Too much boost! help with mbc install

[mooserov]

I am hitting 23 psi and creeping to 25 in 4th. As soon as this happens I get off it to keep from blowing up. I'm using a dash hawk for afr's and a prosport boost gauge.
JoeP boost controller. I've plumbed it 2 ways with identical results:
1. pulled the hose between waste gate and compressor housing, adding a hose to each, and plumbing there. capping the other waste gate nipple and the factory boost solenoid.
2. plumbed in place of the factory solenoid, leaving all other hoses stock.

What can be causing this? the mbc does not limit boost at all. Where is the proper place to plumb it? I've read about both. I know a few people have this mbc, can it be faulty? I'm really confused, and don't want to blow my motor. Please chime in with any advice.
Thanks,
Moose

[MS3077]

I am hitting 23 psi and creeping to 25 in 4th. As soon as this happens I get off it to keep from blowing up. I'm using a dash hawk for afr's and a prosport boost gauge.
JoeP boost controller. I've plumbed it 2 ways with identical results:
1. pulled the hose between waste gate and compressor housing, adding a hose to each, and plumbing there. capping the other waste gate nipple and the factory boost solenoid.
2. plumbed in place of the factory solenoid, leaving all other hoses stock.

First thing I would do is edit my profile (don't but your zip / location) so that a Mazda rep doesn't void your warranty!

[mooserov]

don't give 2 craps about warranty. changed anyway

[hectik1]

Go back hook it up like #1. Then make sure you have the MBC on the right way. If you have it backwards, the boost will spike high and adjusting the knob will have little to no effect.

[mooserov]

When I had it like number 1 and swapped the hoses, the boost went way over 25 psi very fast. This was with the boost controller screwed all the way out. I am not against trying it all again from the beginning, but I don't think that that is it. Why is number 1 better than number 2? Can you see my reasoning for putting it in place of the stock solenoid? Am I just retarded?

[RonTonkinMazda]

?? screwed out?? thats wrong. in = less boost, out= more boost

what brand you using?

[GhostMercury]

obviously somethings not right just take it off

[mooserov]

using the JoeP model. Just going by their instructions. Counterclockwise=Less boost.

[mooserov]

Got it sorted out. Went with option 2. More details to come soon because this is a much easier and faster way to add a mbc. Holding strong at 19 and a half. Car rips with afr's in the 11's

[mooserov]

ok, as i stated before, I went through all the hassle of hooking up the boost controller like it says in this post http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123683964

and could never get the stupid thing to work correctly. I tried all permutations of hosing and valve adjustment to no avail. Finally, I sat down with a pencil and paper and figured out how the factory system works. After this I basically replaced the factory boost solenoid with the JoeP manual boost controller and wonder of wonders, it works perfectly. This is a very simple install, no getting under the car and no busted knuckles. I'm doing a howto on this, but if anyone can see a problem with how this is hooked up, put words to it.

Factory control works as follows:
The compressor housing has a nipple that allows boost pressure to reach the wastegate actuator through a short hose. This is the fatter hose pictured in the above link. There is a smaller diameter hose that comes off the top of the wastegate actuator that leads to the factory boost control solenoid. The second hose coming off the solenoid goes to the intake pipe to recirculate the metered boost. I am reasonably sure that the factory control solenoid is pulse-width modulated, which means it is sent 12 volt pulses to open it partially. The slower the pulses, the closer to closed. The faster the pulses, the more open.
The two fittings on the wastegate actuator are a straight passthrough. I did an experiment by leaving the hoses as stock, and capping the actuator. Boost was limited to around 15 lbs by the spring in the actuator. Then I installed the controller and made run after run slowly adjusting it. Here are some pics.

