I was messing with my shift light today and.....

[Andrade08]

SHIT!! This car really falls on it's face at 6000RPMs!!! It's a dead day over here for me with the wife out and the temps in the low 40s. I was bored and took the Speed out for some "spirited driving". While looking at my tach watching for the red light of the shift light to flash I noticed that my 5500RPM setting on the light was pretty dead on with the Tach. I figured that 5500RPM setting to be a little low. I started raising it by 100RPMs until I was around 5900RPMs. The car felt best at a setting of 5700RPMs on the light and me shifting quick but not trying to be the FLASH at it. With the light at 5700RPMs I always got through the shift in all gears (well...2-6 I didn't try the 1-2 *YET*) before the stock Tach hit 6000RPMs. I took the car past 6000rpms for shits and giggles for the 1st time since I have owned it. It has over 5000 miles on it now so I figured what the hell. Man, as soon as she hits 6100RPMs the boost falls real fast to 10PSi and under and the power **DIES**!! Do the cams in this car really have that short of a power band or is the stock top mount intercooler really that restrictive in the upper RPM band?????? My boost with the Cobb SRI and the Forge BPV hold ROCK steady to just under 6000RPMs and then it's like all HELL breaks loose and the boost and the car shits itself! The other strange thing is the more I romped on the car the more powerfull it felt?
I guess my point is...........Guys with the ETS 3"-3.5" top mounts.......are you holding boost longer in the upper RPM range? What about front mounts? I was/am looking at the Corksport unit.
OK that's all..........little bored.

[FMOS Racing]

Hey Matt!

Will your mods make the turbo hold boost or does the ECU still have control over the boost curve through the wastegate? Sorry, I don't know all the details about the mods yet - only had the car a few days, so bear with me.

On my stock car, it's pretty obvious even without a boost gauge that the ECU is turning down the boost in the upper RPMs. The car feels mean through the mid range and really starts to lay down up top. No reason that should be cam-oriented that I can imagine.

BTW, I'll be in Andover from March 23 to April 30 (probably longer but that's the current length of the contract) doing some system startup for Wyeth.

Jeff S.

[AutoXRacer]

The reason for the loss of power at the top end is the throttle plate closing...
Yes, with mods it holds boost/power longer, but still falls...

Its the ECU tuning that partially closes the throttle plate at those RPMs...

[FMOS Racing]

Ok, that's a dirty, rotten trick... smart engineering, though.

[AutoXRacer]

The AP cult crowd is hoping Cobb will override the throttle plate in hopes of having full power on the top end...

[MS3077]

I think Mazda doesn't want us breaking this car

[Andrade08]

Hey Matt!

Will your mods make the turbo hold boost or does the ECU still have control over the boost curve through the wastegate? Sorry, I don't know all the details about the mods yet - only had the car a few days, so bear with me.

On my stock car, it's pretty obvious even without a boost gauge that the ECU is turning down the boost in the upper RPMs. The car feels mean through the mid range and really starts to lay down up top. No reason that should be cam-oriented that I can imagine.

BTW, I'll be in Andover from March 23 to April 30 (probably longer but that's the current length of the contract) doing some system startup for Wyeth.

Jeff S.
LOL!! You found me!!!!!!! Only a few NLOC guys know I drive this now. I just wanted some thing that was still a little quick but was OK on gas. I miss the truck. I am thinking of getting another one and just tinkering with it. Ah.......who knows.
Good thing is this little speed3 has a gajillion FoMoCo parts on it! (laugh)
Go look at the insides of the BIG front brake calipers. And your coils under the intercooler. So..........your going to leave this stock right? Like me? (yes)

[AutoXRacer]

Good thing is this little speed3 has a gajillion FoMoCo parts on it! (laugh)
Go look at the insides of the BIG front brake calipers. And your coils under the intercooler.


So does this mean there is a possibility that Ford release a MS3 like car...? (huh)
Maybe a SVT Focus with our setup? (omg)

[VermZ06]

So does this mean there is a possibility that Ford release a MS3 like car...? (huh)
Maybe a SVT Focus with our setup? (omg)

There might be a slight possibility of a new svt focus, but even the redesigned U.S. focus that just came out uses the same old underpinnings as the outgoing model and does not use the same chassis as the current euro focus or the Mazda3...so with that said and the major troubles ford is currently facing i highly doubt there will be a new U.S. SVT focus anytime soon...maybe ford will offer something with a little more get-up-and-go once the MS3's days are over...

