Forums and the young

[Moonpie.Express]

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Columns/articleId=124526

Another sad situation.

[Derek88]

I feel bad for the parents.

(whether or not it's their fault- that's another discussion)

[ProtoType5]

Sucks that he took 4 other people with him.....at least he kept it off the road and on a private airstrip...

I'll never have that problem...My son is getting my P5 in 12 years...and it'll still be slow....maybe even slower than it is now...

[evilmonkeyMSP]

why would a parent let their 18 year old get behind the wheel of a powerful sports sedan such as that? That was irresponsible.

[happy and angry]

Maybe he was taking it late at night without permission. Maybe his parents thought he was being responsible. Who knows? Responsibility for the stupid choices made behind the wheel ultimately reside with the person driving.

[evilmonkeyMSP]

to an extent...but putting 500hp under the right foot of any teenager on the steer is not a good idea. no matter how responsible you think they are, that pedal will still call their name...
Maybe he was taking it late at night without permission. Maybe his parents thought he was being responsible. Who knows? Responsibility for the stupid choices made behind the wheel ultimately reside with the person driving.

[happy and angry]

There is no "to an extent" about it. He was 18, old enough to vote, old enough to be tried as an adult. He's responsible for his choices and his actions. You can't blame the parents for having a nice car, and you can't blame them for letting their son, who they loved, for driving it. I certainly wouldn't let my children drive such a powerful car at such a young age without serious restrictions (IE: me being in the vehicle), but that doesn't make the parents of this kid "to blame."

[evilmonkeyMSP]

did i say they were to blame? no. I said it was irresponsible.

[CantCMe]

very sad...

[JamJam]

I know many teenagers that drive cars that far exceed that horsepower. They drive the cars to the strip and back and they are responsible. If they drove home like an idiot and killed someone it would have nothing to do with their parents.

[clos561]

Thanks, guys, don't get me wrong," AmericanM5 wrote. "I never said I didn't respect your wisdom. Thanks for the welcome, and I am looking forward to getting to know you guys better...and I plan to have all the pics up tomorrow. Josh."


That sucks, I honestly blame the parents for letting their son drive the M5. unfortunately he killed all his passengers.

[KronixKid22]

It seems like you keep reading more stories like this everyday... :(

[CantCMe]

I had a 'Stang that had about 400whp when I was 18, but I didn't have a sense of invincibility like these kids do. But if the car was my dad's, there would be NO WAY IN HELL (!) that he would let me drive it without him being with me. NO F*CKIN' WAY! I feel sometimes (some) parents just give these kids the keys just to get them outta their faces. Crazy...

[clos561]

if it was my dads car...i would Be super careful not to fuck it up...prolyl do some sprints on some clear str8s

[Sierra117]

I do have to say, there is some semblance of responsibility here. Afterall, at least he wasn't trying it on a public street.

I used to work at a BMW dealership, and those M5s are no joke at all. Even though they have 500hp with all the nannies turned off, people still underestimate them. They think yeah, its got the power, but its a heavy sedan. Not really all that much. We would take out the ones we had on lot all the time, well, not as much as the M3s, but we took them out quite a bit. I was only brave enough to kill all the stability things once, click the M button, run the full power. That thing will dead you real fast. You punch the gas, and it doesn't give you a chance to think if you really wanna do that. It just sits, shits, and gits.

We had one customer bring his in for some go fast work. Replaced the filters, ran new headers and exhaust, no cats, and did some ecu tuning to it. Bit of suspension bits, and new wheels. The owner took us out in it afterwards. It pulled clean and hard all damn near all the way to the century mark. He sent us a video not to long afterwards of him taking on, and taking out, a Gallardo from a roll.

[wolverine_man]

While I agree with the thoughts of the parent's irresponsibility, a lot of it also comes down to common sense and driver responsibility. I say that having been allowed to use my father's 911 and brand new M3 sedan when I was in highschool at the age of 17. They were two very fast cars, but I always drove responsibly. Someone looking to drive full tilt on a straightaway (i.e. airport runway) and little experience is dancing with death.

As for me, I had a 1987 Isuzu Trooper (4 cyl manual) for my first ride in High School. Thing had like 74 hp and was slow as molasses but it was in great shape, no rust (orig. from New Mexico).

[Haltech]

My first car was 1969 Mach 1 that i spent two years prior with my dad working on it every weekend, getting her ready for my 16th bday. My dad taught me how to respect what i own and how dangerous the vehicle can be. He set me straight and i respected that car and was responsible. My father taught me the rules and taking races to the strips. We built a 351-C to a 440 cube stroker. The car dyno'd in at over 500hp naturally aspirated.

The ony people you can blame are the parents for not educating their child.

[S.A.MSP]

just wow...

[JamJam]

I know the car is fast but my first car was a corolla GTS and it would hit 120-130......It will make you just as dead as the M5 would have. Yea its sad what happened but this kid was irresponsible and took many lives with his bad decisions. Shoot I know a 18 year old that could afford his own M5 because of a internet venture. He owns his own house and lives a dream. He is responsible and a very smart kid. If he did this, would we still be pointing fingers at the parents for being irresponsible. I would hope not! It was a bad decision on the kids part, not the parents! Did this kid have a restricted license that says "cannot drive a car over 100 hp" Stop pointing the fingers at the parents and start pointing them at the kid who made the wrong decision.

[Bravnik]

This is just another shining example of irresponsable parents. End of story.

We had this wonderful discussion just the other day. Kids saying they were responsible enough to drive and that the parents were not to blame.

Please note, this kid said the EXACT same things on the 25th and less than 12 hours later he was Dead. Kids + Fast Cars do not mix. Parents that buy their kids a fast car are ignorant and irresponsable and should blame nobody but themselves when their kid makes the news killing themselves or others.

In the case of the M5 and the case of the MS3 the other day, the stupidity started with the PARENTS and ended with the Kids. I guess the apple truely does not fall far from the tree.

I just hope those kids on this forum and others that own a MS3 or faster car learn something. I will not hold my breath......

[Bravnik]

I know the car is fast but my first car was a corolla GTS and it would hit 120-130......It will make you just as dead as the M5 would have. Yea its sad what happened but this kid was irresponsible and took many lives with his bad decisions. Shoot I know a 18 year old that could afford his own M5 because of a internet venture. He owns his own house and lives a dream. He is responsible and a very smart kid. If he did this, would we still be pointing fingers at the parents for being irresponsible. I would hope not! It was a bad decision on the kids part, not the parents! Did this kid have a restricted license that says "cannot drive a car over 100 hp" Stop pointing the fingers at the parents and start pointing them at the kid who made the wrong decision.

I made the quote above and I will make it again here. The stupidity and irresponsibility started with the Parent and ended with the KID. Accept reality. Had the parents not allowed him to drive/own that car, he and his buddies would be alive today. Every action has a reaction as that is just the way life works. The parents allowed him to drive the car and that decision ended in the death of 5 people.......The Parents are responsible just as much as he is.

[CantCMe]

Parents need to spend time with their children...then they will find out if they're responsible or not. If they do that, and have common sense, more likely than not they're not gonna give an 18 year old keys to a damn M5...I mean, I feel for them for losing a child (plus all of the other angry parents wanting to kill them) but gee whiz when will enuf be enuf?

[JamJam]

I made the quote above and I will make it again here. The stupidity and irresponsibility started with the Parent and ended with the KID. Accept reality. Had the parents not allowed him to drive/own that car, he and his buddies would be alive today. Every action has a reaction as that is just the way life works. The parents allowed him to drive the car and that decision ended in the death of 5 people.......The Parents are responsible just as much as he is.

I agree the parents have some fault in this story, but the 18 year old could have done the same thing in a corolla so would we still be talking about this. It was the ADULTS(18 year old) decision to drive like a idiot! Dont get me wrong I would never have let the 18 year old use the car, not because hes a 18 year old because the car is worth so much money.

Almost like punishing the gun industry instead of the murder who used the gun.

[Moonpie.Express]

I want to apologize. I just remembered the post from a few days ago. The last thing I wanted to do here was to stir up the same shit.

People (like myself) have some very strong feelings about this topic. I just thought about the Forum and what is sometimes said to some of these kids. I in no way think the forum, or anyone that posts, is responsible for some of these results.
It is so easy today to see the news, and every bad thing that happens, from across the country. I, like many, never had this kind of info growing up. Everything was local.

I just want the younger members of this forum to take heed and realize that life has many paths. A little caution everyonce in awhile is not a bad thing. When folks on this board give there opinion, it is not a bad idea to listen. More times than not, they have come by this knowledge due to experience.

Be careful out there and learn to chose your battles well.

[Sacrilicious]

yes, the kid could have done this in a toyota corolla...he could have done it in a geo metro!!! ...but the point of the matter is that in a fast car, you can get up to speed MUCH faster. all things equal, doing stupid things at 25mph is a lot "safer" than doing stupid things at 50mph. if kids are going to do stupid things in whatever car they drive, then at LEAST restrict them from getting up to 120mph in just 1/4 mile!

regardless, this is a terrible tragedy for everyone involved, but i bet you any money all those parents are wishing like crazy that the car was a freakin 4 banger accord, because their chances of walking away from a crash created by the accord are MUCH higher than a crash they created with that M5...