This is the factory boost control solenoid, The cap is where the hose ran to the wastegate actuator, the hose went to the nipple on the intake.
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i210/mooserov/solenoidpointer.jpg

This is the wastegate actuator, the hose attached to it goes to the inlet side of the Manual Boost controller
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i210/mooserov/Wastegateactuator.jpg

This one is hard to see. The pointer is resting on the nipple on the intake. The hose in the picture runs to the outlet of the Manual Boost Controller. Follow the hose from the solenoid to find it, it can be pulled off and installed by feel.
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i210/mooserov/intakehosepointer.jpg

Here's a pic of the solenoid and actuator together, without pointers in the way. Very easy to get to, and can be put back as stock in about 5 minutes.
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i210/mooserov/wastegateandsolenoid2.jpg

[MS3077]

don't give 2 craps about warranty. changed anyway

lol

[tru-boost]

so let me see if i understand what you did....
you left the fat hose that connects the turbo housing to the WGA intact. then you basicaly just put the MBC in place of the factory solenoid, just re-using the original in/out lines ?
is that right ? i suppose that would give the same effect as doing it the other way. i did infact use the same method as loloosh's how to and have perfect results.

[mooserov]

that's exactly what I did. For some reason, the mbc I have would steadily creep. Works perfect where it is now, and I can inspect the hoses periodically without getting under the car

[mooserov]

i did run longer hoses, but from the same locations.

[SPEED3TYPE2]

ive got the standback so if I type 18psi, I get 18psi..

[mooserov]

I would really like to know if there is any negative effects from installing a boost controller like this. If there is none, it is a much easier way to do it. Any boost gurus have an opinion? This is my first boosted car and I'm building a stupid fast boosted honda, so I'm trying to absorb as much info as I can.

[tru-boost]

ive got the standback so if I type 18psi, I get 18psi..

i paid $50 you paid $600 ! and messing with anything other than boost with a piggyback "tuner" on a forced induction direct injected car is the worst idea ever.....sorry.

[SPEED3TYPE2]

na why cuase you said so... the standback is a coool little computer, you can data log, add fuel , remove fuel, add timeing, remove timeing, plus I run vta with no backfie thanks to the standback..for 600 bucks its good deal. Also you didnt pay 50bucks cuase you had to also buy the fuel cut defender....

[tru-boost]

I would really like to know if there is any negative effects from installing a boost controller like this. If there is none, it is a much easier way to do it. Any boost gurus have an opinion? This is my first boosted car and I'm building a stupid fast boosted honda, so I'm trying to absorb as much info as I can.

i know all of the MBC instructions i have ever seen say to place the MBC directly between the compressor and the WGA, then do away with all other hose connections. if it is working out for you, i see no harm in it. the only for sure NO, NO for an MBC on our car is trying to install it with the factory solenoid still in use.

[redrocketz]

i paid $50 you paid $600 ! and messing with anything other than boost with a piggyback "tuner" on a forced induction direct injected car is the worst idea ever.....sorry.

why we made shit tons more power with one and it hasn't blown yet (everything else has though)

[tru-boost]

read the post by jon....mrlilguy . he explains it much better and in full detail. he also states that the xede is far superior to the standback. it had to do with the sample/adjustment rate or something like that.
http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123699365

the reality of it is sensor modification is not tuning. a hard ecu flash will work great but a piggy back...no thanks. laloosh proved that point to me. a "tuned" standback with an awesome dead straight 11:1 line for AFR one day, then the temp drops 20 degrees and the car was over 13:1 ! and there is not a damn thing the standback could do about it. he pulled the "tuner" off the car and it holds much better AFR's in all temps and performs just as well.

the only blown motors i have seen was from 2 standback equipped MS6's and a few guys trying run a big turbo.
all the guys with MBC's and map clamps or BCD's are running strong. and when i first joined these forums i was told ...... you must be crazy to run an MBC. they cars dont like it. or the famous.... the ecu will tune i the extra boost out !

