Factory BPV - Leaks [Archive]

Bravnik

03-10-2008, 01:56 PM

Just an FYI - This weekend I replaced my factory BPV with a Forge one (Blue with 2 shims). I'm running 19PSI using a TurboSmart with Map Clamp.

Before - With the factory BPV when I was crusing 80MPH in 6th my boost was at like 10-15Vac. Normal Vac at idle was like -26. When I got on it, my boost would shoot up to 19PSI then drop almost instantly to around 16-17PSI.

After - With the Forge when crusing at 80MPH in 6th my boost is at 0 vac/boost. Normal Idle is at -20vac. When I get on it now my boost shoots up to 19PSI and holds steady to 6k.

There is no question in my mind that my factory BPV was leaking like crazy and unable to hold boost past 16PSI very well.

v0ice

03-10-2008, 02:15 PM

Thanks for showing more definitive proof. I wanted to believe it would be better than the stocker, but no one really had any "proof".

AutoXRacer

03-10-2008, 02:24 PM

Thanks for showing more definitive proof. I wanted to believe it would be better than the stocker, but no one really had any "proof".

Here is one of my posts on this thread http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123697096&page=4 ; read the red section:

OK, so finally FedEx delivered my SSQV this morning and I slapped it on before the FedEx guy drove away... (lol2)

I bought the expensive one that simply bolts-on. I did not have to buy any other parts, hoses, clips, or adaptors...

I simply removed the stocker, rotated the bypass hose that attaches to the turbo inlet/intake interface so that it matches up to the HKS and then used the supplied hose and adapter to attach the vacuum hose. Oh, I also had to configure the SSQV to recirculation. The instructions come for VTA...I wish... :)

Oh BTW, I took pictures, I will post them up tonight...

Anyway, fit and finish is A+!!! Easy to install!!!! And 1,000 times better than the stocker...the stocker is really flimsy.

So, what everyone is waiting for...the test drive.

Initial impression is that its quieter than stock!!! (sad)
If you boost anything less than 5 PSI, you won't hear a thing. Between 5-8 PSI and you can clearly hear the flutter. Higher than 8-15 PSI its quieter than stock, I guess that has to do with the valve closing a lot quicker than the stocker. At this point I was a little disappointed...

Engine performance is improved!!! I can't say its amazing, but definitely helps. With the stocker, I held at 15.6 PSI and spiked around 16-17 PSI at 50* degree weather, 30* degree weather occasionally spiked at 19, rarely 20 PSI. Todays temps were 79*-80* degrees. I was piking 20 consistently and held boost at 16.6; got an extra 1 PSI. Now, the biggest advantage I found was that the power between shifting!!! With the stocker, the shifts were smooth and progressive...it eased into boost. Now, as soon as you shift and let go of the clutch and floor it, it threw my head back!!!!

Seems like the engine is very responsive between shifts...I know it has something to do with boost... Maybe the valve closes a lot quicker thus recovering boost quicker...? (huh)

I can't say its worth $275 for its performance gains. It does make a difference, but I would recommend this mod after you've done the basics; intake, DP, TMIC or FMIC, CBE, etc... I think this should be one of your last power mods...unless you have a really bad leaky stocker BPV.

I like it and I'm happy with it. (2thumbs) I wish we could run it VTA though...
I'll post the pics tonight...

The stocker does leak even at stock boost!!!!

aaronc7

03-10-2008, 02:34 PM

awesome info, I'm at the GFs house on the way to sams...lol. My boost seems to just be spiking now I'm thinking maybe it is the stock bpv.

SuperStretch18

03-10-2008, 02:56 PM

Mine's a CX-7, but I've found a similar trend. I'm actually back to stock right now for testing and I can't hit higher than about 12 psi. With the forge valve, I can consistently hit max boost, which on the CX-7 is just about 15 psi. The difference is remarkable...

aaronc7

03-10-2008, 05:49 PM

Yep, my boost is consistently spiking up to as high as 19psi now and quickly dropping back down to 16psi (no boost controller or anything). I wonder if it's the computer doing this or valve...or maybe both? Anyone with intake/TBE/bpv and no boost control?

