ETS 3.5" Top mount powder coated all black.

[Andrade08]

Ah so friggin damn pretty:
http://www.extremeturbosystems.com/images/Mazdaspeed-Blem4.jpg
But.......is this a **REAL BAD** idea for a daily driver? I know the bare aluminum would shed heat better but how bad is it to powder the entire TMIC? I am not 100% on FMIC and looking at TMIC now. Figures........
Man that thing is killer looking!!
Matt

[dparm1984]

I talked with Protege Garage about this recently. They said the black coloring has no measurable effect and is merely cosmetic.

[wisniaPl]

what is a difference between 3.5 core and 3.25?? more power??

[trufanatic]

what is a difference between 3.5 core and 3.25?? more power??

OMG please do a search.


I talked with Protege Garage about this recently. They said the black coloring has no measurable effect and is merely cosmetic.

Please tell me the entire thing isnt powder coated and radiator flat black paint was used on the bar and fins themselves? if not that is the dumbest shit i've ever seen!

[Andrade08]

OMG please do a search.



Please tell me the entire thing isnt powder coated and radiator flat black paint was used on the bar and fins themselves? if not that is the dumbest shit i've ever seen!

I am thinking the entire thing has been powder coated in the gloss black you see. I have not baught it because in my mind the powder is traping heat. I have been told no by many but..................I don't know.

[fourthmeal]

snip

[Andrade08]

Baught = Bought.

Ya I spell bad some times............Why are there so many spelling Nazis in here anyway? It's a forum not a spelling exam.

[SPEED3TYPE2]

man but black absorbs sooooo much more heat, if you tak a thermometer and place it on a whie sheetand 1 on a black sheet in the sun for 5 minutes in frezzing whether the thermo on the black sheet will be 90dgrees while the thermo on the white will be around the same! they didi it on the discovery channel to demonstrate the affects of melting ice on golabal warming.

[fourthmeal]

cut

[SPEED3TYPE2]

actually now that i'm thinking... black absorbs all the "colors" of the sun and coverts them into heat energy where as white repels on the colors.. thats why its white. so since the black intercooler isnt being hit by light energy it would not absorb anymore heat!!! So it is just cosmetic...

[fourthmeal]

gone

[Andrade08]

I just stated it so you'd know, since I've seen you type it over and over again. If you didn't know, now you do. Is that bad? Your ability to spell correctly will allow you to convey your message to the forum better, since reading (and spelling) is fundamental.

Oh OK.......Very cool. Thanks for looking out for me. I thought you were just one of those poeple who pointed out other flaws. Sorry.........OOps no S on others. See I am learning so much!

[fourthmeal]

snip

[SPEED3TYPE2]

Interestingly, studies have shown (NASA and NASCAR apparently have more in common then thought before) that a black component has different heating properties, even without a direct source of heat (like the sun.)

It is crazy, but yes it is true.

But, by powdercoating metal you potentially change the thermal-transfer rate of it, so any gain from the color may be lost in the application. Anodizing the metal black would be a good work-around, since Anodizing doesn't add material that would cause a change in thermal rates.

I was refering to light energy being the only diff when it comes to color, from what I know that would be the only source of energy "light" that would make a diff in temp. Heat from the intake charge or from the engine shouldnt have and affect but maybe it does someother way..?

[Andrade08]

I'd prefer to help people instead of step on them. Hell, I'm a trainer/supporter for a complex software made for technicians in the auto field. Even though those guys sometimes have huge egos, they love me because I help them make more money.



LOL! OK..........I am 33 years old. I spell how I spell. I wanted to now if the powder coating material would soak in more heat. Not learn how to spell bought. If you wanted to "help" as you say you would PM people and tell them. Typing it in the open makes you look like your pointing at poeple and saying..."Hey guys look...A helmet wearing dumb ass ha...ha...haa."
Your like my buddies in Florida that crack on me because I am from New England and say Caaa not Carrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. Frig it.

