Racing Cosmic Blue Mazdaspeed 3 nailed by Hummer and kills both in Mazda.

[ragindark]

http://news14.com/content/top_stories/592202/wreck-leaves-two-dead--others-injured/Default.aspx

Wreck leaves two dead, others injured
Updated: 01/26/2008 05:49 PM
By: Aaron Mesmer

Fatal Wreck
News 14 Carolina's Aaron Mesmer is on the scene with the latest update.

CORNELIUS, N.C. -- Two young brothers died in a wreck Saturday morning in Cornelius.



The National Hot Rod Association web site reports the boys are the sons of driver Doug Herbert.



Jon Herbert, 17, and his 12-year-old brother James were in a 2008 Mazda that collided head-on with a 2004 Hummer H2 just before 10:30 a.m. Saturday at West Catawba Avenue and Jetton Road.



“…We both talked to him, and … I told him ‘My dad doesn’t like me riding with you because the way you drive, and he’s afraid you’re either going to kill someone one day or kill yourself in an accident, and today it happens,” said Jon Herbert’s friend Mike Long. “It’s just weird how things happen like that sometimes.”



According to a Cornelius Police Department press release, "Witnesses reported that the 2008 Mazda was traveling east on Jetton and attempted to pass a third vehicle, also traveling east, in the westbound lane against the flow of traffic."



"According to witnesses, the Mazda lost control and was struck by the Hummer traveling west on Jetton. Both occupants of the Mazda died at the scene."



Two people in the Hummer H2 were taken to the hospital. The driver, an adult male, was airlifted to Carolinas Medical Center. The passenger, a juvenile female, was taken by ambulane.



People at the scene say Jon and James were students at Southlake Christian Academy. The NHRA said their father Doug was in Arizona for preseason testing, but is now on his way back to North Carolina.


http://www.wbtv.com/news/topstories/14452337.html

Fatal Wreck on Jetton Road
There was a fatal crash on Jetton Road at West Catawba Avenue around 10:00 this morning.

There are two people confirmed dead at this time. The crash reportedly occurred when a mazda was racing up Jetton Road and hit a Hummer. There was also a third vehicle involved.

Jetton Road is back open at this time.

We will bring you more information as we get it.


http://news14.com/Video/video_pop.aspx?vids=62946&sid=1&rid=94


http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/7369/01wreck2ra6.jpg

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/3118/02wreckjetton2zz8.jpg

[AtenzaNY62]

KIDS.................... sigh =(

[enganear]

KIDS.................... sigh =(

If I had a car with this much power at 17, I doubt that I would have survived. This is a tragic loss. So many young people to not live past the life lesson that teaches them about mortality. My heart goes out to their family and friends.

We should all learn something from this. Being careful means that you, those that love you, and the innocents may live another day.

Stay safe out there,
-enganear

[TheMAN]

I hate to say it, but the kid gets the darwin award... this shit is NOT TV and it's NOT video games... and worse yet, it's his parent's fault for buying a kid such a fast car... kids are unpredictable and need to stay driving old slow ass cars so that they can learn how to drive a car properly... furthermore, I think it's also their friends fault for not telling this guy's parents about his wreckless driving behavior, or if they did it's truely the parents fault for this shit happening

this shit sucks and it pisses me off that parents keep buying their kids nice fucking cars and hurting themselves and people

[jaydubz]

This is so tragic, my heart goes out to the family. People caught street racing need to get a chance to see what a corpse looks like, that would wake some people up.

I can just imagine the heartache and turmoil that father must be in having lost both his sons. God be with them!

[TheMAN]

his parents will get no pity from me... in fact, I want to shoot them for being such idiots in spoiling their kid in buying him a nice fast ass car leaving the open potential that it could hurt/kill people

[jaydubz]

his parents will get no pity from me... in fact, I want to shoot them for being such idiots in spoiling their kid in buying him a nice fast ass car leaving the open potential that it could hurt/kill people

Parents are human and they make mistakes, forgive me if I am addressing a demigod. I am sure you feel pretty awesome for taking such a hard stance on a very tragic loss. Good, bad or indifferent they lost two children, despite buying them an expensive and fast car it is terrible thing that no one should go through.

I certainly hope you never experience such pain, grow up and drop the bad boy persona! Have a heart

[TheMAN]

read this one and maybe you'll think differently
http://www.wfsb.com/news/14267776/detail.html
that kid was allowed to keep driving by their rich ass parents, they kept buying him nice fast cars... who's fault is it?

I can see the mom in my mind saying "why did god take my baby?" god has nothing to do with either of these instances you dumb bitches


these are classic extreme examples of cause and effect... its sad people don't consider the consequences of what their decisions would be... it is the parents job to ensure the safety of their child and clearly both of these parents have failed miserably at this job

[jaydubz]

I am not debating if it was right or wrong for them to buy him a fast car, sure its probably not the smartest thing to do. In retrospect I am sure he wish he had not gotten him such a fast car, but the loss and pain associated with it must be monumental.

Are the parents at fault? Yes, you bet your ass!

Does it excuse the pain that one feels from losing a loved one? Not at all!

You have a point, but also try to have a heart for someones loss. That is what makes us human.

[D-rock240]

I have to agree with Edwin on this one. I knew a kid in school who died doing 150 in his dads Porsche. Or one girl who went through 3 brand new Eclipses in one school year (she kept wrecking them, and her dad kept buying new ones.)

I'm glad my parents made my brother and I drive a slow Escort for a couple years first, helped me a lot.

[ForceFed]

TheMan...Just chill..you are passionate...But its really not needed.
No matter what..that was still someones kid, their son, their life.
Have some sort of respect.
I could see if he was drunk or something..but have a heart.

[bazooka joe]

regardless, it's still a shame

[BioSehnsucht]

Hahaha fucking tards.

Ok, maybe the passenger shouldn't be laughed at, but I'm sure he knew the driver would do this kind of shit by now.

Passing traffic in the oncoming lane? WHAT A FUCKING MORON.
It's one thing when you're in bumfuck nowhere and can see whats ahead of you for half a mile and there's NOTHING THERE, but what the fuck, come on.

Driver's death = cleaning the gene pool, he's too stupid to live for driving like that
passenger's death = cleaning the gene pool, too stupid to live for willingly riding with a driver like that

I feel sorry for the Hummer driver/passenger, that shit ain't their fault. Lucky they were in a tank.

[Akaveli]

I'm sorry for their lost but the parents should have known better.

[lc_MS3]

his parents will get no pity from me... in fact, I want to shoot them for being such idiots in spoiling their kid in buying him a nice fast ass car leaving the open potential that it could hurt/kill people


KIDS.................... sigh =(


I'm sorry for their lost but the parents should have known better.

As a 16 year old with a MS3 i resent these comments. I got it as my first car, and i don't believe that me having it is wrong. I am not spoiled, I pay for half of my car monthly. And one more thing, i know haw fast the car is, but there are faster cars out there. I am not putting any car down here, but i know what cars are faster than mine and i will admit this. Some kids in the area near me drive EVO's and STI's, and they don't get killed. Don't be so quick to blame the accident on the car. If the kid was stupid enough to make that move in a Speed3 he would have done the same in a focus, or civic. Once again thought, don't judge all kids by the actions of some stupid ones. Not to put anyone down once again, but MS3 is NOT the fastest car out there. To my parents the car is just enough to get me a speeding ticket and nothing more. I know some here is going say that since I'm 16 and inexperienced I don't know how fast the car is, and that may be but to say "an MS3 is too fast for a teenager" is just stupid. Some people are starting to sound like EVO owners (dunno). So just venting but keep this in mind.

[happy and angry]

It is too much car for a new driver. It's more than just a vehicle that can get you a speeding ticket. It's faster than probably 90% of the vehicles on the market right now.

Be careful, be safe. Please.

[flipstylex]

so sad... another cosmic blue down the drain....i pray for the family .


anyways, to me, it's not the car that kill people....regardless of age or gender...you can get into an accident nomatter how safe you drive ...it's just mother nature :)

[happy and angry]

anyways, to me, it's not the car that kill people....regardless of age or gender...you can get into an accident nomatter how safe you driveYou are aware of the wildly disproportionate number of accidents that young drivers get in compared to older drivers, aren't you?

[RODSCALIP5]

This sucks, I feel bad for the people in the Hummer.

The title to this thread suggest the Hummer was at fault, it should read "MS3 slams into Hummer, injures both passengers in the Hummer"

[AtenzaNY62]

TheMan...Just chill..you are passionate...But its really not needed.
No matter what..that was still someones kid, their son, their life.
Have some sort of respect.
I could see if he was drunk or something..but have a heart.

yea... its still someones children, have some respect... street racing is stupid, you might lose control even though you dont want it to... and put others in danger too, im 19 so to someone i might still be considered a kid, and i use to do stupid things to show off... and all those things i did were stupid and idiotic i admit.. and i'll never do any stupid things again cuz a lesson well learned from all these articles etc.

[Bravnik]

This is a prime example of how messed up parents are today. Getting a car that fast for a 17 year old is just asking for trouble. I seen this happen so many times on the S2000 forums as well. Why do parents want to play Russian Roulette with their kids lives.

[Sacrilicious]

It is too much car for a new driver. It's more than just a vehicle that can get you a speeding ticket. It's faster than probably 90% of the vehicles on the market right now.

Be careful, be safe. Please.

+1

i drove an OLD nissan sentra when i first started driving, and i really don't believe that kids starting to drive should be given a car as fast as a ms3. no matter how safe they think they are going to be, they lack experience, and that's the kind of thing that gets people killed.

hell, i know that i could get killed walking down the street, but the point of the matter is that there's certain things that greatly increase the chance that someone will get killed: this is one of them.

[Sacrilicious]

This is a prime example of how messed up parents are today. Getting a car that fast for a 17 year old is just asking for trouble. I seen this happen so many times on the S2000 forums as well. Why do parents want to play Russian Roulette with their kids lives.

my kid is getting a freakin wheel barrow to drive at 16...

[Sacrilicious]

RIP to the people gone in the incident. it will be very painful for the people who have lost a loved one, but if it inspires other people to learn from this mistake, then it will at least save some lives in the future...=/

[///M Compact]

What ticks me off is that the Safety Nazis(and possibly the the parents of the "victims") will likely blame Mazda for building a car with "too much power"- much like what often happens when a helmetless flip-flop wearing squid vindicates the Law of Natural Selection on a sportbike; the bike catches the blame.

[orlandomsp]

Having a "fast" car as a 1st car has nothing to do with it. If you're going to be retarded and cross the double yellow to pass another car then chances are you're gonna do the same thing in a regular Mazda 3 or any other p.o.s. car. I don't really care for idiots who pass over the dotted yellow out in Bumfuck country without looking first, or making sure the coast is clear either. I've seen people just dart into the opposing lane only to narrowly avoid disaster because they don't know how to fkin drive. The idiot behind the wheel comes from a family involved in motorsports he should have known better or have been taught better by his parents.

[flipstylex]

Having a "fast" car as a 1st car has nothing to do with it. If you're going to be retarded and cross the double yellow to pass another car then chances are you're gonna do the same thing in a regular Mazda 3 or any other p.o.s. car. I don't really care for idiots who pass over dotted yellow out in Bumfuck country without looking first, or making sure the coast is clear, I've seen people just dart into the opposing lane only to narrowly avoid disaster because they don't know how to fkin drive. The idiot behind the wheel comes from a family involved in motorsports he should have known better or have been taught better by his parents.

+1

young drivers in general will drive fast on any kind of car, heck even on a kia they go 100 miles an hour ;). the fast car just add a little more mustard on top....but put it this way, it might save lives to , hence it has more braking power than a corolla :)

[Bravnik]

As a 16 year old with a MS3 i resent these comments. I got it as my first car, and i don't believe that me having it is wrong. I am not spoiled, I pay for half of my car monthly. And one more thing, i know haw fast the car is, but there are faster cars out there. I am not putting any car down here, but i know what cars are faster than mine and i will admit this. Some kids in the area near me drive EVO's and STI's, and they don't get killed. Don't be so quick to blame the accident on the car. If the kid was stupid enough to make that move in a Speed3 he would have done the same in a focus, or civic. Once again thought, don't judge all kids by the actions of some stupid ones. Not to put anyone down once again, but MS3 is NOT the fastest car out there. To my parents the car is just enough to get me a speeding ticket and nothing more. I know some here is going say that since I'm 16 and inexperienced I don't know how fast the car is, and that may be but to say "an MS3 is too fast for a teenager" is just stupid. Some people are starting to sound like EVO owners (dunno). So just venting but keep this in mind.

I don't blame the car I blame the idiot parents that buy their kids such fast cars, yours included.

Sorry if that hurts but the truth is that you're 16years old and you WILL be a 16yr old and do something stupid in the car. Sure you might live to see your 20s and you might not. The point is why take the chance when it could be avoided to a degree with a Civic. There is just so much out there for a 16 year old to avoid (Gangs, Drugs, Accidents.....) already and the parents don't need to put more in your path by giving you a 250HP car to toy around with. The truth is you will do something stupid no matter what car you have, at least your parents should try to limit the damage instead of trying to be cool.

Put it too you this way. Your parents will feel like pure shit and totally responsible if you end up killing yourself or someone else. Why take that risk? There is NO NEED for any 16 year old to drive a MS3, EVO, STi or any other car in that catagory.

This is my personal opinion and you can resent it all you wish. When you're my age and your nuts have dropped a bit you will understand. Until such time as that I fully expect you to resent adult comments as you're a 16 year old and I expect nothing less that you believing your 100% invencable. (drive2)

[newwildchild]

that really sad, the teen just did not have the maturity enough to be driving a fast car , he made a bad decision it cost his life and brother

[USMCEvan]

My first car was a 2000 Focus that already had a salvage title from being in a flood (little electrical damage but thats it). Any mods put on were done BY ME. I had just turned 18 at the time. I wrecked it three times before I left for bootcamp, each time a minor wreck, but I paid for EVERYTHING out of my own pocket.

POINT - the parents BOUGHT their kid a fast car without teaching him any kind of responsibility. I blame them. Call me an ass, but they gave a child a loaded weapon. Ive driven stupid before, and come close to several accidents in the are of 100MPH but I normally wont drive stupid when in traffic OR when I have somebody else in my car. I dont mind risking my life - its my fault, only I suffer for my decisions - but I wont risk a friends life. If he dies and I dont, I dont want to have to face his parents. Hell, I drive like a old woman when my gf is in the car cuz her dad would murder me.


Not to say that passing on the left has never taken place in my past. I have driven on the shoulder, on the left lane, on closed roads, at 120 in the rain, and cut thru gaps smaller than my car somehow. Ive read enough of these stories that I have calmed down and learned to behave myself.

[Red5_02]

Gotta agree the theMan on this one. Giving a kid a fast car is just a problem. At 16 you just haven't developed enough to make good decisions. I know 21 year olds who haven't developed enough to make good decisions. When you're 16 the only thing you know about speed is what Gran Tourismo has taught you. I had too many friends in high school die from doing dumb shit in a fast car. You can swear all up and down that not all young drivers are idiots but the majority of them are. I'm pretty sure most countries require you to be a certain age before you can have a car with a lot of power. It's just here in the US where we're all invincible can you get a monster of a car at 16. Can't deny the facts. 16 year olds are idiots. Don't be offended. Just accepted it for what it is.

[USMCEvan]

Right, Red5. Like I said, Im only 21, but here is the thing - Ive been through ALOT of drivers improvement courses and such, Ive taken plenty of classes so I dont consider myself a normal 21 yer old punk with a fast car, Im at least a little bit more skilled with my vehicle.

[WRCprotege]

people make choices, no falt but your own, he made the choice,and this time it was wrong..i drive fast, i love it.. just have to use good judgment, which most 16-20(age) drivers dont have.. a fast car and no idea what your doing can get you in trouble real fast, too fast..all to many times have i seen this..ill still drive fast,even a quik race here or there, but you have to mind others on the road and be smart about it, any dumbass can hammer down and go fast, this is an outcome of that..my son is ten now, scares me to think of him driving..slowest car with the biggest cage for him if hes anything like me at that age..

[Tagkat]

As a 16 year old with a MS3 i resent these comments. I got it as my first car, and i don't believe that me having it is wrong. I am not spoiled, I pay for half of my car monthly. And one more thing, i know haw fast the car is, but there are faster cars out there. I am not putting any car down here, but i know what cars are faster than mine and i will admit this. Some kids in the area near me drive EVO's and STI's, and they don't get killed. Don't be so quick to blame the accident on the car. If the kid was stupid enough to make that move in a Speed3 he would have done the same in a focus, or civic. Once again thought, don't judge all kids by the actions of some stupid ones. Not to put anyone down once again, but MS3 is NOT the fastest car out there. To my parents the car is just enough to get me a speeding ticket and nothing more. I know some here is going say that since I'm 16 and inexperienced I don't know how fast the car is, and that may be but to say "an MS3 is too fast for a teenager" is just stupid. Some people are starting to sound like EVO owners (dunno). So just venting but keep this in mind.

Just a question how fast have you driven on a public road? Be honest.

Getting in a wreck in a car that can do 130+ very easy or getting in a wreck in a car that barely does 80 I think there would considerable more damage in a car that is traveling in a higher speed. I started in a 1982 Honda prelude since then I've had 3 vettes 1 twin turbo supra a mustang gt and now a speed 3. I can tell you that when I was 16~18 I was a hell of alot more daring than I was in my 20's and 30's.

[blacksheepms3]

subscribed

[///M Compact]

And of course, this will ramp up the insurance costs for all of us as well...

[lc_MS3]

I don't blame the car I blame the idiot parents that buy their kids such fast cars, yours included.

Sorry if that hurts but the truth is that you're 16years old and you WILL be a 16yr old and do something stupid in the car. Sure you might live to see your 20s and you might not. The point is why take the chance when it could be avoided to a degree with a Civic. There is just so much out there for a 16 year old to avoid (Gangs, Drugs, Accidents.....) already and the parents don't need to put more in your path by giving you a 250HP car to toy around with. The truth is you will do something stupid no matter what car you have, at least your parents should try to limit the damage instead of trying to be cool.

Put it too you this way. Your parents will feel like pure shit and totally responsible if you end up killing yourself or someone else. Why take that risk? There is NO NEED for any 16 year old to drive a MS3, EVO, STi or any other car in that catagory.

This is my personal opinion and you can resent it all you wish. When you're my age and your nuts have dropped a bit you will understand. Until such time as that I fully expect you to resent adult comments as you're a 16 year old and I expect nothing less that you believing your 100% invencable. (drive2)

Once again this is a case of a stupid driver not car. I know my limits, and I still can have a fast car at 16. So to say ALL teens are bad drivers and should not be aloud to have a "car of this caliper"(which once again is not "faster than 90% of vehicles out there") is like saying "all Hispanic people are illegal aliens" or "All German people hate Jewish people". Also to say my parents are stupid would not be correct. They knew exactly what they bought me, and they knew I could handle it without being dangerous to myself or anyone else.


It is too much car for a new driver. It's more than just a vehicle that can get you a speeding ticket. It's faster than probably 90% of the vehicles on the market right now.
Be careful, be safe. Please.

See above comment, and please learn to get over yourself and your car. Yes it is a fast car, but they're cars out there that ARE faster. Like I said earlier, you guys are starting to sound like EVO owners. You don't think anything out there is faster, and that is what is dangerous. You are always out to make sure people think you are the fastest. Coming from learning how to drive in a Porsche 911, a 350Z and a C6 Vette, this car was nothing new to me. And I believe someone said this earlier, but a stupid teen in any car is dangerous, just like a good driver in a not so great car can still drive well.



Once again not trying to start an E-fight, but i resent being told that I'm either "spoiled", "Have stupid parents" or "I don't have the 'experience to drive a 20K car". I find people who say this ignorant a$$ holes.(eekfu)

[~JoJo~]

i felt bad for the younger brother, and I am sure the parents are are going to regret for life.