AutoXRacer

03-10-2008, 06:10 PM

MS3077

03-10-2008, 07:49 PM

How to you increase the boost?

AutoXRacer

03-10-2008, 08:03 PM

How to you increase the boost?

It's factory set...you need tuning to adjust it...piggy back, Cobb AP (if it ever comes out), or a manual boost control/bleeder valve.

Another way to increase boost as a side effect, is to unrestrict the airflow into and out of the engine; intake, TMIC, DP, CBE, etc... Though I only gained 1 PSI, others claim 2-3 PSI.

dparm1984

03-11-2008, 12:00 AM

AutoXRacer

03-11-2008, 07:17 AM

So on a stock motor, what benefits does this offer? My car drives well with just the MS CAI (though at times it does feel a tad inconsistent).

If the driveability improves, however, I'm ordering it soon.

Are you asking about the BPV? If your stocker is leaking, then by replacing it, you will have more boost (no more leaking boost) = more power.

dparm1984

03-11-2008, 08:50 AM

How does one even know if it's leaking then?

v0ice

03-11-2008, 09:14 AM

Here is one of my posts on this thread

I guess I missed that one! I had only seen unsubstantiated claims...

SuperStretch18

03-11-2008, 09:21 AM

How does one even know if it's leaking then?

Unless you are tracking with a gauge, dashhawk or something similar, you might never know what you're missing!

AutoXRacer

03-11-2008, 09:26 AM

How does one even know if it's leaking then?

I didn't know mine was leaking...

After reading how everyone gets 2-3 PSI increase over stock with the mods I have and keeping their boost stock... I started to think I was leaking boost some how...something did not add up.

Though I only gained 1 PSI which is still short 1-2 PSI from other members claims. I felt a difference with the new BPV.

Like I posted in my thread, I don't think this is a priority mod unless your stock BPV is leaking bad and not providing the stock 15.6 PSI boost.

dparm1984

03-11-2008, 09:41 AM

Yeah after spending $20k on the car I don't exactly have any more money to burn a hole in my pocket, lol. I'll still be reading this thread though.

patty AT forge

03-11-2008, 09:45 AM

Like I posted in my thread, I don't think this is a priority mod unless your stock BPV is leaking bad and not providing the stock 15.6 PSI boost.

I disagree, boost leaks should be fixed as a matter of course. You might say "its only ~2 psi" but the reality of the situation is that your turbo may be spinning 20,000 rpm faster to reach that boost level.

I would be very interested to see some logs of intake temps before and after replacing the factory installed leak - I mean DV.

Bravnik

03-11-2008, 11:33 AM

I disagree, boost leaks should be fixed as a matter of course. You might say "its only ~2 psi" but the reality of the situation is that your turbo may be spinning 20,000 rpm faster to reach that boost level.

I would be very interested to see some logs of intake temps before and after replacing the factory installed leak - I mean DV.

Crap, I never thought about that. Bah, I could have logged the BAT before and after if I had thought to do so. Maybe I will do so this weekend. I know I use to hit like 110 or so before and now I think I max out at like 95 while moving. But then again, this is from memory and very well could be wrong.

aaronc7

03-11-2008, 04:04 PM

What exactly makes a valve leak? Isn't there equal pressure on both 'sides' of the bpv?

hectik1

03-11-2008, 05:10 PM

Plastic BOVs leak. This has been proven time and time again within the DSM/Evo community. The Evo VIII had plastic BOV....Mitsubishi changed it to a metal BOV with the Evo IX.

AS far as the Mazda...I have a Forge BPV on my wife's CX7. The one biggest difference I noticed was the increased boost response. Upper rpm power felt stronger. Unfortunately I took the boost gauge out before this mod.

Silver Ecstasy

03-12-2008, 12:29 AM

How does a new BPV interfere regarding warranty repairs and dealership visits? I'm completely new to boost, especially OEM boost. I'm thinking that I'll need to make sure I get a boost gauge installed to make sure I monitor everything myself.

Also what about this dual port valve Turbosmart from ***************?

SuperStretch18

03-12-2008, 09:59 AM

The BPV is a 5 minute swap. I would probably take it out if I was going to the dealership.

patty AT forge

03-12-2008, 10:05 AM

What exactly makes a valve leak? Isn't there equal pressure on both 'sides' of the bpv?