[ispypsi]

i like how it looks and i would buy it like that. the differences are probably negligable.

obviously anodized is the best approach, but painting or powdercoating isn't going to do much. now if you were to thermal heat coat it, with a material that was very thick (like swain white lightning), you'd definitely notice some more heat being trapped in, because the thickness of the coating is considerably higher than paint or powdercoating.



also, i see a little overspray/gunk on the bottom right area. flat head screwdriver can fix that.


ps - why would i want a black tmic? because the engine bay is so neat and tidy with the stock IC and cover, and the cover doesn't fit over the larger cores, so the black would make it look more stock.

[dparm1984]

Depends on how you want to look at things. I prefer to go by the mantra "form follows function"....an item should do its job BEFORE it looks good.

To each his own.

[trufanatic]

its not the color thats trapping heat, its the actual thickness of the powder coat. So whoever tells you that it doesnt trap heat.....BULLSHIT!

Powdercoat the rediator of you car, it might look pretty but tell me what happens.

please tell them to discuss their rational in this thread.

[SPEED3TYPE2]

its not the color thats trapping heat, its the actual thickness of the powder coat. So whoever tells you that it doesnt trap heat.....BULLSHIT!

Powdercoat the rediator of you car, it might look pretty but tell me what happens.

please tell them to discuss their rational in this thread.

the color will trap light energy and convert it to heat, now if the coat is real thick maybe it would hold more heat?? seems negliable. since its not exposed to light should be little to no diff, unless the coat is like a half inch thick...then it would be like a jacket

[fourthmeal]

snip

[SPEED3TYPE2]

good point, but the diff in a human is much greater cuase we release internal heat thru our skin "sweat-evaporative cooling" with latex the sweat would not be able to evaporate dramitcally increasing temp. the powder coat is so thin its just hard to see it as an insualtor

[trufanatic]

powdercoat itself might seem like a thin film but its composition makes it insulate.

[Maxx Mazda]

powdercoat itself might seem like a thin film but its composition makes it insulate.

Show me some proof, cause you've got your head up your ass. This has been beaten to death and it has no measurable difference... Stop over thinking it, and just realize that the amount of heat it actually "traps" is so small that ti's negligable.

[fourthmeal]

snip

[Kynetx]

Powder-coating seems really counter-intuitive to me. An air-to-air intercooler works by flowing air over aluminum fins. Putting a layer of plastic over it would inhibit the flow of heat and cause a partial obstruction to airflow.
I guess anodizing would work since the coating is only a couple of microns thick, but the thicker oxide layer does transfer heat less efficiently than a non-anodized part. I doubt that it would make enough of a difference to matter.
Black objects are better at radiating heat than white objects. As for whether or not that makes a difference in this application, only testing can show.
Make sense?

[Maxx Mazda]

I never said there is NO effect, jsut that the effects are negligable (sp?)

[voiceKoil]

I talked with Protege Garage about this recently. They said the black coloring has no measurable effect and is merely cosmetic.

Ive heard the same(cool)

ALSO, as many of you may or may not know, Aluminum is NOT the best material to use to make radiators/intercoolers because its thermal properties are not truely the best, they are just above average. Ill put it this way, its not cast iron. IT is light and easy to work with that is why it is used, so truely it just matters how well the intercooler is designed, so making the metal slightly less efficeint is not going to hurt anything.

DID a quick search and if you going to worry about a little powdercoat maybe you should get a core made out of Copper, which is a given, Silver or Gold of all things, They really kick Aluminums ass...

[ericrapp]

Ah so friggin damn pretty:
http://www.extremeturbosystems.com/images/Mazdaspeed-Blem4.jpg
But.......is this a **REAL BAD** idea for a daily driver? I know the bare aluminum would shed heat better but how bad is it to powder the entire TMIC? I am not 100% on FMIC and looking at TMIC now. Figures........
Man that thing is killer looking!!
Matt

It does look good. I have the 3.5 straight up but I am going to anodize the shroud plate. I think we can get close to the cosmic blue in color. We will leave the fins alone

[dkswim]

aviation wise sr-71 was painted black to aid in cooling as a side efect it made it harder to see. a good absorber of heat is also a good conductor aperently. who knew.

[trufanatic]

aviation wise sr-71 was painted black to aid in cooling as a side efect it made it harder to see. a good absorber of heat is also a good conductor aperently. who knew.