[CantCMe]

I would just love to know who's idea (and why) it was to give the kid the keys...seriously.

[Sacrilicious]

I want to apologize. I just remembered the post from a few days ago. The last thing I wanted to do here was to stir up the same shit.

People (like myself) have some very strong feelings about this topic. I just thought about the Forum and what is sometimes said to some of these kids. I in no way think the forum, or anyone that posts, is responsible for some of these results.
It is so easy today to see the news, and every bad thing that happens, from across the country. I, like many, never had this kind of info growing up. Everything was local.

I just want the younger members of this forum to take heed and realize that life has many paths. A little caution everyonce in awhile is not a bad thing. When folks on this board give there opinion, it is not a bad idea to listen. More times than not, they have come by this knowledge due to experience.

Be careful out there and learn to chose your battles well.


don't worry about it, man...the moral of the story is definitely: "keep safe!" i don't care how responsible you think you are, but if not just for yourself, keep safe for your parents, your friends, your fellow drivers on the road, because as fun as cars are, doing stupid things in them get people killed. awareness is the only weapon we really have against this, so let's all keep safe and avoid doing stupid things in our zoom zooms!

[happy and angry]

This is just another shining example of irresponsable parents. End of story.

We had this wonderful discussion just the other day. Kids saying they were responsible enough to drive and that the parents were not to blame.

Please note, this kid said the EXACT same things on the 25th and less than 12 hours later he was Dead. Kids + Fast Cars do not mix. Parents that buy their kids a fast car are ignorant and irresponsable and should blame nobody but themselves when their kid makes the news killing themselves or others.

In the case of the M5 and the case of the MS3 the other day, the stupidity started with the PARENTS and ended with the Kids. I guess the apple truely does not fall far from the tree.

I just hope those kids on this forum and others that own a MS3 or faster car learn something. I will not hold my breath......While I agree that young drivers have no place behind the wheel of a fast car, I still can't wrap my head around you blaming the parents. At what point do you, and the rest of society, draw the line on personal responsibility? The age of majority doesn't count? What if he'd done it in a rental car his parents had co-signed? Does he start being responsible for his actions when he's 21? 25? When he buys his own car? When he moves out? Where do you draw the line?

I think giving kids a powerful car is just too big a temptation for most young drivers to handle, but that doesn't mean people that disagree with me are at fault for the illegal or stupid choices their children make, especially not when those kids are 18.

On top of that, the article doesn't go in to a lot of important details about the situation. Did he have permission to take the car or did he swipe the keys and go for a joyride? Was he an otherwise upstanding young man who normally behaved in a way that led his parents to trust him (perhaps more than they should)? etc etc etc. The list goes on.

I really think the parents are blaming themselves quite enough for all of us, regardless of the how or why this happened.

[ProtoType5]

Well, if I owned a 500 horsepower car and let a friend borrow it and he subsequently wrecked it and killed others in the process, I would assume that partial responsibility would rest on my shoulders...I would imagine my insurance company would also believe this as well...

Therefore, the parents do hold partial responsiblity for the accident, but they are not to BLAME for the accident...There is a enormous difference...especially in the legal aspect of this case..

[shane02pro5]

I guess it could have been worse if they were on the freeway!

That is so horrible! Every parents worst nightmare!!!

[Bravnik]

I agree the parents have some fault in this story, but the 18 year old could have done the same thing in a corolla so would we still be talking about this. It was the ADULTS(18 year old) decision to drive like a idiot! Dont get me wrong I would never have let the 18 year old use the car, not because hes a 18 year old because the car is worth so much money.

Almost like punishing the gun industry instead of the murder who used the gun.

Nope - I would never hold the Gun Industry responsible. However, you can bet your life that the law will hold the parents responsible if they go purchase a handgun for their 16year old and he goes to school with it and kills half his class.

The old "He could have done the same thing in a Corolla" does not fly ether. The reason is simple. I doubt very seriously anyone in a Corolla ever got the bug to say "Hey, lets drive down to the old airport and see what this baby can really do!!!". Nope, somehow I doubt that has ever come up in a Corolla.

You see, the MS3, M5 or any other sports car is what I like to call a Temptation. When you first feel the power you're a little scared. Then after sometime when you get use to the car the Temptaion hits to see what it can really do. As an adult in my 40's I STILL get tempted by fast cars. However, the differance is that I don't fall for it. I also don't have friend going "Hey man, this car is fast lets see what she can do" and if I did and I said "Nah it's too dangerous here" the LAST thing I would here at my age is "Ah man Don't be a Pussy!"

There are a thousand temptations and instances of peer pressure every day as a teenager/young adult. As you get older and mature, those temptations and peer pressure subside.

Lord knows I feel into the trap of temptation and peer pressure when I was younger. To be honest the ONLY reason why I'm typing this today is because I was LUCKY. Was I a good kid and stayed out of trouble? Yep, no trouble with the law, no accidents and no drug/alcohol issues. However, I did more than my share of drugs, had more run-ins with the law than I care to think about and I did things in my Mom's F150 at 16 that would make your head spin. I WAS LUCKY.

Had I drove a 13 second car at 16-18 would I be here today? Maybe. If I was Lucky. However, I didn't and it was because my parents would NEVER let me have one. Not because they couldn't afford one, as they could, but because they were responsible parents. Did I understand this when I was 16-18? Hell No! But I sure as hell do now.

[ProtoType5]

Got to give the poor kid the credit that he was responsible enough to go to a private airstrip to push the limits...

If we're talking about the gun industry...it there really any need to manufacture cars that are this amazingly over-powered??? Even those experienced adult drivers on the M5 forums talk like this beast is hard to handle....So we can blame the car industry and the gun industry...They do manufacture leading causes of death...

[JamJam]

While I agree that young drivers have no place behind the wheel of a fast car, I still can't wrap my head around you blaming the parents. At what point do you, and the rest of society, draw the line on personal responsibility? The age of majority doesn't count? What if he'd done it in a rental car his parents had co-signed? Does he start being responsible for his actions when he's 21? 25? When he buys his own car? When he moves out? Where do you draw the line?

I think giving kids a powerful car is just too big a temptation for most young drivers to handle, but that doesn't mean people that disagree with me are at fault for the illegal or stupid choices their children make, especially not when those kids are 18.

On top of that, the article doesn't go in to a lot of important details about the situation. Did he have permission to take the car or did he swipe the keys and go for a joyride? Was he an otherwise upstanding young man who normally behaved in a way that led his parents to trust him (perhaps more than they should)? etc etc etc. The list goes on.

I really think the parents are blaming themselves quite enough for all of us, regardless of the how or why this happened.

I served in the military with MANY 18 year old adults. They are responsible for carrying assault weapons and long range sniper rifles and are very capable of taking someones life and the USA gives them the right to do this. Maybe this is why I feel so opinionated about this story. I would trust many of them 18 year old ADULTS more so than some of the 25 year old SGT's I worked with. I have TopSecret clearence and when my paper work was going through the decision to get it had nothing to do with age. This 18 Year old is a ADULT and has the ability to make decisions on his own. If he murdered someone he would be tried as an adult and should be.


THE 18 YEAR old was a ADULT!!!!

[Bravnik]

While I agree that young drivers have no place behind the wheel of a fast car, I still can't wrap my head around you blaming the parents. At what point do you, and the rest of society, draw the line on personal responsibility? The age of majority doesn't count? What if he'd done it in a rental car his parents had co-signed? Does he start being responsible for his actions when he's 21? 25? When he buys his own car? When he moves out? Where do you draw the line?

I think giving kids a powerful car is just too big a temptation for most young drivers to handle, but that doesn't mean people that disagree with me are at fault for the illegal or stupid choices their children make, especially not when those kids are 18.

On top of that, the article doesn't go in to a lot of important details about the situation. Did he have permission to take the car or did he swipe the keys and go for a joyride? Was he an otherwise upstanding young man who normally behaved in a way that led his parents to trust him (perhaps more than they should)? etc etc etc. The list goes on.

I really think the parents are blaming themselves quite enough for all of us, regardless of the how or why this happened.

Its really simple man. Personal responsibility starts when you do something yourself. That was not the case here. He was given the keys to the car by one/both of his parents. When he said "Mon/Dad, can I have the keys to the M5 so I can go out with my friends tonight" it was his parent/s turn to play their part in this dance. At this point they hold responsibility for what happens.

Its the same thing if the kid walks up to dad and says "Dad, can I borrow the pistol tonight. There's a kid at school that picks on me and I need it for protection". No different in my mind. Giving him the gun didn't mean he was going to use it now did it?

So again. When your actions alone cause something then you're totally 100% responsible. When someone else's actions contribute to you doing something wrong, then they are to blame as well.

[happy and angry]

The old "He could have done the same thing in a Corolla" does not fly ether. The reason is simple. I doubt very seriously anyone in a Corolla ever got the bug to say "Hey, lets drive down to the old airport and see what this baby can really do!!!".Man, everyone I've ever known has said this about whatever beater car they had. Buddy of mine was happy the day he found out his beater Geo Metro could top 100mph with a tail wind, and at 100 mph, you're still just as dead if you screw up.

