enough.....The main reason we have found for the degredation of oil pressure over time with consistent hard use of the motor is due to the factory bypass regulator causing cavitation inside the pump. What we have done on our race motors is render this inoperative and replace it with a bypass valve externally. This external bypass valve is adjustable as well.

Does this make sense????

[avarela86]

WOW...I just found this. I read the article and was REALLY interested as I am running an after market oil pump gears. I bought them a while back from a member. Supposed to send 15% more oil Vol. But I was interested in what you guys would be offering. This kit seems very useful. I was only thinking about an OIL cooler (air cooler) but if this will help with the life of the engine im interested in knowing more. Props to DocB....

[ForceFed]

Does this make sense????All but how you are actually DIsabling or bypassing the OEM bypass?

[MP3racer]

Price man..WOrk with me here..I am ready to be the first to use this on the street.
The timing couldn't be more perfect.
Let's make this happen.

To start, the price for a DBR "blue printed" oil pump will be $100 (done on your oil pump). This will include disassembly of the pump, recording of original specs, coating of needed parts, recording of new specs, and reassembly of the pump. You will get a copy of the before and after specs.
If needed I can supply the oil pump. I will need to get a price from Mazda on them.
As an added bonus, for the first few orders I will also include the needed labor/parts to change over the pump to be ready for an external adjuster if you would like this done.

Other parts you would need.....
External adjuster $125

You supply the sandwich plate and the hoses

You will also need to get a fitting added to the aluminum engine girdle. This shouldn't be too difficult. If needed I can look into sources here locally. Basically you just need someone who can weld aluminum.

[MP3racer]

All but how you are actually DIsabling or bypassing the OEM bypass?



This is where the MAGIC lies......(wink)

[magnumP5]

That's actually not too bad of a price for the oil pump. Of course I would have to find one and I don't know how expensive they are becauce I can't likely drive around without one, LOL! I still think the adjustability would be too much for me, not to mention how complicated it would make things. Definitely interested in the pump and pan though. Any pics of the pan yet?

[cityracer]

I am having similar pressure issues, and have recently been looking into shimming my oil pump's prv.

I am running an air to air oil cooler with a remote oil filter and thermostatic valve. With the added turbo systems oil lines, max pressure barely is 50psi and drops all the way down to 13ish at idle. HLA tic is now an issue, and I hate that noise....

I'm curious if you took readings with just the oil pump prv shimmed closed with out the pressure regulator attached? I just want to get my pressure back to what it should be if I had not added the cooler/turbo system...

[MP3racer]

I am having similar pressure issues, and have recently been looking into shimming my oil pump's prv.

I am running an air to air oil cooler with a remote oil filter and thermostatic valve. With the added turbo systems oil lines, max pressure barely is 50psi and drops all the way down to 13ish at idle. HLA tic is now an issue, and I hate that noise....

I'm curious if you took readings with just the oil pump prv shimmed closed with out the pressure regulator attached? I just want to get my pressure back to what it should be if I had not added the cooler/turbo system...

Shimming the pressure relief valve (bypass valve) to get more oil pressure is a trick that's been around for a long time. We tried this early on with disastrous (engine = BOOM) results. The pressure increase was minimal no matter how much we shimmed the spring. The other side was that even with the shimming of the spring and the initial slight increase in pressure, the oil pressure dropped off to the disastrously low numbers with consistent hard use of the motor.....

[cityracer]

how difficult would it be to integrate this into an existing oil cooling system?

edit: nvr mind, didn't read the above post. so I just need the pump, prv, and a fitting welded to my engine girdle...

[MP3racer]

how difficult would it be to integrate this into an existing oil cooling system?


It seems like the biggest issue is changing the oil pump. I would think this would be best done while the engine is out although anything's possible....(iagree)

[ForceFed]

This is where the MAGIC lies......(wink)So if i pony up the penny for the pump and other items..you get me this info...I assume because I actually have to do it...or are you disabling it when I send you my pump?
(ugh)

Either way...do you have links to the things I ned to buy....I assume and Sanwich adapter with two eternal ports would work for the plate?
I can modify the MSBP if needed or my oil pan....and what do you suggest for a pan.

I would also need a filter relocatin kit as well correct?

I have no idea where to source this stuff or where I am loking hence asking for links to what I should buy or a more complete package put together.

LMK

[MP3racer]

So if i pony up the penny for the pump and other items..you get me this info...I assume because I actually have to do it...or are you disabling it when I send you my pump?
(ugh)

Either way...do you have links to the things I ned to buy....I assume and Sanwich adapter with two eternal ports would work for the plate?
I can modify the MSBP if needed or my oil pan....and what do you suggest for a pan.

I would also need a filter relocatin kit as well correct?

I have no idea where to source this stuff or where I am loking hence asking for links to what I should buy or a more complete package put together.

LMK


Yes, I will disable the factory presure relief bypass valve when I go through your pump.

As for the other stuff, this adaptation of the system we use on the race car is just something I came up with in response to all the requests for a more "streetable" setup. I can get the external bypass valve. There are many sources for sandwich plates so I assume you can get one. If you use a sandwich plate the oil filter screws onto the back of it so you won't need a filter mount/relocation kit. Also, you will need some hoses to hook all this up.

I haven't put a "kit" together since this is something that evolved over the past couple days. I can get you links for more of the stuff if needed.

BTW, proper oiling/engine life is determined by many other factors such as engine bearings, bearing clearance, oil weight, etc.!!

[ForceFed]

Yeah..I totally wasn't thinking when I typed in about the "Sandwich" plate and then relocating the filter....DOH!

And I am Running Stock Bearings....From Mazda....Will be running Mobil 1 syn after break in and everything better be in specs on clearance.

I didnt assemble the motor..I had a reputable Shop in town do that along with the neccessary machine work.

SO we would be Bypassing the PRV in the pump completely....Running the oil externally through a PRV and then back to the filter as the required pressure is met.
Correct?

SO in essences..a plate..the PRV..the oil pump...and some lines and where does the fitting in the MBSP come into play here.....?

A diagram of whats going to take place would greatly help.

I am all about this and I am willing to be the first "street" guy in on this....So lets work this out.

I have a pump here just sitting I was going to check tolerances on, but it does have 80K on it..so I might just spring for a new one for this deal.

Explain the routing on this again...I am following everything but where the MBSP comes into play here?

[MP3racer]

Yeah..I totally wasn't thinking when I typed in about the "Sandwich" plate and then relocating the filter....DOH!

And I am Running Stock Bearings....From Mazda....Will be running Mobil 1 syn after break in and everything better be in specs on clearance.

I didnt assemble the motor..I had a reputable Shop in town do that along with the neccessary machine work.

SO we would be Bypassing the PRV in the pump completely....Running the oil externally through a PRV and then back to the filter as the required pressure is met.
Correct?

SO in essences..a plate..the PRV..the oil pump...and some lines and where does the fitting in the MBSP come into play here.....?

A diagram of whats going to take place would greatly help.

I am all about this and I am willing to be the first "street" guy in on this....So lets work this out.

I have a pump here just sitting I was going to check tolerances on, but it does have 80K on it..so I might just spring for a new one for this deal.

Explain the routing on this again...I am following everything but where the MBSP comes into play here?


The pressure relief valve whether it is the factory one or the external one as we use needs to bleed off pressure to prevent spikes/over-pressuring the system. This bleed off needs to go somewhere. It is released internally in the factory relief valve. When you use an external valve it has a port that needs to be able to dump the pressure. This is where the port on the MBSP comes in. Therefore you would need to hook up a hose from this port on the external relief valve to a fitting on the MBSP. I recommend the MBSP because like the drain hose on the turbo you want unimpeded flow. A port on the pan will be covered by oil unless it is built with a diverter plate around it (lots of work). The oil level is usually not as high as the MBSP so it should allow the needed unimpeded flow....

[ForceFed]

Agh..O iforgot about the oil we will be bypassing.
Very simple thing for me to miss.
I see the whole picture now...I do ..I do. (yes)

So...Let me see....

I would need to source the following:

Oil Filter Sanwich plate with at least 1 External line (two prefferred for me for an oil feed for my turbo)
Lines to the PRV from the Plate, From the PRV to the Oil pan OR MBSP
Fitting for the MBSP or Oil Pan
An oil pump supplied to youYou would supply :

Changing the oil pump and having ST coat it, Checking it and sending it back
a PRV valveIs this a correct list of needed items here?

[MP3racer]

Agh..O iforgot about the oil we will be bypassing.
Very simple thing for me to miss.
I see the whole picture now...I do ..I do. (yes)

So...Let me see....

I would need to source the following:

Oil Filter Sanwich plate with at least 1 External line (two prefferred for me for an oil feed for my turbo)
Lines to the PRV from the Plate, From the PRV to the Oil pan OR MBSP
Fitting for the MBSP or Oil Pan
An oil pump supplied to youYou would supply :

Changing the oil pump and having ST coat it, Checking it and sending it back
a PRV valveIs this a correct list of needed items here?

You are very close.....

The sandwich plate would need two lines. One out and one in. The external PRV will have three ports on it: oil in, oil out, and bypass oil. You will have a hose from the sandwich plate to the external PRV, a line out of the external PRV back to the sandwich plate, and a line from the bypass port on the external PRV to the MBSP.

Otherwise, it looks like you have it covered.

I would like to look into the sandwich plates a bit more to make sure the flow is not too impeded before I am okay with this. I'll try to search a bit later online and I will let you know....

Also, I think the best place to source the oil for the turbo is where the factory did with a "t" fitting at the sensor mount...

[jhillzoom]

Would it do any good to just do the pump on an N/A motor? I don’t race my car but do occasionally like to drive the heck out of it and don’t want to join the Boom…Boom club due to oil starvation.

[magnumP5]

As a preventative measure it'd probably be good in any Protege. You're not going to see any sort of performance increase but you'll have the peace of mine knowing your engine will not blow going around a corner, which is always a good thing :)

I'm still interested in the upgraded pump and pan. I'm not sure if I could get everything else to work with what I want to do. I guess I could find a sandwich plate with 4 ports (one in, one out, and two sensor ports) I could do something but then there's the issue of routing the oil cooler (which I guess could be run either before or after the pressure thing). Well, maybe this could work...

[MP3racer]

As a preventative measure it'd probably be good in any Protege. You're not going to see any sort of performance increase but you'll have the peace of mine knowing your engine will not blow going around a corner, which is always a good thing :)

I'm still interested in the upgraded pump and pan. I'm not sure if I could get everything else to work with what I want to do. I guess I could find a sandwich plate with 4 ports (one in, one out, and two sensor ports) I could do something but then there's the issue of routing the oil cooler (which I guess could be run either before or after the pressure thing). Well, maybe this could work...