[MS3077]

There might be a slight possibility of a new svt focus, but even the redesigned U.S. focus that just came out uses the same old underpinnings as the outgoing model and does not use the same chassis as the current euro focus or the Mazda3...so with that said and the major troubles ford is currently facing i highly doubt there will be a new U.S. SVT focus anytime soon...maybe ford will offer something with a little more get-up-and-go once the MS3's days are over...


Cacaroches will rule the world before this happens...

[AutoXRacer]

Cacaroches will rule the world before this happens...


(scratch) Roaches already rule the world... (lol2)

[FMOS Racing]

Will it stay stock? C'mon, Matt... I think you know me better than that! I bought the MS CAI before I left the dealership. ;)

I installed an intercooled Vortech setup on a friend's SVT Focus last winter. Really made that a totally different animal. I let him drive the MS3 this past Saturday when a group came over to use the garage and he was pretty impressed. I don't know if I can run with him up top, but the short end of the track vs his car is mine.

Comparing the two cars, though, the MS3 is a much nicer car in every aspect. And that's coming from a big SVT fan.

So what drives the throttle motor? If it's voltage or current, it seems like it would be relatively simple and cheap to make a WOT override. Say it's a 0-5V signal, build a circuit with an arming switch and a trigger, much like a nitrous system. Arm it and when you go WOT, it keeps 5V fed to the throttle, no matter what the ECU does. As soon as you lift off the throttle or disarm the circuit, the ECU gets control back (that could make for some potentially jerky transitions, I suppose).

However, if it's frequency or some binary stepper motor type setup, someone smarter than me will have to come up with the circuit, though I still think it would be doable.

Is the ECU fiddling with the throttle plate at lower pedal angles, too? Is that why the car has such an amazing surge at part throttle and so little lag?

[MS3077]

Is the ECU fiddling with the throttle plate at lower pedal angles, too? Is that why the car has such an amazing surge at part throttle and so little lag?

I think that has something to do with the DISI
Direct Injection Spark Ignition (DISI)

[Andrade08]

Will it stay stock? C'mon, Matt... I think you know me better than that! I bought the MS CAI before I left the dealership. ;)

I installed an intercooled Vortech setup on a friend's SVT Focus last winter. Really made that a totally different animal. I let him drive the MS3 this past Saturday when a group came over to use the garage and he was pretty impressed. I don't know if I can run with him up top, but the short end of the track vs his car is mine.

Comparing the two cars, though, the MS3 is a much nicer car in every aspect. And that's coming from a big SVT fan.

So what drives the throttle motor? If it's voltage or current, it seems like it would be relatively simple and cheap to make a WOT override. Say it's a 0-5V signal, build a circuit with an arming switch and a trigger, much like a nitrous system. Arm it and when you go WOT, it keeps 5V fed to the throttle, no matter what the ECU does. As soon as you lift off the throttle or disarm the circuit, the ECU gets control back (that could make for some potentially jerky transitions, I suppose).

However, if it's frequency or some binary stepper motor type setup, someone smarter than me will have to come up with the circuit, though I still think it would be doable.

Is the ECU fiddling with the throttle plate at lower pedal angles, too? Is that why the car has such an amazing surge at part throttle and so little lag?

Ah....it's not as cut and dry as the throttle blade not being 100% open Jeff. I have been reading up on the ECM programing on this thing. It's comanded torque from the ECM. Look at it like your timing curve. Down low you give it full advance at say 28* on your small block, then as the RPMs go up you scale it down to say 22* at 6000RPMs. Mazda uses the throttle like this on this motor. Not only is it controlling the throttle blade but it is also controlling the wastegate.......boost. The AFRs are in the low 10s on this car also. I am thinking Mazda tryed to make this car SAFE. Just opening the throttle blade to 100% will not change the commanded load at the RPM/boost your at.
At least this is what I am reading anyway. You do not get your full 15.6PSI in 1st or 2nd gear either. You get like 9PSI in 1st and then around 12 in second. Some times you do not get it all in 3rd either. And that is with the traction controll on. Off I think the ECM bleeds off even more. I wonder if an A9L and a Tweecer would work on this car? LMAO!!!!!!!!! (drive2)

Edit......I think I typed load when I wanted Torque.

