new product development inquiry

[builthatch]

As a branch off from this thread- http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?p=3641231#post3641231 , i'd like to see what kind of response there would be to an MS3 specific spring kit from Eibach. I am a manufacturer's rep for Eibach in the Northeast and our firm has very close ties to the people who make things happen at Eibach.

I've discussed this with R&D and am presenting the idea to the right people. Would everyone be interested in this product? It's my guess that it'd be a Pro-kit, offering similar stance to this but with significantly increased performance vs. stock.
(standard 3 pro-kit on my ms3) -
http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w152/builthatch/IMG_0547.jpg

A major sticking point is finding someone close to Corona to work with Eibach on R&D. They need a car to test and I'm hoping if we start to see a green light on this, someone from the forum would be able to help in this department.

[numbnuts22715]

What kind of spring rates percentage over stock are you guys thinking? Anything pretty similar to anything else out right now, or what?
I want my suspension to be pretty stiff, but I dont wanna necessarily go full coilover.

I think thered be a lot of interest, a lot of people want more options when it comes to springs and whatnot.

[Haltech]

As a branch off from this thread- http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?p=3641231#post3641231 , i'd like to see what kind of response there would be to an MS3 specific spring kit from Eibach. I am a manufacturer's rep for Eibach in the Northeast and our firm has very close ties to the people who make things happen at Eibach.

I've discussed this with R&D and am presenting the idea to the right people. Would everyone be interested in this product? It's my guess that it'd be a Pro-kit, offering similar stance to this but with significantly increased performance vs. stock.
(standard 3 pro-kit on my ms3) -
http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w152/builthatch/IMG_0547.jpg

A major sticking point is finding someone close to Corona to work with Eibach on R&D. They need a car to test and I'm hoping if we start to see a green light on this, someone from the forum would be able to help in this department.

Corona is only 35 minutes away from me and im available during the day. Hook it up.

[tsunami]

eibach is a great company with great products you guys won't be dissapointed... i run the prokit on my reg 3 and love it still 3 years later

[clos561]

sounds good, haltech. go get some free springs already to kick start this

[AutoXRacer]

I was thining to go with the Mazdaspeed Springs with are 30% stiffer than stock and lowers the stance by 15mm (0.6 inches).

What are your eibachs going to do?

[builthatch]

Corona is only 35 minutes away from me and im available during the day. Hook it up.

haha, duly noted. thanks for the offer and this will definately be presented if talks progress past the initial presentation.



I was thining to go with the Mazdaspeed Springs with are 30% stiffer than stock and lowers the stance by 15mm (0.6 inches).

What are your eibachs going to do?

i have to ask the question- are you sure the mazdaspeed springs are 30% stiffer than the stock mazdaspeed3 springs? i have been under the impression since initially reading the mazdaspeed literature and checking out their booth at SEMA that the springs are 30% stiffer than the non-MS versions...

As far as rates, IF they were to go this route, i know eibach would issue a kit with somewhat higher rates than the regular 3 Pro-Kit, which according to my info are 160lbs front and 171lbs rear (the Pro-Kit for the reg 3 is very similar to the stock MS3 springs, but an inch or so lower). I'd push for a lowering amount in the 1" range, possibly 1.2. I believe mine lowered the car about 1.25" and according to all feedback it looks fabulous. part of that might very well be due to the heavier weight of the turbo front end and the slightly softer than stock rate (160 vs 180). whatever the lowering would be, it would not be too aggressive to keep with the rest of the Pro-Kit philosophy, which is moderate rates, moderate lowering in an effort to avoid rough rides, mismatched damping and excessive camber wear.

keep in mind this is a feedback thread and i've solely presented the idea. i have no semblance of an answer from them yet other than the R&D contact mentioned that it would be worth bringing in front of the people who i presented this idea to...

[JamJam]

Sign me up! Had the Prokit on a supra and loved the ride.

[SuperStretch18]

**Threadjack Alert**
Builthatch, Eibach needs to make a kit for the CX-7 too! They actually had a prototype produced for one of the modded CX-7's that mazda had assembled, but they don't offer it for sale. PM me if you ever get any additional information on that.

/threadjack
Sorry guys, you may commence your MS3 conversation...

[Haltech]

Built, keep me in the loop so i can help out. Thanks bro.

[clos561]

1 inch drop is nice, i think thats the biggest drop so far

[Moonpie.Express]

1 inch drop is nice, i think thats the biggest drop so far

I think Cobb Springs are 1inch drop also.
Eibach has a long history of quality products. I remember a time if you wanted performance springs, you bought Eibach. Thats because, we did not have the amount of aftermarket companys we have today.