The pan is something that we have built for ourselves but didn't really have an interest in producing since it is so labor intensive. I could check with our fabricator to see what type of turn around time and official price he would need. I would expect though that the pan will be in the neighborhood of $750-$800.

Do you really need the oil cooler? Do you know what oil temps you have been running?

If you are thinking of going with the external PRV then there are fittings that you can plumb in one of the lines that have ports for sensors.

Would it do any good to just do the pump on an N/A motor? I don’t race my car but do occasionally like to drive the heck out of it and don’t want to join the Boom…Boom club due to oil starvation.

The DBR blueprinted pump is an improvement over the standard pump in ability to provide pressure. However, if you still use the stock PRV in the pump you will still be prone to falling oil pressures with sustained use of the motor.

[magnumP5]

The pan is something that we have built for ourselves but didn't really have an interest in producing since it is so labor intensive. I could check with our fabricator to see what type of turn around time and official price he would need. I would expect though that the pan will be in the neighborhood of $750-$800.

Do you really need the oil cooler? Do you know what oil temps you have been running?

If you are thinking of going with the external PRV then there are fittings that you can plumb in one of the lines that have ports for sensors.
Ah I see, I can still always go with the AWR pan but I was curious at to what your design was. As for the oil cooler, I would love to actually take my car to a track someday such as VIR and IIRC, they require oil coolers on turbocharged cars or something like that. About 10 times a year currently I also do mountain "fun runs" which I won't get into because of forum rules but I will say that some have lasted upwards of three hours. The near constant high-RPM driving for long periods of time makes me think I need an oil cooler. I doesn't have to be huge, just something over not having any at all. Hell, the stock MSPs have a dinky little water to oil cooler just beneath the filter. Good to know about the external PRV though.

[MP3racer]

Ah I see, I can still always go with the AWR pan but I was curious at to what your design was. As for the oil cooler, I would love to actually take my car to a track someday such as VIR and IIRC, they require oil coolers on turbocharged cars or something like that. About 10 times a year currently I also do mountain "fun runs" which I won't get into because of forum rules but I will say that some have lasted upwards of three hours. The near constant high-RPM driving for long periods of time makes me think I need an oil cooler. I doesn't have to be huge, just something over not having any at all. Hell, the stock MSPs have a dinky little water to oil cooler just beneath the filter. Good to know about the external PRV though.


The AWR pan is decent but doesn't have any gates as far as I know.

A cooler would help in your situation. Actually, water to oil coolers are quite effective. I'm not familiar with the one from the MSP but may be an option. Would decrease the routing of lines. Otherwise, you would route your lines from the external PRV to the oil cooler, out of of the cooler back to the block. Basically placing it inline with the rest of the "stuff".

[ForceFed]

Dude.....All I am waitng for is some numbers in my PM box.
I told you..Lets do this...I will be the Street "Guinea pig".
Everything is apart right now...so the install will be fairl easy for me.

[MP3racer]

Dude.....All I am waitng for is some numbers in my PM box.
I told you..Lets do this...I will be the Street "Guinea pig".
Everything is apart right now...so the install will be fairl easy for me.


What numbers do you need? The pump would be $100 plus your pump or I will check with Mazda on a new pump on Monday. The external PRV's are $125. Can you handle the rest? Do you need me to look into getting a fitting welded onto the MBSP?

[ForceFed]

Oh no..Thats fine..I never saw a price on the PRV..thats what I was waiting for.
Sorry man.
I can handle the welding....and sourcing a sandwich plate...Let me see what I can come up with now.
Thanks
Sorry.

[magnumP5]

The AWR pan is decent but doesn't have any gates as far as I know.

A cooler would help in your situation. Actually, water to oil coolers are quite effective. I'm not familiar with the one from the MSP but may be an option. Would decrease the routing of lines. Otherwise, you would route your lines from the external PRV to the oil cooler, out of of the cooler back to the block. Basically placing it inline with the rest of the "stuff".
The AWR pan is large and has baffles - I'm not certain on what 'gates' are so you'd have explain that one. As far as I know the MSP oil coolers are not available anymore and it would require getting a longer threaded stud for the oil filter because the cooler sits under the oil filter like a sandwich plate - which further causes problems. I'm still planning on a small air to oil mounted in front of the radiator or possibly a water to oil somewhere behind the block because I have the provision for the coolant supply, just not the coolant.

[MP3racer]

Oh no..Thats fine..I never saw a price on the PRV..thats what I was waiting for.
Sorry man.
I can handle the welding....and sourcing a sandwich plate...Let me see what I can come up with now.
Thanks
Sorry.


BTW...checked - oil pump from mazda around $125 LMK (would take 5 working days to get here)

[MP3racer]

The AWR pan is large and has baffles - I'm not certain on what 'gates' are so you'd have explain that one. As far as I know the MSP oil coolers are not available anymore and it would require getting a longer threaded stud for the oil filter because the cooler sits under the oil filter like a sandwich plate - which further causes problems. I'm still planning on a small air to oil mounted in front of the radiator or possibly a water to oil somewhere behind the block because I have the provision for the coolant supply, just not the coolant.

Yes, I have seen an AWR pan (or one of their versions). It has a baffle plate below the main bearing caps to prevent oil splash but does not have any box with trap doors around the oil pick-up to prevent it from getting uncovered. Again, may be good enough for street????

You can run a cooler infront of the radiator but if your car is turbo'd you may already have a FMIC, radiator, and power steering cooler out front (besides an A/C condensor if you have that too). The "competition" for the cooling airstream starts to get strained and all suffer.

Also, running the cooler out front creates some long hoses to plumb it in.

Not saying that is not the way to go for you. Just pointing out some issues you may want to consider....

Welcome to the problems we had in designing the race car!

[jimmysuite]

I Wish this conversation would have started happening about a month ago. My engine is already put back together and going in the car this week.

Would an Accusump help the our oil pressure drop at high rpms or would it be a waste of money? The reason I ask is I am not going to be taking apart the motor again anytime soon and would like more peace of mind without a total rebuild. I remember docB that you mentioned something about a dry sump system. Can you elaborate on that?

Happy Easter!

[MP3racer]

I Wish this conversation would have started happening about a month ago. My engine is already put back together and going in the car this week.

Would an Accusump help the our oil pressure drop at high rpms or would it be a waste of money? The reason I ask is I am not going to be taking apart the motor again anytime soon and would like more peace of mind without a total rebuild. I remember docB that you mentioned something about a dry sump system. Can you elaborate on that?

Happy Easter!

An Accusump will help some but is really designed for single occurances of low oil pressure rather than the continuous degredation in oil pressure we have seen.

[MP3racer]

Here is a pic of our external pressure relief valve....

The size is about 1.5" X 4.5" without the fittings

[03.5MSP]

Good thing I haven't built my engine yet. When I do decide to get it done im going to go with a dry sump system, because I have no intentions on building my engine twice, so im going to take all the precautionary measures the first time. Im glad this thread came up, it helps all of us learn about some of the FSDE shortcomings. thanks DocB

[MP3racer]

I remember docB that you mentioned something about a dry sump system. Can you elaborate on that?


The dry sump system is a whole different animal. Now you are getting into real high dollar racing systems definitely not designed for "street" use. The pump alone for a dry sump is in the $350 range! Then you need a special pan, tons of AN lines, a sump tank, a place to mount the sump tank (like in the trunk as the World Challenge cars did), etc. I can elaborate on their use but I don't think they are the correct application here....

[magnumP5]

Yes, I have seen an AWR pan (or one of their versions). It has a baffle plate below the main bearing caps to prevent oil splash but does not have any box with trap doors around the oil pick-up to prevent it from getting uncovered. Again, may be good enough for street????
Ok I follow that. Another reason I am interested in your pan :) Got any pics of one or is it 'top secret' I'm not shooting for monstrous power with my built but I'd like 300 whp with a very reliable motor. Because of this I could justify spending more and a better oil pan. I assume yours also is higher capacity?

You can run a cooler infront of the radiator but if your car is turbo'd you may already have a FMIC, radiator, and power steering cooler out front (besides an A/C condensor if you have that too). The "competition" for the cooling airstream starts to get strained and all suffer.

Also, running the cooler out front creates some long hoses to plumb it in.

Not saying that is not the way to go for you. Just pointing out some issues you may want to consider....

Welcome to the problems we had in designing the race car!
Yeah those are exactly the things I am trying to work around - especially the long lines. I don't need anymore lines running around the engine bay! I'm going to start looking into water cooling as I have the provision for a water outlet but the return is something I'd have to figure out. I'm trying to find how the MSP's stock system works but I can't really find any information on the cooler at all. That would definitely be easier and something I could simply mount to the firewall.

[avarela86]

I am intersted as well and would like to know about the kit as well if you where to mass produce it. As I posted before I have I think the only upgradedOil pump (http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123655837)on the forum. But the rest of the kit i would be interested in.

Under what type of demands on the motor do you see a drop in oil pressure? Regular driving or extended high RPM use? I don't have an oil pressure gauge on my car.

[supa saiyan pr5]

As I posted before I have I think the only upgradedOil pump (http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123655837)on the forum.


I also have these gears from MAM in my oil pump and the oil light is coming on at anything below 2800 rpm...im definately going with the upgraded oil pump...I dont plan on killing a second motor..especially since it only has 2800 miles

[MP3racer]

I am intersted as well and would like to know about the kit as well if you where to mass produce it. As I posted before I have I think the only upgradedOil pump (http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123655837)on the forum. But the rest of the kit i would be interested in.

Under what type of demands on the motor do you see a drop in oil pressure? Regular driving or extended high RPM use? I don't have an oil pressure gauge on my car.


Yes, we have a few sets of the same gears as you link to. As far as I know they were not made to increase the oil pump volume or pressure. They were made because the World Challenge teams were experiencing engine failure due to the oil pump gear breaking and then of course no oil pressure. They are made from a much better alloy than the factory oil pump gear. Again, very nice part for what it was designed for.....


As for the oil pressure drop, we have seen it with the extended high RPM use because that is the only thing the race car does! We have not done any testing on street cars or "street" motors so I can't say if the pressure drop is seen there as well.