[redrocketz]

There might be a slight possibility of a new svt focus, but even the redesigned U.S. focus that just came out uses the same old underpinnings as the outgoing model and does not use the same chassis as the current euro focus or the Mazda3...so with that said and the major troubles ford is currently facing i highly doubt there will be a new U.S. SVT focus anytime soon...maybe ford will offer something with a little more get-up-and-go once the MS3's days are over...

Ford kind of disbanded SVT so the likely hood is very low. They are discussing (from a reliable inside source) bringing the new RS over here though.

[MS3077]

Ford kind of disbanded SVT so the likely hood is very low. They are discussing (from a reliable inside source) bringing the new RS over here though.

I believe this.

[SuperProtege5]

If they do it may be a stepping stone in the right direction to save Ford.

[FMOS Racing]

But you can control boost with a MBC or EBC. So if you basically take control of the wastegate and the throttle blade, then what can the ECU do?

I'm certain all that drop off is to make people WANT to shift before redline. I'm thinking that at the stock settings, these cars would probably live forever... but I want control wherever I can get it.

I would bet good money that these little suckers could trap 105-106 mph at stock boost level if you could keep that throttle open all the way through the rev range. That sluff off at the top is, for me, a major killjoy. Moderating the boost in 1st and 2nd doesn't really bother me - more would just mean more spinning.

[redrocketz]

well there is no way of controlling the throttle plate as of yet.

[detsilverms3]

Ford kind of disbanded SVT so the likely hood is very low. They are discussing (from a reliable inside source) bringing the new RS over here though.

i looked it up and i'm not sure ford will bring that over here as the focus is still a hatchback in Europe. And the RS is slated to be made on the ST platform so i don't know.Ford Europe Car Listings (http://www.ford.co.uk/ns7/all_cars/-/-/-/-/-/-) also right now the ST is just barely available.

[FMOS Racing]

well there is no way of controlling the throttle plate as of yet.

That's what I needed to know. Guess I need to see what I can come up with.

Are there control strategy documents for the drive-by-wire setup? Or is that wishful thinking?

[redrocketz]

i looked it up and i'm not sure ford will bring that over here as the focus is still a hatchback in Europe. And the RS is slated to be made on the ST platform so i don't know.Ford Europe Car Listings (http://www.ford.co.uk/ns7/all_cars/-/-/-/-/-/-) also right now the ST is just barely available.

there is talk on the inside of bringing the car over here it's that simple not building off the platform we have but just shipping the car over as is. Alot of people are saying it wont happen but from what I understand from some people in Detroit that there is a possibility.

[FMOS Racing]

Blah, nevermind. Software controlled, H-bridge driven stepper motor. Dammit, Jim, I'm a ME, not an EE.

I wonder if I can just run a piece of stringe into the cockpit? ;)

[Sierra117]

I would bet good money that these little suckers could trap 105-106 mph at stock boost level if you could keep that throttle open all the way through the rev range. That sluff off at the top is, for me, a major killjoy. Moderating the boost in 1st and 2nd doesn't really bother me - more would just mean more spinning.

A local guy with a Vibrant DP back and Mazdaspeed intake ran a 13.39 @ 104.33, I don't think its a matter of the throttle plate closing right now. Mrlilguy did a good write up on it.

[Andrade08]

But you can control boost with a MBC or EBC. So if you basically take control of the wastegate and the throttle blade, then what can the ECU do?




You can put a manual boost controller on yes. But you will have to run what is called around here a "MAP sensor voltage clamp". As soon as the ECM sees boost pressure over 18PSI for more than 1 second it throws the boost cut. The car falls on it's face and the CEL comes on. If you put a MAP clamp on and set it to say 3.5v then your ECM will never see the added boost and all is well.......except........part throttle boost. This is why I just sold my Turbosmart MBC and ATP boost cut killer on this site. I didn't want to bother with this little Turbo spooling up to 15psi at 1/2 throttle. I am just going to waite it out for a Tuner/flasher and up the boost in the ECM itself so the stock boost solenoid can progressivly controll the boost at all throttle positions. Safer and better for the Turbo..................So I've read.