[happy and angry]

Its really simple man. Personal responsibility starts when you do something yourself.... like step on the gas pedal?
Its the same thing if the kid walks up to dad and says "Dad, can I borrow the pistol tonight. There's a kid at school that picks on me and I need it for protection". No different in my mind. Giving him the gun didn't mean he was going to use it now did it?This is sort of a dumb comparison. A car isn't a gun. It's not a weapon, and it's not designed to kill. Extend your analogy further - make an equivalent gun argument for "Dad can I borrow the M5" versus "Dad can I borrow the Corolla." Gonna call the Corolla an Airsoft pistol or something?
When your actions alone cause something then you're totally 100% responsible. When someone else's actions contribute to you doing something wrong, then they are to blame as well.I'm looking forward to a society that extends responsibility for murder to the mother that "contributed to" the actions of their children by giving birth to them.

The parents aren't responsible or to blame for the actions of their adult child.

[Bravnik]

I served in the military with MANY 18 year old adults. They are responsible for carrying assault weapons and long range sniper rifles and are very capable of taking someones life and the USA gives them the right to do this. Maybe this is why I feel so opinionated about this story. I would trust many of them 18 year old ADULTS more so than some of the 25 year old SGT's I worked with. I have TopSecret clearence and when my paper work was going through the decision to get it had nothing to do with age. This 18 Year old is a ADULT and has the ability to make decisions on his own. If he murdered someone he would be tried as an adult and should be.


THE 18 YEAR old was a ADULT!!!!

9years in the Military. TS Clerance for most of it. When you open that safe and the 2nd witness is there and says "Hey man. Lemme copy this real quick" if you go sure NP, your ass will fry just like his in the Court Martial.

It's the same thing. The parents who were the decision makers on if he got the car or not are responsible for his actions just as much as he is. They had the same choice....yes or no....they chose yes.

[wolverine_man]

Well, if I owned a 500 horsepower car and let a friend borrow it and he subsequently wrecked it and killed others in the process, I would assume that partial responsibility would rest on my shoulders...I would imagine my insurance company would also believe this as well...

Therefore, the parents do hold partial responsiblity for the accident, but they are not to BLAME for the accident...There is a enormous difference...especially in the legal aspect of this case..

This is a very good point. Some states have automobile lending statues, which make the owner (lender) of the vehicle responsible for the actions of the driver (borrower), regardless of whether the owner was in the car at the time. Simple rule of thumb, NEVER lend your car to anyone.

[happy and angry]

This is a very good point. Some states have automobile lending statues, which make the owner (lender) of the vehicle responsible for the actions of the driver (borrower)For the purposes of insurance, not actual legal responsibility. Someone causes an accident in your car and leads to people being killed, your insurance pays out, but the driver is legally responsible.

AND, that sort of law is in place to help ensure that in the case of the driver not having their own insurance, someone can still cover the accident. Not to place "blame" on the person who lent the car to someone else.

[BHOUST528]

this is a sad story five young men lost there lives...4 of which lost there lives for someones immaturrity...he was proly just wanting to show friends the balls this car had and in this case it got the best of all of them... dont condone driving a car like that with passengers in the car at all...if you want to drive balls to the wall by yourself thats one thing you risk your life...my thoughts and prayers go out to all the parents...but i do agree with everyones post on its the parents fault you dont give an 16-18yr boy imo a 500+ hp car its sinceless....he would of been fine with a ms3...no...same thing could have happend in any case but you need to explain to your kids dont drive like an ass take it to the track...be safe and mind surroudings....

[wolverine_man]

Sorta right. It actually depends upon if your state is a no-fault jurisidiction like in Michigan in which case a mini-tort action is brought for any serious bodily injury or death. And of course, you have policy limits on your auto insurance coverage personal injury.

[Loose]

Kinda close to home for me here in Jacksonville....


One of the backseat passengers was a freshman here at Jacksonville University and played football.

article: http://www.news4jax.com/news/15146478/detail.html

[happy and angry]

The parents who were the decision makers on if he got the car or not are responsible for his actions just as much as he is. They had the same choice....yes or no....they chose yes.Correlation is not causation. The parents chose to let their son drive their car, which put him behind the wheel when the accident happened, but this doesn't mean their parents caused it to happen. Say it with me: correlation is not causation.

Take the EXACT SAME STORY and change the car from an M5 to a Toyota Corolla, and tell me if you still blame the parents. The vehicle is irrelevant as far as blame for who caused the accident goes. Kids go out in slow cars and do stupid things at high speeds ALL THE TIME. If this kid's parents didn't have money, he might have done this in a Cavalier instead.

[lasermp5]

Been out to that community several times. I must say it's eerie to think about... 4 of my peers having their lives cut short so suddenly in such a tragic fashion. That said, I'm 20, almost 21. Even though I've had no "incidents" over the past view years, ie tickets, accidents, etc... I've really just come to the realization on my own that a lot of the stuff I used to do when I was +/- 18 was stupid. Anything over 85-90mph on the highway is useless and stupid. Taking that fun corner at 40 in the P5 just isn't fun anymore... it's stupid.

When I was 16, I was close to having a race built 95 e36 M3 as my first car (this (http://www.stashus.com/Images/car%20images/M3/bmw.htm)). That car would have been a dream come true, and I still fantasize about it till this day. I was close to having it, and looking back I thank god I never got it.

Guess the point I'm making is that I said I was a "responsible" driver at 17, but looking back I know that having that BMW would not have been good. I said I was a responsible driver at 18, yet I still goofed around. I've been fortunate enough to develop insight over the past few years not as a result of my own accident, but just growing up I suppose. Just from my own experience, the learning curve from 6/17 to early/mid 20s is steep.

Thus: hold off on the fast cars. Get out and autox instead. No matter how responsible you think you are, the temptation is just too great. My son (like me) will receive a fun, dependable, but ultimately slow fwd car. If I own anything like that M5, he will not be driving it without me in the car.

idk where else I'm going with this... it's just so sad. Hits close to home.

Everyone, please drive safe. If you have kids, don't put them behind the wheel of anything like that. If you are a kid (shit, I am) do your best to hurry up and realize it's not worth it... I know it sucks, life is short, and you want to have fun, but just think about the consequences. Don't let this happen to you or your friends. This post sounds preachy and everything, but idk how else to put it. Be safe, please!

[lc_MS3]

This is just another shining example of irresponsable parents. End of story.

We had this wonderful discussion just the other day. Kids saying they were responsible enough to drive and that the parents were not to blame.

Please note, this kid said the EXACT same things on the 25th and less than 12 hours later he was Dead. Kids + Fast Cars do not mix. Parents that buy their kids a fast car are ignorant and irresponsable and should blame nobody but themselves when their kid makes the news killing themselves or others.

In the case of the M5 and the case of the MS3 the other day, the stupidity started with the PARENTS and ended with the Kids. I guess the apple truely does not fall far from the tree.

I just hope those kids on this forum and others that own a MS3 or faster car learn something. I will not hold my breath......

Not to start this same fight back up, but if you read the artical, the parents didn't buy him the car. It was the parents car they let the kid use.

I will not hold my breath......
Why say something like this?


Was I a good kid and stayed out of trouble? Yep, no trouble with the law, no accidents and no drug/alcohol issues. However, I did more than my share of drugs, had more run-ins with the law than I care to think about and I did things in my Mom's F150 at 16 that would make your head spin. I WAS LUCKY.

Once again not to start anything, but the bolded text is contradictory. Not to mention you admitted to drug use in the last round of this ongoing e-fight.



As in the last case of this, be a human and give your prayers to the family (even if you think the parents are responsible, think of grandparents)

[Bravnik]

... like step on the gas pedal?This is sort of a dumb comparison. A car isn't a gun. It's not a weapon, and it's not designed to kill. Extend your analogy further - make an equivalent gun argument for "Dad can I borrow the M5" versus "Dad can I borrow the Corolla." Gonna call the Corolla an Airsoft pistol or something?I'm looking forward to a society that extends responsibility for murder to the mother that "contributed to" the actions of their children by giving birth to them.

The parents aren't responsible or to blame for the actions of their adult child.


Its not the car or the gun per say that I'm comparing but the responsibility of the parents to say no in a situation where appropriate.

The parents are responsible for making the decision to give the keys to their 18 year old son who killed himself with it. If they said no, he and his 4 friends would be alive. There is no way to argue that fact.

[lc_MS3]

Its not the car or the gun per say that I'm comparing but the responsibility of the parents to say no in a situation where appropriate.

The parents are responsible for making the decision to give the keys to their 18 year old son who killed himself with it. If they said no, he and his 4 friends would be alive. There is no way to argue that fact.

Once again, how did the parents know their kid was going to do that? It is easy to say k=now that the accident has happened, but for all we know he was a model child (I know its hard for most to believe, but some of us are good). My dad has let me take his Vette for a drive, but I have respect for the car, and him. I know if I fucked it up (or myself) I would be in deep sh*t. For that fact I would never do that. So not wanting to start this fight again, but the kid being 18 should be the one (if we were going to) blamed here. If he is old enough to help decide how the country is run, he is old enough to be able to make an educated move.