[bazooka joe]

I also have these gears from MAM in my oil pump and the oil light is coming on at anything below 2800 rpm...im definately going with the upgraded oil pump...I dont plan on killing a second motor..especially since it only has 2800 miles
so you're still in the game?????????????????????????????????????????????? ??(cool)

[Magus]

So here is the million dollar question Doc,


I have a protege5 and got an AWR pan when I dropped a new motor in. I autocross (in a parking lots) and wonder if the process of run, sit, run, sit, run, and sit would be ok without experiencing the oil pressure drops? The reason I ask, as your conditions are very different. I just got the engine replaced, and afraid to autocross if I am going to blow another engine. I also do not have a load of cash to have the oil pump changed and a fitting welded to the MBSP. If it was not for this, I would jump on this like white on rice. I mean, it is just not possible to do this without taking the engine out or dropping the tranny? I have changed the timing belt and taking the oil pan off should not be an issue. It it is possible then there is just the MBSP getting a tap welded on it. Could take a picture of that part of the engine with an area circled to show us the novices the best location on the MBSP? Also is this something you could take to a shop and get welded without too much labor or does the engine have to be taken apart? Also, I may be confused, but is this sandwich plate go between the engine and the oil filter, or is this between the engine and oil pan?

Is there anyone that has a oil pressure gauge that could verfy the psi in a similar conditions as a autocross event?

[MP3racer]

So here is the million dollar question Doc,


I have a protege5 and got an AWR pan when I dropped a new motor in. I autocross (in a parking lots) and wonder if the process of run, sit, run, sit, run, and sit would be ok without experiencing the oil pressure drops? The reason I ask, as your conditions are very different. I just got the engine replaced, and afraid to autocross if I am going to blow another engine. I also do not have a load of cash to have the oil pump changed and a fitting welded to the MBSP. If it was not for this, I would jump on this like white on rice. I mean, it is just not possible to do this without taking the engine out or dropping the tranny? I have changed the timing belt and taking the oil pan off should not be an issue. It it is possible then there is just the MBSP getting a tap welded on it. Could take a picture of that part of the engine with an area circled to show us the novices the best location on the MBSP? Also is this something you could take to a shop and get welded without too much labor or does the engine have to be taken apart? Also, I may be confused, but is this sandwich plate go between the engine and the oil filter, or is this between the engine and oil pan?

Is there anyone that has a oil pressure gauge that could verfy the psi in a similar conditions as a autocross event?


I'm sorry...I wish I could shed more light on your situation but we have never tested in those particular conditions.....

Have you had engine failure problems in the past under these conitions??

If so, do you know what the general cause of the failure was??

[avarela86]

thanks for the response. Sweet then, it was a valuable investment? Will I still need to swap it out though? LMK I will try to source an oil press gauge to see how my car is reacting. Definitely will be reading up as updates arise.

[MP3racer]

thanks for the response. Sweet then, it was a valuable investment? Will I still need to swap it out though? LMK I will try to source an oil press gauge to see how my car is reacting. Definitely will be reading up as updates arise.


Yes, they are good gears made for long use. We have a set in the current oil pump on the race motor for this season. We have coated and used them same as the stock ones....

[MP3racer]

As requested, here are some pics of our current oil pan.....

Pic 1

You can see the "gates" surrounding the pick-up that swing only inward to keep oil around the pick-up in turns

Pic 3

This is with the baffle plate in place. Also notice the baffles over the inlets on each side for the turbo oil return and the external PRV bypass return. The keep the oil off the opening to the pan to allow free flowing returns.

Pic 4

Pic5

These are external pics. Notice the "Block Body Emitter" coating to help with oil cooling!

[mspHtown]

i didnt read through the entire thread.

you guys modified the stock oil pan?
do you offer this service. the awr pan is a little expensive and the clearance in my opinion is poor.
if you do, how much?

[MP3racer]

i didnt read through the entire thread.

you guys modified the stock oil pan?
do you offer this service. the awr pan is a little expensive and the clearance in my opinion is poor.
if you do, how much?


Yes, we used the OE oil pan bolt flange, but it is custom fabricated from there....

We are not really looking to offer these pans as they are quite labor intensive and not really intended for street use as they do require maintenance to keep them from leaking.....

Pictures posted as requested to "get a look" at what we are currently using....

[mspHtown]

Yes, we used the OE oil pan bolt flange, but it is custom fabricated from there....

We are not really looking to offer these pans as they are quite labor intensive and not really intended for street use as they do require maintenance to keep them from leaking.....

Pictures posted as requested to "get a look" at what we are currently using....

Is the oil leaking through the welds?

[Magus]

I think the problem was my aggressive driving+long sweeping off ramp. It did not fail at an autocrossing event, but I concerned with the recent oil pressure information. So I got the AWR oil pan to keep the oil from getting away in turns. It also holds more oil, 5 quarts vs. 3.7 quarts. I have only a front SLS mount and have no clearance issues. Whether there are clearance issues with a 4-2-1 header, I am not sure. The other headers should be as long as your stock mounts are not ripped.

Well I figure there are higher possilbities of people autocrossing then road racing because this is a daily driver for most. I, just like many others, do not want to blow another/first motor. So if there is any one out there with a oil pressure gauge, could you do some spirited driving and keep an eye on the gauge, and stop. Record what you shall and wait 4 minutes. Then record your settings and drive some more. Record what they were after that after you stop again. The will help our community determine how close to death our motors are really. I would make it a point to maybe do this three times with three different limiting rpms (4K, 5K, 6K). I would do it, but I do not have a oil pressure gauge installed.

[MP3racer]

Is the oil leaking through the welds?


Yes, this is very common with custom made pans. The mig/tig welds tend to leak a bit, especially with synthetic oils. Just takes a bit of brazing to get it all sealed up. I think you can see the new brazing in pic #4.

I have heard of this with the AWR pans as well....

[jmr302]

I haven't had an MBSP (aka 'upper oil pan block') in my hands, but is there enough wall thickness & is it flat enough that it could be drilled and tapped for a pipe fitting port? Then you could use an AN816-whatever fitting to connect a 37 degree flare fitting hose.

You can find pipe thread taps in hardware stores and if you're careful with how deep you tap the hole it could work. Much cheaper than getting something welded.

[Magus]

I will check my pan for oil leaks when I go to change the oil soon. Personally I was pretty impressed and happy with the quality of the pan. Especially if you compare it to their endlinks! Is the welds the real reason it takes so much maintance, or is it because of the spring hinges getting mucked up and not working well? If it is the hinges, I could understand why that would be a pain in the butt for regular people.

I think the idea of drilling, tapping, and not welding the MBSP is probably not a good idea. Since we are dealing with pressure, I am not sure you could seal it good enough without welding it, am I right doc?

[MP3racer]

I will check my pan for oil leaks when I go to change the oil soon. Personally I was pretty impressed and happy with the quality of the pan. Especially if you compare it to their endlinks! Is the welds the real reason it takes so much maintance, or is it because of the spring hinges getting mucked up and not working well? If it is the hinges, I could understand why that would be a pain in the butt for regular people.

I think the idea of drilling, tapping, and not welding the MBSP is probably not a good idea. Since we are dealing with pressure, I am not sure you could seal it good enough without welding it, am I right doc?


The welds for us have been the most maintenance. The gates stay pretty clean but then again we change the oil in the racecar at each race weekend!

Drilling and tapping the MBSP might not be a bad idea but I'll have to check to see how much thickness is there to se if it would be sufficient enough to get a good seal....

[speed5hornet]

hmm, interesting stuff here! im turboing my p5 next month, if you guys make a kit i will seriously think about this!

[Packerfan]

This all sounds great and it couldnt come at a better time for me as my motor is also getting ready to go together. I am very interested and would be willing to beat forcefed on being the guinne pig LOL would like to throw something else into the mix of all this. What has your experience been with windage and crank holding back oil my understanding was the FS-DE cranks will cause a tornado effect and keep oil moving around crank and starving pick-up tube/screen at high RPM this all makes sense to me as Me and other members have seen rod bearing wear on tear downs with no main bearing wear at all this would support the tornado theory I would think. Correct me if I am wrong.

[MP3racer]

This all sounds great and it couldnt come at a better time for me as my motor is also getting ready to go together. I am very interested and would be willing to beat forcefed on being the guinne pig LOL would like to throw something else into the mix of all this. What has your experience been with windage and crank holding back oil my understanding was the FS-DE cranks will cause a tornado effect and keep oil moving around crank and starving pick-up tube/screen at high RPM this all makes sense to me as Me and other members have seen rod bearing wear on tear downs with no main bearing wear at all this would support the tornado theory I would think. Correct me if I am wrong.

I wish I could shed some more light on your theory but it would take a ton of testing/dyno time and a see through block to determine for sure!
However, the fact that you see rod bearing wear with no main bearing wear in my opinion does not support this theory. The main bearings are supplied with oil directly from internal passages. The rod bearings are supplied from the main bearings as the crank cross-drilled holes rotate. Any main bearing clearance outside of a small window will allow the oil wedge to be somewhat maintained for the main bearings but leak out the sides of the main bearings (rather than supplying the rod bearings through the crank) and starve the rod bearings for oil. You would see the pattern you are stating of little wear on the mains and excessive wear on the rods.
We know this from experience...(bang)

[Maxx Mazda]

You are incorrect regarding the AWR pan. Here is a shot of an oil return block I made, since I don't feel comfortable threading into 1/8'' steel. You can see how well it's baffled so the pickup stays completely submurged no matter how hard you could possibly corner.

http://www.msprotege.com/members/Maxx%20Mazda/Pan1.jpg

http://www.msprotege.com/members/Maxx%20Mazda/Pan2.jpg

[Magus]

I would also mention that there is an adapter to extend the oil pick-up line. They do not show it, but it comes with the pan.

[Tom03es]

I would also mention that there is an adapter to extend the oil pick-up line. They do not show it, but it comes with the pan.

"They" being AWR?

[Maxx Mazda]

I would also mention that there is an adapter to extend the oil pick-up line. They do not show it, but it comes with the pan.

Ya but it sucks. It pushes the pickup too far down into the pan, and smooshes the pickup screen, leaving only about 1/8" between the pickup pipe and the pan bottom. It causes a restriction in the oil pickup whish is REAL BAD.

Without the spacer my screen just barely touches the bottom. I know this because when I pulled it off again there were scrape marks o nthe bottom of the pan from the screen scraping some of the paint off.