[Tagkat]

Once again this is a case of a stupid driver not car. I know my limits, and I still can have a fast car at 16. So to say ALL teens are bad drivers and should not be aloud to have a "car of this caliper"(which once again is not "faster than 90% of vehicles out there") is like saying "all Hispanic people are illegal aliens" or "All German people hate Jewish people". Also to say my parents are stupid would not be correct. They knew exactly what they bought me, and they knew I could handle it without being dangerous to myself or anyone else.



See above comment, and please learn to get over yourself and your car. Yes it is a fast car, but they're cars out there that ARE faster. Like I said earlier, you guys are starting to sound like EVO owners. You don't think anything out there is faster, and that is what is dangerous. You are always out to make sure people think you are the fastest. Coming from learning how to drive in a Porsche 911, a 350Z and a C6 Vette, this car was nothing new to me. And I believe someone said this earlier, but a stupid teen in any car is dangerous, just like a good driver in a not so great car can still drive well.



Once again not trying to start an E-fight, but i resent being told that I'm either "spoiled", "Have stupid parents" or "I don't have the 'experience to drive a 20K car". I find people who say this ignorant a$$ holes.(eekfu)

No offense but price has nothing to do with a fast car. And 90% of the cars are faster, come on... seriously.

[lc_MS3]

Gotta agree the theMan on this one. Giving a kid a fast car is just a problem. At 16 you just haven't developed enough to make good decisions. I know 21 year olds who haven't developed enough to make good decisions. When you're 16 the only thing you know about speed is what Gran Tourismo has taught you. I had too many friends in high school die from doing dumb shit in a fast car. You can swear all up and down that not all young drivers are idiots but the majority of them are. I'm pretty sure most countries require you to be a certain age before you can have a car with a lot of power. It's just here in the US where we're all invincible can you get a monster of a car at 16. Can't deny the facts. 16 year olds are idiots. Don't be offended. Just accepted it for what it is.

I learned driving mostly from professional drivers. Many of which are family friends. Also learning from my 50 year old father who has had fast cars all his life. And once again 16 year olds aren't the only people that are idiots when driving. ANYONE can be an idiot while driving. Age and Sex not having anything to do with it. And again MS3 IS NOT a "monster of a car".


Just a question how fast have you driven on a public road? Be honest.

Getting in a wreck in a car that can do 130+ very easy or getting in a wreck in a car that barely does 80 I think there would considerable more damage in a car that is traveling in a higher speed. I started in a 1982 Honda prelude since then I've had 3 vettes 1 twin turbo supra a mustang gt and now a speed 3. I can tell you that when I was 16~18 I was a hell of alot more daring than I was in my 20's and 30's.

The fastest i have been was 110 on the 5 freeway avoiding side-swiped by a big rig. I drive no faster than 75-80 in free flowing traffic.



No offense but price has nothing to do with a fast car. And 90% of the cars are faster, come on... seriously.

What i was trying to say is that a MASDASPEED3 is no exotic sports car. It is a sports car but I can easily name 10 cars faster than it (putting down the 90%). My car is tied in last place of fastest car in my family. My dad drives a Vette, that we just got after having a Porsche. My brother drives a Z(the tie). So to say that "90% of cars are slower" is ignorant and ill put. My dad told me he drove cars much more potent than this when he was a kid. So once again "kids" DO SOME RESEARCH ON OTHER CARS!!!!!!!(asshole) Love to see you call my dad stupid to face. What a stupid thing to say. Or my mom for that fact.

[SwampAss]

..........it pisses me off that parents keep buying their kids nice fucking cars and hurting themselves and people......

........I want to shoot them for being such idiots in spoiling their kid in buying him a nice fast ass car.........


..........that kid was allowed to keep driving by their rich ass parents, they kept buying him nice fast cars...


After 3 separate mentions of kids being spoiled or having rich parents who buy them nice cars, I am starting to see a pattern or possible motivation in your replies.


Was it the best idea to put this kid behind the wheel of an MS3? Apparently not. Did he act foolishly? Most certainly.
Do his parents deserve the tragedy of losing two children?
Did he deserve to die?

No. In fact, it's callous to suggest such. It was a series of bad decisions that ended up with two innocent people injured and two people dead.

Tragic event? Absolutely.
Deserved? No.

[RODSCALIP5]

Once again this is a case of a stupid driver not car. I know my limits, and I still can have a fast car at 16. So to say ALL teens are bad drivers and should not be aloud to have a "car of this caliper"(which once again is not "faster than 90% of vehicles out there") is like saying "all Hispanic people are illegal aliens" or "All German people hate Jewish people". Also to say my parents are stupid would not be correct. They knew exactly what they bought me, and they knew I could handle it without being dangerous to myself or anyone else.



See above comment, and please learn to get over yourself and your car. Yes it is a fast car, but they're cars out there that ARE faster. Like I said earlier, you guys are starting to sound like EVO owners. You don't think anything out there is faster, and that is what is dangerous. You are always out to make sure people think you are the fastest. Coming from learning how to drive in a Porsche 911, a 350Z and a C6 Vette, this car was nothing new to me. And I believe someone said this earlier, but a stupid teen in any car is dangerous, just like a good driver in a not so great car can still drive well.



Once again not trying to start an E-fight, but i resent being told that I'm either "spoiled", "Have stupid parents" or "I don't have the 'experience to drive a 20K car". I find people who say this ignorant a$$ holes.(eekfu)

I don't think anyone here has claimed this is the fastest car on the road. Everyone is saying that this car is too fast for a 16 year old. BTW, no one said you don't have the experience to drive a 20K car, price has nothing to do with it.

[Bravnik]

Once again this is a case of a stupid driver not car. I know my limits, and I still can have a fast car at 16. So to say ALL teens are bad drivers and should not be aloud to have a "car of this caliper"(which once again is not "faster than 90% of vehicles out there") is like saying "all Hispanic people are illegal aliens" or "All German people hate Jewish people". Also to say my parents are stupid would not be correct. They knew exactly what they bought me, and they knew I could handle it without being dangerous to myself or anyone else.



See above comment, and please learn to get over yourself and your car. Yes it is a fast car, but they're cars out there that ARE faster. Like I said earlier, you guys are starting to sound like EVO owners. You don't think anything out there is faster, and that is what is dangerous. You are always out to make sure people think you are the fastest. Coming from learning how to drive in a Porsche 911, a 350Z and a C6 Vette, this car was nothing new to me. And I believe someone said this earlier, but a stupid teen in any car is dangerous, just like a good driver in a not so great car can still drive well.



Once again not trying to start an E-fight, but i resent being told that I'm either "spoiled", "Have stupid parents" or "I don't have the 'experience to drive a 20K car". I find people who say this ignorant a$$ holes.(eekfu)


As I said I expect a comment like this from a 16year old. I know you think you know it all but believe me you don't even have a clue what life is about.

My opinion is that your parents are foolish to buy a MS3 for you at 16. Just about any adult will agree. Those that don't are just like your parents and do it to be cool parents, so their kid can be cool or because they just are stupid.

I ask you this;w Do you actually think the parents that just lost 2 kids regret their stupid decision and don't you think they felt their kid was as responsible as you? I bet coming from a NHRA family that 17year old probably drove cars that were way faster than you or I. I would bet he probably even been to driving school etc. and was VERY familure with fast cars. However, he was still 17 with his hormones going nuts through puberty, a lot to prove to dad etc.

So again, you're 16 and have no clue about life and I expect you to fight that fact tooth and nail. However, when your a parent maybe by then you will learn what your parents have failed to learn and what the parents of those 2 kids wished they would have learned.

Until such time....try your best to stay safe both in the car and out.

[Tagkat]

I learned driving mostly from professional drivers. Many of which are family friends. Also learning from my 50 year old father who has had fast cars all his life. And once again 16 year olds aren't the only people that are idiots when driving. ANYONE can be an idiot while driving. Age and Sex not having anything to do with it. And again MS3 IS NOT a "monster of a car".



The fastest i have been was 110 on the 5 freeway avoiding side-swiped by a big rig. I drive no faster than 75-80 in free flowing traffic.




What i was trying to say is that a MASDASPEED3 is no exotic sports car. It is a sports car but I can easily name 10 cars faster than it (putting down the 90%). My car is tied in last place of fastest car in my family. My dad drives a Vette, that we just got after having a Porsche. My brother drives a Z(the tie). So to say that "90% of cars are slower" is ignorant and ill put. My dad told me he drove cars much more potent than this when he was a kid. So once again "kids" DO SOME RESEARCH ON OTHER CARS!!!!!!!(asshole) Love to see you call my dad stupid to face. What a stupid thing to say. Or my mom for that fact.

I rest my case by the name calling. And 90% of cars are slower? I guarantee you just in Honda Accord, Toyota Camry, Ford Focus, Chevy Impala, Ford F-150, Chevy trucks, Dodge Caravans etc. sales that those cars are 90% slower.

[lc_MS3]

I don't think anyone here has claimed this is the fastest car on the road. Everyone is saying that this car is too fast for a 16 year old. BTW, no one said you don't have the experience to drive a 20K car, price has nothing to do with it.

Not what i meant. I was trying to point out that a MS3 is not a super expensive sports car that few can afford. At 20K it is reasonable for a teenager to afford. What i was referring to was when someone said that "MS3's were faster than 90% of other cars" which is not true.


As I said I expect a comment like this from a 16year old. I know you think you know it all but believe me you don't even have a clue what life is about.

My opinion is that your parents are foolish to buy a MS3 for you at 16. Just about any adult will agree. Those that don't are just like your parents and do it to be cool parents, so their kid can be cool or because they just are stupid.

I ask you this;w Do you actually think the parents that just lost 2 kids regret their stupid decision and don't you think they felt their kid was as responsible as you? I bet coming from a NHRA family that 17year old probably drove cars that were way faster than you or I. I would bet he probably even been to driving school etc. and was VERY familure with fast cars. However, he was still 17 with his hormones going nuts through puberty, a lot to prove to dad etc.

So again, you're 16 and have no clue about life and I expect you to fight that fact tooth and nail. However, when your a parent maybe by then you will learn what your parents have failed to learn and what the parents of those 2 kids wished they would have learned.

Until such time....try your best to stay safe both in the car and out.

I will be the first to tell you I don't know it all, but once again to say my parents are foolish is ignorant. My parents let me get this car because i am responsible, and have never liked to show off. My older broth on the other hand got a civic because they knew he would show off. So each case is individual. As for the kid, if he made a decision to cross a double yellow line, he would have done it in any car he was in, Mazda, Honda, or Kia. And to say my parents fail is quite opposite of the truth.
But if having a son in college, with a 3.5GPA and a good paying job, a son in high school with a 3.0GPA, also with a job, another son in elementary school. Both of them have 40+ hour a week jobs. Not to mention neither me nor any of my brothers smoke, drink, or do any drugs. Not to mention my mom is fighting Stage 4 breast cancer. Far from failing in life. (scratch)???

[lc_MS3]

I rest my case by the name calling. And 90% of cars are slower? I guarantee you just in Honda Accord, Toyota Camry, Ford Focus, Chevy Impala, Ford F-150, Chevy trucks, Dodge Caravans etc. sales that those cars are 90% slower.

Ok, but 90% of cars on the road are not slower. http://www.caranddriver.com/features/12396/the-quickest-cars-of-2007-20000-to-25000.html
Camry?

[Tagkat]

Not what i meant. I was trying to point out that a MS3 is not a super expensive sports car that few can afford. At 20K it is reasonable for a teenager to afford. What i was referring to was when someone said that "MS3's were faster than 90% of other cars" which is not true.



I will be the first to tell you I don't know it all, but once again to say my parents are foolish is ignorant. My parents let me get this car because i am responsible, and have never liked to show off. My older broth on the other hand got a civic because they knew he would show off. So each case is individual. As for the kid, if he made a decision to cross a double yellow line, he would have done it in any car he was in, Mazda, Honda, or Kia. And to say my parents fail is quite opposite of the truth.
But if having a son in college, with a 3.5GPA and a good paying job, a son in high school with a 3.0GPA, also with a job, another son in elementary school. Both of them have 40+ hour a week jobs. Not to mention neither me nor any of my brothers smoke, drink, or do any drugs. Not to mention my mom is fighting Stage 4 breast cancer. Far from failing in life. (scratch)???


See this is a perfect case, nobody said that your parents are failing they said foolish there is a big difference.

[lc_MS3]

I don't blame the car I blame the idiot parents that buy their kids such fast cars, yours included.
(drive2)


See this is a perfect case, nobody said that your parents are failing they said foolish there is a big difference.

See above statement.

[Tagkat]

See above statement.

I must have missed the failure part. Enjoy your teens its a great time and you have a great car to have fun in. Good luck

[lc_MS3]

I must have missed the failure part. Enjoy your teens its a great time and you have a great car to have fun in. Good luck

Thank you.(dance) I try to live everyday to its fullest. My parents call it "getting high on life". I appreciate the small amount of support from people out there in Mazdas24/7-land that agree that this was a stupid kid and that this accident had nothing to do with the car he was driving.

[detsilverms3]

I think if you're going to be retarded you're gonna do it in any vehicle. I had my first car a 1995 ford ranger at 16-17 on the freeway going 125-130 and i'll tell you first hand that speed in that truck wasnt the safest thing i could have been doing. i do think though that had that kid been taught to respect those speeds that he'd be alive today. i know even at that age even with that speed i knew what i could handle and where to be doing it and i don't think that it matters what vehicle it would have been i would have done the same thing. i was taught to do 80-90 on the freeway safely because most of the freeways around here average speed is 85 in the "fast lane". i definitely think with the advent of the "fast and furious" that parents should have been teaching their kids respect of their cars and other drivers on the road and i don't think parents do that today when they are giving their kids cars let alone cars like this. shit look at Hulk Hogans kid last year with his supra.

[Bravnik]

Idiots - Foolish, its all the same in the end. You're 16 you have no idea what's going to happen at 17. The first girl that gets in your car and says she gets really hot and loves to give head going fast will have your foot on the floorboard so fast your head will spin.

You're not old enough for Sex, drugs, girls (or guys) etc are in your life. By 18 you could be a meth addict for all we know.

A parents job is to do their best to protect their children. We do that by trying to teach them right but in the end its up to the child to do the right thing. You could very well go the rest of your life without a wreck or ticket.

However, parents can't just assume their kids will do the right thing 100% of the time. Thus they need to set limits and one limit I set is what car my children would get. There is no way I would buy my son a fast car. Not because he is a bad kid because he is actually a very responsable one. I would not because even good kids make bad decisions.

My parents thought I was a good kid. They purchased for me anything I ever wanted within reason. What they didn't know was that kid that had A's and B's was also a Pot smoker, Acid taker, Pill Popper and Beer drinker on the weekends. The things I did in my moms F150 would make your head spin. However, in my parents mind I was a great kid because they didn't know or refused to see.

However, I was lucky and to this day I have had 0 wrecks in my life, 3 tickets for speeding and no issues with the law ever. But that does not mean anything other than I was lucky. Get the point? Oh and forgot to mention that I'm 42YOA.

And on a side note, I hope your mom does good and I wish her the best.

[BlueWolfCry]

TheMan...Just chill..you are passionate...But its really not needed.
No matter what..that was still someones kid, their son, their life.
Have some sort of respect.
I could see if he was drunk or something..but have a heart.

ditto..

[flipstylex]

The opinions battle it out !!! round 4 ~~






and the winner is.......... !!!!! (blowup)

[lc_MS3]

Idiots - Foolish, its all the same in the end. You're 16 you have no idea what's going to happen at 17. The first girl that gets in your car and says she gets really hot and loves to give head going fast will have your foot on the floorboard so fast your head will spin.

You're not old enough for Sex, drugs, girls (or guys) etc are in your life. By 18 you could be a meth addict for all we know.

A parents job is to do their best to protect their children. We do that by trying to teach them right but in the end its up to the child to do the right thing. You could very well go the rest of your life without a wreck or ticket.

However, parents can't just assume their kids will do the right thing 100% of the time. Thus they need to set limits and one limit I set is what car my children would get. There is no way I would buy my son a fast car. Not because he is a bad kid because he is actually a very responsable one. I would not because even good kids make bad decisions.

My parents thought I was a good kid. They purchased for me anything I ever wanted within reason. What they didn't know was that kid that had A's and B's was also a Pot smoker, Acid taker, Pill Popper and Beer drinker on the weekends. The things I did in my moms F150 would make your head spin. However, in my parents mind I was a great kid because they didn't know or refused to see.

However, I was lucky and to this day I have had 0 wrecks in my life, 3 tickets for speeding and no issues with the law ever. But that does not mean anything other than I was lucky. Get the point? Oh and forgot to mention that I'm 42YOA.

And on a side note, I hope your mom does good and I wish her the best.

The thing is thought, I have learned over the past two years not to give a shit about showing off. And the hole girl thing, i dont worry my life about, and I would pull over to get more than head(butthump). Not to mention every kid is different. That is the only point I have tried to make. I am different from the kid who died because i know my limits. I have learned with my mom to value life, and I wouldn't do anything to jeopardize it. My parents don't just buy me everything I want either. I pay for anything and everything I want. 1G for my DSLR, $250 or tint, $150 a month for my car, $200+ a moth for gas, $400 for a cell phone. I believe that some kids mature faster and/or differently than others. And in my opinion you seem like a fat kid that was an unhappy. My dad was the the same way, but i can learn from his mistakes. And I'm not saying i don't go have fun in an empty parking lot once every few months, but i make sure I put myself/or anyone else in any harm. So ONCE again my parents are different than your parents, who are different from Joe Blows parents. That same effect is the same with kids.

[icespeed]

I'm a little torn on this one. It's always so very easy to point fingers when something like this happens. If the driver had survived and the passenger still died, is it still the parents fault? Or would we point fingers at the driver?

As far as I'm concerned (and I am by no means 16, although maybe still a kid mentally?) the only one who should be held accountable is the actual driver. He is the one that crossed the double yellow line. I don't care how fast the car is, how slow it is, who his brother's girlfriend's mom's ex boyfriend is, who his parents are or anything else. He was the one driving. A car cannot drive itself (yet). Therefore the car didn't decide it was going to cross the line for the driver. He is the one that made these decisions. Why not blame society while we're at it? Let's blame atari, they are, after-all, the ones who really mainstreamed video games 30 years ago. If not for Atari, "kids" now-a-days wouldn't be playing GT4 on PS2. Maybe we can blame the tire company. Please, please, we need someone to blame. Someone must be held accountable!

Looking back over the past 14 years (since I was 16), I have only learned one thing. I have learned it over and over and over again. People are hypocrites. I have not learned anything new about driving. The are only two driving laws that have changed (that I can think of). The speed limits were changed from the federal level to the state level and Florida is no longer no-fault.

Street racing is not a new thing because of the fast and the furious. For all you "old" people, go back and watch Better off Dead. For those a generation older than that, go back and watch American Graffitti. For those still older, watch Rebel without a Cause.

People driving "stupid" is not a new development either. If anything kids now-a-days are better off than when I was younger. Or perhaps when people older than me were younger. My parents grew up in the muscle car era. 400hp cars with no crumple zones, no headrests, no airbags, lapbelts instead of three point seatbelts. There were no child restraints back then. Power steering and NON-abs disc brakes were merely options back then.

My first car didn't have abs, airbags, disc brakes, hell maybe not even crumple zones. The only people I can imagine saying this MS3 is too fast for kids either a) completely forgot their childhoods (meaning muscle car era) or grew up in the late 70's to late 80's where the mpg was more important. Even if option B is the case, you still must concede that these "more powerful" cars have a better chance of saving lives than our cars did from the 80's.

I'd like to think I know how to drive "properly". In '94 I drove 60 in a 45 and I still drive 60 in a 45. In '94 I always knew my surroundings while behind the wheel and I still do today. Do I break the laws of the road? Probably on a daily basis in some form or another. What about everyone else? Inconsequential unless they directly effect me.