[builthatch]

I think Cobb Springs are 1inch drop also.
Eibach has a long history of quality products. I remember a time if you wanted performance springs, you bought Eibach. Thats because, we did not have the amount of aftermarket companys we have today.

Eibach still is the premier spring manufacturer in the world. While other companies have definitely made strides in consistency, almost all race cars everywhere are using Eibach springs, either in the valvetrain or in the suspension, and this is true whether or not they have the Eibach name on them or not because Eibach does alot of private labeling.

anyway- here is the latest. it's so/so news.

Eibach has reported a few things to me. the first is that they are indeed responsible for the Mazdaspeed option springs for the 3, but this was pretty obvious. They didn't do an option spring for the MS3 because Mazda was pretty insistent that it was ideal from the factory. You and i both know that even the nice handling box stock ms3 could stand for some improvement in the suspension department, if anything, at the bare minimum it could use a 1-1.2" drop on all four corners.

the bottom line is eibach will only produce the kit under the eibach name if 100 kits can be sold. While on paper that sounds like cake considering how many of the people who have these cars would be willing to buy an ideal kit, it is alot harder than is sounds because of my limited territory responsibility as an outside rep. There are other options in which this type of kit could be developed by eibach but i can't divulge that quite yet. It would be a private label situation but that's all i can say for now.

I can tell you that i will have to contact a few of your favorite product resellers to see if they can help this situation.

if anyone would really be interested in this, please say so here. I might have to assemble a group buy in some capacity..........

[Eddie Wetzel]

I had the Pro-Kit on my 01 Stratus R/T (show car) and I loved them. Had them for 3 or 4 years. Best money I spent on ANY mod I had, and I had a TON!

Hatch, does Eibach mean sell 100 just through you, or overall? There will be NO PROBLEM AT ALL selling 100 kits. That is cake. Shit, I'd buy all 100 and sell them on ebay! There must be another hold up from Eibach, unless they meant just 100 through you......... As you said Eibach is the premiere spring company in the world, with one of the longest, most reliable and respected histories for making springs. Eibach = quality and performance. There should be no problem selling 100.

If it takes a long time, and I have my MS3 by then, i would be more than happy to rep for Eibach as a sponsored car at shows on the East Coast.

Good luck! Keep everyone posted!

[oskinosmee]

if anyone would really be interested in this, please say so here. I might have to assemble a group buy in some capacity..........

How much for a kit if its a nice price id buy one?

[clos561]

+1 for the price...let us know so we can start getting money together. i was going to get a qtp cutout but i want to get suspension instead

[channah]

hey builthatch i love in corona, like 5 mins from the warehouse. i drive by it everyday, id be happy to use my car

[channah]

live*

[builthatch]

hey builthatch i love in corona, like 5 mins from the warehouse. i drive by it everyday, id be happy to use my car

thanks for the info. i will keep this in mind along with what haltech has said. i really appreciate the positive offers and feedback.

Eibach has reported to me that this is being thrown about very seriously and very well might get the stamp of approval, even before any outside commitment is made for purchase.

so the latest is- i have been approaching the resellers you guys know and love about carrying this product via a fabulous warehouse distributor of Eibach's. Everyone at this point has given me positive feedback regarding the potential of a part number like this and is very interested in what develops.

i just hope the community is an anxious about an ideal spring kit upgrade like i am haha...

stay tuned.

[channah]

definantly man just let me know. im excited for this and hope it goes through

[builthatch]

ok, here is an update. i talked to phong at eibach R&D today and he confirmed they are working on something. i have contacted the two members in this thread who mentioned they live near corona would be willing to help on the R&D end.

stay tuned!

[Dozed]

This can probably be marketed towards the Mazda3 owners as well. I'm sure there are a few out there that would want to opt for a slightly stiffer MS3 Pro-kit versus the normal 3 Pro-kit.

100 should be no problem.

[Breezy]

Eibach has reported a few things to me. the first is that they are indeed responsible for the Mazdaspeed option springs for the 3, but this was pretty obvious. They didn't do an option spring for the MS3 because Mazda was pretty insistent that it was ideal from the factory. You and i both know that even the nice handling box stock ms3 could stand for some improvement in the suspension department, if anything, at the bare minimum it could use a 1-1.2" drop on all four corners.

From my viewpoint, with a background in racing for 20 plus years, the stock MazdaSpeed spring setup is already pretty optimal. I understand everyone wants to lower their cars, but frankly, I bottom mine now .. with a lowered car you will be either A. driving slow, or B. bottoming out a lot more.