[Magus]

Ok, I am really starting to wonder about mazda. Here is the list of problems with the engine:

-3.7 quarts of oil holding and no diverters to keep oil in place when cornering

-small oil filter

-oil pressure relief issues

-main bearings not up to spec can cause rod failure

-screws from VTCS and VIC can drop in the engine

-Manifold is highly restrictive

-VTCS is useless and restricts air flow

-pre-cat and midpipe are restrictive

Holy hell man!!!! :'( The funny thing is they build the car to handle and encourage it will their zoom-zoom campains! :'( :'( :'( :'(

Here is what we can do to fix these:

AWR Oil Pan-3.7 quarts of oil holding and no diverters to keep oil in place when cornering

Filter Relocation kit-Small oil filter

Doc's oil pump, and oil pressure kit-oil pressure relief issues

engine tear down???-main bearings not up to spec can cause rod failure

Red locite and VTCS removal-screws from VTCS and VIC can drop in the engine

Port it or get 626-Manifold is highly restrictive

remove it-VTCS is useless and restricts air flow

remove them and get header/midpipe-pre-cat and midpipe are restrictive

[magnumP5]

Ok, I am really starting to wonder about mazda. Here is the list of problems with the engine:

-3.7 quarts of oil holding and no diverters to keep oil in place when cornering

-small oil filter

-oil pressure relief issues

-main bearings not up to spec can cause rod failure

-screws from VTCS and VIC can drop in the engine

-Manifold is highly restrictive

-VTCS is useless and restricts air flow

-pre-cat and midpipe are restrictive

Hate to break it to you man but you're driving a small Japanese econo-box that was never intended for racing. If you take that into consideration the only problems with these motors are:

1) Oil pressure relief issues - not because you loose pressure while racing or at high RPM but because pressure drops significantly over long periods of driving; normal or not.

2) Screws from VTCS and VIC can drop in the engine - this was an oversite on Mazda's part but there is a recall out there and it only affected like a half of one year. It's free to get it fixed.

All the others you listed do not apply to the use Mazda had intended for this car. How many high flowing exhausts and intakes do you see on Honda Civics (and I'm not talking Si's)? How many small four-cylinder engines do you see with massive 5.2L oil capacities or over-large oil filters? The answer to these questions is zero. This car was meant to be a little, relatively cheap and efficient economy car. You can argue all you want that people will race anything but that's not the car manufacturer's fault. The FSDE motor has been around for a long time and under normal circumstances it is a very reliable motor.

Sorry for the rant but I'm really sick of seeing people complain about this car/motor because it won't hold 400 whp and withstand hours of track time in it's stock form.

[Magus]

Trust me, I am not complain about my awesome 400 whp (evil) Yeah right, it is probably more like 110-115 whp with my mods. I think it is because I just expected to take a corner and not kill the motor. I mean this is a mazda and not a saturn right? Honestly, I have taken measures to FIX my mazda problems:

AWR Oil Pan
Motor mounts
Better Tires
CAI

Things I still need to do:

Doc oil pressure fix w/oil pump
Remove VTCS
4-2-1 header w/ custom midpipe

I purposely do not road race because of the chance of hitting someone (or them you) or hitting a wall. This is my daily driver and I am making it into something it should have been from factory or at least a factory option. I will get a car just for racing down the line.

[Tom03es]

I mean this is a mazda and not a saturn right?

Easy there. I know of some Saturns that can outrun some Mazdas on the racetrack.

[Magus]

Well I have had bad luck with Saturns, but that is probably because of the way I drove them (fast around corners and rev like crazy). I have been through a 92 SL1 and a 97 SC2. Honestly, the SC2 was not as responsive or handled as good as my P5. I had a chance after having the P5 for a while to drive it again and man did I miss the P5. The power might have been slightly better stock vs stock because of weight. If you did not have to fix the steering so it was more responsive and had more aftermarket support, the SC2 would have been great! I am honestly surprised to this day that Saturn did not even try to develop that car at all! Oh well, back on Protege and oil pressure discussion.

[Magus]

So the Oil Pressure fix is:

Oil pump from Mazda----------$125
Oil pump worked on by Doc----$100
Bypass Valve-----------------$125
Sandwich plate---------------$64<---not sure can someone find me one?
ANI lines----------------------$???
get a ANI line fitting on MBSP--$???

[TheMAN]

getting the AWR oil pan is one thing, but losing the ability to install a tie bar turns me off

[MP3racer]

getting the AWR oil pan is one thing, but losing the ability to install a tie bar turns me off


How do you figure you are loosing the ability to install a tie bar???(uhm)

[ForceFed]

How do you figure you are loosing the ability to install a tie bar???(uhm)I assume he is referring to the wider oil pans and a lower tie bar..Not an upper.

[Maxx Mazda]

I assume he is referring to the wider oil pans and a lower tie bar..Not an upper.

Cookie 4 U!

[StealthWyvern]

getting the AWR oil pan is one thing, but losing the ability to install a tie bar turns me off

And here I thought the AWR pan was a bolt in thing without having to remove crap... to be honest im not 100% sure what a tie bar is

[Tom03es]

A tie bar connects the forward part of the control arms together. I'm guessing that an AWR pan hangs too low and would interfere with an off-the-shelve tie bar.

[MP3racer]

I assume he is referring to the wider oil pans and a lower tie bar..Not an upper.


Shouldn't be a problem....we run a GT Spec lower tie bar with our pan and no clearance issues at all.....

[TheMAN]

unless they changed the design, this is the problem:
http://www.msprotege.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=107311
http://www.khaosman.com/albums/whygodwhy/DSC09674.sized.jpg (http://www.khaosman.com/gallery/whygodwhy/DSC09674)
http://www.khaosman.com/albums/whygodwhy/DSC09671.sized.jpg (http://www.khaosman.com/gallery/whygodwhy/DSC09671)

http://web2.airmail.net/theman/MBJ460inst.jpg

[Maxx Mazda]

That's true, although I doubt that tie bar would seriously do fuck all...

[MP3racer]

unless they changed the design, this is the problem:
http://www.msprotege.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=107311





That may be true of the AWR pan. The one we use allows the GT Spec 4 point ladder tie bar without issues....and is definitely not that close to the OE cradle!

[TheMAN]

That's true, although I doubt that tie bar would seriously do fuck all...
you're kidding right? :rolleyes:

[Maxx Mazda]

you're kidding right? :rolleyes:

Oh absolutely...

[WRCprotege]

iv been though 4 motors, i still have 3 oil pumps by the way, all with 30k or less..so this might well be my next mod.. i hate to replace a motor AGAIN, though im getting very fast.. lol.. 8 hrs last time with just two of us.. so some one find out where we can get the plates and lines from.. i think id like to do this.. also i was looking to make a copy of the AWR oil pan myself.. and a few buddys that are engineers.. well see how that turns out..lol

[Maxx Mazda]

So Edwin what's the verdict on swapping in a spring from another pump?

[Packerfan]

Ok so before this goes off topic lets get final
info on this mod posted with shipping info address ands what not maybe pricing as full package including all lines gaskets sandwich plates seals to replace pump re-locate filter with PRV and bypass system.

[MP3racer]

I have had a number of PM's on the pricing for the pump.

The $100 covers:
1.receiving your pump
2.disassembling your pump
3.recording pre-coating specs
4.sending to Swain Tech
5.coating of parts at Swain Tech
6.receiving back from Swain Tech
7.recording post-coating specs
8.reassembly of your pump

Shipping cost back to you is determined by where you are located. You will receive with your pump a copy of the specs.

The current turn-around time is 3 weeks including the time at Swain Tech.

If you have any other questions please let me know!

[MP3racer]

So Edwin what's the verdict on swapping in a spring from another pump?


You can try swapping in another spring but I can tell you from experience it will not cure the problem!

Yes, you can increase the base oil pressure with a spring of a higher rate or shimming the current spring to increase its rate. However, with continued "high rpm" (above 3500) use the bypass valve in the oil pump (which is controlled by the spring you are looking to change) causes significant cavitation (foaming) inside the pump. This foaming causes loss of oil pressure due to inefficiency of the rotors (just like cavitation causes an outboard motor prop not to work properly).

These pumps were designed to work on Grandma's car, not a race car!

[ForceFed]

I will likely have a pump coming your way very soon.

Get me the Required Info for shipping and maybe a phone number so we can talk about this.

Also..LMK when a good time to call is.

Thanks
Matt K.

[MP3racer]

Ok so before this goes off topic lets get final
info on this mod posted with shipping info address ands what not maybe pricing as full package including all lines gaskets sandwich plates seals to replace pump re-locate filter with PRV and bypass system.


The pricing I have outlined is:

$100 for blueprint service on the oil pump

$125 for external bypass valves

If purchasing together I will include modifying the oil pump to work with an external bypass valve!

You should be able to source your own sandwich plates, hoses, and bung for the MBSP or pan. I would rather not provide these since there is a huge range in available quality and type of these. Also, depending on where you mount the external bypass valve and locate the return bung your hose lengths will vary.

Possible sources for this stuff is: Jeg's, Summit, HRPworld.com

Any other questions please feel free to ask!!

[Maxx Mazda]

So I got my High Flow pump from TOGA, I'm not sure what they change but the probe guys use them... Matt u want me to ship that pump to Doc B then? LMK...

[kamon8404]

subbin ...

[SeR_Cyclops]

how much more will this flow than the stock.

[ForceFed]

how much more will this flow than the stock.
Its not really about "more" flow..its about Consistant pressure and flow combined.

[MP3racer]

how much more will this flow than the stock.


I wish I could answer this for you guys....however, we have not run a pump with the "blueprint" treatment without the external PRV system so I can't really say. I can say that with our race motors on 20W50 synthetic oil and the system as I have previously described we see 35-40 psi at idle and 70-80 psi at redline with the motor and oil at full operating temperature!

Your numbers will vary depending on many factors to include weight of oil, type of oil, bearing clearances, etc......

Just to be sure you guys understand, the pumps are blueprinted not to just increase their pressure but to allow them to provide the pressure they were designed to give in the first place.

[SeR_Cyclops]

i see what you guys are saying....

[cityracer]

so are you blocking off or capping the oil pumps original bypass valve as well? Is this the reason why we would need an external bypass valve system? I also understand the coating process you have shared with us, but I haven't read any details regarding what happens to the original pumps pressure reliefe valve. or is it that the coating process creates such a high flow/pressure of oil that the secondary pressure reliefe valve is necessary?

[Crazee D]

so are you blocking off or capping the oil pumps original bypass valve as well? Is this the reason why we would need an external bypass valve system?


.....The main reason we have found for the degredation of oil pressure over time with consistent hard use of the motor is due to the factory bypass regulator causing cavitation inside the pump.

What we have done on our race motors is render this inoperative and replace it with a bypass valve externally. This external bypass valve is adjustable as well.

[avarela86]

I am interested in this mod but ultimately I would be interested in the WHOLE shabang. The Sandwich plate and the removing of the valve etc. Are there any basic directions/parts list needed to make this happen? Of course willing to pay for your research.

[ForceFed]

Well..Just to let you guys know..I have committed to this.
I will do a smll write up as I Install the parts..but it may be a few weeks for that..I am still waiting on my head to get back and it will likely be about a month or more before I have everything to install this setup as well.