I'm air force so lets talk planes. the sr71 flew at 80-85thousand feet do you and to take a guess what the ambient temperature is at that altitude? The J58s used on the sr71 atomized and injested so much air to cool the aircraft that air temps were negative degrees..not to be an ass but totally irrelevant argument. And i can go on for days why the airforce actually uses black on its planes and what the actual composition does for stealth but back on topic.


Show me some proof, cause you've got your head up your ass. This has been beaten to death and it has no measurable difference... Stop over thinking it, and just realize that the amount of heat it actually "traps" is so small that ti's negligable.

WoW. you sir are a mojor TOOL. everyone else in this thread has the common sense that when you paint any metal surface it gets insulated.negligable difference, so that means there is one? so does that also mean that the more boost and hot air you put thru that thing will change negligable to significant? why buy something truely 100% performance oriented and take away a percentage from it for visual stimulation?. im not going to argue with you.....i'll make it easy, im going to tell you the same thing i use to tell my ex wife.....you win.

[SwampAss]

I'm air force so lets talk planes. the sr71 flew at 80-85thousand feet do you and to take a guess what the ambient temperature is at that altitude? The J58s used on the sr71 atomized and injested so much air to cool the aircraft that air temps were negative degrees..not to be an ass but totally irrelevant argument. And i can go on for days why the airforce actually uses black on its planes and what the actual composition does for stealth but back on topic.


To continue the off topic; ambient temps at altitude are almost irrelevant. We'd have a planet littered with space material if it was. Material that would have never burned up on entry to the earth's atmosphere. The friction of pushing air over a surface @ almost MACH 3 generates a lot of heat. I'm in the industry as well but from a missile standpoint.

[boostdog]

I didn't read the entire thread but I would not buy it if the whole thing is coated..also theres an old racers trick that some do by painting the bottom if intake manifolds white to disapate (SP?) heat faster/better..i assume that intercooler would not be as effecient as if it were not powdercoated..looks good though!

[Mid_Life_Crisis]

To continue the off topic; ambient temps at altitude are almost irrelevant. We'd have a planet littered with space material if it was. Material that would have never burned up on entry to the earth's atmosphere. The friction of pushing air over a surface @ almost MACH 3 generates a lot of heat. I'm in the industry as well but from a missile standpoint.

Why does the thought of you working on a missile system make me more than just a little nervous?

I can see it now...
"The way it comes back and does a flyby over the launcher before it goes after the target - that's funny shit, ain't it!"

[SwampAss]

hehe. In that case, I won't tell you anything about the rail gun.

[Mid_Life_Crisis]

I didn't read the entire thread but I would not buy it if the whole thing is coated..also theres an old racers trick that some do by painting the bottom if intake manifolds white to disapate (SP?) heat faster/better..i assume that intercooler would not be as effecient as if it were not powdercoated..looks good though!

White reflects heat. The idea there was to reflect heat coming up from the engine (we are talking V8s here) back down so the manifold is slower to heat up. This theoretically would keep the air/fuel charge coming in cooler and denser, which is good for the many reasons we all know.

Since you asked, the word is "dissipate".

[trufanatic]

To continue the off topic; ambient temps at altitude are almost irrelevant. We'd have a planet littered with space material if it was. Material that would have never burned up on entry to the earth's atmosphere. The friction of pushing air over a surface @ almost MACH 3 generates a lot of heat. I'm in the industry as well but from a missile standpoint.

agreed but it all boils down to the composition of the paint/material being used, so ths discussion is wayyy off. what used on AF planes and missiles isnt the same shit used on cars.

[enganear]

The purpose of the intercooler is to transfer heat from the gas inside to the gas outside by direct contact with both gases. Radiation is a negligible factor for this application, so forget about the color.

ANY coating, (paint, powder or anodizing) will reduce the heat transferred by adding another layer through which all heat must be transferred.