Strickly from a performance standpoint (not looks) I would spend some time valving the shocks with more progressive bump valving to eliminate bottoming, and less rebound in the front to further minimize wheelspin. That kind of stuff probably sounds pretty boring though ..

[AutoXRacer]

From my viewpoint, with a background in racing for 20 plus years, the stock MazdaSpeed spring setup is already pretty optimal. I understand everyone wants to lower their cars, but frankly, I bottom mine now .. with a lowered car you will be either A. driving slow, or B. bottoming out a lot more.

Strickly from a performance standpoint (not looks) I would spend some time valving the shocks with more progressive bump valving to eliminate bottoming, and less rebound in the front to further minimize wheelspin. That kind of stuff probably sounds pretty boring though ..

I was hoping a higher spring rate would help wheel spin by reduced the weight transfer to the rear under hard accelerations.

[dparm1984]

I'd like to see either an adjustable coilover setup, or some sort of mild upgrade that just drops it a tiny bit and offers a bit more firmness than stock. Something along the lines of the Mazdaspeed stuff but less expensive. The adjustable would be killer for guys who want to track the car AND drive it every day.

[channah]

i live in corona and called them today about offering my car for R&D but no one got back to me :-(

[builthatch]

From my viewpoint, with a background in racing for 20 plus years, the stock MazdaSpeed spring setup is already pretty optimal. I understand everyone wants to lower their cars, but frankly, I bottom mine now .. with a lowered car you will be either A. driving slow, or B. bottoming out a lot more.

Strickly from a performance standpoint (not looks) I would spend some time valving the shocks with more progressive bump valving to eliminate bottoming, and less rebound in the front to further minimize wheelspin. That kind of stuff probably sounds pretty boring though ..

eibach does track testing on all enthusiast vehicle releases (evo, sti, this car, etc). if it (the pro-kit) doesn't improve overall performance vs. stock, it won't be released. that is one reason the release of this will take some time once things move along.

keep in mind a lowered vehicle effects so many things, including many times an increase in gas mileage, decrease in braking distances, etc etc. the enhanced appearance goes without saying. i feel that the pro-kit i have installed on my ms3 makes the car look absolutely ideal, as does anyone else who has seen it, esp side by side vs. a stock ms3.

if you are bottoming out the suspension now on a regular basis (which is...odd), then a dialed increase in rate with a slight lowering using a progressive spring should not be any worse. you say "background in racing of 20 years plus". i'd say the average driver of these cars is driving the way you are when you are bottoming out your suspension, <1% of the time out of their entire time in the car, if that. you are not the norm whatsoever. you are a much much more aggressive driver than most and probably ARE in need of an increase in rate AND some sort of aggressive valving change in concert. Mazda had to compromise to cater to the broad cross-section of the niche (there's an oxymoron!) of people who would buy the car by making it lower than a stock 3, with a slight increase in rate and associated valving adjustments to firm up the ride and up the performance, but not make people complain about it being too low and/or too stiff. they figured people who think it's too high, as usual, can lower the car if the choose, but if it's too low out of the box and people are hitting things and feeling like they are in an STi, it, in there eyes, would be one more reason why people would choose another car in this range instead of this one.

[chronus377]

i have to ask the question- are you sure the mazdaspeed springs are 30% stiffer than the stock mazdaspeed3 springs? i have been under the impression since initially reading the mazdaspeed literature and checking out their booth at SEMA that the springs are 30% stiffer than the non-MS versions...



Not to change subjects, but is this true?

[builthatch]

Not to change subjects, but is this true? the mazdaspeed option springs are indeed 30% stiffer than the OE mazda 3 springs. eibach developed these...

the mazdaspeed option springs are SOFTER than the OE MS3 springs!

[haberdashery]

i wont ever buy any springs but eibachs, but i want a sportline kit for the ms3 (sad2)

do you think the sportline kit for the regular 3 would be risky on the ms3?

[Breezy]

if you are bottoming out the suspension now on a regular basis (which is...odd), then a dialed increase in rate with a slight lowering using a progressive spring should not be any worse. you say "background in racing of 20 years plus". i'd say the average driver of these cars is driving the way you are when you are bottoming out your suspension, <1% of the time out of their entire time in the car, if that. you are not the norm whatsoever. you are a much much more aggressive driver than most and probably ARE in need of an increase in rate AND some sort of aggressive valving change in concert.