[MP3racer]

Quote:
Originally Posted by cityracer http://static.mazdas247.com/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?p=3778217#post3778217)
so are you blocking off or capping the oil pumps original bypass valve as well? Is this the reason why we would need an external bypass valve system?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MP3racer http://static.mazdas247.com/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?p=3752088#post3752088)
.....The main reason we have found for the degredation of oil pressure over time with consistent hard use of the motor is due to the factory bypass regulator causing cavitation inside the pump.

What we have done on our race motors is render this inoperative and replace it with a bypass valve externally. This external bypass valve is adjustable as well.

Thanks for answering this question Crazee D!! I think you guys have the idea!!(thumb)

[MP3racer]

I am interested in this mod but ultimately I would be interested in the WHOLE shabang. The Sandwich plate and the removing of the valve etc. Are there any basic directions/parts list needed to make this happen? Of course willing to pay for your research.



The pricing I have outlined is:

$100 for blueprint service on the oil pump

$125 for external bypass valves

If purchasing together I will include modifying the oil pump to work with an external bypass valve!

You should be able to source your own sandwich plates, hoses, and bung for the MBSP or pan. I would rather not provide these since there is a huge range in available quality and type of these. Also, depending on where you mount the external bypass valve and locate the return bung your hose lengths will vary.

Possible sources for this stuff is: Jeg's, Summit, HRPworld.com

Any other questions please feel free to ask!!

[Packerfan]

Bump For A Good Guy

[Crazee D]

Does anyone have the oil pump part number?

[AcolyteMSP]

Im in the process of rebuilding right now again. Already have an AWR oil pan i dont want to add more stuff (extrenal bypass whatnot) is the TOGA pump any good or will this process that you perform to the stock pump make it flow better?

[ForceFed]

Does anyone have the oil pump part number?I do beleive it is this FS01-14-100N

[MP3racer]

Im in the process of rebuilding right now again. Already have an AWR oil pan i dont want to add more stuff (extrenal bypass whatnot) is the TOGA pump any good or will this process that you perform to the stock pump make it flow better?


I am not aware how TOGA improves the pump. I know when we looked into them previously they did not reveal any significant improvement.
Of course....."your results may vary" :p

[kylenls]

so for a lightly modded daily driven street car, would a larger oil pan suffice or would i still want to get the improved oil pump?

[ForceFed]

SOoo....Did you get a pump for me ?
I havent heard from you for a bit..Just wondering.
You should have gotten some $$$ as well by now.
LMK

[719prottege]

I dont know if i missed it, but how much and where can i get it?

[Maxx Mazda]

Matt did DocB get your pump yet?

[Packerfan]

Curious to know the answer too have Pm him several times with no answer I know he races allot maybe he is away or something not that that would be an understandable excuse for me as I do the same and I cant race until my OIL PUMP comes in and I can get this motor back together. T where are YOU

[MP3racer]

SOoo....Did you get a pump for me ?
I havent heard from you for a bit..Just wondering.
You should have gotten some $$$ as well by now.
LMK


I may be mistaken but I thought you had decided you were going to get a pump locally since you could get one for $75????

[MP3racer]

Matt did DocB get your pump yet?


Yes, I did receive the pump today....package is kind of beat up. I'll take it to the shop tomorrow and dissasemble.....who should I PM the initial specs to??? I guess I'm a bit confused here as to whose pump this is since it has so many different names associated.....

[Maxx Mazda]

Yes, I did receive the pump today....package is kind of beat up. I'll take it to the shop tomorrow and dissasemble.....who should I PM the initial specs to??? I guess I'm a bit confused here as to whose pump this is since it has so many different names associated.....

If its in a yellow bubble envelope it's mine. Matt K. (ForceFed) traded me for it, so I drop shipped it to you. I have nothing to do with it now, just do what you do and ship it back to him.

[MP3racer]

If its in a yellow bubble envelope it's mine. Matt K. (ForceFed) traded me for it, so I drop shipped it to you. I have nothing to do with it now, just do what you do and ship it back to him.


OK, so that must be the pump he is referring to.....I got it today but the yellow bubble envelope didn't fair to well.....no bubbles left......

I'll look at it tomorrow and PM him

Tom

[Packerfan]

Oh Boy I Thought Forcefed Would Have Sent And Got His Back Already Your Slacking Matt What Took So Long You Should Have Said Something I Would Have Sent Him One Of My Extras For You When I Sent Mine I Guess I Am The Guinea Pig. Lol

[ForceFed]

Well..I hope it made it in acceptable shape even though the wrap did not fair well?
Did it?
I don't want to play around with my life blood ya now.
LMK

[MP3racer]

Please be advised!!!!!

Do not send dirty, greasy oil pumps for coating!!! (notcool)

From this time on if a pump is received that requires cleaning prior to disassembly there will be an additional $50 charge!!

Please understand, the coating company would not even accept a dirty pump much less try to coat it! When it comes to engine assembly the cleaner the parts and the surroundings the better the chance for long engine life!!

Tom

[Maxx Mazda]

Ya C'mon people, all it takes is a bit of brake cleaner and some paper towel...

[hsumra]

subin...

[Packerfan]

Ok results are in been driving car with new motor with updated oil pump from Doc B also had internal bypass removed and went with external bypass with oil filter relocation. Let me just say this might be the best mod I have ever done to this car. Oil Press is perfect and stays that way no matter how hot or how hard I work the motor at 2000 rpm I see 20 psi at 4000 rpm I see 40 psi and so on, motor sounds better at high Rpm GREAT WORK DOC pm me your phone number so we can talk lost your number. Also for everyones info you can do this upgrade without pulling motor I had oil leak at pump and had to pull pump after it was in car and re-rtv let me tell you it wasnt to bad at all no hanging motor didnt even have to touch mounts rate it a 8 out of 10 in difficulty. Also on RTV dont use anything but Mazdas gasket maker great stuff little pricey but worth it. Thanks DOC B for saving my bearings. Rob

[AusOrion]

How did you connect the overflow (bypass) line back into the oil pan without pulling the motor? That is about the only thing that is holding me back from getting this organised.

Cheers.

[Maxx Mazda]

...Oil Press is perfect and stays that way no matter how hot or how hard I work the motor at 2000 rpm I see 20 psi at 4000 rpm I see 40 psi and so on...

I get higher pressures than that (hot) with my Toga pump. I thought it was supposed to bump the pressure more?

[ForceFed]

I get higher pressures than that (hot) with my Toga pump. I thought it was supposed to bump the pressure more?
It'll bump it where you set it...Its externally adjustable.
If you want it at 10psi..you can set it there..if you want it at 100...and the pump will make that pressure..you can set it there too.
See the pattern?

I would trust this pump Far more than your TOGA...but thats just me.

Here is a Pic of your old pump though modded and coated By Doc B.

http://www.msprotege.com/members/ForceFed/Project%20P5/Doc%20B%20oil%20pump%20and%20Valve.jpg
http://www.msprotege.com/members/ForceFed/Project%20P5/Doc%20B%20oil%20pump%20001.jpg
http://www.msprotege.com/members/ForceFed/Project%20P5/Doc%20B%20oil%20pump%20002.jpg
http://www.msprotege.com/members/ForceFed/Project%20P5/Doc%20B%20oil%20pump%20003.jpg

[Maxx Mazda]

Looks good Matt, I was only inquiring as to why the pressures were a bit less than my toga pump, even though it's externally regulated. Maybe I was incorrect in assuming a bigger bump in pressure over stock. I guess it's not just pressure thats to be concerned about, It would be interesting to be able to measure flow on the stock pump versus this one.

[Packerfan]

Well it all depends on what kind of comparison you are looking for stock pump untreated by Doc with internal regulator versus same pump with external maybe I dont know but I like this set up better. Relocated filter and external reg. make oil pressure changes a breeze. And yes this is what I set it at took two stops to dial it in had it upwards of 50-60psi hot when I first started. Great Job Doc chime in whenever you can.(lol)

[Maxx Mazda]

It's not just the external regulator that does it. Anyone can slap an external regulator on and jack their oil pressure, but they caot the inside of the pump as well to tighten up the tolerances.

[ForceFed]

It's not just the external regulator that does it. Anyone can slap an external regulator on and jack their oil pressure, but they caot the inside of the pump as well to tighten up the tolerances.
No..You cant just slap an External regualtor on and jack with your pressures....Only up to what the pump does in the Factory form.

The Relief valve is removed..otherwise you couldn't get more pressure from the stock pump than it is designed.
But yes...The coating does help tighten up the tolerances as well.

[Maxx Mazda]

No..You cant just slap an External regualtor on and jack with your pressures....Only up to what the pump does in the Factory form.

The Relief valve is removed..otherwise you couldn't get more pressure from the stock pump than it is designed.
But yes...The coating does help tighten up the tolerances as well.

It's not hard to remove the stock regulator... I'm interested to see how this pans out in the long run.

[ForceFed]

I dont see how it could possibly go wrong at all?
I mean Unless the PRV fails....nothing else really can..no more then the OEM stuff.

[avarela86]

hmmm...so any shots of the new pump installed. Or at least the regulator and relocated filter?

[Packerfan]

Here You Go Best I have. Sorry about crappy looking valve cover waiting for someone to send me one. Hint Hint

[MP3racer]

Here You Go Best I have. Sorry about crappy looking valve cover waiting for someone to send me one. Hint Hint


System looks good...very similar to the setup in the race car
[IMG]http://www.msprotege.com/members/MP3racer/mazdaspeedprotege017-1.jpg


....Is the oil filter adapter the one I referred you to??

[magnumP5]

That looks pretty good. Seriously making me consider this in the long run. Doesn't look like it would be all too hard to tap the filter adaptor for pressure and temperature senders either.

[Packerfan]

Found it on Ebay Billet Aluiminum good quality you should get a package deal working on this setup with filter relocation setup and PRV and pump work and I know you can do it because after motor start up I thought pump was leaking so I removed oil pump with motor in place No motor mount removal or loosing at all, not easy but can be done and BTW it was camshaft seal leaking. Timing belt job twice really but only changed belt once after I found it soaked with oil from the cam seal leak.

[jimmysuite]

Interested in this. MP3 racer, I sent you a pm a couple weeks ago. Where you at?

[MP3racer]

Interested in this. MP3 racer, I sent you a pm a couple weeks ago. Where you at?


Sorry...I meant to get back to you but our schedule has been crazy!!! 3 races in 6 weeks and also we partnered with another team to help manage a team of 3 Koni Challenge cars.....We should have a break in a week or so when I planned to catch everyone up on the events we have run with the Mazdaspeed Protege.....

I will try to get back to your PM in the next day or so.....

Thanks everyone!!!

Tom

[unionrdr]

Yeah,a kit would be great. I wanna try this one on my probe SE 2.0L. If it works out well,you could sell a lot of these over on probetalk. Have you worked out a price yet?