And yeah, bad spelling and/or lack of punctuation and capitalization is just offensive and reflects badly on the writer, IMHO.
-enganear

[Andrade08]

And yeah, bad spelling and/or lack of punctuation and capitalization is just offensive and reflects badly on the writer, IMHO.
-enganear

OK you know what........sorry! Sorry I spelled a word wrong. Sorry I offended people by spelling a word wrong. From now on I guess I will use spell check because ***I SPELL BAD*** Always have. I am good with numbers and I can build motors and trannys but I can't spell. **SORRY**


I just figured this being a **FORUM** I view it as a relaxing place to shoot the crap. I figured that I didn't have to worry about being perfect with all my punctuation, spelling and word usage but I guess I do because some people are offended by things like this and it makes me look ***BAD***....... It's not like I am typing the "F" word in my posts and threads like I see ALL over these forums. I do not use those abbreviated letters from texting that are all over this forum. But..............you know what.............SORRY! I will use spell check from here on in.

Back to the TMIC.........I am going to get a 3.25" set up and have the outer rim coated at a local powder coater I use. I want the rim in a flat black color. I am then going to use my Eastwood Co. flat black radiator paint on the cooler & tanks. 3 thin coats should do it. I want to try and copy the "MZR 2.3 DISI Turbo" on the front tank also. I think it would look cool?

[SwampAss]

http://www.iespell.com/

it's free and saves a ton of headaches.

[Mid_Life_Crisis]

http://www.iespell.com/

it's free and saves a ton of headaches.

That looks pretty cool. I haven't installed it yet, but I will.

For those that don't use IE, here's a little trick to make spellchecking easier.
Most of us are at work, which means we have Word, or something similar, on our computers. Create a Word document and stick it in the corner of your desktop. Name it Spellcheck. Any time you aren't sure about a spelling and want to be sure you get it right, paste into the document. Word will let you know if it is wrong and offer suggestions. When you close the doc, select "No" to the offer to save changes, and it'll always be empty and clean.
You might paste the link to your favorite online dictionary in it and save it so that if word suggests something you don't recognize you can just open a dictionary with one click.

[aaronc7]

noobz, firefox has it built in!

[Maxx Mazda]

I'm air force so lets talk planes. the sr71 flew at 80-85thousand feet do you and to take a guess what the ambient temperature is at that altitude? The J58s used on the sr71 atomized and injested so much air to cool the aircraft that air temps were negative degrees..not to be an ass but totally irrelevant argument.

For an "air force" guy (I'm a pilot by the way) you don't seem to grasp the concept of speed and friction very well... The SR-71 flew of speeds around Mach 2.8-3.1 at 85,000'ASL. We know that on a standard day, air cools 2*C per thousand feet. So at FL850 we're looking at a temp of -155*C. Now at a speed of Mach 3, it doesn't matter. The friction of the air around the fuselage gets SO hot at that velocity, that the plane actually expands because of it. (You'll remember that the SR71 leaks fuel while on the ground because it hasn't yet expanded to seal itself. - But you already knew that I'm sure.) Even the Concorde which flew at a lowely 2 times the speed of sound in comparison stretched an average of 7 inches in flight due to the intense heat created. Even on a commercial jet, like a 767 for example flying at a measly M.78 will make the temperature of the air around it (TAT or total air temperature) rise up to 25*C over the still air temperature (SAT.)

So back to what you said, INSANE cooling was required on the aircraft, yes, but the temps of the aircraft were never even close to "freezing" even with sufficient cooling. The SR-71 didn't really need stealth, it flew higher and faster than any enemy radar or SAM's could even fathom of reaching, and I'll have to do more research to determine exactly why it was painted black, but I doubt it had anything to do with temperature...



WoW. you sir are a mojor TOOL. everyone else in this thread has the common sense that when you paint any metal surface it gets insulated.negligable difference, so that means there is one? so does that also mean that the more boost and hot air you put thru that thing will change negligable to significant? why buy something truely 100% performance oriented and take away a percentage from it for visual stimulation?. im not going to argue with you.....i'll make it easy, im going to tell you the same thing i use to tell my ex wife.....you win.

You don't seem to understand, the difference is SO SMALL that it basically wouldn't matter either way. I doubt you'd see a 0.1*C difference between a painted intercooler and a bare aluminum one.