Yeah it's tragic that this had to happen this way. But, at the end of the day, this kid made a bad decision and it cost him his life as well as his brother's.

His parents are going through enough right now w/o some jackbags looking for someone to crucify. Say your peace and pray the people in the hummer pull through.

[lc_MS3]

I'm a little torn on this one. It's always so very easy to point fingers when something like this happens. If the driver had survived and the passenger still died, is it still the parents fault? Or would we point fingers at the driver?

As far as I'm concerned (and I am by no means 16, although maybe still a kid mentally?) the only one who should be held accountable is the actual driver. He is the one that crossed the double yellow line. I don't care how fast the car is, how slow it is, who his brother's girlfriend's mom's ex boyfriend is, who his parents are or anything else. He was the one driving. A car cannot drive itself (yet). Therefore the car didn't decide it was going to cross the line for the driver. He is the one that made these decisions. Why not blame society while we're at it? Let's blame atari, they are, after-all, the ones who really mainstreamed video games 30 years ago. If not for Atari, "kids" now-a-days wouldn't be playing GT4 on PS2. Maybe we can blame the tire company. Please, please, we need someone to blame. Someone must be held accountable!

Looking back over the past 14 years (since I was 16), I have only learned one thing. I have learned it over and over and over again. People are hypocrites. I have not learned anything new about driving. The are only two driving laws that have changed (that I can think of). The speed limits were changed from the federal level to the state level and Florida is no longer no-fault.

Street racing is not a new thing because of the fast and the furious. For all you "old" people, go back and watch Better off Dead. For those a generation older than that, go back and watch American Graffitti. For those still older, watch Rebel without a Cause.

People driving "stupid" is not a new development either. If anything kids now-a-days are better off than when I was younger. Or perhaps when people older than me were younger. My parents grew up in the muscle car era. 400hp cars with no crumple zones, no headrests, no airbags, lapbelts instead of three point seatbelts. There were no child restraints back then. Power steering and NON-abs disc brakes were merely options back then.

My first car didn't have abs, airbags, disc brakes, hell maybe not even crumple zones. The only people I can imagine saying this MS3 is too fast for kids either a) completely forgot their childhoods (meaning muscle car era) or grew up in the late 70's to late 80's where the mpg was more important. Even if option B is the case, you still must concede that these "more powerful" cars have a better chance of saving lives than our cars did from the 80's.

I'd like to think I know how to drive "properly". In '94 I drove 60 in a 45 and I still drive 60 in a 45. In '94 I always knew my surroundings while behind the wheel and I still do today. Do I break the laws of the road? Probably on a daily basis in some form or another. What about everyone else? Inconsequential unless they directly effect me.

Yeah it's tragic that this had to happen this way. But, at the end of the day, this kid made a bad decision and it cost him his life as well as his brother's.

His parents are going through enough right now w/o some jackbags looking for someone to crucify. Say your peace and pray the people in the hummer pull through.

Thank you. All I was trying to say here. NOT THE CAR. The KID made the bad move and my prayers are with him.

[blacksheepms3]

... And I'm not saying i don't go have fun in an empty parking lot once every few months, but i make sure I put myself/or anyone else in any harm.

hehe make sure you put yourself along with other people in any harm when you do donuts. hehehe

[icespeed]

lol, yeah, lc_ms3, you forgot the "don't" in that statement. You don't want to put yourself or anyone else in harms way.

[lc_MS3]

hehe make sure you put yourself along with other people in any harm when you do donuts. hehehe

good catch on the typo. it should read "i make sure i DONT put myself/others in harm"(wow) my bad

[Bravnik]

The thing is thought, I have learned over the past two years not to give a shit about showing off. And the hole girl thing, i dont worry my life about, and I would pull over to get more than head(butthump). Not to mention every kid is different. That is the only point I have tried to make. I am different from the kid who died because i know my limits. I have learned with my mom to value life, and I wouldn't do anything to jeopardize it. My parents don't just buy me everything I want either. I pay for anything and everything I want. 1G for my DSLR, $250 or tint, $150 a month for my car, $200+ a moth for gas, $400 for a cell phone. I believe that some kids mature faster and/or differently than others. And in my opinion you seem like a fat kid that was an unhappy. My dad was the the same way, but i can learn from his mistakes. And I'm not saying i don't go have fun in an empty parking lot once every few months, but i make sure I put myself/or anyone else in any harm. So ONCE again my parents are different than your parents, who are different from Joe Blows parents. That same effect is the same with kids.

LOL - Fat Kid that was unhappy - Oh how the maturity shows. Yep really mature there for a 16 year old. Actually about what I would expect from a 16 year old who feels they need to defend themselves.

So again, I wish your mom the best. I hope you drive safe and live to be my age and learn a bit more about life. I hope your parents don't ever have to regret buying you a MS3 and I hope you don't ether. Be safe, stay in school, off drugs and out of gangs.

[Betelgeuse]

read this one and maybe you'll think differently
http://www.wfsb.com/news/14267776/detail.html
that kid was allowed to keep driving by their rich ass parents, they kept buying him nice fast cars... who's fault is it?

I can see the mom in my mind saying "why did god take my baby?" god has nothing to do with either of these instances you dumb bitches

these are classic extreme examples of cause and effect... its sad people don't consider the consequences of what their decisions would be... it is the parents job to ensure the safety of their child and clearly both of these parents have failed miserably at this job

+1

LOL! While there are exceptions, teens shouldn't be given fast cars so early. I see them here taking unnecessary risks all the time. Your last statement is so true - many people just don't consider the possible consequences of the dumb things they do until something happens. If the other car wasn't a hummer, those other people probably would've been killed as well and what's sad is it could've been us or one of our friends or relatives.

Ic_MS3:

The fact that you take offense to the comments here shows your immaturity.
You need to accept the fact that you're in a age-group that statistically are more likely to wreck or be killed in a fast car. Now, like I said above, there are always exceptions and you might be one of them - good for you. But the stats don't lie.

[jaydubz]

LOL - Fat Kid that was unhappy - Oh how the maturity shows. Yep really mature there for a 16 year old. Actually about what I would expect from a 16 year old who feels they need to defend themselves.

So again, I wish your mom the best. I hope you drive safe and live to be my age and learn a bit more about life. I hope your parents don't ever have to regret buying you a MS3 and I hope you don't ether. Be safe, stay in school, off drugs and out of gangs.

I think you guys need to give LC some credit he is a 16 kid who is holding his own on a very opinionated forum and is bringing up some great points.

Posters like Bavnik seem to relish the fact that these kids were given a fast car and this some how led to their death. ****News Flash**** Even if those kids had been given a 85 honda civic hatch back they would probably still be dead! So are you going to argue that the honda had the potential for becoming fast and the parents should have considered this?!?! Get real!

I just love how someone who is probably in his mid 20 or lower can sit there and point the finger like that. If you want to blame the parents, blame them for not spending more time teaching them driving skills or spending more money on driving courses. Dont lump it all on just buying a car, how ignorant and misinformed of you!

If we want to talk about risks like betelgeuse had mentioned then look no further than this thread http://**********************/index.php?topic=92382.0 where forum members chronicle high speed risks. Maybe according to bravnik and Betelguese and others these were all 16 to 20 yr olds running amuck in their parental sourced MS3s. Stupidity takes all forms!

[MAZDARacing2007]

Im a 16 year old MS3 owner, and just because you are 16 doesnt meen that u are going to kill everyone and everything, yea it was stupid for him to be driving fast, and i actually knew him very well. he was a close friend and was a really awesome person. Yea it was his mistake, not the cars. Pray for him, and his family

[Betelgeuse]

Guys like I said before the stats don't lie. You could believe whatever you want to but at the end of the day, teens are less experienced drivers for the simple reason they haven't been behind the wheel long enough.


Yeah I drive fast but my risk taking has dramatically declined from when I was under 20. As I get older I double and triple check the situation before hand.


Jaydubz, speed kills and in the wrong hands, it's even worse. An ms3 will accelerate a whole lot quicker than an '85 civic or even the average civic on the road right now. The mentality of the average teen in a fast car is to show off to his friends and 'beat' every other car off the line or from a roll or whatever... it's just a phase of growing up. Been there done that. I'd rather him/her try to to do that in a civic or corolla than something a lot quicker

But your is point taken, teens will take risks in any car and that is true to some degree but they may be less inclined to do so in something they know is slow.

However like others mentioned, there's more to it than that. I think parents should teach good driving skills and hammer the dangers of speeding home. Giving their kid a fast car isn't best way to go about this for obvious reasons.

[oneofakindms3]

4 whoever said dis is da parents fault 50 50.Every parent wants to be da best at everything so if u buy ur young son a car ur just trying to do ur job as a father.2 da kids who crashed R.I.P i think i speak 4 evryone NO ONE IN DIS WORLD DESERVES 2 BURY THERE CHILDREN UR KIDS R SUPPOSE TO BURY U.Yah if da dad knew his son wuz an aggreive driver he shoulda gave em an escort but mistakes like this unfortunately happen n we all learn from our mistakes.Special condolences go out 2 there family.Cant believe u guys r bashing on dis kids parents show sum support n have sum sympathy.

[jaydubz]

Guys like I said before the stats don't lie. You could believe whatever you want to but at the end of the day, teens are less experienced drivers for the simple reason they haven't been behind the wheel long enough.


Yeah I drive fast but my risk taking has dramatically declined from when I was under 20. As I get older I double and triple check the situation before hand.


Jaydubz, speed kills and in the wrong hands, it's even worse. An ms3 will accelerate a whole lot quicker than an '85 civic or even the average civic on the road right now. The mentality of the average teen in a fast car is to show off to his friends and 'beat' every other car off the line or from a roll or whatever... it's just a phase of growing up. Been there done that. I'd rather him/her try to to do that in a civic or corolla than something a lot quicker

But your is point taken, teens will take risks in any car and that is true to some degree but they may be less inclined to do so in something they know is slow.

However like others mentioned, there's more to it than that. I think parents should teach good driving skills and hammer the dangers of speeding home. Giving their kid a fast car isn't best way to go about this for obvious reasons.

For argument sakes I wonder how many driving related accidents or fatalities occur in other locations outside of the US such as Europe? In London my cousins had to wait till they were 17 for a permit and were given numerous courses mandated by the government before self driving permits were given. I think Young drivers need more course on driving and teh consequences, ie: a trip to the morgue. I am sure there would be some bleeding heart politician that would fight that claiming it is far too severe, but I bet that would save numerous live. So damn sad to see young life taken when the best years are ahead. Prom, Sex, birth of a child, buying a house, sex, sex and some more sex. hehe had to throw in some comic relief due to the seriousness of this thread.

[Ebruess]

I'm a 17 year old CB MS3 driver and I truly believe there are some teenage drivers THAT SHOULD NOT drive these fast cars. My first car was a 911 Turbo that I purchased with money from my stock account on my 16th Birthday. Then, I purchased my MS3 back at the end of October and this car is extremely too fast for most of my friends. I would NEVER let one of my friends get behind the wheel of a MS3 or any car of this caliber. There has to be restraint while driving this car on open highways.

[Bravnik]

I think you guys need to give LC some credit he is a 16 kid who is holding his own on a very opinionated forum and is bringing up some great points.

Posters like Bavnik seem to relish the fact that these kids were given a fast car and this some how led to their death. ****News Flash**** Even if those kids had been given a 85 honda civic hatch back they would probably still be dead! So are you going to argue that the honda had the potential for becoming fast and the parents should have considered this?!?! Get real!

I just love how someone who is probably in his mid 20 or lower can sit there and point the finger like that. If you want to blame the parents, blame them for not spending more time teaching them driving skills or spending more money on driving courses. Dont lump it all on just buying a car, how ignorant and misinformed of you!

If we want to talk about risks like betelgeuse had mentioned then look no further than this thread http://**********************/index.php?topic=92382.0 where forum members chronicle high speed risks. Maybe according to bravnik and Betelguese and others these were all 16 to 20 yr olds running amuck in their parental sourced MS3s. Stupidity takes all forms!

Jaydubs - I don't relesh in anything. I'm simply stateing that you don't give a 16year old a 240HP car to toy around in and expect them to be 100% responsable. There are thousands of peer pressure things that a 16 year old has to face every day. Parents don't need to be giving them more....

....Wow Nice car man, how fast does it go. My car is faster than you'rs lets race....I love fast cars they make me hot...Just one hit, it wont hurt you....Common pussy try it...etc.etc.etc.

There is just way more peer pressure at 16 then there is at even 20. Kids are Kids and 16 years old you have not even got your dick wet enough to know what sex is.

You see, us parents base our morals and ethics of our own experiences at that age. I was a very responsible child, worked, went to school, had good grades and was NEVER in trouble with the law. BUT I did things that I would never want my child to do and todays kids are a lot more crazy due to Media and TV.

But I degress. You can't teach a 16year old anything and you damn sure can't teach parenting skills over the Internet. I will say it again.....Do you honestly believe that the Mother and Father are not kicking themselves in the ass for buying their 17year old a MS3? I bet they really regret that decision. That's what all parents need to think about before buying their kids anything.

And yes anyone can kill themselves in any car, however, odds are he would not have chanced the pass in a Civic, Kia, Pinto etc. because he would not have had the confidence that a faster car brings to the driver. A driver is more apt to take the risk if they are overconfident in what their car or they can do. End of story.

For the record, I'm 42 with 2 kids.

[Red5_02]

I know my limits, and I still can have a fast car at 16.

How in the world at 16 do you know your limits on the road. You may have learned to drive with professional drivers but that basically means bullshit when you are on a public road with people who aren't. Swear up and down that you know how to drive a car, you do. But you can't convince anyone on here that with less than a year on your license you know anything about driving on public roads.


The fastest i have been was 110 on the 5 freeway avoiding side-swiped by a big rig. I drive no faster than 75-80 in free flowing traffic.

You talk about being responsible. How the hell is is going 110 on the freeway even remotely responsible. If you were my kid and I found out you did that I'd knock you in your friggin head.

[Akaveli]

How in the world at 16 do you know your limits on the road. You may have learned to drive with professional drivers but that basically means bullshit when you are on a public road with people who aren't. Swear up and down that you know how to drive a car, you do. But you can't convince anyone on here that with less than a year on your license you know anything about driving on public roads.



You talk about being responsible. How the hell is is going 110 on the freeway even remotely responsible. If you were my kid and I found out you did that I'd knock you in your friggin head.



+1
Lc_MS3 your pretty much proving everyones point for drivers at that age. As for your sake, do the speed limit instead of 110mph or 75 - 80mph on free flowing traffic and drive responsible.

[icespeed]

I read some of these posts and i have a hard time accepting that these are your guys' real feelings. The ignorance is overwhelming. Please tell me that you guys are just being the devil's advocate and e-hating because of such.

Please, for the love of all things natural and un-natural, tell me that these blabberings (if that's a word) and attacks on LC are just for shoes and giggles... just wanting to give the kid a hard time, fathering with him, etc.

Because seriously, if you guys truly believe these preachings you have "oh-so-mightedly" bestowed on this LC kid (and the others), then I feel really fathering bad for YOUR kids. I actually feel worse for your kids than I do for this kid that died or his parents. You guys are brainwashing your fathering kids and the fact of the matter is being 30 or 40 or 50, you still don't have a fathering clue. "Oh, I've driven longer so I know what I'm doing" mentality is a bunch horse shoe... not even bull shoe, HORSE SHOE. You should see how many fathering people I have to swerve around on a day to day because Yuppie dad is on the phone in his G35 or Soccer Mom is reaching over to read her book WHILE DRIVING.

Get off your high horses. Being 40 does not make your point of view automatically right. Saying all 16's year olds today shouldn't drive fast cars is as ignorant as me saying that all teens from the 80's are fathered up coke heads with pink spiked hair and nipple chains you could jump rope in.

Darn you beeswaxes really got to me. lol Hopefully, and I stress hopefully, you guys are just fathering with this kid. I'll gladly apologize if you guys come clean and stop messing with this kid.

[ericrapp]

Im a 16 year old MS3 owner, and just because you are 16 doesnt meen that u are going to kill everyone and everything, yea it was stupid for him to be driving fast, and i actually knew him very well. he was a close friend and was a really awesome person. Yea it was his mistake, not the cars. Pray for him, and his family
I see alot of mixed feelings on this and i guess it depends on where you stand. At 14 i was allowed have my parents volvo 144. A slow slow car with as it turned out excellent brakes and a well balanced chassis. a perfect starter in retrospect and i loved it. We had somegreat EMPTY back roads and my buds and i would challenge ourselves daily for YEARS I then bought a 72 dart 318 and first time i wound it up it scared me but i worked my into it. Getting to my point when i first puchased my speed3 i was scared to turn hard at full throttle but im ok now. Ok im 46 years old and have 4 children who drive and that has been my biggest fear of my life. I taught all of them about dynamics, vision(awareness of moving objects and immoveable ones)Developed their skills, take it past the limits,in a safe wide open space . im lucky The parents responsibility is to put a safe, aware and educated driver out there who fully respects the consequences of their actions that might and do affect innocents This a shameful incident on many levels. You youngsters, wisdom is derived from experience PLEASE DONT RUSH IT!

[Betelgeuse]

I read some of these posts and i have a hard time accepting that these are your guys' real feelings. The ignorance is overwhelming. Please tell me that you guys are just being the devil's advocate and e-hating because of such.

Please, for the love of all things natural and un-natural, tell me that these blabberings (if that's a word) and attacks on LC are just for shits and giggles... just wanting to give the kid a hard time, fucking with him, etc.

Because seriously, if you guys truly believe these preachings you have "oh-so-mightedly" bestowed on this LC kid (and the others), then I feel really fucking bad for YOUR kids. I actually feel worse for your kids than I do for this kid that died or his parents. You guys are brainwashing your fucking kids and the fact of the matter is being 30 or 40 or 50, you still don't have a fucking clue. "Oh, I've driven longer so I know what I'm doing" mentality is a bunch horse shit... not even bull shit, HORSE SHIT. You should see how many fucking people I have to swerve around on a day to day because Yuppie dad is on the phone in his G35 or Soccer Mom is reaching over to read her book WHILE DRIVING.

Get off your high horses. Being 40 does not make your point of view automatically right. Saying all 16's year olds today shouldn't drive fast cars is as ignorant as me saying that all teens from the 80's are fucked up coke heads with pink spiked hair and nipple chains you could jump rope in.

Damn you bitches really got to me. lol Hopefully, and I stress hopefully, you guys are just fucking with this kid. I'll gladly apologize if you guys come clean and stop messing with this kid.

^^My advice to you, wear a condom at all times or just get a vasectomy (assuming you're male). Also if you're gonna use foul language and act all badass at least try to back up your mouth with some facts. Your post isn't worth a detailed response.

[FrankDiscussion]

Time to toss my 2 cents in. I'm 42 years old and my first car was a 1975 Chevy Vega, so I had a tough time even keeping up with the speed limit. Been driving since I was 16 and never been in a accident.

My daughter is 15 months old, if it were up to me she wouldn't be in a car seat, she would be encased in a titanium cocoon in the rear seat. The levels of idiocy and incompetence displayed on the roads simply amaze me at time, and the statistics don't lie, teenagers are simply more likely to be involved in a fatal crash. Doesn't justify the generalization that all teenagers can't drive, plenty of idiots out there to go around. My sympathies to all involved.

[icespeed]

^^My advice to you, wear a condom at all times or just get a vasectomy (assuming you're male). Also if you're gonna use foul language and act all badass at least try to back up your mouth with some facts. Your post isn't worth a detailed response.

Would my opinion warrant consideration if I didn't use foul language? I can go back and clean it up if you'd like :)

And what facts would you like me to throw out? The internet is at my disposal. I can pull statistics until the cows come home.

Fact: Coke was a HUGE problem in the 80's (hence Nancy's D.A.R.E.)