[FMOS Racing]

One of the things I love about turbos compared to superchargers is that they make a lot of boost at part throttle... not sure why that would be a bad thing? The turbo can make full boost at part throttle turning fewer rpms than it takes to make it at full throttle, so I can't see why it would be bad for the turbo, either?

Sure makes for nice towing. ;)

[FMOS Racing]

Mathematically the shift points on this thing work out to about 5800 in 1st and 2nd, 5500 in 3rd and 4th. I want my other 1000 rpms! :)

[Andrade08]

One of the things I love about turbos compared to superchargers is that they make a lot of boost at part throttle... not sure why that would be a bad thing? The turbo can make full boost at part throttle turning fewer rpms than it takes to make it at full throttle, so I can't see why it would be bad for the turbo, either?

Sure makes for nice towing. ;)

I am not too sure Jeff. I have just been reading about this car and the ECM get's mad at some things. There is a thread some place with some one talking about the stock boost solenoid design and how the ECM handles part throttle boost and what not. For some reason the car goes lean I guess if it makes too much part throttle boost with a MBC.
I also wanted to do a down pipe but there are so many people talking about floating seals and others saying that theory is nuts. I have no idea so I am going to just waite. Type in smoking turbo in the search and get a bag of pop corn and sit back. These motors in the MS3, MS6 and CX-7 seem to have a fair amount of "bad" turbos. At least that is how it *SEEMS* on the internet. But you know all too well how things are in forums. It's always the end of the world and Nancy Negative showing up at every party. The glass is never half full. It's always half empty and about to fall on the floor.

[AutoXRacer]

I also wanted to do a down pipe but there are so many people talking about floating seals and others saying that theory is nuts. I have no idea so I am going to just waite. Type in smoking turbo in the search and get a bag of pop corn and sit back. These motors in the MS3, MS6 and CX-7 seem to have a fair amount of "bad" turbos. At least that is how it *SEEMS* on the internet. But you know all too well how things are in forums. It's always the end of the world and Nancy Negative showing up at every party. The glass is never half full. It's always half empty and about to fall on the floor.


Just to clear up the confusion... Regarding the smoke on the MS3, the 2007 model year was equipped with defective Hitachi-Warner turbos with bad seals. I confirmed this with a couple of vendors that researched the K04 turbo. Anyway, on the 2007 models its a hit or miss thing. Your car can be burning oil/leaking oil through the turbo seals without any smoking signs since the two catalytic converters mask the problem. Thats why when some owners have upgraded their DP and deleted both or one catalytic converter, their cars start smoking; or even install a test/mid pipe.
Like I said, in the 2007 its a hit or miss thing...

With the 2008 models, only approximately two have had this problem (within forum members); may have been early production 2008s. I have a 2008 with a DP and I have zero smoke (knock on wood)...

If you plan on upgrading your exhaust go right ahead and do it. Its better to know whether your turbo is leaking or not so you can fix the problem.

[AutoXRacer]

I just found this in another thread...


Can i just add something. i work at a mazda dealership . what i've seen and heard is that it's mainly affects anyone that has a 07' pr later model. '08's like mine (YAY) haven't been having this issue. don't know if this is a bad bunch of turbos that mazda got or what but thats what i've seen. main reason why most poeple suddenly see this smoke after removing cats and doing DP installs is because a cat. is kind of like a filter for the exhaust in some ways of one of the jobs it does not the only but one. When doing a DP install specially a full DP not just a test pipe you're now removing one big ass cat converter and also a little one. some ways this is good because if you're still under warranty you'll notice your bad turbo and get it fixed right away. if you go into a dealership with after market DP installed your a idiot unless the dealership is like the one that the person who started this thread went to cause they seem really cool about mod's. unfortunitly most dealership aren't like that. it's a pain i know but put the stock DP back on and take it in and get it fixed. There is a dozen ways to tell if the turbo is bad other then just smoke so don't just go in saying i saw it smoking cause when you go in for service it more then likely won't be smoking now with the stock stuff back on and they'll more then likely say they couldn't duplicate the problem and come pick your car up. The letter mazda sent out is true mazda is well aware of this concern and have even asked some other dealerships that i have friends at that they want pictures of the car just to make sure everything is stock or with in mazdas green parts system ( i.e. speed CAI is a green part will not viod warranty ).