There will always be some pressure loss and there will be a VERY small lag between when the two sides see pressure. But if the pressure loss is great enough and the lag long enough a weakly sprung valve will open slightly and once open it may take a few hundred RPM to close fully.

This sort of leak, opening and releasing pressure, is far more detrimental than a valve that leaks pressure during a static pressure test (as long as it isn't a ridiculous amount). For instance, an aftermarket piston based valve might bleed pressure slowly during a bench test but outperform an OEM diaphragm in every real world scenario even though the stock valve loses no pressure in the same test.

patty AT forge

03-12-2008, 10:06 AM

Crap, I never thought about that. Bah, I could have logged the BAT before and after if I had thought to do so. Maybe I will do so this weekend. I know I use to hit like 110 or so before and now I think I max out at like 95 while moving. But then again, this is from memory and very well could be wrong.

BAT? Is that the intake temp? And if so where is the sensor located?

nypest

03-12-2008, 10:21 AM

BAT? Is that the intake temp? And if so where is the sensor located?

BAT.......Boosted air temp

Silver Ecstasy

03-12-2008, 10:37 AM

No one thinks that Turbosmart Dual Port valve will help?

Bravnik

03-12-2008, 11:05 AM

BAT? Is that the intake temp? And if so where is the sensor located?

The IAT on the MS3 is actually integrated to the MAF located on the Intake before the Turbo.

We have a BAT/IAT2 sensor integrated with the MAP as well and its located on the TB. It's refered too as BAT with the DashHawk which is the tool that I datalog with.

Yesterday I setup my DH to check the IAT and BAT.

AAT = 60Deg
IAT = 84-93 (Give or take)
BAT = 95-105 (Give or Take)

This was on my way home which is commute traffic on the highway.

patty AT forge

03-12-2008, 11:09 AM

The IAT on the MS3 is actually integrated to the MAF located on the Intake before the Turbo.

We have a BAT/IAT2 sensor integrated with the MAP as well and its located on the TB. It's refered too as BAT with the DashHawk which is the tool that I datalog with.

Yesterday I setup my DH to check the IAT and BAT.

AAT = 60Deg
IAT = 84-93 (Give or take)
BAT = 95-105 (Give or Take)

This was on my way home which is commute traffic on the highway.

Damn, that's very convenient.

Bravnik

03-12-2008, 11:13 AM

Damn, that's very convenient.

Yah the DashHawk is a very nice tool. Best $300 I ever spent (yes)

nypest

03-12-2008, 11:27 AM

Yah the DashHawk is a very nice tool. Best $300 I ever spent (yes)

+1

aaronc7

03-12-2008, 01:39 PM

No one thinks that Turbosmart Dual Port valve will help?

Yeah it will work fine. Will run better is recirc mode...but its expensive. Nice valve definitely, but expensive

hectik1

03-12-2008, 05:07 PM

The BPV is a 5 minute swap. I would probably take it out if I was going to the dealership.Definitely do it. When we took the CX7 in for warranty work, they had to okay the work due to the Forge BPV on the car. Didn't void the warranty, but the service manager said to take it off the next time so it didn't prolong the work.

redrocketz

03-12-2008, 05:16 PM

The IAT on the MS3 is actually integrated to the MAF located on the Intake before the Turbo.

We have a BAT/IAT2 sensor integrated with the MAP as well and its located on the TB. It's refered too as BAT with the DashHawk which is the tool that I datalog with.

nope the MAP/IAT2 is actually on the back of the intake manifold not part of the throttle body (TB)

Bravnik

03-12-2008, 08:31 PM

nope the MAP/IAT2 is actually on the back of the intake manifold not part of the throttle body (TB)

Aye TB = Intake. You mean you could not read my mind and know what I was saying like my wife can (gun)

Silver Ecstasy

03-13-2008, 12:32 AM

Yeah it will work fine. Will run better is recirc mode...but its expensive. Nice valve definitely, but expensive

Instead of asking to explain what this does and why it's like this, do you have any helpful articles I could read on this whole bpv and recirc options and all that?

dkswim

03-13-2008, 01:08 AM

late8

03-13-2008, 06:05 PM

Instead of asking to explain what this does and why it's like this, do you have any helpful articles I could read on this whole bpv and recirc options and all that?
From Wikipedia:
Definitions
A compressor bypass valve (CBV) also known as a compressor relief valve is a vacuum-actuated valve designed to release pressure in the intake system of a turbocharged or centrifugally supercharged car when the throttle is lifted or closed. This air pressure is re-circulated back into the non-pressurized end of the intake (before the turbo) but after the mass airflow sensor.