[jbiird317]

ahh guys cmon, calm it down. First of all we have debated this topic MANY times already (please use that search function). The jury is still out on the actual differences (no one has dyno's to prove it). My personal opinion is that black indeed will make a difference, but it may be so small that you wouldnt notice it without the use of a dyno.

[zoomspeed3zoom]

I like how the discussion went from the tmic to spelling. Anyone know who won this year's Scripps National Spelling Bee? Seriously though, its annoying but to post responses to someone's spelling imo is even more annoying.

[Mid_Life_Crisis]

noobz, firefox has it built in!

Some of us are using work computers and can't install whatever we want.

[dkswim]

here is the book that talked about the paint and the a-12/sr-71 and cooling of the planes components was supplied by the fuel of the plane. the paint was just for surface temps you'll notice on the a=12 only the leading edges were painted black. Skunk Works: A Personal Memoir of My Years of Lockheed by Ben R Rich. sorry to have got this thred so far off topic with useless info. as for the tmic it looks neat adds to an ofen hood stelthness.

[Maxx Mazda]

ahh guys cmon, calm it down. First of all we have debated this topic MANY times already (please use that search function). The jury is still out on the actual differences (no one has dyno's to prove it). My personal opinion is that black indeed will make a difference, but it may be so small that you wouldnt notice it without the use of a dyno.

That's what I've been saying! My radiator has a big red "PWR" logo painted on it, so that means it cools less? I don't think so... Like I said form the beginning, the difference in effectiveness, even if the sonbitch was COMPLETELY coated, it would make such a little difference... If you goated it with heat insulating momo foam, sure, but it's not like powdercoating or paint even is gonna "retain" heat...

[jbiird317]

That's what I've been saying! My radiator has a big red "PWR" logo painted on it, so that means it cools less? I don't think so... Like I said form the beginning, the difference in effectiveness, even if the sonbitch was COMPLETELY coated, it would make such a little difference... If you goated it with heat insulating momo foam, sure, but it's not like powdercoating or paint even is gonna "retain" heat...

well if you look at the scientific principle behind it, black painted material will retain more energy than the uncoated original, whether it is energy from the sun or heat from the engine, energy is energy. But i will agree, the difference is most likely negligible on this scale.

[funkyman]

Well i have never come across black intercooler in my life,this must be a first:-)However i believe that colour has no effect on conduction or convection of heat so you should be fine.However radiation is another matter.I would have gone with body color and matching hoses:-)

[enganear]

well if you look at the scientific principle behind it, black painted material will retain more energy than the uncoated original, whether it is energy from the sun or heat from the engine, energy is energy.

What the H does that mean and how is it relevant to the heat transferred from the hot air passing through the intercooler to the cooler air passing across the intercooler? I call bullshit. We are not talking about transfer of heat by radiation, just direct hot air to aluminum to cooler air conduction.

Paint is just another layer through which heat must pass. Copper/brass radiators are painted because they corrode otherwise. Copper also has several times the thermal conductivity of aluminum and can afford the reduction in thermal performance. Most but not all aluminum alloys are sealed by their own oxide layer and do not need to be painted.

If you want to buy a high performance intercooler and then paint it to be pretty, you are certainly within your rights. Just don't think you are not decreasing the heat transfer capacity, because you are.
-enganear

[jbiird317]

What the H does that mean and how is it relevant to the heat transferred from the hot air passing through the intercooler to the cooler air passing across the intercooler? I call bullshit. We are not talking about transfer of heat by radiation, just direct hot air to aluminum to cooler air conduction.

I guess I was referring more to the problem of heat soak, and someone mentioned that painting this would only cause a problem if it was exposed to the sun, so I was trying to point out they are wrong.


Paint is just another layer through which heat must pass. Copper/brass radiators are painted because they corrode otherwise. Copper also has several times the thermal conductivity of aluminum and can afford the reduction in thermal performance. Most but not all aluminum alloys are sealed by their own oxide layer and do not need to be painted.

If you want to buy a high performance intercooler and then paint it to be pretty, you are certainly within your rights. Just don't think you are not decreasing the heat transfer capacity, because you are.
-enganear

i agree with this completely, any addition to the metal will have a negative effect on the ability of the IC to dissipate heat, whether its paint, powdercoat, whatever...but I really dont know how much of an effect a painted IC will have at this scale. I would very much be interested to see some numbers to back this up, or maybe even prove me wrong. I contacted protegegarage about this, but the answer I got was not what I was looking for...