They design of the turbo needing back pressure i would say is false. The turbo we use on our cars is the same or like the same as other car companies use and if that was the case all would be having this problem. Also to give you guys a heads up my friends turbo went up on his 07' his warranty was voided completely so i can't help him anymore so i've called around looking for a company that would just rebuild it for him. The few companies i've found that have fixed MS3's blown seal issues will no longer rebuild ours because of serveral units they've re built keep coming back with blown seals again so there seems to be more to this. sucks for 07' don't know why yet but 08's or 08' 1/2's don't seem to be affected as bad.


also it still cold out in some parts of the U.S. the weather is crazy right now sunny and seventy where i am one minute and cold as hell and 30 the next day. cold days in my area or near it i live in maryland. you'll see smoke from your car just like you see smoke when you breath when it's cold out. just check what color the smoke is before you freak out. i've seen bone stock MS3 belt out black smoke or some smoke at WOT runs alittle worse when you have a test pipe or exhaust. But check the color before you think it's blown. a another easy way is remove the TMIC and look inside your pipes and your BOV if it;s coated in oil your turbo is probally blown. there will be alittle bit of oil in there but when it's coated its very noticeable trust me you'll see what i'm talking about.

[MS3077]

Wow! Glad I didn't jump on a 07 when they first came out...

- How can you tell when your MS3 was produced?
- And What would be considered an early production model 08?

[Kobyoshi]

Wow! Glad I didn't jump on a 07 when they first came out...

- How can you tell when your MS3 was produced?
- And What would be considered an early production model 08?

I NEVER buy the first year of a model change/introduction for just that reason.

Wait a minute...there was that one time with the 1999 Yamaha R6 I bought, nevermind.

[AutoXRacer]

- How can you tell when your MS3 was produced?
- And What would be considered an early production model 08?


You can check your production date in the drivers side door jam.
I don't know what would be considered an early model 2008...

[Mid_Life_Crisis]

I NEVER buy the first year of a model change/introduction for just that reason.



When they tell you that there is only supposed to be one year of production of the car, it is kind of hard to avoid that situation. Of course, in this case, they LIED!

[AutoXRacer]

When they tell you that there is only supposed to be one year of production of the car, it is kind of hard to avoid that situation. Of course, in this case, they LIED!

Who told you that? (huh)
Mazdaspeed always releases their cars for a two year production run...limited production though....

[v0ice]

The AP cult crowd is hoping Cobb will override the throttle plate in hopes of having full power on the top end...


from Cobb on other forums....

"We Have not seen much in just keeping the throttle open. Remember due to the complex interrelationships in the ECU, that to put it in a simple equation................

Throttle = Requested Torque

So requesting a higher load means that the throttle body is open more. Again, that is a DRASTIC over-simplification, but that pretty much gives you an idea. The throttle being closed more is not that much of a restriction in and of itself on a turbo car, but more power is being made because we are requesting more torque be made under some circumstances and that means that at times the throttle is more open as a result, not as the cause. The tuning is also much more complex that changing the value of requested torque as we still have to make lots of mapping changes to the individual tables.

We have not run into any issues with the fuel pump with proper tuning. If we do, we will limit power production to account for that."

[Mid_Life_Crisis]

Who told you that? (huh)
Mazdaspeed always releases their cars for a two year production run...limited production though....

Okay, then Mazda didn't lie, the guy who wrote the article I read was a moron who didn't verify his facts.
I would have held onto my 2004 hatch another year if I had known there would be an 08.

[redrocketz]

Who told you that? (huh)
Mazdaspeed always releases their cars for a two year production run...limited production though....

except the miata which was a 1.5 year run since the factory burned to the ground. those guys don't even have replacement engines if they pop them.

[AutoXRacer]

except the miata which was a 1.5 year run since the factory burned to the ground. those guys don't even have replacement engines if they pop them.