Fact: A member of the band Poison (need I say more?) had pink hair.

Fact: People above the age of 18 get in fatal car accidents.

Strike-through fact. This is more of an observation and can be construed as Opinion:
People of all ages do stupid Shtuff while behind the steering wheel. I don't have tangible proof to support this, as I don't video tape my driving. The other day my mom and I were driving home and the lady next to us, probably in her late 30's was playing with her laptop, while driving. The laptop was sandwiched between her and the steering wheel.

Fact: The G35 is a sports car that has a ranged msrp of ~ $35,000.00 U.S. Dollars.
Assumption: I assume that atleast 1 "Yuppie" drives a G35 in this world.
Assumption: I assume that atleast 1 "Yuppie" has a child/children.

Fact: There are mothers out there that take their kids to soccer practice.
Assumption: They drive minivans and are termed "soccer moms".

Fact: I am 29 years old.
Fact: I have been driving "legally" since 1993.
Fact: All people die.
Fact: This kid that died did so in a MS3
Fact: The MS3 is a FWD car

What other facts, sir?

Perhaps definitions, then? Taken from Webster's Dictionary online (www.m-w.com)
Fuck: Main Entry: 1fuck
Pronunciation: \ˈfək\
Function: verb
Etymology: akin to Dutch fokken to breed (cattle), Swedish dialect fókka to copulate
Date: circa 1503
intransitive verb
1usually obscene : copulate
2usually vulgar : mess 3 —used with with
transitive verb
1usually obscene : to engage in coitus with —sometimes used interjectionally with an object (as a personal or reflexive pronoun) to express anger, contempt, or disgust
2usually vulgar : to deal with unfairly or harshly : cheat screw

Shit:Main Entry: 1shit
Pronunciation: \ˈshit, interjectionally also ˈshē-ət\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English *shit, from Old English scite; akin to Old English -scītan to defecate
Date: circa 1526
1usually vulgar : feces
2usually vulgar : an act of defecation
3usually vulgar : nonsense crap
4usually vulgar : any of several intoxicating or narcotic drugs; especially : heroin
5usually vulgar : damn 2
6usually vulgar : a worthless, offensive, or detestable person
7usually vulgar a—used as an interjection b—used as an intensive usually with the
— shit·ty \ˈshi-tē\ adjective usually vulgar

bullshit:Main Entry: 1bull·shit
Pronunciation: \ˈbu̇l-ˌshit also ˈbəl-\
Function: noun
Etymology: 1bull & 6bull
Date: 1914
usually vulgar : nonsense; especially : foolish insolent talk

As for the condom comment: LOL

So, I have stated "facts" for you.... perhaps you can return the favor and post a "detailed response" as you so politely refused before. :)

[CX-7owner]

I had my first car, it was an S40 that I flipped over on the freeway going at speeds of over 70-75MPH, and the CHP automatically thought I was going 90MPH-100MPH, etc.. because I was so "young". I explained what happened and they still didn't believe me, the car lost control because of a blow-out, not excessive speed, if I was going that fast the results would have been way worse.
So I hate people who put all teenagers in the same category as a reckless endangerment to society.
I'm sure if it was an MSP driver you all knew, or MS3 driver that was speeding and lost control you would all be sobbing saying how great of a person they we're etc.. and how they didn't deserve it, but if you all didn't know them from a hole in the ground, and they we're relatively young, oh FUCK them, he must have been a stupid SOB, speeding on public roads, FUCK the parents too, although I don't really know them, FUCK them too, they're stupid, and I've never met them before in my life.

[bbychvz]

regardless, it's still a shame

X2 it really sucks

[Betelgeuse]

Would my opinion warrant consideration if I didn't use foul language? I can go back and clean it up if you'd like :)

And what facts would you like me to throw out? The internet is at my disposal. I can pull statistics until the cows come home.

Fact: Coke was a HUGE problem in the 80's (hence Nancy's D.A.R.E.)

Fact: A member of the band Poison (need I say more?) had pink hair.

Fact: People above the age of 18 get in fatal car accidents.

Strike-through fact. This is more of an observation and can be construed as Opinion:
People of all ages do stupid Shtuff while behind the steering wheel. I don't have tangible proof to support this, as I don't video tape my driving. The other day my mom and I were driving home and the lady next to us, probably in her late 30's was playing with her laptop, while driving. The laptop was sandwiched between her and the steering wheel.



Jeez, another post and nothing said. Didn't mean to make you work hard.

Are you denying the most important fact already cited that teenagers in a certain age group are more likely to get into accidents? If you are, post those facts - those are what I'm looking for.

http://www.rmiia.org/Auto/Teens/Teen_Driving_Statistics.htm

After you do that we can continue.

[meha11]

Here’s my $.02

When i passed my motorcycle test in the UK i was still under 21. The government restricted all u21's with full motorcycle entitlement to 33hp. This meant you could still have any bike but it then had to be restricted to 33hp for 1 year- This was a direct result to kids killing themselves on fireblades and such.

With today’s cars being very quick i feel under 18's should be restricted in a similar way (16 is too young to drive anyway but thats another discussion).
Teenagers statistically do stupid things, yes they can do stupid things in a slow car too (i admit i was one of those) but the potential to cause harm/damage to themselves and others is reduced if speed is lowered.

I’m in my 30’s now and I look back, at the time I thought I was a great driver, now with hindsight I am just happy I made it. My first car had about 45bhp, it was far from a sports car but I would insist on driving it like one.

My wife is now pregnant with our first child, when he/she is 16 they are getting an old bronco. I have new found sorrow for the parents due to their loss, but I consider buying their kid a hot hatch to be a mistake.

[Betelgeuse]

I had my first car, it was an S40 that I flipped over on the freeway going at speeds of over 70-75MPH, and the CHP automatically thought I was going 90MPH-100MPH, etc.. because I was so "young". I explained what happened and they still didn't believe me, the car lost control because of a blow-out, not excessive speed, if I was going that fast the results would have been way worse.
So I hate people who put all teenagers in the same category as a reckless endangerment to society.
I'm sure if it was an MSP driver you all knew, or MS3 driver that was speeding and lost control you would all be sobbing saying how great of a person they we're etc.. and how they didn't deserve it, but if you all didn't know them from a hole in the ground, and they we're relatively young, oh FUCK them, he must have been a stupid SOB, speeding on public roads, FUCK the parents too, although I don't really know them, FUCK them too, they're stupid, and I've never met them before in my life.

It's not people that are putting teens in that category, it's the statistics. And it's already been said that there are exceptions. Also were not talking about endangerment in general terms like you put it. We're specifically talking about teen drivers.

[icespeed]

Jeez, another post and nothing said. Didn't mean to make you work hard.

lol, I appreciate your concern.



Are you denying the most important fact already made that teenagers in a certain age group are more likely to get into accidents? If you are, post those facts - those are what I'm looking for.

http://www.rmiia.org/Auto/Teens/Teen_Driving_Statistics.htm

After you do that we can continue.

I suppose I could argue symantics. Having taken many years of Probability and Statistics and even occasionally teaching stats, I'm sure I could find loopholes and I'm sure we could interperet those results very differently. But, at the end of the day, nothing more would be accomplished.

So, no, I'm not denying those stats. Actually, if you review my posts I never once stated the contrary. But I will fight for LC all day long if I have to. I don't even know this kid. As far as I know, I've never met him, nor ever posted in the same thread as him. But I find it dumbfounding that generalizations can be deduced from these stats and people can say with 100% certainty that all 16 year olds shouldn't drive fast cars because they don't know what they're doing. That was the argument.

I will stand by my conviction that....


Saying all 16's year olds today shouldn't drive fast cars is as ignorant as me saying that all teens from the 80's are fathered up coke heads with pink spiked hair and nipple chains you could jump rope in.

[MakeMeGoFast]

Well to me the bottom line is. The kid sucked at driving, he would have probably done the same in a stock non turbo protege.

This kid was just an ass.

The debate weather or not kids should have fast cars or not will go on forever. there are responsible ones and then there are ones like this kid.

[CX-7owner]

It's not people that are putting teens in that category, it's the statistics. And it's already been said that there are exceptions. Also were not talking about endangerment in general terms like you put it. We're specifically talking about teen drivers.

Statistics do not say all teen drivers are dangerous on the road, so don't say that, and then there are a Just few exceptions because that isn't true either.

Regardless if most of you all knew this teen driver this thread would have a different tune.

[Betelgeuse]

lol, I appreciate your concern.



I suppose I could argue symantics. Having taken many years of Probability and Statistics and even occasionally teaching stats, I'm sure I could find loopholes and I'm sure we could interperet those results very differently. But, at the end of the day, nothing more would be accomplished.

So, no, I'm not denying those stats. Actually, if you review my posts I never once stated the contrary. But I will fight for LC all day long if I have to. I don't even know this kid. As far as I know, I've never met him, nor ever posted in the same thread as him. But I find it dumbfounding that generalizations can be deduced from these stats and people can say with 100% certainty that all 16 year olds shouldn't drive fast cars because they don't know what they're doing. That was the argument.

I will stand by my conviction that....

How is anyone to know who should and who shouldn't? Yeah a parent might have an idea about their kid's abilities but it's hard to tell without the kid actually getting in a car and driving . The fact is, the trend says they're more likely to get into an accident. So what's the prudent thing to do? Ignore the trend? Or embrace it?

[Betelgeuse]

Statistics do not say all teen drivers are dangerous on the road, so don't say that, and then there are a Just few exceptions because that isn't true either.

Regardless if most of you all knew this teen driver this thread would have a different tune.

You are correct and I could've stated my post better but the fact is they're more likely to get into accidents.

Yeah if I knew him I'd feel more pity, no doubt, but it wouldn't change my stance one bit.

[lc_MS3]

+1

LOL! While there are exceptions, teens shouldn't be given fast cars so early. I see them here taking unnecessary risks all the time. Your last statement is so true - many people just don't consider the possible consequences of the dumb things they do until something happens. If the other car wasn't a hummer, those other people probably would've been killed as well and what's sad is it could've been us or one of our friends or relatives.

Ic_MS3:

The fact that you take offense to the comments here shows your immaturity.
You need to accept the fact that you're in a age-group that statistically are more likely to wreck or be killed in a fast car. Now, like I said above, there are always exceptions and you might be one of them - good for you. But the stats don't lie.

What I took offense to is that I am be stereotyped as a stupid kid who is on drugs or drinks, and am going to hurt people when I drive. And you are doing that ONLY because
some other teenage kid, who did fall into that category, crashed an killed people. (obviously not talking about this incident)


I think you guys need to give LC some credit he is a 16 kid who is holding his own on a very opinionated forum and is bringing up some great points.

Posters like Bavnik seem to relish the fact that these kids were given a fast car and this some how led to their death. ****News Flash**** Even if those kids had been given a 85 honda civic hatch back they would probably still be dead! So are you going to argue that the honda had the potential for becoming fast and the parents should have considered this?!?! Get real!

I just love how someone who is probably in his mid 20 or lower can sit there and point the finger like that. If you want to blame the parents, blame them for not spending more time teaching them driving skills or spending more money on driving courses. Dont lump it all on just buying a car, how ignorant and misinformed of you!

If we want to talk about risks like betelgeuse had mentioned then look no further than this thread http://**********************/index.php?topic=92382.0 where forum members chronicle high speed risks. Maybe according to bravnik and Betelguese and others these were all 16 to 20 yr olds running amuck in their parental sourced MS3s. Stupidity takes all forms!

This is all I was trying to say. The kid made a bad move. I fail to see how him driving a Mazda had anything to do with that.



You talk about being responsible. How the hell is is going 110 on the freeway even remotely responsible. If you were my kid and I found out you did that I'd knock you in your friggin head.

For your information, I was with my dad driving home from San Fran. on the 5 freeway i was in the left lane travailing 75 when a big rig I was passing decided he was gonna change lanes into me. What would you do? Lock up the brakes or speed up to save your life. If you would have been so kind to read the part of that line that said I WAS AVOIDING BEING SIDE-SWIPED, maybe you could have seen what i meant. I in no way am saying that i was cruising at 110. It was a spike that quickly came back down to 75.


Jeez, another post and nothing said. Didn't mean to make you work hard.

Are you denying the most important fact already cited that teenagers in a certain age group are more likely to get into accidents? If you are, post those facts - those are what I'm looking for.

http://www.rmiia.org/Auto/Teens/Teen_Driving_Statistics.htm

After you do that we can continue.

Could you please show me the fact on that site that shows, or displays of any link between the car the kids were driving, and the number of crashes?


Well to me the bottom line is. The kid sucked at driving, he would have probably done the same in a stock non turbo protege.

This kid was just an ass.

The debate weather or not kids should have fast cars or not will go on forever. there are responsible ones and then there are ones like this kid.

Once again all I was trying to say.
Thanks to those on here who see I am not unreasonable in what I am saying And to those who continue to fight me, why don't you leave parenting YOUR OWN kids to yourself, and my parents parenting to THEM SELF.

[icespeed]

How is anyone to know who should and who shouldn't? Yeah a parent might have an idea about their kid's abilities but it's hard to tell without the kid actually getting in a car and driving . The fact is, the trend says they're more likely to get into an accident. So what's the prudent thing to do? Ignore the trend? Or embrace it?

And there inlies the real crux of the matter. If we ignore the trends, and they continue (whether or not they deviate by plus or minus 3% from year to year is irrelevant), then we have a status quo where kids are getting killed (and possibly taking out "innocent" people as well). If we embrace the trends teens will be penalized for a right that we have deemed acceptable for them at their age. Penalties include higher insurance rates (based on stats) and a general disregard for the individual teen because of the generalizations. The other main point is because of embracing the trends, teens have been stereotyped, when included in the same sentence as the words "car" and "driving".

The other thing to consider is what else happens when society embraces these trends? The stats go down. I'm sorry, but they will never hit 0%. As long as there are cars, people will die in them.

On the completely opposite side of the spectrum, if we ignore the trends, they will never hit 100%. As long as there are teenagers, there will be atleast one who is deemed "responsible" who does not become another statistic.

As far as which to choose? I don't think I am qualified to answer that. I also firmly believe that no one else on this planet is qualified either.

I have my opinions on it though. However I will refrain, because I know I will open a pandoras box of Darwinism and I'd rather not insult any of you in that manner.

[Witchdoktor]

I hate to say it, but the kid gets the darwin award... this shit is NOT TV and it's NOT video games... and worse yet, it's his parent's fault for buying a kid such a fast car... kids are unpredictable and need to stay driving old slow ass cars so that they can learn how to drive a car properly...

no, this kid was predictable and the parents still bought him the car. stupid fucks, the victims should sue the parents.

[Witchdoktor]

I haven't read all 6 pages but give me cliffs on how the topic went to 80s rock band poison

[icespeed]

I haven't read all 6 pages but give me cliffs on how the topic went to 80s rock band poison

lol! sure... I made the statement:
Saying all 16's year olds today shouldn't drive fast cars is as ignorant as me saying that all teens from the 80's are fathered up coke heads with pink spiked hair and nipple chains you could jump rope in.

Another person asked for facts from that particular post (this quote was only a portion of that whole post). And so I brought up Poison as a fact that there were people from the 80's with pink hair. lol.

[lc_MS3]

no, this kid was predictable and the parents still bought him the car. stupid fucks, the victims should sue the parents.

Why? Did the parents make the stupid decision to cross the double yellow? If he was stupid enough to do it in a Mazda, he would have done it in anything he was in. The fact he was in a Speed3 should have nothing to do with the accident.

[Witchdoktor]

a 17 year old kid who drives like a madman and the parents buy him a 300hp car. the parents are just as wreckless as the kid.

[icespeed]

lc, don't get so riled up... unfortunately, people need someone to blame. It makes it easier to deal with if someone pays for mistakes (whether they are their own mistakes or not). The kid is dead, so society can't call for justice against him. Society then turns their attention to the parents.

"Wait, what's that? His dad is a race car driver? Really? Well, the Parents must be held accountable then. His dad must be the one who taught him that. Break out the nousse boys, or perhaps some wood and a stake"
/sarcasm

I guess it makes it easier to sleep at night, under the false pretense that justice has been served and things like this won't happen to me and my family. NIMB!

[CantCMe]

Why? Did the parents make the stupid decision to cross the double yellow? If he was stupid enough to do it in a Mazda, he would have done it in anything he was in. The fact he was in a Speed3 should have nothing to do with the accident.

I believe if the parents thought ever for a split second that this tragity could happen then they should have NOT bought them a car period. My son will be buying his own car when he's old enough to drive. I remember how I used to drive my GT Mustangs when I was 16-17 years old. Like a typical teenager. And believe me, I purchased all of them WITHOUT my parents help, 'cuz if it was up to them I would have been catching the bus everywhere I went.

But do I blame the parents 100%? No, but they didn't prevent this from happening either. I think if they had a slower car they STILL would have tried crazy stuff with it.

I still pray for the family for their loss, because when it's all said and done, that was someone's children that loss their life because of a "mistake in judgement."

[Betelgeuse]

And there inlies the real crux of the matter. If we ignore the trends, and they continue (whether or not they deviate by plus or minus 3% from year to year is irrelevant), then we have a status quo where kids are getting killed (and possibly taking out "innocent" people as well). If we embrace the trends teens will be penalized for a right that we have deemed acceptable for them at their age. Penalties include higher insurance rates (based on stats) and a general disregard for the individual teen because of the generalizations. The other main point is because of embracing the trends, teens have been stereotyped, when included in the same sentence as the words "car" and "driving".

The other thing to consider is what else happens when society embraces these trends? The stats go down. I'm sorry, but they will never hit 0%. As long as there are cars, people will die in them.

On the completely opposite side of the spectrum, if we ignore the trends, they will never hit 100%. As long as there are teenagers, there will be atleast one who is deemed "responsible" who does not become another statistic.

As far as which to choose? I don't think I am qualified to answer that. I also firmly believe that no one else on this planet is qualified either.

I have my opinions on it though. However I will refrain, because I know I will open a pandoras box of Darwinism and I'd rather not insult any of you in that manner.

What are you saying then? If you don't have a stance why all the drama?

Personally I think it's better to embrace it and possibly save some lives. Teens being penalized, stereotyped or having to pay higher insurance seems like an acceptable outcome given the big picture.

[lc_MS3]

a 17 year old kid who drives like a madman and the parents buy him a 300hp car. the parents are just as wreckless as the kid.

MS3 is NOT a 300hp car.
I don't mean to get riled up but i don't like being categorized. And I do NOT believe that my parents are "IDIOTS" for buying me a affordable sports compact car. Its not a Porsche we are talking about, it is a small sporty Mazda, and to say that I should NOT have a car like this is irritating and ignorant.

[orlandomsp]

Are you denying the most important fact already cited that teenagers in a certain age group are more likely to get into accidents? If you are, post those facts - those are what I'm looking for.

http://www.rmiia.org/Auto/Teens/Teen_Driving_Statistics.htm

After you do that we can continue.

Yeah, the statistics say that drivers between 15-20 are more likely to be involved in a fatal crash, but nowhere does it say that the caliber of the car has anything to do with it. The only reason it would be irresponsible for a parent to buy a 1st time driver a brand new/expensive/fast car is that chances are that it'll end up totaled because of inexperience.

I've said it before and I'll say it again the car has nothing to do with it. If you're going to do something stupid in a speed3 you're gonna do it in a P.O.S '85 or '91 civic. This kid went into oncoming traffic to pass another car car, the car has nothing to do with it.

Just for the record, my 1st car was a '95 Geo Prism.

[lc_MS3]

I believe if the parents thought ever for a split second that this tragity could happen then they should have NOT bought them a car period. My son will be buying his own car when he's old enough to drive. I remember how I used to drive my GT Mustangs when I was 16-17 years old. Like a typical teenager. And believe me, I purchased all of them WITHOUT my parents help, 'cuz if it was up to them I would have been catching the bus everywhere I went.