Yes, sometimes I'm a bit of an aggressive driver, but that's why I bought the Speed. Want to bottom your car? Put 4 people in it .. or drive on bumpy streets, which we have plenty of. If I'm by myself on smooth roads, no problem, even though that's when I'm most aggressive. So, two ways to fix it .. though springs a t it, and progressive springs are one choice as long as you don't go soft, but instead go stiffer as the load increases. But that has some downsides such as wheel patter, wheelspin, and reduced braking especially on bumpy surfaces. Shocks offer up a better option because you can adjust stiffness in accordance to the suspension speed rather than ride height. That was my point. If you truly want better street performance lowering won't give it to you .. though as you mention it looks cool .. no doubt about that. The increased gas mileage from lowering was cute (jerkit)

If anyone out there really wants to improve handling, check out a performance alignment first. But that won't look cool.

[mxchaos6]

I would be on for a set as well, I have them on my current car (94 Mazda mx6 with eibach pro springs and tokico illumina struts) and the ride is great, so I'm very interested in these for my new car ( ordered mid febuary 2008.5 mazdaspeed 3)

[SMITTNME]

I may be interested too. I've always heard great things about Eibach springs...any pricing info yet?

[Aadden]

I'm very interested as well. Please keep us posted.

[builthatch]

The increased gas mileage from lowering was cute (jerkit)


it's true. eibach did a series of scientific tests on an '08 accord and a new f-150, both lowered vs. stock height, no other mods. the test was conducted by a world-renowned firm who specializes in these types of studies. they found that lowered vs. not produced an average gain of 3 mpg, mainly from reduced drag. This study was done to run an ad in the major automotive publications, NOT enthusiast publications, in an effort to show the layman how lowering a car does more than improve looks.

but, to reply to the rest of your post, like i mentioned before, if performance is hampered during their track testing, and nothing can be done with lowering springs to improve the overall driving experience, they will not be issued as a stand-alone kit. for enthusiast vehicles this is standard procedure, so, let's just stay tuned and see what happens before you issue any more final decisions on what works and what doesn't with this car.

[TurboWagon]

the mazdaspeed option springs are indeed 30% stiffer than the OE mazda 3 springs. eibach developed these...

the mazdaspeed option springs are SOFTER than the OE MS3 springs!

Can SwampAss or anyone with the MS Lowering Springs please vouch for this. I am thinking about pulling the trigger on these but if they are softer than our stock springs then I dont think I will bother.

Keep us postedd on Eibach though. I have personally never owned anything but Bilstein but I am considering this given all the good reviews.

[builthatch]

Can SwampAss or anyone with the MS Lowering Springs please vouch for this. I am thinking about pulling the trigger on these but if they are softer than our stock springs then I dont think I will bother.

Keep us postedd on Eibach though. I have personally never owned anything but Bilstein but I am considering this given all the good reviews.

the rate difference between the option springs and the OE ms3 springs is very slight, but the fronts are softer on the option springs because they were actually meant for the regular 3. i will see if i can find out add'l info from eibach because they developed these for mazdaspeed! I am running the pro-kit from eibach on my car and i can tell that they are a hair softer than my stock ms3 springs, so i will further verify that info about the mazdaspeed option units.

[Breezy]

it's true. eibach did a series of scientific tests on an '08 accord and a new f-150, both lowered vs. stock height, no other mods. the test was conducted by a world-renowned firm who specializes in these types of studies. they found that lowered vs. not produced an average gain of 3 mpg, mainly from reduced drag.

Funny .. I have an F-150 and the 2wd vs 4 wd mileage is only 1 mpg different, despite the massive ride height difference beteen the two, even though the 4wd has to lung around the extra weight and the drive resistance of the transfer case. I would so love to get 3 mpg more out of my F-150. How low did you go and do you have some real data on this?

[builthatch]

Funny .. I have an F-150 and the 2wd vs 4 wd mileage is only 1 mpg different, despite the massive ride height difference beteen the two, even though the 4wd has to lung around the extra weight and the drive resistance of the transfer case. I would so love to get 3 mpg more out of my F-150. How low did you go and do you have some real data on this?

PM me your email address. I can send the car data over; the truck tests were completed but i have to ring some bells to get that documentation...

[AutoXRacer]

the rate difference between the option springs and the OE ms3 springs is very slight, but the fronts are softer on the option springs because they were actually meant for the regular 3. i will see if i can find out add'l info from eibach because they developed these for mazdaspeed! I am running the pro-kit from eibach on my car and i can tell that they are a hair softer than my stock ms3 springs, so i will further verify that info about the mazdaspeed option units.


Are you sure about this? According to my Mazdaspeed Accessory catalog, there are two Mazdaspeed Spring Kits, one for the Mazda3 and another for Mazdaspeed 3; each with different part numbers.