[evilmonkeyMSP]

it has nothing to do w/ them knowing he would do that....its the fact that they gave him the opportunity.
Once again, how did the parents know their kid was going to do that? It is easy to say k=now that the accident has happened, but for all we know he was a model child (I know its hard for most to believe, but some of us are good). My dad has let me take his Vette for a drive, but I have respect for the car, and him. I know if I fucked it up (or myself) I would be in deep sh*t. For that fact I would never do that. So not wanting to start this fight again, but the kid being 18 should be the one (if we were going to) blamed here. If he is old enough to help decide how the country is run, he is old enough to be able to make an educated move.

[Bravnik]

Not to start this same fight back up, but if you read the artical, the parents didn't buy him the car. It was the parents car they let the kid use.

I will not hold my breath......
Why say something like this?



Once again not to start anything, but the bolded text is contradictory. Not to mention you admitted to drug use in the last round of this ongoing e-fight.



As in the last case of this, be a human and give your prayers to the family (even if you think the parents are responsible, think of grandparents)

It is contradictory to what my parents thought about me. It is also contradictory to how my life looks on paper and the reality of how I was.

Giving keys...buying the car. Its all the same. The decision was one of many that day that = Death.

[lc_MS3]

It is contradictory to what my parents thought about me. It is also contradictory to how my life looks on paper and the reality of how I was.

Giving keys...buying the car. Its all the same. The decision was one of many that day that = Death.

My bad on the contradiction, the way I read it I must have missed. Three question, what did your father have when you grew up? Did you ever want to drive it? Did he let you?

[Kobyoshi]

I served in the military with MANY 18 year old adults. They are responsible for carrying assault weapons and long range sniper rifles and are very capable of taking someones life and the USA gives them the right to do this. Maybe this is why I feel so opinionated about this story. I would trust many of them 18 year old ADULTS more so than some of the 25 year old SGT's I worked with. I have TopSecret clearence and when my paper work was going through the decision to get it had nothing to do with age. This 18 Year old is a ADULT and has the ability to make decisions on his own. If he murdered someone he would be tried as an adult and should be.


THE 18 YEAR old was a ADULT!!!!

You are right.

BUT you were trained by your employer the responsibility with your TOP SECRET clearance and the consequences of not following rules.
Just as the military boys that carry a Barret .50 cal know EXACTLY what it can do and the results of pulling the trigger.

Too many parents don't grace their children with the same respect or knowledge of the killing power of an automobile...

an uninformed kid just killed himself and others...

It is a parents responsibility to teach their children. No one else.

[Bravnik]

Question:

1. Ford Thunderbird LTD (Mom) 65 Ford Failane K series with 298HI Full Race (Dad)
2. Yep
3. All the time.

Drove the LTD all the time till Mom got her F150. Never got to take the LTD out at night. But oh what I did in the F150 :).

Now the 65 Ford Fairlane - Only drove it with my Dad in the car. That car was scary fast. He had enough sense to not let me take it out alone.

[wolverine_man]

Bravnik why does your avatar make me wanna puke? I demand you put up some chick in a thong or something.

[Bravnik]

Bravnik why does your avatar make me wanna puke? I demand you put up some chick in a thong or something.

In some sick way I think it's funny :)

I could put up a really fat chic in a Thong if you want?

[jaydubz]

I do have to say, there is some semblance of responsibility here. Afterall, at least he wasn't trying it on a public street.

I used to work at a BMW dealership, and those M5s are no joke at all. Even though they have 500hp with all the nannies turned off, people still underestimate them. They think yeah, its got the power, but its a heavy sedan. Not really all that much. We would take out the ones we had on lot all the time, well, not as much as the M3s, but we took them out quite a bit. I was only brave enough to kill all the stability things once, click the M button, run the full power. That thing will dead you real fast. You punch the gas, and it doesn't give you a chance to think if you really wanna do that. It just sits, shits, and gits.

We had one customer bring his in for some go fast work. Replaced the filters, ran new headers and exhaust, no cats, and did some ecu tuning to it. Bit of suspension bits, and new wheels. The owner took us out in it afterwards. It pulled clean and hard all damn near all the way to the century mark. He sent us a video not to long afterwards of him taking on, and taking out, a Gallardo from a roll.


Buddy of mine from my Vee Dub days used to work at the local BMW Dealership and also described a gentleman who had bought a M5 and decided it needed the full go fast package which included heads, manifolds, Dinan reflashed ECU and some exhaust work and he claimed the car became a rocket. I would fear that much power actually, 300 hp would be more than enough for me!

[happy and angry]

But oh what I did in the F150 .Would you have held your parents responsible for the stupid stuff you did in a truck had it gone poorly for you? Or are the parents only to blame when they have the money to buy expensive cars for daily drivers?

[Bravnik]

Would you have held your parents responsible for the stupid stuff you did in a truck had it gone poorly for you? Or are the parents only to blame when they have the money to buy expensive cars for daily drivers?

I guess you missed the part about him having enough sense to not let me take the Fairlane out alone. By limiting my access to the F150 and then purchasing me a mint 71 Ford Ranger F150 as my first car (You see my family liked the classics) they helped keep me from killing myself. Did I abuse my Truck.....you bet. Could I do 140 and 13secs in it.....nope. Think god!

[wolverine_man]

In some sick way I think it's funny :)

I could put up a really fat chic in a Thong if you want?

That's alright, tell your gf to leave her clothes on. JK (naughty)

[lc_MS3]

I guess you missed the part about him having enough sense to not let me take the Fairlane out alone. By limiting my access to the F150 and then purchasing me a mint 71 Ford Ranger F150 as my first car (You see my family liked the classics) they helped keep me from killing myself. Did I abuse my Truck.....you bet. Could I do 140 and 13secs in it.....nope. Think god!

I believe he meant to say, would you have blamed your parents if you got in an accident while doing stupid shit in the truck?

[Bravnik]

No because they tried and didn't let me drive the Fairlane. They said NO no matter how many times I asked....IE. Responsible Parenting.

[lc_MS3]

No because they tried and didn't let me drive the Fairlane. They said NO no matter how many times I asked....IE. Responsible Parenting.

Your avoiding the question, IF YOU CRASHED THE TRUCK, WOULD YOU BLAME YOUR PARENTS?

[Bravnik]

Ah - I didn't avoid anything. I said NO because shy of not letting me drive at all, they did their best, they were responsible by not letting me drive the fast car even though I begged all the time. If I would have killed myself in the truck then so be it. My fault.

[kickniteasy]

I'm sorry, letting a kid that age drive a car like like is irresponsible on the parents part. Why let your kid drive a car built for performance and expect him to do anything less than to try and drive it the way it was intended to be driven. Is it completely their fault he went out and crashed/killed himself.....no, that was the kid's decision. However, the parents should assume some of the responsibility for putting their child in a dangerous situation.....ie: young kid and fast car. My parents gave me a 93 escort hatch...if I went out and crahsed it trying to top it out that'd be my fault, but at least they didn't give me something with the capability and temptation to go that fast and be that reckless at that young an age.

[happy and angry]

I guess you missed the part about him having enough sense to not let me take the Fairlane out alone. By limiting my access to the F150 and then purchasing me a mint 71 Ford Ranger F150 as my first car (You see my family liked the classics) they helped keep me from killing myself. Did I abuse my Truck.....you bet. Could I do 140 and 13secs in it.....nope. Think god!Again: had you done something stupid in it and end up dead or having killed someone else, would you have held them responsible? Because an F150 is more than powerful enough to get dead in - any car is. You're avoiding the question.

[lc_MS3]

Ah - I didn't avoid anything. I said NO because shy of not letting me drive at all, they did their best, they were responsible by not letting me drive the fast car even though I begged all the time. If I would have killed myself in the truck then so be it. My fault.

That is the point. If what you were doing would have killed you what difference does it make if you are in a truck or a bimmer?

[Akaveli]

Wtf...this is just crazy, couple days ago we was discussing this.

[happy and angry]

If I would have killed myself in the truck then so be it. My fault.So it's your fault if you die in a slow car, but die in a fast car and blame the parents? The parents do well enough to afford nice cars, you're fortunate enough to be born to them, and because your dad has an M5 in the garage he lets you borrow instead of your mom's SL500, your parents are to blame?

Wow, dude. That's pretty special logic there.

[lc_MS3]

http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=news/local&id=5902266

Did the car have anything to do with this kid crashing?^^^^

[wolverine_man]

I was allowed to drive two hig performance vehicles with my father's permission when I was only 17. However, I was an extremely responsible and smart teenager - the kind who is more interested in studying and getting all As, than showing off and partying.

Most alarming about this situation, which has been mentioned, is that this kid brought along his friends to partake in this completely reckless behavior.