A blowoff valve, (BOV, sometimes hooter valve, dump valve) does basically the same thing, but releases the air to the atmosphere. This creates a very distinctive sound desired by many who own turbocharged sports cars. Some blowoff valves are sold with trumpet shaped exits that amplify the "psssshhh" sound, as not all bov's are the same, some make different noises and these designs are normally marketed towards the tuner crowd. For some owners this is the only reason to get a BOV. Motor sports governed by the FIA have made it illegal to vent unmuffled blowoff valves to the atmosphere. In the United States, Australia and Europe cars featuring unmuffled blowoff valves are illegal for street use.

Disadvantages
The unique sound caused by a blowoff valve (but not a compressor bypass valve) sometimes comes at a price. On a car where the blowoff valve is mounted after the mass airflow sensor, venting to atmosphere confuses the engine control unit (ECU) of the car. The ECU is told it has a specific amount of air in the intake system, and injects fuel accordingly. The amount of air released by the blowoff valve is not taken into consideration and the engine runs rich for a period of time. Engines with a manifold absolute pressure regulated ECU or where the blowoff is mounted upstream of the MAF sensor are not affected.

Typically this isn't a major issue, but sometimes it can lead to hesitation or stalling of the engine when the throttle is closed. This situation worsens with higher boost pressures. Eventually this can foul spark plugs and destroy the catalytic converter (when running rich, not all the fuel is burned which can heat up on and melt the converter or leave heavy carbon deposits).

Purpose
Blowoff valves are used to prevent compressor surge. Compressor surge is a phenomenon that occurs when lifting off the throttle of a turbocharged car (with a non-existent or faulty bypass valve). When the throttle plate on a turbocharged engine running boost closes, high pressure in the intake system has nowhere to go. It is forced to travel back to the turbocharger in the form of a pressure wave. This results in the wheel rapidly decreasing speed and stalling. The driver will notice a fluttering air sound.

Operation

throttle open, blowoff valve closed
throttle closed, blowoff valve openA blow-off-valve is connected by a vacuum hose to the intake manifold after the throttle plate. When the throttle is closed, manifold vacuum without pressure develops in the intake manifold after the throttle plate and "sucks" the blowoff valve open. The excess pressure from the turbocharger is vented into the atmosphere or recirculated into the intake upstream of the compressor inlet.

See also
Dump valve
Wastegate

Silver Ecstasy

03-13-2008, 06:40 PM

AutoXRacer

03-14-2008, 07:38 AM

Thanks for that post! So in our case would a BOV be bad or is it just much safer to run a recirc bpv to avoid issues. If anything I would like to replace my factory unit to prevent leaking. Of course I would never know its leaking until I get a boost gauge or have my turbo eventually fail.

Our ECU/sensor setup is tuned for recirculation...you can run VTA, but your engine will run like crap and might induce long term damage to cats and O2 sensors.

Its best to stick with recirculation, then when a tuning option comes out, tune for VTA...

Sierra117

03-14-2008, 10:36 AM

Thanks for that post! So in our case would a BOV be bad or is it just much safer to run a recirc bpv to avoid issues. If anything I would like to replace my factory unit to prevent leaking. Of course I would never know its leaking until I get a boost gauge or have my turbo eventually fail.