[tru-boost]

na why cuase you said so... the standback is a coool little computer, you can data log, add fuel , remove fuel, add timeing, remove timeing, plus I run vta with no backfie thanks to the standback..for 600 bucks its good deal. Also you didnt pay 50bucks cuase you had to also buy the fuel cut defender....

you are right $50 for the MBC and $20for the MAP clamp = $70 !
the data logging is pretty cool, but i have the dashhawk for that. i would not touch the fuel or timing adjustments with that tuner though.....honestly.
stick with the added boost and call it a day. from the few people i know who have data logged and dynoed with that system it shows VERY inconsistant results. it seems to have a very hard time adjusting to temp. changes.

[SPEED3TYPE2]

i tried -2percent fuel from 4-7 k , it did seem more powerful but I put it baclk cuase I don't have a a/f guage..

[redrocketz]

read the post by jon....mrlilguy . he explains it much better and in full detail. he also states that the xede is far superior to the standback. it had to do with the sample/adjustment rate or something like that.
http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123699365

the reality of it is sensor modification is not tuning. a hard ecu flash will work great but a piggy back...no thanks. laloosh proved that point to me. a "tuned" standback with an awesome dead straight 11:1 line for AFR one day, then the temp drops 20 degrees and the car was over 13:1 ! and there is not a damn thing the standback could do about it. he pulled the "tuner" off the car and it holds much better AFR's in all temps and performs just as well.

the only blown motors i have seen was from 2 standback equipped MS6's and a few guys trying run a big turbo.
all the guys with MBC's and map clamps or BCD's are running strong. and when i first joined these forums i was told ...... you must be crazy to run an MBC. they cars dont like it. or the famous.... the ecu will tune i the extra boost out !

yeah I read that post and it bored me honestly. didn't really learn anything from it. that is all about high efficiency direct Injection which these cars are not and redundant shit that is being spat around in every thread you can find. you don't have uber lean-burn conditions and all that other stuff. it has been proven that removing the swirl valve doesn't hurt and all that other shit.

I learned about Direct Injection when I went to school I watched videos from the VAG and they were much more informative. no offence.

We seem to be keeping AFR's in the 12's range all the time regardless of weather with a piggyback. I was in the car yesterday and it seems to do pretty well, couldn't get on it because of a 13 mile old clutch though. try running a BCD and see how your timing goes above a certain RPM/Boost. Or try running a BCD and a PiggyBack big mistake.

[tru-boost]

i agree about the BCD for sure, thats why i was the one who pioneered the MAP clamp on our cars. the map clamp gives the same results as the piggyback. i just know i wouldn pay my $$$ for a piggy back. i spent too much time, money, and effort on my car to trust it to the hands of a sensor modifier. give me a hard tune written to the ECU and a fuel system to feed the fire and i will be happy. i think the AP will be nice, just too damn pricey. and pretty much worthless without a custom tune. i like the stock ECU and plan to stick with it..... unless something really blows me away. so far the fastest 1/4 mile times in MS3's have all been from stock ECU cars. i dont give a rats ass about what the dyno says. you can have cars lay down 350HP on a dyno that run 13's and a 12 second car that only shows 300HP.
this is very common on srt-4's.
the modded stage 1 cars always dyno higher, but are never as fast as a stage2 car. i'll take the faster car anyday of the week. if somebody else wins the race on paper, so be it.... lets line up !

[redrocketz]

We won on paper and the track though

[tru-boost]

who is we ? i'm on the PG team too ! you didnt disown me just because i dont like piggy back "tuners" did you ? i like you and jason is cool too, i just dont like his tuning choice, thats all. i guess i cant blame him though. he is trying to make the best out of what is available. i personally will wait until i see something i feel is worthy enough for my car.

well it looks like we will both be at "da grove" on april 5th so we will see.
Ken said i will have my slicks by then so it should be fun. i should be easy mid-high 12's so unless jason busts into the 11's with his extra $5K of mods i will not be very impressed considering i am still on a stock intercooler, stock downpipe, stock cat-back, stock turbo, and stock ECU !

[mazda3mods]

Whats better, BCD or map clamp?

[mazda3mods]

OP still running okay with it hooked up differently?