1.5...? I was shopping for one of those (still am) and they have 2004 and 2005 production years...
(huh)

[redrocketz]

1.5...? I was shopping for one of those (still am) and they have 2004 and 2005 production years...
(huh)

yeah half way through the 05 runs the factory burnt to the ground. they are not hard to find though I know of atleast 2 here for sale. Aric (Aricjm15) from PG has one with quite a bit done to it and a new turbo manifold and GT28RS waiting for it in the next month or so.

[Bochet]

Yep, the MS Factory burnt down in the 05 year. There are very few Lava Orange and Black MSMs because of this. Someone just had their MSM upgraded to a FMII setup and they made about 290RWHP on 93 Octane gas @ 12PSI. Sexy car.

[FMOS Racing]

I've never seen a single instance where closing the throttle is going to increase available torque at a given RPM - or even keep it the same. I've always requested more torque by opening the throttle farther. Now I understand what Cobb is saying above but there are some key phrases that, after reading other threads here, I believe people are missing. (e.g. "in just" and "in and of itself.")

I guarantee you that if you keep the boost from tapering off and the throttle blade open, the stock bell-shaped torque curve will turn into more of a decreasing plateau and that there will be a significant increase in horsepower all the way to redline. Keeping the manifold pressure up is easy, just takes a boost controller. Getting control of that throttle so that you get "unrestricted" flow to the manifold is not so simple.

[chacon101]

Crap. I have an 08 (made 07/07) and my turbo is now smoking with a stock exhaust...just have the MSCAI.

Picking up my phone to call the dealer....

[AutoXRacer]

Yep, the MS Factory burnt down in the 05 year. There are very few Lava Orange and Black MSMs because of this. Someone just had their MSM upgraded to a FMII setup and they made about 290RWHP on 93 Octane gas @ 12PSI. Sexy car.

Now thats what I'm talking about!!!! That car is so light and nimble that 290 RWHP is just insane!!!! Awesome!!! (2thumbs)



Crap. I have an 08 (made 07/07) and my turbo is now smoking with a stock exhaust...just have the MSCAI.

Picking up my phone to call the dealer....

How many miles do you have on your car?

[Andrade08]

Now thats what I'm talking about!!!! That car is so light and nimble that 290 RWHP is just insane!!!! Awesome!!! (2thumbs)




How many miles do you have on your car?
Ditto.......Miles and build date.
I have 5200 miles on the car now so today for kicks I tried the bad turbo check people are talking about to see if the Turbo is OK or not. It will show even with the full stock exhaust I guess. I drove for about 25 minutes to my parent’s house the last few miles I drove the car a bit hard. No beating hard but hard. Once I got to my parents I let the car idle in the driveway for 15 minutes while watching the exhaust for anything. And it was 43* and light rain. I had no smoke at all......not even white. So I had my Dad get in a rev the car to 3000rpms........nadda. I then told him to give the peddle a good whack.......he did and the BPV chirped and no smoke at all. Not even a black puff. So...........I am guessing my Turbo might be good. I am really trying to give myself a red or green light on a down pipe and mid pipe combo from I guess CP-E since they are the only ones with a cat in the pipe.

[AutoXRacer]

Just do it...whats the use of having a bad turbo leaking oil and a stock exhaust thats masking it. If it leaks it leaks... Just because you wait or don't install a DP/CBE doesn't mean you'll be saving your turbo...

I'd rather find out if I have a bad turbo or not...that why I can take care of the situation. I wouldn't want to keep stock parts just to hide a problem.

Just my 0.02...

[Andrade08]

Just do it...whats the use of having a bad turbo leaking oil and a stock exhaust thats masking it. If it leaks it leaks... Just because you wait or don't install a DP/CBE doesn't mean you'll be saving your turbo...

I'd rather find out if I have a bad turbo or not...that why I can take care of the situation. I wouldn't want to keep stock parts just to hide a problem.

Just my 0.02...

I know but the other thing is emissions in my state. It is VERY strict. So if I do end up smoking all the dealers will make me put the stock DP and MP back on because they can not legally work on a car with a modified exhaust (cat back is OK). And if it doesn't smoke with the stock stuff the Mazda reps will not do anything with it. I do not think exhaust mods should be looked down on as much as they are. I will still keep it smog legal with a nice cat. And I have no boost controller so I will let the ECM controll my boost.
I have an 08 by the way with a 9/07 build date. I baught it 11/26/07.