But do I blame the parents 100%? No, but they didn't prevent this from happening either. I think if they had a slower car they STILL would have tried crazy stuff with it.

I still pray for the family for their loss, because when it's all said and done, that was someone's children that loss their life because of a "mistake in judgement."

A mistake by the teen not the car.

[lc_MS3]

Yeah, the statistics say that drivers between 15-20 are more likely to be involved in a fatal crash, but nowhere does it say that the caliber of the car has anything to do with it. The only reason it would be irresponsible for a parent to buy a 1st time driver a brand new/expensive/fast car is that chances are that it'll end up totaled because of inexperience.

I've said it before and I'll say it again the car has nothing to do with it. If you're going to do something stupid in a speed3 you're gonna do it in a P.O.S '85 or '91 civic. This kid went into oncoming traffic to pass another car car, the car has nothing to do with it.

Just for the record, my 1st car was a '95 Geo Prism.

You are correct, but the MS3 is NOT an EXPENSIVE car. It is quite affordable for most kids.

[Betelgeuse]

MS3 is NOT a 300hp car.
I don't mean to get riled up but i don't like being categorized. And I do NOT believe that my parents are "IDIOTS" for buying me a affordable sports compact car. Its not a Porsche we are talking about, it is a small sporty Mazda, and to say that I should NOT have a car like this is irritating and ignorant.


No it's not a 300hp one, it's only a 263 hp /280 tq one :rolleyes:

People (but more so teens) would be more tempted to take chances in a fast car. If he had a civic, first off, he probably wouldn't be showing it off and secondly he wouldn't try to pass several cars at once. He used poor judgment and failed. Teens tend to you use poor judgment more and so get into a lot more accidents.

Also, had it been a slower car and he did indeed try to pass anyway, the speed difference might've made the accident a survivable one.

[Witchdoktor]

MS3 is NOT a 300hp car.
I don't mean to get riled up but i don't like being categorized. And I do NOT believe that my parents are "IDIOTS" for buying me a affordable sports compact car. Its not a Porsche we are talking about, it is a small sporty Mazda, and to say that I should NOT have a car like this is irritating and ignorant.

“…We both talked to him, and … I told him ‘My dad doesn’t like me riding with you because the way you drive, and he’s afraid you’re either going to kill someone one day or kill yourself in an accident, and today it happens,” said Jon Herbert’s friend Mike Long. “It’s just weird how things happen like that sometimes.”


this kid was an accident waiting to happen and people knew it

[Betelgeuse]

Yeah, the statistics say that drivers between 15-20 are more likely to be involved in a fatal crash, but nowhere does it say that the caliber of the car has anything to do with it. The only reason it would be irresponsible for a parent to buy a 1st time driver a brand new/expensive/fast car is that chances are that it'll end up totaled because of inexperience.

I've said it before and I'll say it again the car has nothing to do with it. If you're going to do something stupid in a speed3 you're gonna do it in a P.O.S '85 or '91 civic. This kid went into oncoming traffic to pass another car car, the car has nothing to do with it.

Just for the record, my 1st car was a '95 Geo Prism.

Yes but I'm sure he thought he would make it BECAUSE of the speed of the car. The type of car will have an affect on the type of risks AND the survivability of the accident.

[orlandomsp]

You are correct, but the MS3 is NOT an EXPENSIVE car. It is quite affordable for most kids.

I didn't mean to say that the ms3 was an "expensive" car, hell different people have different ideas about what is expensive. I was just trying to get my point across.

[Witchdoktor]

Yes but I'm sure he thought he would make it BECAUSE of the speed of the car. The type of car will have an affect on the type of risks AND the survivability of the accident.


A+

[orlandomsp]

Also, had it been a slower car and he did indeed try to pass anyway, the speed difference might've made the accident a survivable one.

I don't see how, a pos slow car barreling down the highway will do the same amount of damage as the speed3.


this kid was an accident waiting to happen and people knew it

Exactly! The car isn't at fault He shouldn't have been driving in the 1st place.

[Witchdoktor]

You are correct, but the MS3 is NOT an EXPENSIVE car. It is quite affordable for most kids.

a 17 yr old can afford a MS3? and cover the car insurance in his name? and pay rent? electric? water?

mcdonald's pays that good these days?

[icespeed]

What are you saying then? If you don't have a stance why all the drama?

Personally I think it's better to embrace it and possibly save some lives. Teens being penalized, stereotyped or having to pay higher insurance seems like an acceptable outcome given the big picture.

Ok, if you insist....

Survival of the fittest. Deny the trends. Look at the numbers and understand that there is room for interperetations. For example: taken from the website you posted (http://www.rmiia.org/Auto/Teens/Teen_Driving_Statistics.htm):

"16-year-olds are three times more likely to die in a motor vehicle crash than the average of all drivers."

That word "average" is a very important word. It doesn't say that they are three times more likely to die than all others. Hell for all I know, from this specific line, 43 year olds die more often than 16 year olds in a car crash. Interperetation is vital.

To me? yeah it sucks this kid died. It sucked last year when a guy from our car club down here died. It sucks everytime that someone dies. Regardless of reckless behaviour, old age, over dose, heart attack.. .anything. But, such is life. Who am I to say that someone deserves death? Who am I to say that someone deserves life? It is what it is. People die. Regarless of "what-could-have-beens", the fact remains that people die. So be it. If we completely abolished teenagers driving, teenagers would still die in car accidents. Whether they did so illegally, or whether they were in the car with an adult driving, it changes nothing... .everyone dies.

I don't think I'm righteous enough to toot my horn and say that I have the power to save another person's life. I'm not a doctor. I don't have a self-satisfying urge to preach to everyone about what they should and should not do, based on the statistics that other people have presented me with.

The individual is, and has always been, more important to me. You can talk with an individual, know them, care for them, help them understand that death comes in ten thousand forms, not just from driving. Can I save them? I'm sorry, but that's not my purpose. Does it hurt when someone I know/care for dies? Sure it does. I'm human. But it doesn't change the fact that they died. So why cry over spilled milk? Therefore, hey, shoe happens. What's done is done.

Survival of the fittest.

[Kurt07]

The only people I truly feel sorry for is the 12 year old and the people in the H2.

[lc_MS3]

No it's not a 300hp one, it's only a 263 hp /280 tq one :rolleyes:

People (but more so teens) would be more tempted to take chances in a fast car. If he had a civic, first off, he probably wouldn't be showing it off and secondly he wouldn't try to pass several cars at once. He used poor judgment and failed. Teens tend to you use poor judgment more and so get into a lot more accidents.

Also, had it been a slower car and he did indeed try to pass anyway, the speed difference might've made the accident a survivable one.


Just a question here, how old are you? Being in High School right now, I have many friends with different kinds of cars. And what I have seen is that most of the stupid ones drive civics, accords, and other "safer slower cars". I see them do stupid shit that I would never do (pass people in the wrong lane ect.) so how does me having 260hp have anything to do with me trying to make that same pass or not?

[Betelgeuse]

I don't see how, a pos slow car barreling down the highway will do the same amount of damage as the speed3. .

It's the difference in speed. A POS slow car can't accelerate that fast. Who knows the hummer might've had more time to react or slow down. Have you driven a speed3 at all esp on the highway? If you haven't, you're in for a surprise. It can accelerate to 100mph in the blink of an eye.

[orlandomsp]

so how does me having 260hp have anything to do with me trying to make that same pass or not?

Assumptions....

[Betelgeuse]

Just a question here, how old are you? Being in High School right now, I have many friends with different kinds of cars. And what I have seen is that most of the stupid ones drive civics, accords, and other "safer slower cars". I see them do stupid shit that I would never do (pass people in the wrong lane ect.) so how does me having 260hp have anything to do with me trying to make that same pass or not?

It's not the passing in itself that kills, it's the speed (or actually the difference in speed), plain and simple. I'm 34. The slower you go the more control you have.

[Witchdoktor]

lc - stop taking this personal. we're attacking the kid's parents who knew their kid was a nutcase behind the wheel of a car and still bought him a MS3.

[orlandomsp]

It's the difference in speed. A POS slow car can't accelerate that fast. Who knows the hummer might've had more time to react or slow down. Have you driven a speed3 at all esp on the highway? If you haven't, you're in for a surprise. It can accelerate to 100mph in the blink of an eye.

I haven't driven a speed3 on the highway, so I'll have to take your word on that. My comments are based on the assumption that the kid didn't accelerate from 70 to 100 or 110 just to pass another car.

[SeminoleMan]

Having a "fast" car as a 1st car has nothing to do with it. I disagree. Having a fast car might cause an inexperieced driver to think "I can pass this car or cover this distance in time" where having a dead slow car would probably force them to use their brains rather than their right foot. In the hands of a relatively inexperienced driver, a fast car is bad news.

As a parent, I would never buy my kid a fast car. If he ever saved up enough money to buy a fast car, as long as he was living in my house I would do everything possible to make sure he couldn't afford it. That means charging rent, making them pay for insurance...whatever it took to MAKE it unaffordable. In the long run, it's in their best interest.

I know if I had a fast car when I was younger I'd be dead by now. Thank god for my 87 Pulsar NX back in 92 - having that sled helped me learn patience and better judgement cause it could hardly get out of it's own way.

[lc_MS3]

a 17 yr old can afford a MS3? and cover the car insurance in his name? and pay rent? electric? water?

mcdonald's pays that good these days?

Maybe it is just me, but am I the only one that actually reads what the other person has said BEFORE I say something contradictory?

As stated previously I pay HALF OF MY CAR PAYMENT. I don't pay rent I live with my parents. In California they will not let me put a car in my own name. It is under my parents insurance. And how we take care of our insurance is none of your business. But yes, a $22k-$24k MS3 SPORT is affordable for me and many of my friends if they decided they wanted one. But once again the car was not to blame in the accident, nor were the parent. THE KID MADE A BAD MOVE. I do not feel that that should make it so that I "shouldn't have a car of this caliper". What if the kid was in a GTI? Would you have said the same thing? The two cars are in the same class.

[lc_MS3]

lc - stop taking this personal. we're attacking the kid's parents who knew their kid was a nutcase behind the wheel of a car and still bought him a MS3.

PARENTS are not at fault. For all you know the kid bought the car himself.

[icespeed]

lc - stop taking this personal. we're attacking the kid's parents who knew their kid was a nutcase behind the wheel of a car and still bought him a MS3.

in that regard, i think the parents are paying enough for it. they have to live with the knowledge that two of their kids are gone because of something they could've avoided.

However, I still don't blame them. They were not the ones who floored the gas pedal, swirved into oncoming traffic and hit a hummer.

And it doesn't matter if it's an MS3 or a Geo Metro. 100mph is still 100mph.

[lc_MS3]

It's not the passing in itself that kills, it's the speed (or actually the difference in speed), plain and simple. I'm 34. The slower you go the more control you have.

so you are saying that a HEAD on collision at 70 and 70 s not as deadly as one at 80 and 80?
If in both cases someone dies, what is the difference?

[Betelgeuse]

I haven't driven a speed3 on the highway, so I'll have to take your word on that. My comments are based on the assumption that the kid didn't accelerate from 70 to 100 or 110 just to pass another car.


From the article:


"According to a Cornelius Police Department press release, "Witnesses reported that the 2008 Mazda was traveling east on Jetton and attempted to pass a third vehicle, also traveling east, in the westbound lane against the flow of traffic."



I've seen the pics on another forum and the car is completely mangled. Looks like a tried to pass 3 cars and couldn't make. My guess - triple digit speeds or very close to it.

[CHICO2003]

his parents will get no pity from me... in fact, I want to shoot them for being such idiots in spoiling their kid in buying him a nice fast ass car leaving the open potential that it could hurt/kill people

Haven't read past the 1st page so I'm sure this has been beaten to... nevermind.

All I know is... that's pretty cold. The parents lose BOTH of their sons and you have NO pity for them??? Hopefully, deep down, that's not true. Because even if one subscribes to your idea that they got what they deserve by giving their 17 year old son a fast car... what about the 12 year old? Did he deserve his fate as well?

Simple fact of that matter is... they could have suffered the same fate in a lesser vehicle. While I agree a 17 year old has no business having a car like this, if someone is reckless enough, they'll find a way to die.. even in a slow ass pos. In fact, one could argue this car was safer (in most cases) than some of the more typical cars 17 year olds drive.. you know, the 20 year old beaters with no airbags, no abs and broken seatbelts.

All I know is.. this is really sad. To not have sympathy for the parents is to not be human.

[lc_MS3]

Haven't read past the 1st page so I'm sure this has been beaten to... nevermind.

All I know is... that's pretty cold. The parents lose BOTH of their sons and you have NO pity for them??? Hopefully, deep down, that's not true. Because even if one subscribes to your idea that they got what they deserve by giving their 17 year old son a fast car... what about the 12 year old? Did he deserve his fate as well?

Simple fact of that matter is... they could have suffered the same fate in a lesser vehicle. While I agree a 17 year old has no business having a car like this, if someone is reckless enough, they'll find a way to die.. even in a slow ass pos. In fact, one could argue this car was safer (in most cases) than some of the more typical cars 17 year olds drive.. you know, the 20 year old beaters with no airbags, no abs and broken seatbelts.

All I know is.. this is really sad. To not have sympathy for the parents is to not be human.

My prayers are with both families, but once again, to say "a 17 year old has no business having a car like this" is ridiculous. IT IS A SMALL SPORTS COMPACT CAR THAT IS AFFORDABLE TO MOST TEENAGERS AND THEIR FAMILIES. IT IS NO LAMBO, PORSCHE, OR FERRARI. IT IS SIMILAR TO GTI'S OR R32'S WHICH 2-3 YEARS AGO WAS THE HOT CAR FOR ANY TEEN.

[Betelgeuse]

so you are saying that a HEAD on collision at 70 and 70 s not as deadly as one at 80 and 80?
If in both cases someone dies, what is the difference?

Well in the above scenario, there's hardly a difference but....

You can't just assume the other car is traveling at the same speed. It's very likely the h2 was moving a lot slower. 40 and 40 or even 50 and 50 is more survivable than 90 and 50, wouldn't you agree?

[lc_MS3]

Well in the above scenario, there's hardly a difference but....

You can't just assume the other car is traveling at the same speed. It's very likely the h2 was moving a lot slower. 40 and 40 or even 50 and 50 is more survivable than 90 and 50, wouldn't you agree?

We have no way of knowing. I mean really, should we all star making assumptions hear? Well then I Assume that the H2 was also doing 100 as someone else assumed the Speed3 to be driving. I am aware this makes no sense and this is my point. We don't know what the H2 was travailing at and we might never BUT to blame the parents is ridiculous.

[Witchdoktor]

Well in the above scenario, there's hardly a difference but....

You can't just assume the other car is traveling at the same speed. It's very likely the h2 was moving a lot slower. 40 and 40 or even 50 and 50 is more survivable than 90 and 50, wouldn't you agree?

if they survived what kind of recovery would there be, quadriplegic?

terrible what happened to the people in the H2. hopefully they make full recoveries.

[Betelgeuse]

My prayers are with both families, but once again, to say "a 17 year old has no business having a car like this" is ridiculous. IT IS A SMALL SPORTS COMPACT CAR THAT IS AFFORDABLE TO MOST TEENAGERS AND THEIR FAMILIES. IT IS NO LAMBO, PORSCHE, OR FERRARI. IT IS SIMILAR TO GTI'S OR R32'S WHICH 2-3 YEARS AGO WAS THE HOT CAR FOR ANY TEEN.


hahaha, there ain't no talking to you. But I was once your age so I totally understand. When you get older, you'll more than likely have a different outlook on things. Anyway you already have the car so all I can say is, use your brains and don't take any unnecessary chances.

[lc_MS3]

hahaha, there ain't no talking to you. But I was once your age so I totally understand. When you get older, you'll more than likely have a different outlook on things. Anyway you already have the car so all I can say is, use your brains and don't take any unnecessary chances.

I have agreed with many posts on this thread, yes teens are more likely to get into accidents, but to stereotype all of us like that is ridiculous. And our cars aren't the fastest thing out there. Thinking that is dangerous, because you always want to defend it. That is why people get hurt.

[Betelgeuse]

We have no way of knowing. I mean really, should we all star making assumptions hear? Well then I Assume that the H2 was also doing 100 as someone else assumed the Speed3 to be driving. I am aware this makes no sense and this is my point. We don't know what the H2 was travailing at and we might never BUT to blame the parents is ridiculous.

I think it's safe to assume the speed3 was traveling a lot faster than the h2 for several reasons:

1. the ms3 was completely destroyed (see the pics on the 'other' forum)
2. the ms3 was trying to past 3 cars (according to eyewitnesses) so it would have been accelerating.

3 An H2 is not a hot rod (of course they can get to 90 or more) but most people just cruise in them.


I could be dead wrong and it would be nice to have more info.

[CHICO2003]

My prayers are with both families, but once again, to say "a 17 year old has no business having a car like this" is ridiculous. IT IS A SMALL SPORTS COMPACT CAR THAT IS AFFORDABLE TO MOST TEENAGERS AND THEIR FAMILIES. IT IS NO LAMBO, PORSCHE, OR FERRARI. IT IS SIMILAR TO GTI'S OR R32'S WHICH 2-3 YEARS AGO WAS THE HOT CAR FOR ANY TEEN.

I'm not sure I'd go THAT far... but I hear what you're saying

But for the record... I'm not sure what world you live in but in mine, a $500/month car payment for a 17 year old baggin groceries on the weekend isn't something I'd consider "affordable". And as for the parents... with the cost of raising kids already through the roof (tuition anyone?) buying your 17 year old kid a $25k car tells me you're not in the "most" category.

But that's irrelevant... it's not really about the price of the car. This car, while there are obviously faster cars out there, is way too fast for a typical teenager. There's no way to argue against it... the parents were probably bamboozled and were under the impression it was just a "normal" mazda3. Or.. they're friggin idiots!!

Though it obviously won't eliminate a disaster from occuring... in 16 years when my kid's beggin for a car... we'll get him a nice, safe 16 sec car... lol if he's lucky! after all, the apple doesn't fall far. I drove an '84 plymouth colt E with 86hp... it was tough to maintain the speed limit on the highway but at least I never broke into triple digit territory trying to pass cars. I knew that sort of thing just wasn't going to happen.

[Betelgeuse]

I have agreed with many posts on this thread, yes teens are more likely to get into accidents, but to stereotype all of us like that is ridiculous. And our cars aren't the fastest thing out there. Thinking that is dangerous, because you always want to defend it. That is why people get hurt.

No it isn't the fastest thing out but it's fast nonetheless. You are right about the last part (stuff I bolded).

[terbow]

But does having a MS3 change the fact that he made a bad judgement call? Sure he tried to pass 3 cars cause his cars fast, but if he had a 97 metro and tried to pass 1 car, its just as dangerous given the situation he was in.

Its all relative. As the stats show, teens are more likely to make bad calls with the cars, it doesnt say waht kind of car. Taking your beater over some sweet jumps and crashing is still an accident. You can do that at 5mph.

Those of us who have driven longer, and those younger who are mature, and have respect for the vehicle, will know better. This kid did not.

You learn from your mistakes. Some people dont learn till a near death experience happens. This poor kid didnt get a chance to do so. There could have been lots of interventions based on someone elsed dad saying this kid cant drive. I wish someone would have stepped in since he was a timebomb but ultimately , he turned the key. He has the license.

a life is a life. Im not even going to comment on TheMans comments cause hes the biggest hardass on the internet and it doesnt matter what you say.

[SeminoleMan]

But does having a MS3 change the fact that he made a bad judgement call? Sure he tried to pass 3 cars cause his cars fast, but if he had a 97 metro and tried to pass 1 car, its just as dangerous given the situation he was in.

Fast cars can give one a false sense of what they can do and make them more prone to take that chance. If you drive a metro and know you can barely get it up to hwy speeds, chances are YOU'LL KNOW you won't be passing very quickly on a two-laner.