OK, here they are:

Mazda3:
-Coilover Kit = RAMS-8M-L05
-Spring Kit = GRMS-8M-L05

Mazdaspeed 3:
-Coilover Kit = RAMS-8M-L10
-Spring Kit = GRMS-8M-L25

According the Mazdaspeed, the MS3 kit is 30% stiffer than the stock MS3 springs. I've read a few threads confirming this.

[builthatch]

Are you sure about this? According to my Mazdaspeed Accessory catalog, there are two Mazdaspeed Spring Kits, one for the Mazda3 and another for Mazdaspeed 3; each with different part numbers.

According the Mazdaspeed, the MS3 kit is 30% stiffer than the stock MS3 springs. I've read a few threads confirming this.
I don't have access to my catalog at this time, but as soon as I do, I'll post the different part numbers.

i've never seen an mazdaspeed option upgrade for the ms3, only a mazdaspeed option upgrade for the regular three, '04-'08, which is a part number GRMS-8M-L05. the specs on this part number are about the same as the Eibach pro-kit for the regular 3; the front springs are a hair taller on the mazdaspeed option springs, but the rates are similar, about 160lbs front and 170lbs rear. this is somewhat softer than the stock mazdaspeed3 springs, make no mistake about that! eibach developed this for mazdaspeed to be sold in their accessories catalog and applied only to the standard 3. eibach did not ever develop anything for mazdaspeed for an upgrade to the ms3 and eibach has indicated to me that mazdaspeed had no interest in offering such a thing because they felt the out of the box mazdaspeed3 had the optimum suspension setup.

also, in further response to the info we and breezy discussed, if you go to www.eibach.com, and click on the section on the upper right, it details the info about the Accord testing. the f-150 testing info is completed and at the factory, but i can't get it until their marketing director Oliver comes back to the office as he's been out...

[AutoXRacer]

So what is the GRMS-8M-L25 part number for then?

See for yourself...two different spring and coilover sets for the Mazdaspeed3 and the regular Mazda3; page 17 (MS3) and 18 (MZ3).

Its the same for the exhausts and intakes...there are two different parts numbers depending on application.

Am I reading this wrong or what? (huh)

Here is the catalog: http://www.mazdamotorsports.com/pdfs/msacc.pdf

[builthatch]

So what is the GRMS-8M-L25 part number for then?



Am I reading this wrong or what? (huh)


nah, you are right. that is indeed what's available!

i can't be sure re: details on the L25 kit..the info about mazda claiming ideal setup out of the box for the ms3 came straight from eibach's mouth to my ears, but evidently that is not accurate.

what i find strange is mazdaspeed would contract eibach to handle the regular 3 option springs, but not the ms3 part number....maybe eibach did develop these too and my contacts were mistaken. whatever is going on, it's even confusing me at this point. i will have to address this with the factory in some way to keep the confusion down.

i'll dig more to find out.

regardless of that, the eibach pro-kit that is potentially enroute specifically for the ms3 would be much cheaper in cost vs. a mazdaspeed option and would match or exceed the quality of anything else in the marketplace. Eibach offers nothing but extremely high quality products, so that has to be kept in mind during this whole process...

i did some digging on the webz and i've come to find out the rates on this part number with the "L25" suffix are as follows-

Evidently they are progressive...

f- 200/217lbs
r- 160/208lbs

with a .6" lowering

so, all this said, it's my hopes that eibach will develop a kit that will offer a lower stance than this kit, for a lower price, but with possibly a bit more aggressive handling if possible.

[channah]

so next monday my car is goin into the eibach warehouse for the fitting and measuring, of the new mazdaspeed 3 kit theyre developing. i get it back weds, so this kit should be coming out soon.

2 thumbs up for free spring for me! haha

[builthatch]

so next monday my car is goin into the eibach warehouse for the fitting and measuring, of the new mazdaspeed 3 kit theyre developing. i get it back weds, so this kit should be coming out soon.

2 thumbs up for free spring for me! haha

channah thanks for getting geared up with eibach r&d and helping this happen!

[ericrapp]

so next monday my car is goin into the eibach warehouse for the fitting and measuring, of the new mazdaspeed 3 kit theyre developing. i get it back weds, so this kit should be coming out soon.

2 thumbs up for free spring for me! haha

Try and tell me this isn't cool!

[ericrapp]

channah thanks for getting geared up with eibach r&d and helping this happen!

if you guys want a product review, send some my way ! Be aware that some of us, especially me, will be adding a bit more tire and antiroll upgrades so be sure to tune these for the perfomance bunch of us . Looking forward!