[TheDoc]

Well i have never come across black intercooler in my life,this must be a first:-)However i believe that colour has no effect on conduction or convection of heat so you should be fine.However radiation is another matter.I would have gone with body color and matching hoses:-)


i agree with this completely, any addition to the metal will have a negative effect on the ability of the IC to dissipate heat, whether its paint, powdercoat, whatever...but I really dont know how much of an effect a painted IC will have at this scale. I would very much be interested to see some numbers to back this up, or maybe even prove me wrong. I contacted protegegarage about this, but the answer I got was not what I was looking for...

I happened to be reading this during my lunch break and while it was fresh on my mind I took a walk outside and confirmed my belief.

We have a fleet of trucks equipped with Detroit series 60 engines and they vary between Kenworth T-600s, T-2000s, and Frieghtliner Columbias. Albeit the application is a little different, the charge air coolers (and radiators) on the Kenworths are painted entirely black. The paint does chip away quite a bit... The Freightliners have a plain aluminum finish.

But between the Freightliner's and Kenworth's (equipped with the same 14L DDECIV version of the engine) they maintain almost exactly the same boost pressure and heat level when geared the same and operating properly. If I find time I'll go find the test reports we made when we purchased the units.

The thing to keep in mind is that these are turbo diesel vehicles, air-to-air and front mounted as opposed to our top mount, and I guess those arguments could be made.. but just I'm offering the example that on a larger scale application (14L/6cyl) the same engine showed no difference in performance between the painted and not painted versions.

[Maxx Mazda]

...the same engine showed no difference in performance between the painted and not painted versions.

Wicked info. Are you a HD mechanic?

[TheDoc]

Wicked info. Are you a HD mechanic?

Technically no. I work in a diesel shop. I have an advanced knowledge of the mechanics. I am more on the diagnostic end as a "Maintenance Operator". We have around 250 power units on the road across the country and about 400 trailers. If and when something breaks, I'm the guy to call. I find somewhere to get it fixed, argue the price/logistics of getting it done, and get it on the road with minimal downtime.. haha. It's a fun job, to be honest, and I love that I found something where I can use my college education (i.e. not entirely blue collar) and love of big loud machines in the same place.

[jbiird317]

nice info doc, i would def love to see those numbers. although like you said, front mounted vs. top mounted does have a difference in radiated heat (heat soak), so the comparison is not exact, but still very helpful

[TheDoc]

Okay, about three years ago we did a comparative test between the last of the KW's to carry the Series 60 engine before Mr. Penskee bought Detroit and they became Freightliner-exclusive. We lined up a brand new T-2 and Columbia same engine and did a series of tests (dyno included) between the two (air cooler color was not something on my mind at the time lol).

I can't find that paperwork. Sadly.

What I did come up with are some copies of service paperwork within the last year of vendors running our units on dynos. The two examples I'm providing are vendors performing dyno runs on one Freightliner and one Kenworth T-2000 with 550,000 miles on each of them. Both were recently serviced (within a month). Both are equipped with the same gearset, trans (Eaton-Fuller 10sp Lightning Top-2) and diff. Both with the same ECU parameters; running 22.5psi boost.

We deem 15% power variation to be within the norm. These are two of our more meticulously maintained units, however, and when they went into the shop for power loss we decided it was best to have them tested on the dynos.

The Kenworth, with it's black charge air cooler, runs 410hp at the wheels and the Freightliner, with the aluminum, runs 414hp. The KW was done at a Detroit dealer and the Freightliner at a Freightliner dealer. A 4HP deviation is remarkably small considering the multitude of things that can affect a truck's power level. I did pick these two examples, in particular, because of their similar attributes, however, with the number of other things that could affect the power rating, it is close enough that I would say the HP ratings are "the same".

Lastly, when we ran our test, every temperature we could come up with, related to the turbo, ran within 5 degrees of each other, throughout the duration of the test. The tests were computer controlled with self logging ACER sensors.