A bad judgement call is a bad judgement call, but you don't have to compound bad judgement with a car capable of higher limits than the average car. I'm pretty certain I know which car would make him think twice about making that pass...

[lc_MS3]

I think it's safe to assume the speed3 was traveling a lot faster than the h2 for several reasons:

1. the ms3 was completely destroyed (see the pics on the 'other' forum)
2. the ms3 was trying to past 3 cars (according to eyewitnesses) so it would haven been accelerating.

3 An H2 is not a hot rod (of course they can get to 90 or more) but most people just cruise in them.


I could be dead wrong and it would be nice to have more info.

but that also has to do with the sizes of the cars. MS3 weighs 3100+- pounds. The H2 weights 4-5000+ pounds.


I'm not sure I'd go THAT far... but I hear what you're saying

But for the record... I'm not sure what world you live in but in mine, a $500/month car payment for a 17 year old baggin groceries on the weekend isn't something I'd consider "affordable". And as for the parents... with the cost of raising kids already through the roof (tuition anyone?) buying your 17 year old kid a $25k car tells me you're not in the "most" category.

But that's irrelevant... it's not really about the price of the car. This car, while there are obviously faster cars out there, is way too fast for a typical teenager. There's no way to argue against it... the parents were probably bamboozled and were under the impression it was just a "normal" mazda3. Or.. they're friggin idiots!!

Though it obviously won't eliminate a disaster from occuring... in 16 years when my kid's beggin for a car... we'll get him a nice, safe 16 sec car... lol if he's lucky! after all, the apple doesn't fall far. I drove an '84 plymouth colt E with 86hp... it was tough to maintain the speed limit on the highway but at least I never broke into triple digit territory trying to pass cars. I knew that sort of thing just wasn't going to happen.

My car was 22K out the door. I work 20 hours a week at $8 an hour. I pay half of my car payment. I do not know why yours is $500 but i can assure you mine is under $400. You also have no idea what my parents do/ or don't do or how much they make. I am in the "most" category in my area. Hell in my area my family is poor. Yes the MS3 is fast, but so are a lot of other cars kids have now a days. And once again to say the parents were "bamboozled" is ridiculous. You have no idea about how the kid got the car. MY dad was the one who first showed me the Speed 3.


No it isn't the fastest thing out but it's fast nonetheless. You are right about the last part (stuff I bolded).


It is fast but its not "in a class of its own". And once again thank you for agreeing.

[CHICO2003]

exactly

[lc_MS3]

Fast cars can give one a false sense of what they can do and make them more prone to take that chance. If you drive a metro and know you can barely get it up to hwy speeds, chances are YOU'LL KNOW you won't be passing very quickly on a two-laner.

A bad judgement call is a bad judgement call, but you don't have to compound bad judgement with a car capable of higher limits than the average car.

Like I said before, I know more kids in Civics that would do stupid shit then that then kids who have Z's A4's, and BMW's

[icespeed]

wow, i go for dinner and we're on page four already?

Lc, 70 vs 70 is dramatically different than 80 vs 80. However, betelgeuse, 90 vs 50 is identical to 70 vs 70. Well, under the assumption that both are head on collsions. The total net total is 140 in both cases. I do agree that 40 vs 40 is more survivable than 70 vs 70. Although, even 40 vs 40 is the same as going 80 and hitting a stationary object (like a solid wall). Chances of walking away are limited at best.

I remember from one of the driving school courses (of many :() that a front end collision can be compared to falling off of a building. And for every ten miles an hour faster you go, it is the same as adding another story to your fall off of a building. In this case 40 vs 40 would be the same as driving your car off of an 8 story building.

The people in the Hummer had a hell of a better chance surviving because of Impulse of the forces. The Hummer weighs alot more, so the actual forces exerted on the people is considerably less.

As anyone who has ever hit something (another car, deer, wall, tree) head on can attest, at 10mph it wakes you up enough for you to say, "wow, that's alot of force". At 20mph you say to yourself, "man!". At 30mph, it friggin hurts. At 45mph, it happens so fast that you spend the next ten minutes trying to figure out what the hell happened and you thank whoever you believe in that you were wearing your seatbelt. Looking at those pictures, the kids in the MS3 never had a chance.

[terbow]

again, if u pass 3 cars or 1 car and cross the line into oncoming traffic. How does the car matter. It doesnt, He mad a bad call just like you said and its not the first time. Cars don't give a false sense of what they can do, inexperience does.

The sports car goes 25mph just like everyone else.

Does it matter if u use a sniper rifle to kill someone from 100 yards or a rusty revolver up close? No, your still making the call to kill someone.

The kid obviously needed to be monitored and probably shouldnt have had the car, or a car at all, but given his record (from the other parents comments), he would have done it in another car.


Fast cars can give one a false sense of what they can do and make them more prone to take that chance. If you drive a metro and know you can barely get it up to hwy speeds, chances are YOU'LL KNOW you won't be passing very quickly on a two-laner.

A bad judgement call is a bad judgement call, but you don't have to compound bad judgement with a "sports car."

[SeminoleMan]

Like I said before, I know more kids in Civics that would do stupid shit then that then kids who have Z's A4's, and BMW's

And chances are these civics aren't stock...and that they are "import enthusiasts" typical of the H crowd, making them cars more capable than the average driver. Again, this falls exactly into my line of thought.

[lc_MS3]

And chances are these civics aren't stock...

they are BONE stock.

[CHICO2003]

My car was 22K out the door. I work 20 hours a week at $8 an hour. I pay half of my car payment. I do not know why yours is $500 but i can assure you mine is under $400. You also have no idea what my parents do/ or don't do or how much they make. I am in the "most" category in my area. Hell in my area my family is poor. Yes the MS3 is fast, but so are a lot of other cars kids have now a days. And once again to say the parents were "bamboozled" is ridiculous. You have no idea about how the kid got the car. MY dad was the one who first showed me the Speed 3.


LOL Dude... What I said was meant to be taken as a GENERAL statement. I wasn't referring to anyone specifically so don't take it personally.

But since you did... your car wasn't $22k out the door. I'm assuming you have a sport so, if you got it new, it was (with tax, fees, etc.) closer to $24... but who cares? lol I don't even have an MS3... I simply figured the avg MS3 costs $25k so, with no down payment and a typical interest rate, a 60 month term = $500/month.

Again... I never said YOUR parents were bamboozled!! lmfao I was referring to the parents who lost their 2 sons... merely pointing out the fact that THEY might not have realized how fast this car was. Certainly wouldn't be the 1st time... One of the kids down the road from me convinced his parents to buy him an SRT-4... and told them it was "just a neon" with a spoiler. lol they bought it... more ways than one.

[SeminoleMan]

Cars don't give a false sense of what they can do, inexperience does. Are you kidding me? You don't think an idiot/ inexperienced driver isn't going to think he can do something others may not because he THINKS his car is capable of shooting that gap?

[SeminoleMan]

they are BONE stock. Sure...

[terbow]

Are you kidding me? You don't think an idiot/ inexperienced driver isn't going to think he can do something others may not because he THINKS his car is capable of shooting that gap?

Just cause the car has 300whp means its ok to pass into oncoming traffic? you just said hes an idiot/ inexperienced. how is that not what i just said. Last time i checked theres no PASS button on the dash. so he made the call.

[lc_MS3]

LOL Dude... What I said was meant to be taken as a GENERAL statement. I wasn't referring to anyone specifically so don't take it personally.

But since you did... your car wasn't $22k out the door. I'm assuming you have a sport so, if you got it new, it was (with tax, fees, etc.) closer to $24... but who cares? lol I don't even have an MS3... I simply figured the avg MS3 costs $25k so, with no down payment and a typical interest rate, a 60 month term = $500/month.

Again... I never said YOUR parents were bamboozled!! lmfao I was referring to the parents who lost their 2 sons... merely pointing out the fact that THEY might not have realized how fast this car was. Certainly wouldn't be the 1st time... One of the kids down the road from me convinced his parents to buy him an SRT-4... and told them it was "just a neon" with a spoiler. lol they bought it... more ways than one.

No it was 22K OUT THE DOOR. I was was in the room when the papers were signed, and checks written. GENERALLY if a person is a bad driver, then any car you put them in they are dangerous. But ONCE again assuming only makes an ass out of you, so if you want to assume, it must go both ways. ASSUME the kid was surprised with the car. Maybe it was the first day he had it. Maybe when he was driving he had a seizer causing him to swerve into the other lane. STOP ASSUMING IT IS POINTLESS!!!!

[lc_MS3]

Sure...

You say sure like you have meet them. Most kids don't have a clue how to make their cars faster. NOT ALL kids with civics are ricer. I don't know one kid with a civic that has performance upgrades to it.

[SeminoleMan]

Just cause the car has 300whp means its ok to pass into oncoming traffic? you just said hes an idiot/ inexperienced. how is that not what i just said. Last time i checked theres no PASS button on the dash. so he made the call.And do you think he would have made that same decision (passing three cars) driving a geo metro - or do you think it might have occured to him that he won't make it halfway up the door of the first car? Again, I believe he thought the cars capability would pick up where his judgement was lacking.

[CHICO2003]

again, if u pass 3 cars or 1 car and cross the line into oncoming traffic. How does the car matter. It doesnt, He mad a bad call just like you said and its not the first time. Cars don't give a false sense of what they can do, inexperience does.

The sports car goes 25mph just like everyone else.

Does it matter if u use a sniper rifle to kill someone from 100 yards or a rusty revolver up close? No, your still making the call to kill someone.

The kid obviously needed to be monitored and probably shouldnt have had the car, or a car at all, but given his record (from the other parents comments), he would have done it in another car.

Kids will be kids. and more specifically... typical 17 year old boys will be... well, you get the idea. The idea is to LIMIT as much as possible any way for them to kill themselves or anyone else.

It's no different than... hell, I don't know... suicide. Recently a kid in my town blew his head off using his dad's shotgun. The article stated the kid was depressed... so here we have a suicidal kid. Would he have found another way to kill himself if his dad didn't have a gun in the house? perhaps. but the point is to, in addition to all the obvious things like getting him professional help, LIMIT things he could easily get his hands on and commit the act. pulling a trigger is a lot easier than a lot of the other ways you might be thinking... and, recalling what I learned as a child psych major in college, those means often don't even work.

I went off on a tangent but the point is clear. Giving a teenage boy a pocket rocket is like giving a suicidal person a loaded gun. Can you die in a Geo Metro? absolutely. Can you pass a slow car on a 2 laner? probably not... in fact, unless it's like a tractor or something... you aint goin anywhere. this is something even the most dense 17 year old quickly figures out rather quick. I should know...

[CHICO2003]

No it was 22K OUT THE DOOR. I was was in the room when the papers were signed, and checks written. GENERALLY if a person is a bad driver, then any car you put them in they are dangerous. But ONCE again assuming only makes an ass out of you, so if you want to assume, it must go both ways. ASSUME the kid was surprised with the car. Maybe it was the first day he had it. Maybe when he was driving he had a seizer causing him to swerve into the other lane. STOP ASSUMING IT IS POINTLESS!!!!

lol okay then... your parents put down a down payment then! wouldn't be the 1st time! haha

back to the topic at hand...

[orlandomsp]

they are BONE stock.


Sure...

You'd believe it if you came down here to orlando. You should see all these ricer punks in their bone stock civics and neons, they're the quintessential example of stupidity behind the wheel.

[lc_MS3]

lol okay then... your parents put down a down payment then! wouldn't be the 1st time! haha

back to the topic at hand...

More like I saved 5g to put down. So once again STOP ASSUMING. The kid died because he made a stupid decision. END OF STORY

[terbow]

I never said its ok to give someone WHO CANT DRIVE/MAKE GOOD JUDGEMENT a fast car. You guys seem to be missing that through the posts. the car doesnt matter. he should have not had this car CAUSE HE CANT DRIVE. not cause of the car. the car will NOT MOVE unless you operate it.

How does limiting someone give them good judgement. I agree you need experience but do you buy someone a car before they have their license? i hope not, if your kid cant drive then when hes old enough to get a ms3 or whatever on his own and he kills himself then then its ok cause hes not 17?

[lc_MS3]

You'd believe it if you came down here to orlando. You should see all these ricer punks in their bone stock civics and neons, they're the quintessential example of stupidity behind the wheel.

What i was referring to was the rational that all kids who drive civics rice them out.

[terbow]

And do you think he would have made that same decision (passing three cars) driving a geo metro - or do you think it might have occured to him that he won't make it halfway up the door of the first car? Again, I believe he thought the cars capability would pick up where his judgement was lacking.

obviously he would. would u get into a car with someone when your dad said they dont like you driving with them cause they drive like a douche bag.? probably not cause you have good judgement.

[lc_MS3]

I never said its ok to give someone WHO CANT DRIVE/MAKE GOOD JUDGEMENT a fast car. You guys seem to be missing that through the posts. the car doesnt matter. he should have not had this car CAUSE HE CANT DRIVE. not cause of the car. the car will NOT MOVE unless you operate it.

How does limiting someone give them good judgement. I agree you need experience but do you buy someone a car before they have their license? i hope not, if your kid cant drive then when hes old enough to get a ms3 or whatever on his own and he kills himself then then its ok cause hes not 17?

You are the only one here who seems to agree with me. IT was DRIVER ERROR. The car had NOTHING to do with it.

[orlandomsp]

What i was referring to was the rational that all kids who drive civics rice them out.

I'm using the term ricer loosely.


You are the only one here who seems to agree with me. IT was DRIVER ERROR. The car had NOTHING to do with it.

Agreed.

[icespeed]

Again... I never said YOUR parents were bamboozled!! lmfao I was referring to the parents who lost their 2 sons... merely pointing out the fact that THEY might not have realized how fast this car was. Certainly wouldn't be the 1st time... One of the kids down the road from me convinced his parents to buy him an SRT-4... and told them it was "just a neon" with a spoiler. lol they bought it... more ways than one.

I have a hard time believing that the father didn't know what the MS3 was.

When my pops first started allowing me to drive, it was in his bimmer. Sure it wasn't the fastest of cars, but it was still pretty quick. He made me follow rules.

Rule #1: No food or drinks in the car. When you get behind the wheel, you are there for driving. If you ever get in an accident and there was food in the car, pray for the worst, because you will not want to deal with me after.

Rule #2: Always know your surroundings. People are idiots and you have to expect the unexpected with them. If you ever get in an accident because you weren't paying attention, pray for the worst, because you will not want to deal with me after.

Rule #3: Know your car inside and out. Know how it brakes, know how it accellerates. Know how it takes a turn. If you ever roll the bimmer doing 45 in a right turn, pray for the worst, because you will not want to deal with me after.

Rule #4: Never, ever take a passenger's word that the coast is clear. Even if it is me (my dad) or your mom. Always check a second time. If you ever get an accident because you were listening to someone else, pray for the worst, because you will not want to deal with me after.

Rule #5: The left lane is for passing only. If there are no cars on the right, then you better be.

Rule #6: If you have to speed, always speed in the right lane. The cops never suspect it. If you are ever caught speeding, you better take care of it before I (my dad) find out.

Rule #7: If you are ever arrested for DUI, you better use the quarter to call the morgue and make arrangements.

Then, when I got my first car (1985 ford escort, in '95), he took me to an empty parking lot and made sure I knew what a 10mph impact felt like. Then he brake checked me right after because he saw I wasn't wearing my seatbelt. Then we ended up doing donuts so I knew how to use the E-brake properly.

I've still maxed out my number of driving schools I can go to in the State of Florida. I've been in a few accidents. I have countless tickets. I've been to the Insurance forgiveness courses. Generally speaking, he taught me "proper" ways to drive. Is it his fault if I were to get in an accident like this one? Of course not. Hell, I was more afraid of my pops than any bodily damage from a car crash!

[orlandomsp]

I have a hard time believing that the father didn't know what the MS3 was.

When my pops first started allowing me to drive, it was in his bimmer. Sure it wasn't the fastest of cars, but it was still pretty quick. He made me follow rules.

Rule #1: No food or drinks in the car. When you get behind the wheel, you are there for driving. If you ever get in an accident and there was food in the car, pray for the worst, because you will not want to deal with me after.

Rule #2: Always know your surroundings. People are idiots and you have to expect the unexpected with them. If you ever get in an accident because you weren't paying attention, pray for the worst, because you will not want to deal with me after.

Rule #3: Know your car inside and out. Know how it brakes, know how it accellerates. Know how it takes a turn. If you ever roll the bimmer doing 45 in a right turn, pray for the worst, because you will not want to deal with me after.

Rule #4: Never, ever take a passenger's word that the coast is clear. Even if it is me (my dad) or your mom. Always check a second time. If you ever get an accident because you were listening to someone else, pray for the worst, because you will not want to deal with me after.

Rule #5: The left lane is for passing only. If there are no cars on the right, then you better be.

Rule #6: If you have to speed, always speed in the right lane. The cops never suspect it. If you are ever caught speeding, you better take care of it before I (my dad) find out.

Rule #7: If you are ever arrested for DUI, you better use the quarter to call the morgue and make arrangements.

Then, when I got my first car (1985 ford escort, in '95), he took me to an empty parking lot and made sure I knew what a 10mph impact felt like. Then he brake checked me right after because he saw I wasn't wearing my seatbelt. Then we ended up doing donuts so I knew how to use the E-brake properly.

Hell, I was more afraid of my pops than any bodily damage from a car crash!

(rlaugh) I couldn't agree with you more, my dad made damn sure I knew what I was doing before I had to get my license.

To this day I don't eat in any car unless it's parked, and I always seem to know my surroundings better than those around me.

[SeminoleMan]

obviously he would. That's just moronic. Thanks for the debate, but I'm out since there is no convincing you that a car with less capabilites CAN influence the chances you take when driving.

[CX-7owner]

That's just moronic. Thanks for the debate, but I'm out since there is no convincing you that a car with less capabilites CAN influence the chances you take when driving.

Haha, it didn't influence my sister's driving in the Taurus, she drove that thing like the boat that it is. It really depends on the person, if someone knows that this less capable car might not be able to pass, then they probably won't take the chance, but someone that doesn't know the difference from I4 and V6 probably won't care, and will try to pass anyway.

[Bravnik]

lc, don't get so riled up... unfortunately, people need someone to blame. It makes it easier to deal with if someone pays for mistakes (whether they are their own mistakes or not). The kid is dead, so society can't call for justice against him. Society then turns their attention to the parents.

"Wait, what's that? His dad is a race car driver? Really? Well, the Parents must be held accountable then. His dad must be the one who taught him that. Break out the nousse boys, or perhaps some wood and a stake"
/sarcasm

I guess it makes it easier to sleep at night, under the false pretense that justice has been served and things like this won't happen to me and my family. NIMB!

I don't need to blame anyone to sleep better at night. It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that no parent in their right mind should give any child a 240+HP car as their first car and pray they don't kill themselves.

I'm not saying every 16year old will wreck their car and die. I'm simply saying that its 100% irresponsible for any parent to give their young teenager a 240HP car to play with.

I don't understand where people like yourself fail to see common sense. Can a 16 year old drive or should they? Sure. But is a parent being responsible by buying their kid a car that promotes speeding/racing/driving crazy? I mean its not like its a Volvo known for its safety, its a MS3 that was made to do one thing....go the fastest it can for its class.

I'm not blaming any 16 year old for driving. I'm blaming the parents of the 16 year olds that buy them a fast car only to bury them. I can guarantee they stare in the mirror and blame themselves for buying the car for them after they put them in the ground.

So when you quote me make sure you do it right. I don't blame the kids for driving or wanting a fast car. I blame the idiot parents that buy them for them then wonder what went wrong when they end up killing themselves or others.

Your parents would never buy you a GSX1300R as the first Motorcycle you ever owned. Your first car should be no different as you can easly kill yourself in a Civic so why would you want to give a Child a car thats 3 times as powerful? Stupid, Ignorant and Irresponsible. Sorry if you don't agree.