[Witchdoktor]

what do we have here? another teenager with irresponsible parents who killed/injured people with a fast car

not sure why mods closed last thread like this

[lc_MS3]

what do we have here? another teenager with irresponsible parents who killed/injured people with a fast car

not sure why mods closed last thread like this

Probably because some people have no hearts, and want to lynch the parents for their childs bad decision.

[Bravnik]

Again: had you done something stupid in it and end up dead or having killed someone else, would you have held them responsible? Because an F150 is more than powerful enough to get dead in - any car is. You're avoiding the question.


That is the point. If what you were doing would have killed you what difference does it make if you are in a truck or a bimmer?

Do you guys read what you write? I answered this question already 2 times. The point is responsible parenting here, not if I kill myself on a skateboard. I probably would have killed myself or wrecked the Fairlane as it was fast as hell and WAY too much car for me at 16. My parents were responsible by NOT letting me drive the Fairlane and also by not letting me get the Trans Am I wanted when I was 16. I had no choice in the car I got.

The whole point was that its IRRESPONSIBLE for a parent to let a 16-18year old drive a 240+HP car. That it's a parents job is to try to protect their child and not increase their risk by buying them a sports car and hope and pray they have enough snap to respect it.

Any parent that thinks they can get their kid a sports car and their not going to test its limits is an utter fool. That's like saying my kid will NEVER smoke or do drugs....the odds are that they will if they have not already done so. I would MUCH rather my kid test the limits of a Civic than an MS3 or M5.

[Ebruess]

It's one thing to put yourself in danger out on a closed track but it's another to endanger your friends lives too. I'm 17 years old and I have been behind the wheel of many fast sports car due to some great opportunities I have had. It takes responsibility to drive a high powered sports car. It's truly sad that five lives were lost because of one person's irresponsible choices.

[RelliMS3]

I'd be curious to see some kind of figure that shows if it is more common, or how much more common for kids to kill themselves in high performance cars. Sure they can go faster but they stop and handle a hell of a lot better. I'm sure plenty of kids die in plain old beaters too. I'm curious if anyone has proof of if any type of car is more dangerous. I think people are too quickly assuming that fast cars=death.

[jbiird317]

what do we have here? another teenager with irresponsible parents who killed/injured people with a fast car

not sure why mods closed last thread like this

the last thread was getting out of hand with ppl arguing, this one seems civil

this really is a sad situation, i know most young drivers want to think they have great skills. Some may have skills, but there is no skill that can replace experience on the roads.

as for the parents. Im 23 and my dad got a used 540i 2 years ago, still I have only driven it once, and he was in the passenger seat. my car is probly just as powerful, but its all about having respect for it. I paid for that car, so obviously im gonna be careful with it. as for my dads, because of his restriction i respect it; tossing a kid the keys to a 100,000 dollar car is pretty much just rolling over and letting ur kids do whatever they want. im not saying the parents are at fault, but they are certainly not helping the situation any.

[lc_MS3]

Do you guys read what you write? I answered this question already 2 times. The point is responsible parenting here, not if I kill myself on a skateboard. I probably would have killed myself or wrecked the Fairlane as it was fast as hell and WAY too much car for me at 16. My parents were responsible by NOT letting me drive the Fairlane and also by not letting me get the Trans Am I wanted when I was 16. I had no choice in the car I got.

The whole point was that its IRRESPONSIBLE for a parent to let a 16-18year old drive a 240+HP car. That it's a parents job is to try to protect their child and not increase their risk by buying them a sports car and hope and pray they have enough snap to respect it.

Any parent that thinks they can get their kid a sports car and their not going to test its limits is an utter fool. That's like saying my kid will NEVER smoke or do drugs....the odds are that they will if they have not already done so. I would MUCH rather my kid test the limits of a Civic than an MS3 or M5.


When you admit to doing drugs and stupid shit in a f150, you are going against everything else you say. If you did stupid shit in that, what would you have done in a trans-am? The point is, not all kids are like what you and your friends might have been like. Some of us really don't care what others think or feel a need to always be proving ourselves or our cars. I don't do stupid stuff like that because I value my life and my car. Did my parents make a mistake? They don't think so but that is THEIR opinion, we all have them. Don't think only teens in "fast" cars die. Google how many kids die in Civics. (google)!!!

[Bravnik]

When you admit to doing drugs and stupid shit in a f150, you are going against everything else you say. If you did stupid shit in that, what would you have done in a trans-am? The point is, not all kids are like what you and your friends might have been like. Some of us really don't care what others think or feel a need to always be proving ourselves or our cars. I don't do stupid stuff like that because I value my life and my car. Did my parents make a mistake? They don't think so but that is THEIR opinion, we all have them. Don't think only teens in "fast" cars die. Google how many kids die in Civics. (google)!!!

Dont' forget...this is basically the same type of post that kid made the night before he died.

[lc_MS3]

creina1221
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I havn't read all of the posts on this, but I am seeing several comments about the fact that "it was such a fast car" playing a heavy factor into this accident. I just want to drop a little comment regarding that. Working in the insurance claims field, both office and field work, these types of accidents occur more often with 'average' cars than they do with "fast" cars. I'm sure the fact that it was in fact a fast car may have had an influence on the boys decision making, however, these kinds of accidents happen all of the time, and they happen in pick up trucks, suv's, old cars, new cars, motorcyles.

This specific accident is very unfortunate, if just one of so many factors were different, the kids may have survived. Had the other veh not been a hummer for instance. The hummer clearly sustained heavy sway frame damage but its' a full frame vehicle, not necessarily designed to take an impact. it does have crush zones, but not like one of another unibdy vehicle. Not saying they would've survived for sure, but definitely more of a chance.

I just don't feel the responsibility can't but put soley on the parents as they didn't make the decision to go left of center, Our MS3's are fast cars, but they're also safe. Had they been in an 89 Lebaron (like my first car when I was 16), they could've been killed in a deer crash. Clearly in this accident, 6 airbags didnt mean much but it's just a mixture of unfortunate circumstances which lead to devestating results, and it's a shame one poor decision lead to such an ending.

[lc_MS3]

Dont' forget...this is basically the same type of post that kid made the night before he died.

That is an a** hole thing to say. Really. (no)(smash) And it isn't.

[Bravnik]

Ah you might want to read the forum posts? You're not saying anything any different than he did at all. Truth is not an Asshole thing to say...it's called the truth.

[jbiird317]

well this thread WAS civil, now are you guys trying to prove me wrong?? lets keep this under control because its an important subject for high performance car owners like us

[Bravnik]

Sorry man...not trying to be uncivil.

[HIGHBRED8]

you know, yes it probably was not the best idea to give someone that young that much of a car, not just for the power factor but also if he has an m5 at 18
then what will he expect to have at 21 etc. personally i think you need to learn the value of things to respect them. thats the prob i have with giving teenagers car like this. but in the end like its been said. he can vote, smoke, go to war he can take responsibility for this. and i see a lot of bashing when such things happen but when people here post videos of how fast they can get to 140 mph everyone says yay wow your car is sick or i want those mods. that to me is just as irresponsible. so its an extremely sad fate for him and his friends, even more so for their parents. but it wont be the last and in my work i see it first hand because i have to go get them and see the horrific faces of everyone involved first hand. unless you have experienced this then have a heart and try to not be so harsh.

[wolverine_man]

Can we again reiterate that this was NOT the kid's car, but, rather, a car lent to him my his parents.

[HIGHBRED8]

either way my point is the guy was old enough to take responsibility. granted it wasnt the brightest choice the parents could of made but at 18 you can take responsibility for this.

[JamJam]

either way my point is the guy was old enough to take responsibility. granted it wasnt the brightest choice the parents could of made but at 18 you can take responsibility for this.

Thats the main point! HE IS 18 and an ADULT....where is the confusion here? I'm sorry but at 18 my Parents trusted me and they had no reason not too. I understand some people on here cannot understand that someone is capable of making their owns decisions at the age of 18 and be responsible for that decision. NO ONE on here knows this kid, the parents or the life they led. I don't care what kind of car was used in this unfortunate incident but it had nothing to do with the car itself. It had to do with the DECISION the 18 year old ADULT made. It makes no difference if he was doing 150 on that runway or 90, he would have been just as dead in a metro or a M5 and since no one here KNOWS the situation and why he was out there than we cant blame anyone but the 18 Year old ADULT that made this mistake.

I don't know maybe i just look at 18 year old ADULTS a little differently than most. I mean they can die for this country, Vote, and face the death penalty if they murder someone. Why is it so hard to believe a 18 year old ADULT can not make a responsible decision. Yes there are kids out there that should never be behind the wheel of a car like that, I can say the same thing about some or most ADULTS.

He is recognized by law to be an ADULT so why is it so hard for us to do the same. In my book all ADULTS are responsible for their decisions no matter who supplies the tool they use to follow through with their decision.

[3.slow]

Well put.

[lc_MS3]

Ah you might want to read the forum posts? You're not saying anything any different than he did at all. Truth is not an Asshole thing to say...it's called the truth.