I've always viewed running VTA on a MAF car not tuned to it akin to drinking alot of natural juice. Its not bad. Its just not good, either. Almost any BOV can be set up to run recirculation, and for the most part its about five seconds worth of work. If you want to try it, you could run VTA for a day or two, and if you don't like it, its as simple as plugging the recirc hose back in.

jbiird317

03-14-2008, 10:44 AM

I've always viewed running VTA on a MAF car not tuned to it akin to drinking alot of natural juice. Its not bad. Its just not good, either. Almost any BOV can be set up to run recirculation, and for the most part its about five seconds worth of work. If you want to try it, you could run VTA for a day or two, and if you don't like it, its as simple as plugging the recirc hose back in.

yeah if you are going to buy a BOV, make sure that it includes an adapter to run in recirc mode if there is a problem. My biggest piece of advice to those who are running VTA, please get your car tuned. If you dont do this it could cause a lot of problems, especially with stalling and stuttering when you're not on the throttle and general loss of performance. That wikipedia article really described the process well, very quality post.

dparm1984

03-14-2008, 10:47 AM

I would hope that form follows function in this community...i.e. get a part because it is built well and helps extract more power, not because it just "sounds cool" (and might cause decreased reliability/power).

jbiird317

03-14-2008, 10:56 AM

Mid_Life_Crisis

03-14-2008, 11:10 AM

hope all you want, people still set their BOV to vent because it goes "woooooosh!" lol

...and how many guys seem to think that the best thing about their Forge valve is that their girlfriend loves the pinging "Mario Bros coin sound".

AutoXRacer

03-15-2008, 11:40 AM

...and how many guys seem to think that the best thing about their Forge valve is that their girlfriend loves the pinging "Mario Bros coin sound".

I heard that a few times... (lol2)

Thanks goodness I didn't get the Forge, my GF loves Mario Brothers... (rofl)

patty AT forge

03-17-2008, 11:47 AM

jbiird317

03-17-2008, 11:52 AM

Hmmm, not buying a valve that increases performance due to the sound it makes is the same as buying one just for the sound. You're keeping the stock valve which leaks or paying an additional $100.00 for a valve just for the sound that they make... or the sound that they don't. Same thing.

i dont think anyone was denying the fact that the valve was beneficial, just saying that with VTA, a tune would be practical and help avoid problems, buying the valve just because it goes wooosh and forgetting about the performance end of it is what we were criticizing

Silver Ecstasy

04-01-2008, 02:14 PM

I think you'll all be interested to hear this:

I was about to leave the dealership after taking a test drive when I seen someone who introduced themselves as a Ford engineer to my salesperson, and asked to look underneath the hood of an MS3. I had mentioned earlier how I had heard the plastic BPV's leak, and my salesperson said he hadn't heard anything regarding them.

Having just know been told by me, he introduced me to the engineer and we got to talking. He informed me that the plastic bpv is basically real cheap, and the flutter valve is weak, to the point where it'll eventually start to wear out and stay open or leak boost. He informed me that Ford is planning on using a boosted 4cyl setup very similar if not the exact same thing the MS3/CX-7 has, but they were investigating that problem first. He started laughing when I asked about "EcoBoost" and told me he "couldn't go there."

The plastic BPV is considered by Ford as only a 20k mile product, and at one point you'll start to hear considerable more noise from the unit itself. It IS covered under warranty as an emissions based concern. So if you have an 07 MS3, it could be justified to your dealer to have it replaced.

I was told really not to put it out there about this issue, since they are still working on a fix but I figured it's better knowing that Ford is stepping up to take the necessary steps to fix this issue.

jbiird317

04-01-2008, 02:45 PM

hmm very interesting indeed. It kinda sucks that they made them so cheap, I was already planning on it, but now almost surely I will shop for a replacement BPV, probably the Forge unless something better comes along. thanks for sharing!

Silver Ecstasy

04-01-2008, 02:55 PM

Yeah he said all the components are plastic, and that flutter valve just wears out so fast during normal driving because it sits and pedals away letting excess boost leak while you're only part throttle. After a while though, it wears to nothing.

I'd go visit your dealer if you can point out that it's making more noise than it should. It's covered under warranty.

AutoXRacer

04-02-2008, 10:28 AM

Thats what I've been arguing all along in the "other" forum...the stock BPV is junk!!! :rolleyes:

Silver Ecstasy

04-02-2008, 11:22 AM

Yeah that's agreed. I was just tryin to inform on this new light of info.