We are spiking around 2-3 psi in every gear right now...Is it safe to spike to 19-20?

[tru-boost]

map clamp is better for sure. it doesnt create a boost leak like the BCD does.
spike to 20 is nothing. i hold 25psi in my upper gears from a roll !

[mazda3mods]

We are ditching the JoeP MBC and ordering turbosmart. Customer wants the BCD i think, doesnt want to splice the wires on the main harnesses.

Are you running upgraded Fuel pump as well?

[tru-boost]

We are ditching the JoeP MBC and ordering turbosmart. Customer wants the BCD i think, doesnt want to splice the wires on the main harnesses.

Are you running upgraded Fuel pump as well?

the BCD costs a lot of high end power compare to the map clamp. all that boost leaking out makes it fall on its face up top.
upgraded pump will be here next week !! as for now the car is starving for fuel ....especially when its cold !

[mazda3mods]

So your not hitting fuel cut or running lean right now?

[mazda3mods]

Can you use a Map Clamp without splicing the main harness?

[JSpeed 6 JLA]

will an electronic boost controller work the same as the MBC with the maf clamp?

[mooserov]

I'm not running an upgraded pump. I've logged my fuel pressures and afr's with no problems. I'm not even getting the 'sputter' problem that I've read about.

[mooserov]

Can you use a Map Clamp without splicing the main harness?
I used wire taps and insulated them from the environment. Just squeezed onto the correct wires and insulated. No cutting.

[Haltech]

I used wire taps and insulated them from the environment. Just squeezed onto the correct wires and insulated. No cutting.

Really not a good approach. I understand the reasoning why you did this, however... not the ideal way to do this. The MAP is very sensitive

[tru-boost]

in temps above 45 degrees i am fine with AFR's that drop to high tens/low
11's. when it is cold the AFR's climb into the 12's and my fuel pessure drops a lot. i am usually at 1700psi or so. in the cold it will drop as low 800psi. a pump upgrade is a MUST HAVE if you want more boost.
yes a map clamp must be wired into the harness. if you dont want to tap in near the ecu you can do it off the map sensor wires directly off the sensor, but it will be a pain in the ass !

[Darksun280]

that's exactly what I did. For some reason, the mbc I have would steadily creep. Works perfect where it is now, and I can inspect the hoses periodically without getting under the car

Get a different MBc. I had a forge that did that. I added an intake and the spikes we decreased greatly.

[mrlilguy157]

my BCD from ATP and the 3071r hold boost all the way to 7k... yea.... my car used to haul balls all the way to redline.

you guys cars' doesnt.

[tru-boost]

now that i think about it hooking up a MBC in place of the stock solenoid doesnt sound like a good idea. think about it. it should be between the turbo and WGA. if you put it after the WGA and use it like the stock solenoid, the pressure wuld come in from one side and just dump air back into the intake tube from the other side, that is a huge boost leak. no wonder the car doesnt spike anymore.... its working its ass off just to make boost. with the proper set up the pressure comes in one side of the MBC and exits the other side going to the WGA. it is OK for the stock solenoid to bleed into the intake because it is in controlled amounts. with a MBC all the air going through it will be bled out. i suppose if it is a ball and spring only MBC it could work, but i wouldnt trust it. MBC inline with the compressor and WGA is the way to go. if you see spikes or dont hold boost well...your MBC sucks ! turbosmart FTW !!

[mooserov]

It is a ball and spring mbc. Very good design IMO.

[tru-boost]

since it is ball & spring it will work just like a WGA. it will hold the boost back until it overpowers the spring and then open the WG. that would be fine. if it was a bleeder type valve it would not work out well installed that way.

[boost3]

i have turbosmart mbc.im installing it 2morrow.onel ine goes form the wastegate to the top of the turbo smart port.then a line from the turbo to the bottom off the turbosmart port right.is that how its installed.then im adding my atp boost cut defender.hope it all works for me.