The kid said, "I never said I didn't respect your wisdom. Thanks for the welcome, and I am looking forward to getting to know you guys better...and I plan to have all the pics up tomorrow. Josh." I didn't say anything of the sort.


well this thread WAS civil, now are you guys trying to prove me wrong?? lets keep this under control because its an important subject for high performance car owners like us

As Bravnik said, not trying to make the thread uncivil, but what he said basically implied that he thought I was going to die tonight. And to me that is a pretty messed up thing to say to anyone. Do you disagree?


Thats the main point! HE IS 18 and an ADULT....where is the confusion here? I'm sorry but at 18 my Parents trusted me and they had no reason not too. I understand some people on here cannot understand that someone is capable of making their owns decisions at the age of 18 and be responsible for that decision. NO ONE on here knows this kid, the parents or the life they led. I don't care what kind of car was used in this unfortunate incident but it had nothing to do with the car itself. It had to do with the DECISION the 18 year old ADULT made. It makes no difference if he was doing 150 on that runway or 90, he would have been just as dead in a metro or a M5 and since no one here KNOWS the situation and why he was out there than we cant blame anyone but the 18 Year old ADULT that made this mistake.

I don't know maybe i just look at 18 year old ADULTS a little differently than most. I mean they can die for this country, Vote, and face the death penalty if they murder someone. Why is it so hard to believe a 18 year old ADULT can not make a responsible decision. Yes there are kids out there that should never be behind the wheel of a car like that, I can say the same thing about some or most ADULTS.

He is recognized by law to be an ADULT so why is it so hard for us to do the same. In my book all ADULTS are responsible for their decisions no matter who supplies the tool they use to follow through with their decision.

Thank you. Can this argument be put to rest until the next crash made public?

[HIGHBRED8]

+1

[JamJam]

The kid said, "I never said I didn't respect your wisdom. Thanks for the welcome, and I am looking forward to getting to know you guys better...and I plan to have all the pics up tomorrow. Josh." I didn't say anything of the sort.



As Bravnik said, not trying to make the thread uncivil, but what he said basically implied that he thought I was going to die tonight. And to me that is a pretty messed up thing to say to anyone. Do you disagree?



Thank you. Can this argument be put to rest until the next crash made public?

This forum and group of people on here are awesome! This is a very sensitive subject and everyone handled themselves with maturity and respect!

[nealric]

Thats the main point! HE IS 18 and an ADULT....where is the confusion here? I'm sorry but at 18 my Parents trusted me and they had no reason not too. I understand some people on here cannot understand that someone is capable of making their owns decisions at the age of 18 and be responsible for that decision. NO ONE on here knows this kid, the parents or the life they led. I don't care what kind of car was used in this unfortunate incident but it had nothing to do with the car itself. It had to do with the DECISION the 18 year old ADULT made. It makes no difference if he was doing 150 on that runway or 90, he would have been just as dead in a metro or a M5 and since no one here KNOWS the situation and why he was out there than we cant blame anyone but the 18 Year old ADULT that made this mistake.

I don't know maybe i just look at 18 year old ADULTS a little differently than most. I mean they can die for this country, Vote, and face the death penalty if they murder someone. Why is it so hard to believe a 18 year old ADULT can not make a responsible decision. Yes there are kids out there that should never be behind the wheel of a car like that, I can say the same thing about some or most ADULTS.

He is recognized by law to be an ADULT so why is it so hard for us to do the same. In my book all ADULTS are responsible for their decisions no matter who supplies the tool they use to follow through with their decision.


While I agree with your opinion to some extent, it bears noting that the law in many cases does provide for parental liability even if the the child is an adult under the doctrines of negligent entrustment and family purpose (and possibly several others).

The precise extent this can happen varies state to state, but it is not an uncommon occurrence.

(This is not legal advice)

[JamJam]

While I agree with your opinion to some extent, it bears noting that the law in many cases does provide for parental liability even if the the child is an adult under the doctrines of negligent entrustment and family purpose (and possibly several others).

The precise extent this can happen varies state to state, but it is not an uncommon occurrence.

(This is not legal advice)

LOL thanks for the advice.!!!!! Can I call you if I ever make the wrong decision, or should I just blame it on my parents, I mean I am 33 maybe they can be a little responsible for something I do wrong.....Just a little

[nealric]

OL thanks for the advice.!!!!! Can I call you if I ever make the wrong decision, or should I just blame it on my parents, I mean I am 33 maybe they can be a little responsible for something I do wrong.....Just a little

Ahh... but there is the fun concept of joint and several liability. You and your parents could both, at the same time, be completely liable for something you did and they enabled (obviously under only very specific circumstances).

But, no, get a real lawyer if you get into trouble. I am still in law school.

[JamJam]

Ahh... but there is the fun concept of joint and several liability. You and your parents could both, at the same time, be completely liable for something you did and they enabled (obviously under only very specific circumstances).

But, no, get a real lawyer if you get into trouble. I am still in law school.

Just means I get a Discount!

[Bravnik]

Basically I'm done with this thread. Those that support the parents in there decision are all likely under 25 if not under 20. That in itself should tell you something.

Parents that buy their 16year old kids a sports car in my mind are irresponsible and taking a RISK with their kids lives by introducing a TEMPTATION that really does not need to be there. Period.

So anyway guys. If your 16-18 and drive a sports car. GL and Drive safe.

[Sveivo]

Very sad, sorry to read this.

[JamJam]

Basically I'm done with this thread. Those that support the parents in there decision are all likely under 25 if not under 20. That in itself should tell you something.

Parents that buy their 16year old kids a sports car in my mind are irresponsible and taking a RISK with their kids lives by introducing a TEMPTATION that really does not need to be there. Period.

So anyway guys. If your 16-18 and drive a sports car. GL and Drive safe.

Nope 33......Parents, what parents? I thought we were talking about an 18 year old that made the wrong decision. Don't see what age has to do with it anyways.....I can see you have little if no respect for peoples opinions if they are under a certain age!

That in itself should tell you something!

If I have taken your post the wrong way then I apologize.

[lc_MS3]

Nope 33......Parents, what parents? I thought we were talking about an 18 year old that made the wrong decision. Don't see what age has to do with it anyways.....I can see you have little if no respect for peoples opinions if they are under a certain age!

That in itself should tell you something!

If I have taken your post the wrong way then I apologize.

Finally someone with a brain who can agree here.

[jbiird317]

Nope 33......Parents, what parents? I thought we were talking about an 18 year old that made the wrong decision. Don't see what age has to do with it anyways.....I can see you have little if no respect for peoples opinions if they are under a certain age!

That in itself should tell you something!

If I have taken your post the wrong way then I apologize.

the only reason that age comes into play is because of lack of driving experience. This person was really not displaying a whole lot of adult behavior. Yes he is old enough to vote, die for his country, etc...but taking ur dad's car, bragging it is yours, then driving it recklessly while endangering other people, this is not exactly what i would call responsible behavior. I am not blaming anyone but the driver here, but I think that this situation couldve been avoided (or at least reduced the risk) had the parents recognized that their child was irresponsible and not given him the keys to a 300+ HP car.

[happy and angry]

Basically I'm done with this thread. Those that support the parents in there decision are all likely under 25 if not under 20.Wrong.
That in itself should tell you something.What does it tell us when it is wrong, exactly?
Parents that buy their 16year old kids a sports carThis article was about an 18 year old - legally an adult - who BORROWED their parents car.
in my mind are irresponsible and taking a RISK with their kids lives by introducing a TEMPTATION that really does not need to be there. Period.AGREED, but that's not what happened here. This was not a story about a minor driving around in his own sporty car. This was a story about an 18 year old driving around in their parents car, lying about who owned it on a message board to fit into a community, and who made some stupid choices. Was it too much car for him? Almost definitely - an M5 is too much car for almost anyone. Was it his parents fault he crashed the car? No more than it is the parents fault in any other accident where a child borrows a vehicle, either slow or fast.

Friends of mine have doctors for parents, and have always had SL's and A6's to drive, even when they were young drivers. Probably too much car for a young driver, but that's what they had. Their parents did everything they could to teach them personal responsibility, maturity, good decision making, all those little qualities that contribute to you being safe behind the wheel, and when they were legally able to drive on their own (usually around 18 in Ontario), did they go out and buy a slower, cheaper car? No, they trusted their kids with the vehicles they had, hoping that what they'd passed on to their kids had stuck. My friends are still alive, although there was a fender bender or two. Must have been the parents fault, though...
So anyway guys. If your 16-18 and drive a sports car. GL and Drive safe.Agreed.

[happy and angry]

the only reason that age comes into play is because of lack of driving experience. This person was really not displaying a whole lot of adult behavior. Yes he is old enough to vote, die for his country, etc...but taking ur dad's car, bragging it is yours, then driving it recklessly while endangering other people, this is not exactly what i would call responsible behavior. I am not blaming anyone but the driver here, but I think that this situation couldve been avoided (or at least reduced the risk) had the parents recognized that their child was irresponsible and not given him the keys to a 300+ HP car.Agreed. The parents could definitely reduced the risk of something like this happening. But. The story does indicate one way or the other that the parents had any reason to suspect he WAS irresponsible, lying about the car, dicking around on an airstrip, etc. Kids keep a lot of things from their parents (and that's not the parents fault either!).