Given this information, I think the biggest thing left to figure out is whether the IC being front mount instead of top makes a big difference.

[funkyman]

I will repeat it differently .It is scientifical fact and no room for argument that colour has no effect on conduction or convection of heat so you should be fine.However radiation is another matter.Radiation meaning light.I think that as a theme you should have gone with body colour or if the theme were to be red like red calipers hoses,struts then red would have been a good choice but black looks cool too.

[enganear]

I happened to be reading this during my lunch break and while it was fresh on my mind I took a walk outside and confirmed my belief.

We have a fleet of trucks equipped with Detroit series 60 engines and they vary between Kenworth T-600s, T-2000s, and Frieghtliner Columbias. Albeit the application is a little different, the charge air coolers (and radiators) on the Kenworths are painted entirely black. The paint does chip away quite a bit... The Freightliners have a plain aluminum finish.

But between the Freightliner's and Kenworth's (equipped with the same 14L DDECIV version of the engine) they maintain almost exactly the same boost pressure and heat level when geared the same and operating properly. If I find time I'll go find the test reports we made when we purchased the units.

The thing to keep in mind is that these are turbo diesel vehicles, air-to-air and front mounted as opposed to our top mount, and I guess those arguments could be made.. but just I'm offering the example that on a larger scale application (14L/6cyl) the same engine showed no difference in performance between the painted and not painted versions.

What is in the picture? That can't be a charge cooler in the front, its only like an inch thick and has a tiny line going to it. It looks like a cooler for an Allison transmission. Is the second heat exchanger the charge cooler? Is it aluminum or tinned copper? Boost pressure is not a direct function of intercooler efficiency, but horsepower is. I used to be a product engineer for Volvo, big trucks are fun!
-enganear

[TheDoc]

The fact is anything on top of it is going to retain the radiant heat... it's a matter to what extent. More important than ANY color is the thickness of the material applied.

I get the feeling the charge air cooler on my trucks are painted to prevent the look of corrosion that occurs... I would look into a ceramic coating (which could actually dissipate radiant heat more effectively) if I were deadset on coving my intercooler with anything.

[TheDoc]

What is in the picture? That can't be a charge cooler in the front, its only like an inch thick and has a tiny line going to it. It looks like a cooler for an Allison transmission. Is the second heat exchanger the charge cooler? Is it aluminum or tinned copper? Boost pressure is not a direct function of intercooler efficiency, but horsepower is. I used to be a product engineer for Volvo, big trucks are fun!
-enganear

Trans cooler, charge air, radiator (can't see the radiator)- in that order. I couldn't get a decent picture of it without standing in the hood and I didn't think anyone would pick out the difference. haha so kudos. It's an aluminum cooler. And yes. Big trucks are very fun. The dairy company I worked for before this ran some Volvos. We used the bust up the suspensions all the time hauling milk in the reefer trailers.

[jbiird317]

I will repeat it differently .It is scientifical fact and no room for argument that colour has no effect on conduction or convection of heat so you should be fine.However radiation is another matter.Radiation meaning light.I think that as a theme you should have gone with body colour or if the theme were to be red like red calipers hoses,struts then red would have been a good choice but black looks cool too.

im sorry, but your argument just lost all credibility. Just how true is a scientifical fact?

[ericrapp]

A pleasant conversation gentlemen ,thanks for letting me listen in.

[jbiird317]

well I gotta say, all this info really makes me want someone to test these theories out on the ms3! (Ken are you listening?!) Doc's tests and comparison make a whole lot of sense, but obviously this will be slightly different than what we will see on a top mount application. If we took a ms3 with plain aluminum TMIC vs PC black TMIC, ultimately I think we would see the same results on the initial dyno's, but if the cars were allowed to driven under normal conditions for a while then dyno'd, that would be the true test.

One thing is for certain, doc & enganeer's knowledge > mine, very interesting stuff.

[funkyman]

Who cares i mean who else is going to paint their intercoolers black for heaven sakes:-)

[TheDoc]

Well, I spent last evening doing my taxes and pondering this whole conversation... And towards the end of the evening when I realized that I'd be recieving a sizable tax return along with my "economic stimulus" check, I'll have some spare cash to spend. Yay.