[jwehrheim]

Is there a list of parts, (an fittings, an size hose, length of hose, etc) needed for this modification? In addition, a diagram would be nice.

[kz9]

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Can't you just change the stock By-pass spring to one with more tension to get higher pressure?

Cause I know that big block guys do this.

[Packerfan]

Sorry its not the spring tension thats the problem its the tolerances in the impeller housing that are way out and are brought back to better then spec making pump more efficient regardless of viscosity. External reg, is not really needed but well worth it for what I am doing. I have actually noticed motor is quieter not so much valve noise as prior to job. Very Happy with it.

[kz9]

OK.



FYI..... thats why its call a pressure spring. ;)

[ForceFed]

OK.



FYI..... thats why its call a pressure spring. ;)
And your point with this comment is what?

The increase in pressure has nothing to do with this mod really.

The increase in pressure , if any, is a Byproduct of having a better tolerance level in the Planetary gears that drive the pump....

....And Removing the Bypass spring and running the External Regulator allows the pump to work more efficiently and not cause Cavitation inside the pump which will lead to premature bearing wear under prolongd Higher than normal RPM loads.

Another benefeit of the External PRV is being able to set your pressure where you would like it to run for your particular application.

[kz9]

Cavitation is when a pump rotates, produces pressure, but doesn't produce the GPM at a specific RPM or no GPM at all

Unless ur reducing the GPM of the pump, its still gonna cavitate as much as the stock system as the system can only flow so much GPM before the pressure rise.

[kz9]

I don't see the oil pump is cavitating.


SUBJECT : Cavitation \

Cavitation means that cavities or bubbles are forming in the liquid that we're pumping. These cavities form at the low pressure or suction side of the pump, causing several things to happen all at once:

The cavities or bubbles will collapse when they pass into the higher regions of pressure, causing noise, vibration, and damage to many of the components.
We experience a loss in capacity.
The pump can no longer build the same head (pressure)
The pump's efficiency drops.


The cavities form for five basic reasons and it's common practice to lump all of them into the general classification of cavitation.

Vaporization
Air ingestion (Not really cavitation, but has similar symptoms)
Internal recirculation
Flow turbulence
The Vane Passing Syndrome
Vaporization .

[ForceFed]

I am still failing to see your point..other than trying to argue about something....that there is nothing really to argue about? (deadhorse

[MP3racer]

I don't see the oil pump is cavitating.


SUBJECT : Cavitation \

Cavitation means that cavities or bubbles are forming in the liquid that we're pumping. These cavities form at the low pressure or suction side of the pump, causing several things to happen all at once:

The cavities or bubbles will collapse when they pass into the higher regions of pressure, causing noise, vibration, and damage to many of the components.
We experience a loss in capacity.
The pump can no longer build the same head (pressure)
The pump's efficiency drops.


The cavities form for five basic reasons and it's common practice to lump all of them into the general classification of cavitation.

Vaporization
Air ingestion (Not really cavitation, but has similar symptoms)
Internal recirculation
Flow turbulence
The Vane Passing Syndrome
Vaporization .


Sorry, but I am going to jump in here for a minute....the cavitation occurs due to where the OE pressure relief valve (PRV) returns the unwanted oil...that is directly into the planetary gears of the pump....the bypassed oil is foamed somewhat causing the cavitation to occur. In removing the OE PRV and replacing it with an external unit the bypassed oil can be returned to the pan where the foamed oil will have little to no effect on the system......

Tom

[magnumP5]

Are you guys still accepting oil pumps? Everyday I keep seeing my oil pressure gauge reading lower and lower (checked oil level yesterday and it was only about 1/4 qt low) so I don't know whether it's my pressure sender or oil pump that's on it's way out (what else would cause low oil pressure?). I'll be installing a new oil pressure gauge soon but I still might try to get one of those improved oil pumps.

[sandspeed]

X2 to what magnumP5 said..

I have a brand new oem oil pump that I want to send you guys. I'll send a pm today.

[jimmysuite]

I want to sent a pump out to you guys within the next month.....

[Maxx Mazda]

This thread is confusing me... I have the TOGA high flow oil pump, and I have no idea what exactly TOGA does to the pump, but I did get much higher pressure than the stocker. Hot idle, around 700RPM, I get about 40psi, where on the stocker it was like 25. Hot redline is close to 80psi, stock pump was a hair over 55 IIRC. I know many things account for oil pressure, such as bearing tolerances, etc. But I wonder what they could have done with the pump to make the pressure higher? Maybe it could be done with the stocker?

[kz9]

Sorry, but I am going to jump in here for a minute....the cavitation occurs due to where the OE pressure relief valve (PRV) returns the unwanted oil...that is directly into the planetary gears of the pump....the bypassed oil is foamed somewhat causing the cavitation to occur. In removing the OE PRV and replacing it with an external unit the bypassed oil can be returned to the pan where the foamed oil will have little to no effect on the system......

Tom

Ok ok... that makes sense to me now. that is definetly a way that air can be introduced into the pump.

So you are blocking the stock PRV?

[kz9]

I am still failing to see your point..other than trying to argue about something....that there is nothing really to argue about? (deadhorse

I was tryin to get an explaination on what he thinks was causing cavitation of the pump.

Foamy oil is a way just like he explained. I just hope that he blocked the stock PRV passage or the foamy oil is still gonna make it way into the pump.

[MP3racer]

I was tryin to get an explaination on what he thinks was causing cavitation of the pump.

Foamy oil is a way just like he explained. I just hope that he blocked the stock PRV passage or the foamy oil is still gonna make it way into the pump.


Yes...if you look back to the original discussion the OE PRV is removed and blocked requiring the external PRV to be added to the system....

[MP3racer]

This thread is confusing me... I have the TOGA high flow oil pump, and I have no idea what exactly TOGA does to the pump, but I did get much higher pressure than the stocker. Hot idle, around 700RPM, I get about 40psi, where on the stocker it was like 25. Hot redline is close to 80psi, stock pump was a hair over 55 IIRC. I know many things account for oil pressure, such as bearing tolerances, etc. But I wonder what they could have done with the pump to make the pressure higher? Maybe it could be done with the stocker?

You can increase your pressure simply by adding a higher rate spring to the bypass valve as others have stated.....however, this really does nothing to help prevent the problem seen with consistent (15 minutes or more) medium to high rpm use. Yes the pressure will be higher at start up (and if the motor is rested for a bit) but with continued use the pressure will drop without warning....

[MP3racer]

Are you guys still accepting oil pumps? Everyday I keep seeing my oil pressure gauge reading lower and lower (checked oil level yesterday and it was only about 1/4 qt low) so I don't know whether it's my pressure sender or oil pump that's on it's way out (what else would cause low oil pressure?). I'll be installing a new oil pressure gauge soon but I still might try to get one of those improved oil pumps.


Yes, we are still accepting pumps. Being in the middle of the race season the return time may be longer due to factors here in our shop and at the coating shop.

I hate to say but the problem may not be with your pump but with a main bearing that is starting to go..... causing larger and larger clearances and causing the oil pressure to drop...I would be very careful...if it goes could be catastrophic for the motor.....(shrug)

[magnumP5]

Yes, we are still accepting pumps. Being in the middle of the race season the return time may be longer due to factors here in our shop and at the coating shop.

I hate to say but the problem may not be with your pump but with a main bearing that is starting to go..... causing larger and larger clearances and causing the oil pressure to drop...I would be very careful...if it goes could be catastrophic for the motor.....(shrug)
Yeah, it stuff like that I'm afraid of in which case it's good I'm saving up for a new motor. I'm going to try a new oil pressure gauge (need to get one anyway) and them follow up with compression and leakdown tests. Hopefully something will yield an explanation. Either way, if I do find myself with an extra oil pump I'll be sure to send it your way.

[MP3Performance]

^^^
I had the same problem with my oil pressure gauge. Over a couple months it started reading lower and lower. Eventually it didn't read anything at all (maybe max 5 psi). I sent the gauge to be checked under warranty, and I got a new gauge to try out. But it didn't help at all. I then took off the oil pressure sending unit to inspect it and saw the problem. Some teflon tape came off and started to plug up the pressure sender hole (which was my fault for taping it wrong in the first place). I then replaced the sender and ever since the oil pressure gauge has been perfect. I should also mention that I have a oil temp and oil pressure sensor hooked up to an oil filter adapter plate.

[magnumP5]

I should also mention that I have a oil temp and oil pressure sensor hooked up to an oil filter adapter plate.
This is exactly what I'm going to be doing. I've actually had a sandwich plate for sometime now but the threading in one of the ports is messed up (why the company gave aluminum plugs with an aluminum plate is beyond me) so I have to fix it. I've already ordered a 1/8 NPT tap and some new stainless steel plugs and I'm in the process of getting some new gauges. Hopefully soon I'll be able to figure out if it was just that gauge afterall.

[Pighunter]

Wasn't it a bad idea measuring oil pressure at the oil filter? I learned it would be better to put the sensor where the pressure switch is up in the block. This way the real pressure on its way to the cams is measured instead of the oil pump pressure.

[Maxx Mazda]

If you want "true" oil pressure, there's a 3/8" NPT plug o nthe oil pump itself, it's a hex head plug. Remove it and use a 3/8" NPT adapter and put your sender in there. That'll give you the true pressure that the pump is putting out.

[Packerfan]

Pump to filter, outlet of filter to engine seems to me best place would be after filter at block.

[Maxx Mazda]

Sorry, when I said "true" pressure that's what the pump is putting out. I don't agree with taking the oil pressure at the filter, I take mine from the proper nipple o nthe block itself, cause as mentioned this is what the engine as a whole is seeing. Cams, etc.

[ForceFed]

No point in arguing..Its not meant for this thread.

Thanks guys for understanding.

[magnumP5]

^^^ Not arguing; I just found out something I didn't know. The only reason I'm going to use a sandwich plate is because I have oil pressure and temperature sending units as well as a turbo feed line and I really don't want all those tee'd off the same source. I want to get the pressure sender out of line with the feed line because oil moving past the pressure sender will cause lower pressure readings. My other option is to tee in the pressure sender where the current feed line is (just before the stock pressure sender) and then relocate the feed line to the sandwich plate.

[Maxx Mazda]

Personally if you have to choose, I'd run the turbo feed line off the sandwich plate, and take your pressure reading from the port near the top of the block.

[jwehrheim]

Can someone tell me where I can find an Oil Pressure Release Valve and all the necessary parts, fittings, size hoses (-10, -12, etc) In addition, a diagram would be nice.

Also I want to send my pump to Doc B, but I do not have an address.