[wolverine_man]

Ahh... but there is the fun concept of joint and several liability. You and your parents could both, at the same time, be completely liable for something you did and they enabled (obviously under only very specific circumstances).

But, no, get a real lawyer if you get into trouble. I am still in law school.

Nealric good luck in law school! I hope you decide to take the bar in Nevada or someplace warm. I'm stuck in Michigan with 8 inches of fresh snow and no time to ski.

[Sierra117]

Woah woah woah woah waoh...this is not my Batman glass.

But, seriously, from what I read:

Are we positing the argument that the parents are to blame for the simple fact that they owned a 500hp M5, it is their fault? Because their son was an irresponsible little snot nosed shit who thinks he has big balls because daddy owns a fast car, its their fault? Jesus christ, what the hell is wrong with society?

[clos561]

their responsible for not knowing their son is a little snot...doesnt really matter anymore the kids dead and they proly had good insurance so they got a new car already, maybe a upgrade (guitar)

[JamJam]

the only reason that age comes into play is because of lack of driving experience. This person was really not displaying a whole lot of adult behavior. Yes he is old enough to vote, die for his country, etc...but taking ur dad's car, bragging it is yours, then driving it recklessly while endangering other people, this is not exactly what i would call responsible behavior. I am not blaming anyone but the driver here, but I think that this situation couldve been avoided (or at least reduced the risk) had the parents recognized that their child was irresponsible and not given him the keys to a 300+ HP car.


No one here knows this ADULTS driving experience, ability or what exactly happened at the end of that runway.

*edit: Like your wheels, the all black setup is sexy as hell

[happy and angry]

their responsible for not knowing their son is a little snot...doesnt really matter anymore the kids dead and they proly had good insurance so they got a new car already, maybe a upgradeThis is the most insensitive, judgmental, misinformed thing I think I have ever heard.

What a dumb post.

[SuperStretch18]

No one here knows this ADULTS driving experience, ability or what exactly happened at the end of that runway.

High speed runs on an airport runway in your parent's car is inherently irresponsible behavior. IIRC, the thread on the BMW forum said that it was his first experience with a manual car.

I agree that he was an adult and is responsible for his actions. His parents handed him the weapon, but he fired it.

[jbiird317]

No one here knows this ADULTS driving experience, ability or what exactly happened at the end of that runway.

*edit: Like your wheels, the all black setup is sexy as hell

this is true. i grew up in nazareth, PA which is home to the andretti family. My sister is actually friends with the youngest andretti, Marco. He has been racing his whole life and is undoubtedly a great driver. However, he is 19 years old, only has 3 years experience driving on public roads (with other ppl making dumb decisions all around you), so even he is not invincible to tragedy like this. While he may be (and so could this kid) a skilled driver at high speeds, there are a lot of things on the road that could make those skills completely worthless. Now I know that this occured on a runway and we have no clue what led to the accident, but the point remains, the parents gave their kid keys to an extremely powerful car and turned him loose with only 2 years experience on the roads. im not sure how some people arent seeing the inherent risk here......

[JamJam]

High speed runs on an airport runway in your parent's car is inherently irresponsible behavior. IIRC, the thread on the BMW forum said that it was his first experience with a manual car.

I agree that he was an adult and is responsible for his actions. His parents handed him the weapon, but he fired it.

I agree it was irresponsible, but atleast he did it on a closed airport runway and not public streets. In the end it means nothing, they are dead by the hands of a 18 year adult that made the wrong decision.

[jbiird317]

I agree that he was an adult and is responsible for his actions. His parents handed him the weapon, but he fired it.

VERY well put, i think that places blame on each party

[JamJam]

this is true. i grew up in nazareth, PA which is home to the andretti family. My sister is actually friends with the youngest andretti, Marco. He has been racing his whole life and is undoubtedly a great driver. However, he is 19 years old, only has 3 years experience driving on public roads (with other ppl making dumb decisions all around you), so even he is not invincible to tragedy like this. While he may be (and so could this kid) a skilled driver at high speeds, there are a lot of things on the road that could make those skills completely worthless. Now I know that this occured on a runway and we have no clue what led to the accident, but the point remains, the parents gave their kid keys to an extremely powerful car and turned him loose with only 2 years experience on the roads. im not sure how some people arent seeing the inherent risk here......

Well put! I agree and as a parent I would not have given my child the keys to a car like this.

At what age do you start taking responsibility of your actions? At what age do you become a Adult? Everyone is different but I think we like to consider 18 year old ADULTS that screw up teenagers with behavioral issues. 18 year old ADULTS that don't screw up and run proactive lives are young ADULTS.

What defines a legal adult I think is the ability to legally work, participate in contracts, vote, marry, give sexual consent, and join the military which is the age of 18.

[Bravnik]

Well I lied.

What you guys are failing to understand or just refuse to accept is that the parents handed an 18 year old a set of keys to a 500HP car to take out for the night. Sure this guy was 18 and can vote, die for his country, yadda yadda yadda. It does not change the FACT that it was irresponsible to give an 18 year old keys to a 500hp car.

I just can't understand why this does not make sense? Had they said, no take the minivan. He would be alive today. The parents have to hold some responsibility in this. It was their action by giving him the keys that directly resulted in his death.

For all we know, he begged till he was blue in the face and the parents caved. For all we know, he promised that he would be a good boy and NEVER abuse his parents car. But that does not change the fact that the parents should have never given such a young person the keys to a 500HP 12 Second Car to go joy riding with his buddies. I'm sure they meant no harm, but it was just as big of a mistake as it was to take that car to the airport and kill 5 people.

So my point is and has been all along that, yes, he was 18 years old and a YOUNG adult. However, his parents gave him the keys. They hold some responsibility in how the night ended.

The comment I made earlier about under 25 had nothing to do with me thinking young people are idiots and what they say I don't respect. It was directly related to the fact that a person under 25 does not have children (close to driving age at least).

So when you feel the need to defend the parents. Just ask yourself this question. If it was your kid and you handed the them the keys to a 500HP car to go out in and they killed themselves and/or others, would you feel the slightest bit responsible? Or do you honestly think you would just go "Don't blame me, he made a stupid mistake".

[SuperStretch18]

Oh, they should feel terrible! Their hands aren't completely clean either! However, there needs to be some accountability when you become an adult (that also has to do with how he was raised, but that is another matter altogether).

Put it this way; if he had lived and his friends had died, he would be 100% accountable. The parents shouldn't accept all of the blame by default because the person responsible died and we need someone to point the finger at.

[07CBMS3]

Now I know that this occured on a runway and we have no clue what led to the accident, but the point remains, the parents gave their kid keys to an extremely powerful car and turned him loose with only 2 years experience on the roads. im not sure how some people arent seeing the inherent risk here......

Agreed, even if the parents aren't responsible, they should feel a lack of commom sense. One part of the original posters reference article that caught my attention is as follows:

Experience Counts
Apparently AmericanM5 had not been entirely truthful in his postings. The M5 belonged not to him, but instead to his father.

When members of the M5board forum had made this suggestion online, AmericanM5 bristled: "It's mine, buddy. I just traded in my 335i and paid the difference."

Another member suggested that AmericanM5's lack of knowledge about the BMW M5's transmission could be easily explained: "Maybe your two years' driving experience in your whole life is the problem."

AmericanM5 responded: "That could be a good assumption but the fact I never drive a manual car before may be true, but I've been driving for a lot longer than two years, buddy."

Reports indicate that Ammirato had received four traffic citations in the last two years.

Assuming the driver still lived with his parents and not knowing the extent of the traffic violations, speeding vs. illegel u-turns, this should have "red flagged" the parents their child needed a little more behind-the-wheel training before trusting him on public roads with a carload of passengers. The make/model of the vehicle doesn't seem to be the problem, it's just accentuated it. Overall a very sad situation that has left behind many grieving family members.

[CB08MS3]

Nice username (bird) ^ LOL

[Sierra117]

Well I lied.

What you guys are failing to understand or just refuse to accept is that the parents handed an 18 year old a set of keys to a 500HP car to take out for the night. Sure this guy was 18 and can vote, die for his country, yadda yadda yadda. It does not change the FACT that it was irresponsible to give an 18 year old keys to a 500hp car.

I haven't seen every little facet of the case, but are we sure the dad just tossed the keys to the car to his kid and said here, go have fun? In that case, while it was irresponsible of the dad to do so, it still places blame on the driver for going out and doing this. However, if he took the keys and the parents didn't know, then I would absolve them of all responsibility in the accident. If you are going to blame the dad for owning an M5 (assuming the kid took the car sans permission), then you might as well blame BMW for making the M5, and the sales person for selling the M5.

[JamJam]

I misunderstood your comment and I did not want to offend you or anyone else that is why at the end of my post I apologized if I had taken your post the wrong way.

I agree with you that the parents made a mistake. You mentioned they would still be alive if they were driving a minivan that night. There are to many variables that could have happened that night. Maybe they were going out to the runway regardless of the car. Maybe they do this weekly with all their friends and they didnt know someone had dug a big hole in the runway that week. Yes that car is a monster and pretty much a street legal RACE car. It was a tool used in the accident but like I have said before, this story would not be news worthy if it was a civic or a minivan as you put it. They would have been just as dead if they did the same thing in any vehicle. Again we dont know if this is a weekly event these Irresponsible Adults do!