[Ghetto Mods]

Puzzling this out a bit further, I think you could install the MBC off the TOP hose from the WGA and cap the outlet of the MBC.

No skinned knuckles FTW!!!!!

This should work the same as capping the top outlet of the WGA.

Tru Boost - what do you think???

[shadrag]

...cap the outlet of the MBC.
??????

Air pressure needs to go through the MBC for it to do anything.

[Ghetto Mods]

O.K. to review:

Standard install:

Compressor through MBC to waste gate actuator INLET, cap waste gate actuator OUTLET.

My suggestion:

Compressor to waste gate actuator INLET (like stock), connect MBC to WGA OUTLET, cap OUTLET of MBC.

Same effect, the MBC bleeds off pressure but the other end is closed off. Leaving that end open major boost leak per Tru Boost's post above.

Clearer now?

[tru-boost]

ahhhhh i see ....cap the mbc outlet. i suppose that would work.

[RocaLoca]

in temps above 45 degrees i am fine with AFR's that drop to high tens/low
11's. when it is cold the AFR's climb into the 12's and my fuel pessure drops a lot. i am usually at 1700psi or so. in the cold it will drop as low 800psi. a pump upgrade is a MUST HAVE if you want more boost.
yes a map clamp must be wired into the harness. if you dont want to tap in near the ecu you can do it off the map sensor wires directly off the sensor, but it will be a pain in the ass !

are these your afr's at WOT? correct me if i'm wrong but isnt nominal somewhere between 14-15? are you running lean due to excessive boost and not enough gas to feed your monster?

[tru-boost]

yes that is at WOT, and you have your numbers mixed up ! higher numbers mean you are lean and lower numbers mean you are rich. 14-15 would equal a tossed rod or melted piston !

[RocaLoca]

yes that is at WOT, and you have your numbers mixed up ! higher numbers mean you are lean and lower numbers mean you are rich. 14-15 would equal a tossed rod or melted piston !

my mistake you were right about my numbers being backwards BUT, 14.7:1 is perfect stoichiometric mixture for a gasoline engine (not at WOT) =)

[slo4now]

Correct

[phillyb]

i know all of the MBC instructions i have ever seen say to place the MBC directly between the compressor and the WGA, then do away with all other hose connections. if it is working out for you, i see no harm in it. the only for sure NO, NO for an MBC on our car is trying to install it with the factory solenoid still in use.

bump...
please elaborate on this...the top of the wga and solenoid should be capped. what happens if i don't cap them and hook up the mbc?

[freebird_78]

Well, I hooked mine up per Moose's recommendation. I am running a JoeP Inline Boost Controller, a ball and spring type.

The first way I had it was to have the MBC inlet to the WGA. My thinking was based off Moose mentioning that the WGA ports were straight through, therefore, the boost coming from the compressor, to the lower WGA port was actually a boost source coming out of the top WGA port. This immediately produced 20+ PSI and the setting on the MBC had no effect.

Swapped the orientation of the MBC and it seems to work. With the stock BCS, I'd hold ~11.7 PSI max (I'm at 4000+ft alt). My goal with the MBC was simply to "simulate" pressure I would see at sea level. I figured this was nice and safe, but also a good increase. I figure if I want to go further, I could always clamp.

So I installed the MBC in the correct orientation with the MBC outlet going to the top WGA port and the MBC inlet to the turbo intlet nipple. I'm not sure how this is working, but it seems to be. Where I'd see no more than 11.7 PSI stock, I'm seeing a steady 14.6 PSI now. This is a bit down from what I had started with and actually had to trim a touch of boost as I did encounter boost cut once. Could someone who knows please draw up a diagram on how this is working?

I've heard the whole 18 PSI spike for more than 2 seconds will cause boost cut, but what sustained boost causes boost cut? I'm guessing >15.6 PSI sustained? My spike with the MBC is pretty much eliminated vs stock. The spike is very quick now, about 1/4 the duration of the stock boost control, and stablizes very quickly.