Edit: Oh and I notice that your Dad got you a 85 Escort in 95 and not an RX7. Smart Man and I give him props because his son doesn't seem to be very responsible 13 years later :)

[CX-7owner]

Actually the same chassis underpins the Volvo S40, and it's pretty safe considering the full complement of airbags, and structural rigidity. My CX-7 has more than 240HP and I manage to be a safe teen, but according to most in this thread I don't have much time.

[lc_MS3]

I don't need to blame anyone to sleep better at night. It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that no parent in their right mind should give any child a 240+HP car as their first car and pray they don't kill themselves.

I'm not saying every 16year old will wreck their car and die. I'm simply saying that its 100% irresponsible for any parent to give their young teenager a 240HP car to play with.

I don't understand where people like yourself fail to see common sense. Can a 16 year old drive or should they? Sure. But is a parent being responsible by buying their kid a car that promotes speeding/racing/driving crazy? I mean its not like its a Volvo known for its safety, its a MS3 that was made to do one thing....go the fastest it can for its class.

I'm not blaming any 16 year old for driving. I'm blaming the parents of the 16 year olds that buy them a fast car only to bury them. I can guarantee they stare in the mirror and blame themselves for buying the car for them after they put them in the ground.

So when you quote me make sure you do it right. I don't blame the kids for driving or wanting a fast car. I blame the idiot parents that buy them for them then wonder what went wrong when they end up killing themselves or others.

Your parents would never buy you a GSX1300R as the first Motorcycle you ever owned. Your first car should be no different as you can easly kill yourself in a Civic so why would you want to give a Child a car thats 3 times as powerful? Stupid, Ignorant and Irresponsible. Sorry if you don't agree.

What about the parents who buy their kids v8 trucks??? Those have 240+hp and they are fine?(dunno) EACH KID IS DIFFERENT. AS ARE PARENTS. YOU MAY NOT SEE EYE-TO-EYE WITH MY PARENTS, BECAUSE YOU WERE RAISED DIFFERENTLY. STOP saying all kids are irresponsible. It is not a true fact. NOR is it a fact that kids with faster cars get into more accidents then kids with slower cars.

[icespeed]

That's just moronic. Thanks for the debate, but I'm out since there is no convincing you that a car with less capabilites CAN influence the chances you take when driving.

If you don't mind, I'd like to jump in this one. I can understand your point. However, I personally feel that if I couldn't pass a car driving my first car ('85 escort), I sure as hell woudn't attempt it in a MS3. It means there wasn't enough room with the oncoming car to begin with. This view isn't because I'm older and wiser, I've always felt this way.

I've only had one time that I would consider a close call in this scenario. It was actually because the jerk I was trying to pass decided to speed up and not let me. They were dashed yellow lines, so legally I was entitled to over take the car (for the record, lol). I honestly didn't think I was gonna make it and it was too late for me to slam on my brakes and get back behind him. I ended up having to cut him off by inches. Ofcourse I then proceeded to slam on my brakes, flash my hazards and give him the bird.

When over taking a car by going into oncoming traffic, you have to calculate alot of different things before actually going through with it. I always calculate that I have one car length between me and the car I'm taking over before I come back over to the correct lane. Any more than one car length is a bonus. Once I finally decide to go for it, I slam on the gas and go as fast as possible. From 55 mph, my escort could get up to ~75. My 99 protege could get up to about 90, my msp could get up to 100. In all of those cars, I would be a good 6 to 7 car lengths ahead of the over taken car before the oncoming traffic actually "caught up".

So while I can rationalize your point and appreciate it, the type of cars I have driven never effected my awareness of what was a "safe" distance to attempt this type of passing.

[Bravnik]

Actually the same chassis underpins the Volvo S40, and it's pretty safe considering the full complement of airbags, and structural rigidity. My CX-7 has more than 240HP and I manage to be a safe teen, but according to most in this thread I don't have much time.

You have a CX7. Its a SUV and Not Fast but enough power to keep you out of trouble as well as in. Its not a bad choice for a kid. Its not like you're going to be racing the EVO's in your area anytime soon. It's not an MS3.

[Betelgeuse]

It is fast but its not "in a class of its own". And once again thank you for agreeing.

Price wise it is in the same class as a GTI or Civic SI but performance wise (stock for stock) it's in a different league. It's in the 350z, mustang GT territory in terms of speed.

[CantCMe]

A mistake by the teen not the car.

Yeah, the teens put the keys in the car. Yeah, the parents bought the car. And yeah, the teens crashed. But I feel the parents shouldn't have bought them a car period.

[Bravnik]

What about the parents who buy their kids v8 trucks??? Those have 240+hp and they are fine?(dunno) EACH KID IS DIFFERENT. AS ARE PARENTS. YOU MAY NOT SEE EYE-TO-EYE WITH MY PARENTS, BECAUSE YOU WERE RAISED DIFFERENTLY. STOP saying all kids are irresponsible. It is not a true fact. NOR is it a fact that kids with faster cars get into more accidents then kids with slower cars.


Ok I will bite. Its a TRUCK. 240HP but weighs 5k lbs and is not what I would call a fast car. Sure you can race it much like you can race a base Civic. BUT you're not going to go 0-60 in under 6secs and 107 in the 1/4 in a damn truck. Use some common sense and stop trying to defend your parents who failed to use any Common Sense and purchased you a MS3.

I'm not saying anything will happen to you. You could live to be 100 for all I know. Your parents buying you a fast car is totally unnecessary and irresponsable at the age of 16 and just about every parent with any common sense in the world will agree.

And please....I didn't call you irresponsible...I called your parent irresponsable.

[CX-7owner]

You have a CX7. Its a SUV and Not Fast but enough power to keep you out of trouble as well as in. Its not a bad choice for a kid. Its not like you're going to be racing the EVO's in your area anytime soon. It's not an MS3.

But it has 240HP, less with drivetrain loss but it get's up and goes with the mods.

[Betelgeuse]

If you don't mind, I'd like to jump in this one. I can understand your point. However, I personally feel that if I couldn't pass a car driving my first car ('85 escort), I sure as hell woudn't attempt it in a MS3. It means there wasn't enough room with the oncoming car to begin with. This view isn't because I'm older and wiser, I've always felt this way.




Ok I will say with surety that I have passed cars in situations in my ms3 that I wouldn't have attempted with my mazda 6s. The ms3 is that much quicker and instills that much confidence. The braking, handling and acceleration are excellent. Just curious, have you driven one? Or if you have, did you romp on it?

[CX-7owner]

++ Also, a friend got a ticket in my CX-7 for 67 in a 45(considering how adequate the power is, according to you I have to mention it), irresponsible yes, but it really doesn't matter what you're in or how much HP it has because it will get up to 67 in most cases.

[Bravnik]

But it has 240HP, less with drivetrain loss but it get's up and goes with the mods.

OMG Kids. Ok it has 240HP. It's not fast. Sorry. How much does it weigh? How much drivetrain loss? Could you do 0-60 in under 6 secs? Could you do 13 sec in 1/4 stock?

I don't think so. You drive a modern day Soccer Mom car. Its big, safe and SLOW! A good choice for a kid.

Look on the bright side, you have plenty of room in the back for your dates. But don't go getting all excited about 240HP in your CX7. It's not fast. Sorry.

[Betelgeuse]

again, if u pass 3 cars or 1 car and cross the line into oncoming traffic. How does the car matter. It doesnt, He mad a bad call just like you said and its not the first time. Cars don't give a false sense of what they can do, inexperience does.

So you're saying passing one car and quickly getting back in lane isn't any different than trying to pass 3?



The sports car goes 25mph just like everyone else.

This is true but a more mature person would more likely drive it responsibly.



Does it matter if u use a sniper rifle to kill someone from 100 yards or a rusty revolver up close? No, your still making the call to kill someone.

True but shooting someone with a magnum 45 will do more damage (on average) than a 22.

[CX-7owner]

OMG Kids. Ok it has 240HP. It's not fast. Sorry. How much does it weigh? How much drivetrain loss? Could you do 0-60 in under 6 secs? Could you do 13 sec in 1/4 stock?

I don't think so. You drive a modern day Soccer Mom car. Its big, safe and SLOW! A good choice for a kid.

Look on the bright side, you have plenty of room in the back for your dates. But don't go getting all excited about 240HP in your CX7. It's not fast. Sorry.

OMG neither is the FWD MS3, if you can shift OK it's a 6 second car, it's not fast, it's quick. My CX-7 is a second slower.

[SeminoleMan]

Ok I will say with surety that I have passed cars in situations in my ms3 that I wouldn't have attempted with my mazda 6s. The ms3 is that much quicker and instills that much confidence. The braking, handling and acceleration are excellent. Just curious, have you driven one? Or if you have, did you romp on it?

And this is the point I was making...thanks.

[Bravnik]

Ok I will say with surety that I have passed cars in situations in my ms3 that I wouldn't have attempted with my mazda 6s. The ms3 is that much quicker and instills that much confidence. The braking, handling and acceleration are excellent. Just curious, have you driven one? Or if you have, did you romp on it?

And so has Ice I assure you. I find it hard to believe he typed that with a straight face. Of course you take into consideration the Car you're in. Power gives confidence and shortens the distance of what is safe and what is not. Experience dictates all.

My wife has a Ford Explorer and has never had a fast car. She drives like a granny at 44 in it. I purchased a 2007 RX8 or her. You should see the differance in the way she drives it. Its Night and Day.

The car does not make any differance:bs:

[Betelgeuse]

Ok, if you insist....

Survival of the fittest. Deny the trends. Look at the numbers and understand that there is room for interperetations. For example: taken from the website you posted (http://www.rmiia.org/Auto/Teens/Teen_Driving_Statistics.htm):

"16-year-olds are three times more likely to die in a motor vehicle crash than the average of all drivers."

That word "average" is a very important word. It doesn't say that they are three times more likely to die than all others. Hell for all I know, from this specific line, 43 year olds die more often than 16 year olds in a car crash. Interperetation is vital.

To me? yeah it sucks this kid died. It sucked last year when a guy from our car club down here died. It sucks everytime that someone dies. Regardless of reckless behaviour, old age, over dose, heart attack.. .anything. But, such is life. Who am I to say that someone deserves death? Who am I to say that someone deserves life? It is what it is. People die. Regarless of "what-could-have-beens", the fact remains that people die. So be it. If we completely abolished teenagers driving, teenagers would still die in car accidents. Whether they did so illegally, or whether they were in the car with an adult driving, it changes nothing... .everyone dies.

I don't think I'm righteous enough to toot my horn and say that I have the power to save another person's life. I'm not a doctor. I don't have a self-satisfying urge to preach to everyone about what they should and should not do, based on the statistics that other people have presented me with.

The individual is, and has always been, more important to me. You can talk with an individual, know them, care for them, help them understand that death comes in ten thousand forms, not just from driving. Can I save them? I'm sorry, but that's not my purpose. Does it hurt when someone I know/care for dies? Sure it does. I'm human. But it doesn't change the fact that they died. So why cry over spilled milk? Therefore, hey, shoe happens. What's done is done.

Survival of the fittest.

Well have you thought about the fact that you might be saving yourself or a loved one? I mean if 'just let it be' is your solution then you've pretty much answered my question and have chosen a side.

[Bravnik]

OMG neither is the FWD MS3, if you can shift OK it's a 6 second car, it's not fast, it's quick. My CX-7 is a second slower.

The MS3 is a 13sec car in the 1/4. By todays standards its fast. $500 and your into the 12's which is even faster.

There are not too many production cars under 30k that can hit 12's. Can your Cx-7? LOL

Sorry, Soccer Mom's car all the way man.

[CantCMe]

I have a hard time believing that the father didn't know what the MS3 was.

When my pops first started allowing me to drive, it was in his bimmer. Sure it wasn't the fastest of cars, but it was still pretty quick. He made me follow rules.

Rule #1: No food or drinks in the car. When you get behind the wheel, you are there for driving. If you ever get in an accident and there was food in the car, pray for the worst, because you will not want to deal with me after.

Rule #2: Always know your surroundings. People are idiots and you have to expect the unexpected with them. If you ever get in an accident because you weren't paying attention, pray for the worst, because you will not want to deal with me after.

Rule #3: Know your car inside and out. Know how it brakes, know how it accellerates. Know how it takes a turn. If you ever roll the bimmer doing 45 in a right turn, pray for the worst, because you will not want to deal with me after.

Rule #4: Never, ever take a passenger's word that the coast is clear. Even if it is me (my dad) or your mom. Always check a second time. If you ever get an accident because you were listening to someone else, pray for the worst, because you will not want to deal with me after.

Rule #5: The left lane is for passing only. If there are no cars on the right, then you better be.

Rule #6: If you have to speed, always speed in the right lane. The cops never suspect it. If you are ever caught speeding, you better take care of it before I (my dad) find out.

Rule #7: If you are ever arrested for DUI, you better use the quarter to call the morgue and make arrangements.

Then, when I got my first car (1985 ford escort, in '95), he took me to an empty parking lot and made sure I knew what a 10mph impact felt like. Then he brake checked me right after because he saw I wasn't wearing my seatbelt. Then we ended up doing donuts so I knew how to use the E-brake properly.

I've still maxed out my number of driving schools I can go to in the State of Florida. I've been in a few accidents. I have countless tickets. I've been to the Insurance forgiveness courses. Generally speaking, he taught me "proper" ways to drive. Is it his fault if I were to get in an accident like this one? Of course not. Hell, I was more afraid of my pops than any bodily damage from a car crash!

Your father is a smart man...but their are people out here that don't know the difference between a regular 3 and a Speed 3(dunno). We happen to know the difference and/or do the research before we make a purchase like that.

[icespeed]

I don't need to blame anyone to sleep better at night. It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that no parent in their right mind should give any child a 240+HP car as their first car and pray they don't kill themselves.

I'm not saying every 16year old will wreck their car and die. I'm simply saying that its 100% irresponsible for any parent to give their young teenager a 240HP car to play with.

I don't understand where people like yourself fail to see common sense. Can a 16 year old drive or should they? Sure. But is a parent being responsible by buying their kid a car that promotes speeding/racing/driving crazy? I mean its not like its a Volvo known for its safety, its a MS3 that was made to do one thing....go the fastest it can for its class.

I'm not blaming any 16 year old for driving. I'm blaming the parents of the 16 year olds that buy them a fast car only to bury them. I can guarantee they stare in the mirror and blame themselves for buying the car for them after they put them in the ground.

So when you quote me make sure you do it right. I don't blame the kids for driving or wanting a fast car. I blame the idiot parents that buy them for them then wonder what went wrong when they end up killing themselves or others.

Your parents would never buy you a GSX1300R as the first Motorcycle you ever owned. Your first car should be no different as you can easly kill yourself in a Civic so why would you want to give a Child a car thats 3 times as powerful? Stupid, Ignorant and Irresponsible. Sorry if you don't agree.

Edit: Oh and I notice that your Dad got you a 85 Escort in 95 and not an RX7. Smart Man and I give him props because his son doesn't seem to be very responsible 13 years later :)


so my internet crashed.... probably a good thing cuz it gave me a chance to calm down and not go off on you like I should. I figure you to be about 10 to 15 years older than me. That puts in the range of class of '81 to '86. Here are some of the top of the line cars available to teenagers back then. Whether your parents let you have one or not is another story:

1981 Camaro Z-28: 350 V8 175 bhp @ 4000 rpm, 275 lb-ft @ 2400 rpm.
1985 Mustang 5.0: 4V-302 V8 GT (T-5) 210 HP @ 4400 RPM 270 ft/lbs. @ 3200 RPM
1983 Trans Am: OHV V-8 305/5.0 190@4800 240@3200 4 bbl

Please do not bs these kids with their top of the line mazda 3's with a turbo. The ft-lbs are all the same. The higher HP is directly proportional to the higher rpm's now-a-days.

And do not attempt to attack me personally. It only vindicates my point of view. Don't use the word responsible either. I hate that word :)

[lc_MS3]

Price wise it is in the same class as a GTI or Civic SI but performance wise (stock for stock) it's in a different league. It's in the 350z, mustang GT territory in terms of speed.

Having driven a Z many times I must say a Z is a more potent car. Also GTI's are still in the same class as speed3's.


Yeah, the teens put the keys in the car. Yeah, the parents bought the car. And yeah, the teens crashed. But I feel the parents shouldn't have bought them a car period.

Once again an ASSUMPTION! WE DO NOT KNOW HOW THE KID GOT THE CAR. Parents are not to blame.


Ok I will bite. Its a TRUCK. 240HP but weighs 5k lbs and is not what I would call a fast car. Sure you can race it much like you can race a base Civic. BUT you're not going to go 0-60 in under 6secs and 107 in the 1/4 in a damn truck. Use some common sense and stop trying to defend your parents who failed to use any Common Sense and purchased you a MS3.

I'm not saying anything will happen to you. You could live to be 100 for all I know. Your parents buying you a fast car is totally unnecessary and irresponsable at the age of 16 and just about every parent with any common sense in the world will agree.

And please....I didn't call you irresponsible...I called your parent irresponsable.

I will always defend my parents from a-holes like you. There might be a reason you wouldn't get you son/daughter a car like this, but it is YOUR OWN REASON. My parents have different values and are not like you. And once again my parents didn't buy me a car. I AM PAYING for most of the car. To call people irresponsible idiots on the internet is like saying your the smartest mentally challenged person.

[icespeed]

Ok I will say with surety that I have passed cars in situations in my ms3 that I wouldn't have attempted with my mazda 6s. The ms3 is that much quicker and instills that much confidence. The braking, handling and acceleration are excellent. Just curious, have you driven one? Or if you have, did you romp on it?

Yes I have done this like on on-ramps to the highway and such. But not in an oncoming traffic over take. Not worth it to me.

I did drive one at summerpalooza. It's a fun car, it drives a little different than my MSP does. I felt like the ass was gonna drop out in the MS3... could be psychological though. /shrug

[CantCMe]

The MS3 is a 13sec car in the 1/4. By todays standards its fast. $500 and your into the 12's which is even faster.

There are not too many production cars under 30k that can hit 12's. Can your Cx-7? LOL

Sorry, Soccer Mom's car all the way man.

So true...back in '91 when I was a senior in high school I had a GT Mustang and to me at the time it was fast...that car could do the 1/4 in about 15 seconds. It wouldn't stand a chance against the MS3. To me (and I'm 34) the MS3 is considered a fast car.

[Bravnik]

Your father is a smart man...but their are people out here that don't know the difference between a regular 3 and a Speed 3(dunno). We happen to know the difference and/or do the research before we make a purchase like that.

This is a true fact. I agree completely. I'm sure there are quite a few MS3's purchased for Kids by parents who think its just a body kit and looks cooler and their kids never mention about the HP and how fast it is and the parents never think to ask.

[CX-7owner]

The MS3 is a 13sec car in the 1/4. By todays standards its fast. $500 and your into the 12's which is even faster.

There are not too many production cars under 30k that can hit 12's. Can your Cx-7? LOL

Sorry, Soccer Mom's car all the way man.

LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL LLLLLLLLLLLL

The CX-7 can barely fit someone that is 6' 4" in the back seat, and it can barely fit three in the back, it's hardly something for soccer moms, the CX-9 yeah, the CX-7, no. And stock with an average driver you're looking at 14 seconds, NOT 13, and $500 and you're into a reliable 12 second MS3??! Keep dreaming.

It's not fast, get a clue in on what fast is and come back to the board.

[icespeed]

Well have you thought about the fact that you might be saving yourself or a loved one? I mean if 'just let it be' is your solution then you've pretty much answered my question and have chosen a side.

lol, which is why I didn't want to get into it ;)

alot of people have a problem with such exploited dawrinism. And I am no one to offend :)

[Betelgeuse]

Having driven a Z many times I must say a Z is a more potent car. Also GTI's are still in the same class as speed3's.