I have a speed3 with an untouched intercooler. I'd be willing to put together a test where we could run the engine to heatsoak conditions, dyno it with a stock intercooler... coat the intercooler with a ceramic paint, heatsoak it, and run it on the same dyno again.

Painting the intercooler with an enamel paint doesn't quite make sense when there is colorized coating available for "perforamnce exhaust-type" applications. If I'm going to do this, I'd like to give myself the best chance I can not lower performance.

This would be an interesting test because in exhaust applications ceramic coating is used to dissipate heat more effeciently, but on the same token anything being coated on top of the intercooler runs a chance of lowering it's effectiveness under a heavily radiated heat condition. It could really go either way.

Worst comes to worst I blow a little tax money on a more effective IC than stock... I'm not very worried about it.

I live within 10 miles of PG, Ken, and the guys, and I've met them before... so I'd be willing to work with them on this if there's any interest. I'm somewhat new to the area so I don't even know where to go for a dyno around here.

Anyone interested in seeing this?

[enganear]

Well, I spent last evening doing my taxes and pondering this whole conversation... And towards the end of the evening when I realized that I'd be recieving a sizable tax return along with my "economic stimulus" check, I'll have some spare cash to spend. Yay.

I have a speed3 with an untouched intercooler. I'd be willing to put together a test where we could run the engine to heatsoak conditions, dyno it with a stock intercooler... coat the intercooler with a ceramic paint, heatsoak it, and run it on the same dyno again.

Painting the intercooler with an enamel paint doesn't quite make sense when there is colorized coating available for "perforamnce exhaust-type" applications. If I'm going to do this, I'd like to give myself the best chance I can not lower performance.

This would be an interesting test because in exhaust applications ceramic coating is used to dissipate heat more effeciently, but on the same token anything being coated on top of the intercooler runs a chance of lowering it's effectiveness under a heavily radiated heat condition. It could really go either way.

Worst comes to worst I blow a little tax money on a more effective IC than stock... I'm not very worried about it.

I live within 10 miles of PG, Ken, and the guys, and I've met them before... so I'd be willing to work with them on this if there's any interest. I'm somewhat new to the area so I don't even know where to go for a dyno around here.

Anyone interested in seeing this?

Check out the ceramic coatings a little more carefully. They are not used on exhaust applications because they dissipate heat more effectively. they are used because ceramics will typically survive exhaust temperatures better than non-ceramic coatings. The coefficient of heat transfer is actually quite poor for ceramics, that is why ceramics are used to line kilns. You do not need the performance of ceramics at intercooler temperatures and it would probably be your worst choice for heat transmission.

What kind of inlet air temps do you see on a turbocharged diesel?
-enganear

[ericrapp]

Just checking, our IAT temperatures are between 95-105 with either sri or Cai. This is based on dicussions I imagine both you guys were aware of. Please correct if wrong. Just trying to guess where this ends up! And do some testing. But Doc, do it on the stock ic, You already have a baseline. Pull it and treat it with whatever you decide then run it,measure, etc. Then get the Upgraded cooler anyways from the sponsoring group because it is your best investment.

[TheDoc]

We usually see IAT of between 70 and 90 on the fresh air intake, the biggest variation is between idling and moving, obviously. The secondary intake, past the compressor is upwards of 250. You taught me something on the ceramics. It was something that had come to mind, trying to think of high heat resistant materials. You are definitely correct though, Mr. Enganear.

I'd definitely be willing to test out the theory on my stock IC, but I'd like to come up with a material to paint it with that could potentially yield some interesting results (interesting besides a change in color).

Any thoughts on what that material could be?

[ericrapp]

We usually see IAT of between 70 and 90 on the fresh air intake, the biggest variation is between idling and moving, obviously. The secondary intake, past the compressor is upwards of 250. You taught me something on the ceramics. It was something that had come to mind, trying to think of high heat resistant materials. You are definitely correct though, Mr. Enganear.

I'd definitely be willing to test out the theory on my stock IC, but I'd like to come up with a material to paint it with that could potentially yield some interesting results (interesting besides a change in color).

Any thoughts on what that material could be?

Thinking.....