Thanks

[MrDiggler]

Hey Tom. I've been away for quite a while, but you might remember me. I'm the guy who bought a spare race motor from Fountain Motorsports a couple of years back. Yes, it's still in the crate, lol, because I haven't felt compelled to install it with my original motor running so well (101k miles now and compression at 189-194 psi). Nevertheless, I'm now progressing toward getting that motor ready to go and I think this discussion will apply to my situation. I remember talking with you once about the oil pump installed on that motor. Apparently it was modified for race duty and was set up to use an external pressure regulator, so we talked about me getting a stock pump from you. Although I don't race, after reading your info and understanding the stock pump's limitations, I think I might rather have mine set up like you've described. I'm wondering now if I don't already have one of these coated pumps, since everything else in this motor was coated by Swain Tech. Would you remember if Fountain was doing this with the oil pumps back then? I guess I could always disassemble it to find out.
I'm also concerned now about the oil pan on that motor. It's a custom gated pan, and looks to be the same design as what you're running. Someone mentioned leaking at the welds... aaack! Any chance I have one that won't leak?
Anyway, glad to see you're still around and doing cool stuff for the community.

[Packerfan]

Can someone tell me where I can find an Oil Pressure Release Valve and all the necessary parts, fittings, size hoses (-10, -12, etc) In addition, a diagram would be nice.

Also I want to send my pump to Doc B, but I do not have an address.

Thanks

You will need oil relocation sandwich plate setup you can find on ebay doc can supply you with pressure regulating valve 10an fittings at auto parts Russell fittings worked out great for me and I can supply you with -10an braided bought a box of 25 feet only needed about 10 foot also dont forget return line fitting from PRV into oil pan have someone weld a 10an fitting into pan at top.

[Crazee D]

Can you make some sort of quick schematic to show how/where everything works/goes?

Is there a list of parts, (an fittings, an size hose, length of hose, etc) needed for this modification? In addition, a diagram would be nice.

Please.
I am considering how to route line to include this ext PRV and the thermostat activated oil cooler.

I guess it would go like this:

Filter spin-on adapter line out goes to the relocated filter bracket/filter.
Line out of filter goes to cooler w/thermostat and return to spin on port.
Line out to turbo from a fitting (somewhere) and return drain into pan.

Now should the PRV system run best integrated with the relocate and / or cooler OR should it be isolated?
Where can I economize the # and amount of lines needed.

I can get the external bypass valve. There are many sources for sandwich plates so I assume you can get one. If you use a sandwich plate the oil filter screws onto the back of it so you won't need a filter mount/relocation kit. Also, you will need some hoses to hook all this up.

I haven't put a "kit" together since this is something that evolved over the past couple days. I can get you links for more of the stuff if needed.


Could we get specs on what we need (i.e. Oil spin on adapter is a M20x1.5, Lines are all -10 or ?, etc..)

BTW, proper oiling/engine life is determined by many other factors such as engine bearings, bearing clearance, oil weight, etc.!!

Can we have another discussion thread on these??


You should be able to source your own sandwich plates, hoses, and bung for the MBSP or pan. I would rather not provide these since there is a huge range in available quality and type of these. Also, depending on where you mount the external bypass valve and locate the return bung your hose lengths will vary.

What brands do u or DONT u recommend from your experiences?

Please be advised!!!!!

Do not send dirty, greasy oil pumps for coating!!! (notcool)


So, does a new one come packed in oil and needs to be cleaned before sending to u? How do u recommend for those of us without access to a parts washer?
Can a used pump be a liability? I have 2 used or I could buy a new.


We will most likely offer the various parts needed or direct you to where they can be obtained.
We use the OE oil supply line to the turbo and a -10 AN line attached to the OE oil drain from the turbo to a fitting on our oil pan.

Any update on this?

One simplification to "the system" I have been thinking of running on the race car is the recently available combo oil filter mounts with built-in pressure adjusters. The cost is about the same as the two separate units but for space savings it might be worth looking at!!!

http://www.chamberssportscards.com/MVC-003c291.JPG (http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?type=3&campid=5336012636&toolid=10001&mpre=http%3A%2F%2Fcgi.ebay.com%2Febaymotors%2Fws%2 FeBayISAPI.dll%3FViewItem%26viewitem%3D%26ru%3Dhtt p%253A%252F%252Fsearch.ebay.com%253A80%252Fsearch% 252Fsearch.dll%253Fsofocus%253Dbs%2526sbrftog%253D 1%2526dfsp%253D1%2526from%253DR40%2526_trksid%253D m37%2526satitle%253D250225607269%2526sacat%253D-1%252526catref%252%23ebayphotohosting)

[Protege5 Driver]

there are 15 pages and it would take a while to read it all so my questions are: is it completed? and how much is it going to cost?

[Crazee D]

Its been available since April.


The pricing I have outlined is:
$100 for blueprint service on the oil pump
$125 for external bypass valves

If purchasing together I will include modifying the oil pump to work with an external bypass valve! You should be able to source your own sandwich plates, hoses, and bung for the MBSP or pan.


The $100 covers:
1.receiving your pump
2.disassembling your pump
3.recording pre-coating specs
4.sending to Swain Tech
5.coating of parts at Swain Tech
6.receiving back from Swain Tech
7.recording post-coating specs
8.reassembly of your pump

Shipping cost back to you is determined by where you are located. You will receive with your pump a copy of the specs.
The current turn-around time is 3 weeks including the time at Swain Tech.

Oil pump part #:

I do beleive it is this FS01-14-100N

Warning:

Please be advised!!!!!

Do not send dirty, greasy oil pumps for coating!!! (notcool)

From this time on if a pump is received that requires cleaning prior to disassembly there will be an additional $50 charge!!

Please understand, the coating company would not even accept a dirty pump much less try to coat it! When it comes to engine assembly the cleaner the parts and the surroundings the better the chance for long engine life!!

Tom

Tom,

You should update the first post in this thread with this info.
And please get back to me, I'll resend my PM.

[nk2a]

sub

[boostdprotegelx]

sub

[shane02pro5]

Me too!

[808MP5]

sub

[Signature Sound]

what does "sub" mean? and are there any updated pictures of anyones setup yet?

[cougar10agREDUX]

"sub"= Subscribe [to the thread]

[avarela86]

I don't think this has been asked already but wouldn't the pump be prone to failure faster since it is working at a elevated rate.

[MP3racer]

I don't think this has been asked already but wouldn't the pump be prone to failure faster since it is working at a elevated rate.

We have not seen any incresed wear with this pump set-up. We have been using the same pump for two racing seasons with no degredation. The improvements made are not done so to make it work at an elevated rate, only to make it work as it was initially designed (but was not able to due to manufacturing tolerances).

[avarela86]

Awesome! Thanks for the response. This looks more and more like a good way to lengthen the life of the engine.

[fatti03msp]

just got my new oil pump in might be sending this out to you guys. Glad i saw this.

[MP3racer]

just got my new oil pump in might be sending this out to you guys. Glad i saw this.

Just PM me when you are ready and I will give you the details.

[fatti03msp]

Just PM me when you are ready and I will give you the details.

will do, thanks

Also its a stupid Question but with the motor rebuild money is tight, i can do the external bypass valves later on when i get the money and use the modded pump by itself?

[MP3racer]

will do, thanks

Also its a stupid Question but with the motor rebuild money is tight, i can do the external bypass valves later on when i get the money and use the modded pump by itself?

You can use the blueprinted pump by itself and it will help some. I think there is one member out there who has done this. However, it really depends on how you will be using your motor.
We found that with continued mid to high RPM use (3500-6500) the stock bypass system caused problems with the oil system that lead to a degredation in oil pressure. If this is sustained, it causes detrimental bearing wear and leads to catastrophic failure (zoom, zoom, BOOM!).
If you will not be using your motor in this way then you might be alright with just the blueprinted oil pump.
If you want to upgrade to the external PRV later you can send your pump back in and for a fee I will convert it for use with the external PRV (currently the service to convert the pump is free with the purchase of the external PRV).

[fatti03msp]

You can use the blueprinted pump by itself and it will help some. I think there is one member out there who has done this. However, it really depends on how you will be using your motor.
We found that with continued mid to high RPM use (3500-6500) the stock bypass system caused problems with the oil system that lead to a degredation in oil pressure. If this is sustained, it causes detrimental bearing wear and leads to catastrophic failure (zoom, zoom, BOOM!).
If you will not be using your motor in this way then you might be alright with just the blueprinted oil pump.
If you want to upgrade to the external PRV later you can send your pump back in and for a fee I will convert it for use with the external PRV (currently the service to convert the pump is free with the purchase of the external PRV).

ok cool thanks for the info, i thought the external PRV was something you could add with out messing with the oil pump. As of now my car is my DD and i will be doing alot of AutoX events with it. This was just something i wanted to get done while i have my motor out and i could send you guys a brand new oil pump to work on. With that being said what is your opinion? Should wait and get it all done at once or just go ahead with the blueprint for now?

Also lil off topic, do you guys ever run at BeaveRun?

[MP3racer]

ok cool thanks for the info, i thought the external PRV was something you could add with out messing with the oil pump. As of now my car is my DD and i will be doing alot of AutoX events with it. This was just something i wanted to get done while i have my motor out and i could send you guys a brand new oil pump to work on. With that being said what is your opinion? Should wait and get it all done at once or just go ahead with the blueprint for now?

Also lil off topic, do you guys ever run at BeaveRun?

Unfortunately the internal PRV is an integral part of the oil pump. Also, once the oil pump is converted for use with the external PRV it is essentially not able to be converted back.
I remember in one of the posts earlier in this thread Packerfan reported he was able to remove his oil pump with the motor in the car without too much trouble.
As far as your car, it just depends on how you are gong to use it....as I said we found the trouble with sustained mid to high range revs. I know many people on this forum have lost motors. However, I am sure it is from a variety of reasons.
As for BeaveRun, we have not run there to date. However, we are looking into doing some of the Super Touring races with the SCCA and I think they had a regoinal or National weekend there.....

[fatti03msp]

Unfortunately the internal PRV is an integral part of the oil pump. Also, once the oil pump is converted for use with the external PRV it is essentially not able to be converted back.
I remember in one of the posts earlier in this thread Packerfan reported he was able to remove his oil pump with the motor in the car without too much trouble.
As far as your car, it just depends on how you are gong to use it....as I said we found the trouble with sustained mid to high range revs. I know many people on this forum have lost motors. However, I am sure it is from a variety of reasons.
As for BeaveRun, we have not run there to date. However, we are looking into doing some of the Super Touring races with the SCCA and I think they had a regoinal or National weekend there.....