I have remorse for all parents in this situation. I would not blame them for the actions of the Young Adults (there children) that transpired that night. We can go round and round about this M5. My whole arguement on that is the fact that we have no history on this subject. We dont know what these young Adults do for fun, which may have been weekly speed runs with one of the other parents Audi RS8, 300hp modified civic, or the emphamous minivan. They are all machines and when used improperly can kill. He just happened to be in a M5 and thats the only reason this story is news worthy. Dont get me wrong 5 kids dying is NEWS worthy, we as car inthusiasts would not have a post going on 8 pages about 5 kids dying in a minivan! Would the parents have been irresponsible if this happened with the family minivan? That very well could have been the case and I am sure we can pull up the statistics and see that more children die in minivans than M5's. I know thats a little unfair because minivans far outnumber M5's on public streets! Whats the difference though. I am saying its not the car that killed thes young Adults its the decision to drive like an idiot. Why cant everyone see this. They could have been in a minivan doing 110 on that runway. It doesnt matter they are just as dead. As easy as it is to build 12 and 11 second honda civic we should be talking about all the 18 year olds that died this year street racing. There is usually no mention of irresposible parents in these stories just street racer taking out family in minivan..

Just to many variables to keep talking about the M5. It could have happened regardless and we cant say it would not have happened that night with another vehicle.

[Bravnik]

I haven't seen every little facet of the case, but are we sure the dad just tossed the keys to the car to his kid and said here, go have fun? In that case, while it was irresponsible of the dad to do so, it still places blame on the driver for going out and doing this. However, if he took the keys and the parents didn't know, then I would absolve them of all responsibility in the accident. If you are going to blame the dad for owning an M5 (assuming the kid took the car sans permission), then you might as well blame BMW for making the M5, and the sales person for selling the M5.

We are making an assumption that the parents loaned him the car. If so, then they are responsible for their actions.

Now if he took the car without permission he is totally 100% responsible.

I would never blame the car, the gun, the drugs or any other inanimate object for someones death as the object itself couldn't kill anyone unless someone used it.

Nothing in life happens without cause and effect. Multiple things merge into a final result. In this case the 18 year old is to blame for doing something stupid that resulted in peoples death. The parents are to blame if they actually let their 18 year old take out a 500hp car with their blessings and as much as I hate to say it, the other kids in the car are also to blame for not stopping their friend from doing something stupid or at the very least, getting out of the car.

Had just one of those things not happened we would not be discussing this at all today. Everyone involved has to accept their part in this and is responsible for their actions. It does not matter if they are 16 or 60, kids or parents.

[HIGHBRED8]

i know when im out or go to an accident that it usually does not involve a 100k+ 500hp lux car. usually some little age appropriate compact. pretty much any car is capable of speeds well in excess of 100mph. this could of and probably would of happened had he been given a 97 civic. theres tons of them out there throwing a muffler and a filter on some pos and all of a sudden they have a race car. its easy to blame the parents when they handed their son the keys to a type of machine most of us can only hope to valet park one day, but truth of the matter is this shit happens everyday in economy cars. are we blaming those parents? no, then its just a stupid kid, but through a bmw in the mix and something changes? please, bottom line, not good idea to give an inexperienced drive the keys to such a car but we dont know this guy he could of been an excellent kid with awsome grades etc giving his family no reason not to trust him. he made a big mistake that cost 5 people their life and now no matter who we blame it doesnt matter because they are all gone, and us deciding who to blame doesnt change a damn thing. we all gave our opinion and no one is gonna say something so inspiring that will make everyone else change their mind, so lets just say its a sad story that happens all the time and move on. this thread is gonna end up longer then the damn "which ems is better posts" posts

[Sierra117]

So can we agree that if he took the car without his parent's permission, we can absolve them of the blame?

[Sacrilicious]

So can we agree that if he took the car without his parent's permission, we can absolve them of the blame?

oh ya, i don't think ANYONE was arguing against that.

[bioMed07]

lol owned.

[nealric]

So can we agree that if he took the car without his parent's permission, we can absolve them of the blame?

Just had to but in again. In some cases, you (or at least your insurance company through you) are liable for accidents your kids get into when they take your car unless you are willing to press criminal charged for theft against them. You don't have to directly give em the keys or tell them they can use the car to have legally given permission.


Nealric good luck in law school! I hope you decide to take the bar in Nevada or someplace warm. I'm stuck in Michigan with 8 inches of fresh snow and no time to ski.

Thanks for the + vibes.

I will probably end up in TX or CO after school, but anything could happen.

[n|njutsu55]

I think these arguments are going to drag on and on and are kind of useless. To much of this going back and forth is based on assumptions. No one here knows all the facts. This kid came from a family that obviously had money. Maybe his parents worked all the time and were rarely home so he would just take his parents cars without there knowledge any time he felt like it. I grew up with plenty of kids like that.......from taking (pretty much stealing) the keys to a grand am, h1 hummer, or porsche.

A lot of good points have been made here and there but none of us know what really happened. We just know the end results of some bad decisions. For the most part those under 20 do tend to make more mistakes (with driving) but there are definitely exceptions. I was a 16 year old freshman in college and since then I've been threw 6 cars. 7 years later I still have a perfect driving record. I do believe that the parents could have taken more steps to insure there child's safety but as it was said before, theres no reason to believe they didn't think their son was responsible at 18. I can't really say that I would blame the parents even if they gave him the keys.....not at 18 years old. If he was a minor I would agree that they were partially to blame. By the time I was 18 I was making some pretty tough decisions. Not driving like a jackass was pretty self explanatory to me. I Know plenty of adults who are horrible drivers.

[Ryz]

Got to give the poor kid the credit that he was responsible enough to go to a private airstrip to push the limits...

He was tresspassing on a private airstrip. If an airplane would have been coming there there could have been more deaths.

[Ryz]

Finally someone with a brain who can agree here.


So only those that agree with you are intelligent?

[maestro]

People won't unanimously agree on a point in most matters, including people making stupid decisions that cause their own death and/or that of others. Different view points.

I believe the driver is at fault completely. He made a poor decision and should know the consequences. Junior High physics teaches us about velocity and matter as well as their potential. He wanted to be a "big boy" and have some fun, show off or whatever while ignoring or dismissing potential consequences. In the process he killed other people as well. Heck, stories like this are in the news constantly.

Parents should not be held responsible for an 18 yr olds decision making skills. If they screwed up in raising him and not teaching him proper responsibility, judgement et al, it is still an adults place to make needed changes. Ignorance of the law is no excuse, the kid broke the law, the parents did not. It is not illegal to over indulge ones children or teach them that money buys cool stuff and happiness or that all the shallow kids will think your cool if you act like you are the center of everyones universe.

Ignorance of responsibility and good judgement are no excuse either. If the parents knew their son was a moron and would speed around like a raped ape then perhaps they should bear some legal consequence, otherwise they just get the emotional guilt.
In the end the parents get to live with the repercussions of this tragedy and hopefuly learn from it.

I feel bad for the families, driver and his victims but at the same time F' that stupid idiot. I'm sorry he can't stand trial for murder.
This reminds me of the girl that took daddies Porsche, clipped a car at well over the speed limit and slammed into a toll booth, ripping her head off in the process. She was under age though. I saved the pics and showed my daughter the chunks of scalp hanging from the top of the car to remind her why we drive responsibly.

[nealric]

He was tresspassing on a private airstrip. If an airplane would have been coming there there could have been more deaths.

I think his parents owned property at a fly-in community- if so he was not trespassing.

Also, having flown light planes, I can say it is very unlikely there would have been an issue with the car colliding with a plane. A cessna is not like a 747, it can abort a landing with almost no notice.

[RelliMS3]

It seems like people are just using this kids death for a reason to argue.

[Ryz]

I think his parents owned property at a fly-in community- if so he was not trespassing.

Also, having flown light planes, I can say it is very unlikely there would have been an issue with the car colliding with a plane. A cessna is not like a 747, it can abort a landing with almost no notice.

His parents did not own property at the community. He lived about 12 miles away. Considering that Travolta lands his 707 there I think that planes a bit bigger than cessnas are on the tarmac. Plus if a small plane is coming in, suddenly there is a car coming at 160 mph, I doubt that the pilot could react.

[jbiird317]

oy i thought this thread was dead

[Ryz]

You say that a lot.

[jbiird317]

You say that a lot.

http://yankeeschick.mlblogs.com/yankees_fans_are_the_true/images/broken_record.jpg
me^^^

[boost_me]

...wow terrible loss

[jville]

Thats a terrible thing. Should have had more respect for the car, people, and places he was dealing with. 18, 25, 35, i don;t care how old someone is. A BAD DECISION IS A BAD DECISION. My dad let me drive his camaro when i first got my liscense. I babied thehell out of it. Just the way i was raised i guess. Spoiled rich kids have no regaurd.