I might just have to suck it up then and wait. Ill just buy a new pump and send it out to guys and get it all done at once. But check out the track day im trying to setup in my sig it would be great to have you guys come out if you are free.

Thanks for the info

[MP3racer]

I might just have to suck it up then and wait. Ill just buy a new pump and send it out to guys and get it all done at once. But check out the track day im trying to setup in my sig it would be great to have you guys come out if you are free.

Thanks for the info

OK, when you are ready PM me and I can give you the details. If you look through the thread you will see the recommendations for the block adapter, remote oil filter, and -10 lines that are needed for the whole project.

As for BeaveRun, do you have a date yet? We would have to check our schedule but might be an option...

[fatti03msp]

OK, when you are ready PM me and I can give you the details. If you look through the thread you will see the recommendations for the block adapter, remote oil filter, and -10 lines that are needed for the whole project.

As for BeaveRun, do you have a date yet? We would have to check our schedule but might be an option...

ill shoot you a pm when im ready and let you know when we get a date set for the track day.

[Packerfan]

Well I can answer that if He does the pump and plugs up internal bypass then the answer is no external bypass would have to be done at same time.

[MP3racer]

Well I can answer that if He does the pump and plugs up internal bypass then the answer is no external bypass would have to be done at same time.


Hey BTW, How's your car and system been running??

[Packerfan]

Oil system has been Great but car is laid up think I might have bent a valve or lets say I hope Youy have any nice worked heads laying around? Rob And thanks for asking

[MP3racer]

Oil system has been Great but car is laid up think I might have bent a valve or lets say I hope Youy have any nice worked heads laying around? Rob And thanks for asking

I'll have to check...I might have a head that came off an SCCA SSC Protege motor....can't remember if we used it for something or not...

Why do you think you bent a valve? Or should I say what happened when you "bent the valve"?
(drive2)

[Packerfan]

Just was doing some spirited driving coming home uphill grade fourth gear 50-60mph all of a sudden heavy what sounded like valve clanking to me could be worse will only know when I get head off. BTW no smoke smooth idle no overheating just noise these are supertech valves and heavy duty springs 1mm oversized. Any Thoughts

[MP3racer]

Just was doing some spirited driving coming home uphill grade fourth gear 50-60mph all of a sudden heavy what sounded like valve clanking to me could be worse will only know when I get head off. BTW no smoke smooth idle no overheating just noise these are supertech valves and heavy duty springs 1mm oversized. Any Thoughts
Hard to say without hearing it or where the noise is coming from. Hard to believe that it would be a valve. Have you had the valve cover off? Might be a valve spring. Could also be one of the valve clearance discs.
Let me know when you find out more!

[Packerfan]

Ok will pm you might need your expertise dont want to jack your thread more then I have already thanks

[niky]

@[b]MP3Racer:

One question... since I live overseas and shipping the pump to you could prove problematic, is it possible to buy the pressure relief valve with instructions for how to bypass? I can have that much done locally... though I would love to have the coating done, I'm not sure I could have the car laid-off that long...

[Packerfan]

Might be easier to just purchase new pump and have work done to extra pump and once it is done and back to you then put it in unless your motor is out already and you cant wait to put it back in. It is possible to do it in the car just a little harder. I have two pumps laying around if you are interested.

[MP3racer]

@[b]MP3Racer:

One question... since I live overseas and shipping the pump to you could prove problematic, is it possible to buy the pressure relief valve with instructions for how to bypass? I can have that much done locally... though I would love to have the coating done, I'm not sure I could have the car laid-off that long...

Yes, as Packerfan recommends, I can either purchase a new pump for you or you can arrange for a used pump (with Packerfan for example) to be sent to me. If you would PM me your address I can get you a quote which includes the return shipping amount.

The system is good when used together. However, without the coating you are not getting the full benefit and I can't say what the outcome would be.....

[niky]

Well... willing to risk it. To ship a pump to you and have you ship it back will cost about another $100 (I live in the Philippines). How much is a brand new stocker, if you're going to purchase it and package it with the whole thing?

My pump is still okay. I burned 1 quart of oil in one hour last time i went north to the track, with about 10-15 minutes of that pegged at redline and about 30 minutes in total above 4000 rpm. And that's with an oil cooler, already. I also normally burn about 1 quart every 3000 miles (no burning for the first 2000, then the oil starts going down afterwards), but a clubmate has it worse... his turbocharged car does 1 quart every 1000. :D

My case isn't terrible yet, but I'm paranoid, especially as I plan to do quite a few trackdays and rallycrosses this year. We only have 250 FSDE powered Proteges (Ford Lynx/Tierra) in the country, and so far, have 5-6 blown engines already due to the oil issue.

I'm willing to experiment to see if the bypass works for me, first, then, if not, upgrade to the coated oil pump. I just blew a couple of hundred (plus shipping) on a gear upgrade because I lost the 3rd gear synchro, so you'll understand why I'm a bit reluctant to do this all at once.

[Packerfan]

Just a thought HALF MEASURES AVAIL YOU NOTHING.

[MP3racer]

Sounds like you already have some motor issues if it is burning that much oil! We run the race motors constantly at 4000-7000 RPM with little to no oil loss/burning. If you are loosing oil then you need to determine where it is going. Could be a bad seal in the turbo, piston ring wear, valve seal wear, gasket leaks, etc.

I will get a price for a new pump and PM you a quote. If you will PM me your shipping address I will check into shipping prices as well.

If you don't want to get a pump coated I will convert one for External bypass for $50. Currently, I include this service in the cost of the pump coating.


Well... willing to risk it. To ship a pump to you and have you ship it back will cost about another $100 (I live in the Philippines). How much is a brand new stocker, if you're going to purchase it and package it with the whole thing?

My pump is still okay. I burned 1 quart of oil in one hour last time i went north to the track, with about 10-15 minutes of that pegged at redline and about 30 minutes in total above 4000 rpm. And that's with an oil cooler, already. I also normally burn about 1 quart every 3000 miles (no burning for the first 2000, then the oil starts going down afterwards), but a clubmate has it worse... his turbocharged car does 1 quart every 1000. :D

My case isn't terrible yet, but I'm paranoid, especially as I plan to do quite a few trackdays and rallycrosses this year. We only have 250 FSDE powered Proteges (Ford Lynx/Tierra) in the country, and so far, have 5-6 blown engines already due to the oil issue.

I'm willing to experiment to see if the bypass works for me, first, then, if not, upgrade to the coated oil pump. I just blew a couple of hundred (plus shipping) on a gear upgrade because I lost the 3rd gear synchro, so you'll understand why I'm a bit reluctant to do this all at once.

[MP3racer]

BTW, if you have 250 in the country then get some of your fellow FS-DE car owners together and put together a group buy on the oil pump set-ups. Depending on how many you get togther I will look into a discount. Also, grouped together you will all definitely save on shipping!!(cool)

[niky]

Actually, the crazy thing is, I can run the car for the first 2000 miles after an oil change any way I want, and I don't get any oil burning. As soon as 2000 clicks by and the oil gets dirty enough, every time I give the car a good workout, I start losing it, bit by bit by bit . Doesn't matter if it's semi-synth, or any one of a number of fully synth oils. It's maddening. Multiple compression and leakdown tests show nuthin.

@Packerfan: I know it isn't optimum, but I'm willing to try.

---

I'll be waiting for the quote with the new oil pump... thanks!

[MP3racer]

I would disconnect the outlet pipe from the turbo and look for signs of oil, might have a bad seal.


Actually, the crazy thing is, I can run the car for the first 2000 miles after an oil change any way I want, and I don't get any oil burning. As soon as 2000 clicks by and the oil gets dirty enough, every time I give the car a good workout, I start losing it, bit by bit by bit . Doesn't matter if it's semi-synth, or any one of a number of fully synth oils. It's maddening. Multiple compression and leakdown tests show nuthin.

@Packerfan: I know it isn't optimum, but I'm willing to try.

---

I'll be waiting for the quote with the new oil pump... thanks!

[MP3racer]

OnlineMazdaParts.com a fellow "main sponsor" has the pump as listed below.


Item Number MSRP Core Price Price
FS0114100N $142.73 $0.00 $114.18
Engine - Lubrication - Oil pump - Oil pump
Oil pump, 626, mx-6 - 4 cylinder, 1.6l, 1.8l and 2.0l dohc 1993 - 1994

I would imagine you could purchase it from them. They should be able to ship it to me and I can do the full service (coating and conversion for external PRV) for $100 or just the conversion for external PRV for $50. The external PRV's are currently $130. If you read through the thread there are discussions on the hook-up.

Actually, the crazy thing is, I can run the car for the first 2000 miles after an oil change any way I want, and I don't get any oil burning. As soon as 2000 clicks by and the oil gets dirty enough, every time I give the car a good workout, I start losing it, bit by bit by bit . Doesn't matter if it's semi-synth, or any one of a number of fully synth oils. It's maddening. Multiple compression and leakdown tests show nuthin.

@Packerfan: I know it isn't optimum, but I'm willing to try.

---

I'll be waiting for the quote with the new oil pump... thanks!

[niky]

I'll look for the info... this is just such an incredibly long thread.

RE: group buy, I'll be trying to gauge interest. I might have five or six guys who are willing... Of the 250 owners, only 20-30 are in our car club.

RE: Turbo: I'm actually not turbocharged, and that's the worrying part. Those of us into NA builds have been experiencing oil problems, as well... and most everyone drinks at least a half-quart to a quart of oil between oil changes.

Pretty sure it ain't the rings... the car passes the leakdown test with flying colors. Haven't had a full change interval on the oil cooler to see if it actually helps, but it didn't prevent the oil loss on that 1 hour high-revving stress test.

[MP3racer]

Yes, the issue with the OE oil system has nothing to do with whether the motor is NA or Forced induction. The OE system was designed for a "grocery getter" and not a "race motor". To attempt to make it hold up under higher stress conditions changes are required.....

Regarding your oil loss situation, there are so many variables that without the car in our shop I really couldn't guess any further. I don't think any of the other forum members have experienced that type of problem, bu maybe I am wrong. I would do a search on this forum or place a thread to see if anyone else has had a similar situation.


I'll look for the info... this is just such an incredibly long thread.

RE: group buy, I'll be trying to gauge interest. I might have five or six guys who are willing... Of the 250 owners, only 20-30 are in our car club.

RE: Turbo: I'm actually not turbocharged, and that's the worrying part. Those of us into NA builds have been experiencing oil problems, as well... and most everyone drinks at least a half-quart to a quart of oil between oil changes.

Pretty sure it ain't the rings... the car passes the leakdown test with flying colors. Haven't had a full change interval on the oil cooler to see if it actually helps, but it didn't prevent the oil loss on that 1 hour high-revving stress test.