The new 350zs are a little quicker, but the old ones were about the same or little slower actually. I've raced a couple g35s and 350zs and I know for a fact I pulled on them. The GTI is NOT in the same class speed wise- that's a known. It's much closer when chipped but even then it's a little slower.

[Betelgeuse]

lol, which is why I didn't want to get into it ;)

alot of people have a problem with such exploited dawrinism. And I am no one to offend :)

No problem, I just wanted to know where you stand that's all. It's all good :)

[icespeed]

This is a true fact. I agree completely. I'm sure there are quite a few MS3's purchased for Kids by parents who think its just a body kit and looks cooler and their kids never mention about the HP and how fast it is and the parents never think to ask.

lol the only reason i bought the msp was because I had owned a 99 protege and was comfortable with the interior. Here the MSP had nice rims, a body kit and a spoiler. When I test drove it... I liked it.

edit: So I will agree with you. My doubt with this father (from the actual thread) was strictly based on the fact that his profession is in the performance car field.

[CX-7owner]

But anyway, the kid was an accident waiting to happen, in anything he was driving.

Really, if it wasn't an MS3 it probably wouldn't be in the news, it's all to scare parents into not letting teenagers drive at all, whats the point in this particular story making it into the news anyway, I saw a serious accident (dead) on the 101 and it didn't make the news.

[CantCMe]

Once again an ASSUMPTION! WE DO NOT KNOW HOW THE KID GOT THE CAR. Parents are not to blame.


Ok...I'm assuming the parents bought the kid the car. I'll step back for a minute. If I have a 16 year old child that lives in my house that I pay the bills in, and he has enough money to pay for a $22k vehicle and pay insurance, or wins the car in some event, I still have control over that. Because if I throw his ass out of my house and he has to survive on his own best believe he's not gonna be able to afford that car UNDER NORMAL SITUATIONS. And also in none of my posts am I blaming the parents. All I said was they shouldn't have bought him the car period. They made a statement that they feared for their chids life if he drove a fast car, then they gave him the keys to a fast car. These things actually happened! And I'm still not blaming the parents for the loss of their children. I don't need to blame others to sleep well at night.

[lc_MS3]

But anyway, the kid was an accident waiting to happen, in anything he was driving.

Really, if it wasn't an MS3 it probably wouldn't be in the news, it's all to scare parents into not letting teenagers drive at all, whats the point in this particular story making it into the news anyway, I saw a serious accident (dead) on the 101 and it didn't make the news.

agreed. are prayers should be with the family and this thread should be locked. (locked)

[Rush]

The vast majority of teenagers are incapable of handling a car with more than 150hp. Please note, I said the MAJORITY -- there are always those few exceptions to every rule.

In this case, the driver of the MS3 was known to be an aggressive driver. I didn't read through every page of this thread (only up to page 7 or so), but IF the parents bought the driver the car, they have to accept responsibility for what happened. It's the equivalent of giving a developing pyromaniac a book of matches -- giving a notoriously aggressive teenage driver a 260hp car. And even if the parents DID NOT buy the MS3, they should have forbidden the purchase of it. He was under 18, and that could've been done. Having your kid pissed off and screaming and irate is better than having him dead.

As far as the whole debate of -- it's the driver, not the car .. I think it's both. IMO, if you have an aggressive driver -- he's going to try to pull a lot more shit in a car that he KNOWS is fast, rather than in an old beater. His ego and his sense of invincibility will be even more inflated in an 'upscale' car, knowing he has that extra power, and thinking he can fall back on it when he's cutting it close while driving .. and then wham, done, the end.

It's a tragedy, but one that could've been fully avoided.

[TheMAN]

+1

<snip>
Ic_MS3:

The fact that you take offense to the comments here shows your immaturity.
You need to accept the fact that you're in a age-group that statistically are more likely to wreck or be killed in a fast car. Now, like I said above, there are always exceptions and you might be one of them - good for you. But the stats don't lie.

thank you! I was going to say that after seeing all the defense he was posting... maybe he's special and 1/1000000 that doesn't do any of this, but you know, I have a hard time believing those odds... statistics shows that teens do stupid shit at the most unpredictable times... totally irrational shit when at other given times they were totally stable... I know this for a fact because I did the same crazy shit when I was young... I'm just glad no one got hurt and I'm just glad that I was forced to drive a slow ass car... I thank my parents for that, and I thank the people's parents here whose decided the same thing... those who was allowed to drive fast cars here in this thread at those ages were/are foolish at best.... his remarks are of a typical teenager who thinks they know what they're doing and think they know how shit works... I know because I said the same shit... now I know better and now I know better to listen to the wisdom of my elders and stop doing stupid shit

[Bravnik]

Having driven a Z many times I must say a Z is a more potent car. Also GTI's are still in the same class as speed3's.



Once again an ASSUMPTION! WE DO NOT KNOW HOW THE KID GOT THE CAR. Parents are not to blame.



I will always defend my parents from a-holes like you. There might be a reason you wouldn't get you son/daughter a car like this, but it is YOUR OWN REASON. My parents have different values and are not like you. And once again my parents didn't buy me a car. I AM PAYING for most of the car. To call people irresponsible idiots on the internet is like saying your the smartest mentally challenged person.


Feel free to defend your parents as that is honerable and shows your love. We all have our on opinions. Your parents have theirs and I have mine. The differance is that most parents will agree that giving a kid a sports car at 16 is irresponsible. Just ask around. Or look at the majority of the people in this post to get an idea. The only one really supporting you is Ice and I would not even want to think for a second he has any children. Also take a gander at what he got as a first car. His Dad was responsable, yours not so much.

You're 16. Try to remember this post 30 years from now when you have kids of your own. See if you feel the same as you do now.

[Betelgeuse]

LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL LLLLLLLLLLLL


It's not fast, get a clue in on what fast is and come back to the board.


Since when is 14 seconds flat at 100 mph not fast? Relative to 80% of the cars on the road today, that's fast. And high 13s is very doable as people have done it repeatedly. Is it the fastest thing on the road? Of course not but that doesn't mean it's not fast.

As for the CX-7, it's biggest problems are its weight and transmission. The modern slushboxes are programmed for fuel economy and ride-comfort and will suck power like a big sponge. It's just not a good candidate for modding.

[TheMAN]

I think you guys need to give LC some credit he is a 16 kid who is holding his own on a very opinionated forum and is bringing up some great points.

Posters like Bavnik seem to relish the fact that these kids were given a fast car and this some how led to their death. ****News Flash**** Even if those kids had been given a 85 honda civic hatch back they would probably still be dead! So are you going to argue that the honda had the potential for becoming fast and the parents should have considered this?!?! Get real!

I just love how someone who is probably in his mid 20 or lower can sit there and point the finger like that. If you want to blame the parents, blame them for not spending more time teaching them driving skills or spending more money on driving courses. Dont lump it all on just buying a car, how ignorant and misinformed of you!

If we want to talk about risks like betelgeuse had mentioned then look no further than this thread http://**********************/index.php?topic=92382.0 where forum members chronicle high speed risks. Maybe according to bravnik and Betelguese and others these were all 16 to 20 yr olds running amuck in their parental sourced MS3s. Stupidity takes all forms!
dude, I drove an 86 civic through high school.... you don't want to take stupid risks like passing people in that thing.... with 75hp factory rated, it's NOT going anywhere... all you care about is even keeping up with traffic... it did 90 at best on a good day! so don't say it's the driver not the car... if you drive a faster car, you would naturally have a psychological tendency to have a superiority complex and think you can just dust everyone on the road... but when you're behind the wheel of a piece of shit, you understand better not to fuck with people

[Bravnik]

But anyway, the kid was an accident waiting to happen, in anything he was driving.

Really, if it wasn't an MS3 it probably wouldn't be in the news, it's all to scare parents into not letting teenagers drive at all, whats the point in this particular story making it into the news anyway, I saw a serious accident (dead) on the 101 and it didn't make the news.

He was the son of a NHRA driver. That's enough for the news. Fast cars and Kids don't mix. Even kids that live eat and shit fast cars can be stupid and make mistakes.

Look at it this way. That kid grew up around really fast cars. I would be that just by being around it day in and day out he learned more than most kids his age about every aspect of cars.

However, all that experience meant nothing as he was 17 and behind the wheel of a car he should not have owned. He was a KID. 17 is still a CHILD (sorry I know you're 17 but its true) and think like a Child. He made a serious judgement of error and it cost him and his bother their lives.

I feel for his family.

[icespeed]

The only one really supporting you is Ice and I would not even want to think for a second he has any children. Also take a gander at what he got as a first car. His Dad was responsable, yours not so much.

If by responsible, you mean he gave me those words of advice? then yes you are correct. But as far as giving me my first car? second car? lol third car?

LOL!!!!

Let's just say (as if you couldn't tell already :)) that I am the black sheep of the fam. I've had to work, cheat, steal, sweat, bleed, tear and everything else to survive this far. Perhaps you can say that my parents did do a good job because I'm still alive and am definately independently minded.

Perhaps my defense of LC is some sort of sub-conscious way of fighting the same bs that they (including you, sir) have been trying hand all of us for thousands of years. Down with the system!

[CX-7owner]

He was the son of a NHRA driver. That's enough for the news. Fast cars and Kids don't mix. Even kids that live eat and shit fast cars can be stupid and make mistakes.

Look at it this way. That kid grew up around really fast cars. I would be that just by being around it day in and day out he learned more than most kids his age about every aspect of cars.

However, all that experience meant nothing as he was 17 and behind the wheel of a car he should not have owned. He was a KID. 17 is still a CHILD (sorry I know you're 17 but its true) and think like a Child. He made a serious judgement of error and it cost him and his bother their lives.

I feel for his family.

I'm not 17, also, child/teenager are different things.

[Bravnik]

so my internet crashed.... probably a good thing cuz it gave me a chance to calm down and not go off on you like I should. I figure you to be about 10 to 15 years older than me. That puts in the range of class of '81 to '86. Here are some of the top of the line cars available to teenagers back then. Whether your parents let you have one or not is another story:

1981 Camaro Z-28: 350 V8 175 bhp @ 4000 rpm, 275 lb-ft @ 2400 rpm.
1985 Mustang 5.0: 4V-302 V8 GT (T-5) 210 HP @ 4400 RPM 270 ft/lbs. @ 3200 RPM
1983 Trans Am: OHV V-8 305/5.0 190@4800 240@3200 4 bbl

Please do not bs these kids with their top of the line mazda 3's with a turbo. The ft-lbs are all the same. The higher HP is directly proportional to the higher rpm's now-a-days.

And do not attempt to attack me personally. It only vindicates my point of view. Don't use the word responsible either. I hate that word :)

LOL - Those cars would not stand a chance today with the MS3. What are you a fool? Your Dad did the right thing by you as the more you post it only shows your ignorance.

85 Mustang GT 15.9 1/4 91 MPH
81 Camaro Z28 16.1 1/4 0-60 in 8.2 secs....WOW Power Baby!
83 Trans Am - 19.7 1/4 - Nice

The MS3 is a 13Sec 1/4 STOCK. $500 will get you 12's easy. Hell CX-7's Soccer Mom SUV might even beat them :)

No child should be driving a car that fast as their FIRST car. Your Dad knew this....why are you so hard headed you don't. Obviously the apple fell very far from the tree in your case.

[TheMAN]

Jeez, another post and nothing said. Didn't mean to make you work hard.

Are you denying the most important fact already cited that teenagers in a certain age group are more likely to get into accidents? If you are, post those facts - those are what I'm looking for.

http://www.rmiia.org/Auto/Teens/Teen_Driving_Statistics.htm

After you do that we can continue.
when I was 17, I thought the statistics were bullshit and all the adults were just making up shit just to keep us from driving... graduated licensing, etc... but over the years on the road seeing the amount of shit everyone does, reading/seeing on the news that some kids died, etc, what are you going to believe after you got "aged"? the statistics are true! maybe not 100%, but it's enough to show that *most* kids do stupid shit... hell, even 21 year olds still do stupid shit and I know that for a fact because I have some good friends who are 21-22 and the shit they do just scares me... if you're a teen, stfu and live long enough and you'll see why they drop your insurance rates after 25.... it's no bullshit

don't argue, just listen, *most* older people know better... hell and old geezer will still tell every one of us on here what NOT to do, and we should listen!

[Bravnik]

If by responsible, you mean he gave me those words of advice? then yes you are correct. But as far as giving me my first car? second car? lol third car?

LOL!!!!

Let's just say (as if you couldn't tell already :)) that I am the black sheep of the fam. I've had to work, cheat, steal, sweat, bleed, tear and everything else to survive this far. Perhaps you can say that my parents did do a good job because I'm still alive and am definately independently minded.

Perhaps my defense of LC is some sort of sub-conscious way of fighting the same bs that they (including you, sir) have been trying hand all of us for thousands of years. Down with the system!

By responsible I mean he purchased you a great starter car in the 85 Escort in 95. He knew better than to give any you a 240HP car to begin with. He tried to instill his values on you but its obvious that he failed. I give him props for trying though. In the end, no matter how hard we try as parents, its in the kids hand to live and learn.

If you think for one second that I don't know that the only reason you're here is to be a ass, you're wrong.

[Bravnik]

I'm not 17, also, child/teenager are different things.

The only differance between a Child and a Teenager is that you might have a few hairs on your balls. Mentally you're about the same.

[Betelgeuse]

Some pics from the crash:


http://images.news14.com/media/2008/1/26/images/01wreck2.jpg http://images.news14.com/media/2008/1/26/images/02wreck_jetton2.jpg

http://media.charlotteobserver.com/smedia/2008/01/26/16/154-LNWRECK_02.standalone.prod_affiliate.57.JPG

[TheMAN]

Here’s my $.02

When i passed my motorcycle test in the UK i was still under 21. The government restricted all u21's with full motorcycle entitlement to 33hp. This meant you could still have any bike but it then had to be restricted to 33hp for 1 year- This was a direct result to kids killing themselves on fireblades and such.

With today’s cars being very quick i feel under 18's should be restricted in a similar way (16 is too young to drive anyway but thats another discussion).
Teenagers statistically do stupid things, yes they can do stupid things in a slow car too (i admit i was one of those) but the potential to cause harm/damage to themselves and others is reduced if speed is lowered.

I’m in my 30’s now and I look back, at the time I thought I was a great driver, now with hindsight I am just happy I made it. My first car had about 45bhp, it was far from a sports car but I would insist on driving it like one.

My wife is now pregnant with our first child, when he/she is 16 they are getting an old bronco. I have new found sorrow for the parents due to their loss, but I consider buying their kid a hot hatch to be a mistake.
my thoughts exactly, thank you! I'm just glad I made it through too... thinking about the crazy shit I did before just scares me

[jbiird317]

well i havent read this whole thread cuz its been a ton of repetition. Lets just keep the personal insults and attacks to a minimum. No matter what your opinion is of who is to blame for this situation, this kid made a poor decision and it cost him his life. this is def a tragedy, i feel sorry for this family and the victims family, lets try and have some respect.

[Chris Barnett]

Not reading the entire thread, but I'll point out that a 14 second wagon isn't that fast of a car, so calling the parents irresponsible is stupid.

[TheMAN]

The only people I truly feel sorry for is the 12 year old and the people in the H2.
agreed

[CX-7owner]

The only differance between a Child and a Teenager is that you might have a few hairs on your balls. Mentally you're about the same.
Really!

Are you sure you we're a teenager?
Did you skip that entire period?
Mental states are totally different, hormones are different, body growth etc..

It's not the same, I can be someones "child", but that's under different context.


adolescent: a juvenile between the onset of puberty and maturity


A child (plural: children), has two distinct meanings: the offspring, of any age, of two people, or an individual who has not yet reached puberty, though there might be a differing legal definition (see below).


A child is someone under the age of thirteen

[CantCMe]

damn...
http://media.charlotteobserver.com/smedia/2008/01/26/16/154-LNWRECK_02.standalone.prod_affiliate.57.JPG

Like I said, the parents (if they bought him the car) should have NOT gave him the car. If the child still lived with the parents NO MATTER HOW THEY GOT THE CAR should NOT have allowed them to drive. They still had control over this. They crossed over a damn double line...are they required to take driving classes in North Carolina?!?!

[Chris Barnett]

Since when is 14 seconds flat at 100 mph not fast? Relative to 80% of the cars on the road today, that's fast. And high 13s is very doable as people have done it repeatedly. Is it the fastest thing on the road? Of course not but that doesn't mean it's not fast.

As for the CX-7, it's biggest problems are its weight and transmission. The modern slushboxes are programmed for fuel economy and ride-comfort and will suck power like a big sponge. It's just not a good candidate for modding.



80% of the cars on the roads are SUV's and minivans and broken ass economy cars. Most people have no desire for anything with power.

14 seconds isn't fast. I have a couple 11 second FWD cars, and that is just the beginning part of "fast" in my book.

Especially these kids. Their dad raced a 4 second Top Fuel dragster. They probably had access to junior dragsters as they grew up, and some of those run the 1/8 mile equivalent of mid 11's. For 10-14 year olds.

[TheMAN]

It's the difference in speed. A POS slow car can't accelerate that fast. Who knows the hummer might've had more time to react or slow down. Have you driven a speed3 at all esp on the highway? If you haven't, you're in for a surprise. It can accelerate to 100mph in the blink of an eye.
yeah, I remember when the ms3 first came out, I took it out for a spin as soon as it got off the truck at work.... I was doing 80 down the side street in a blink of an eye! yes I knew I was going stupid fast just by going through 2 gears, but as soon as I looked down and saw 80, I slowed the fuck down.... the car scared me at what it could do so quickly... it was a beast that needed lots of restraint as well as time to learn to drive safely... needless to say, it's a car too much for a kid

[CantCMe]

Not reading the entire thread, but I'll point out that a 14 second wagon isn't that fast of a car, so calling the parents irresponsible is stupid.

We're not sure where they got the car, but if you felt your child was irresponsible, or kill himself in a car crash, would you buy him a MS3?

[icespeed]

By responsible I mean he purchased you a great starter car in the 85 Escort in 95.

He didn't buy it for me... he made darn sure that I worked for it myself. I bought that car with my own hard earned (if McD's is hard) money.


In the end, no matter how hard we try as parents, its in the kids hand to live and learn.

And, like that ancient greek guy, I've geniously gotten you to prove my point. It is not the parents fault.



If you think for one second that I don't know that the only reason you're here is to be a ass, you're wrong.

Just trying to get people to remember that we were all there once and not every kid is deserving of the stereotypes we so generously hand out.

btw, those pictures make me sick to my stomach. Those kids never had a chance.

[TheMAN]

so you are saying that a HEAD on collision at 70 and 70 s not as deadly as one at 80 and 80?
If in both cases someone dies, what is the difference?
how come I have a feeling you haven't taken physics class yet?

[Betelgeuse]

80% of the cars on the roads are SUV's and minivans and broken ass economy cars. Most people have no desire for anything with power.

14 seconds isn't fast. I have a couple 11 second FWD cars, and that is just the beginning part of "fast" in my book.

Especially these kids. Their dad raced a 4 second Top Fuel dragster. They probably had access to junior dragsters as they grew up, and some of those run the 1/8 mile equivalent of mid 11's. For 10-14 year olds.

Using your logic, 11 seconds isn't fast either... compared to top fuelers or jet cars. Hell even they're aren't fast... compared to an f-15. Even an f-15 wants nothing on the space shuttle..... It's all RELATIVE. 14s is fast relative to 16 and 17s which covers a lot of the driving public.


Also what their dad raced on a DRAGSTRIP has little to do with them being able to control a compact wagon at high speeds on the streets nor does it make them any less prone to making bad judgments. On the streets there are also people of various skills driving as well. Junior dragsters?lol, cmon man Junior dragsters go in a straight line and they're built just for that. Now if they raced on a road course or auto-crossed that would be different.

[RODSCALIP5]

damn...
http://media.charlotteobserver.com/smedia/2008/01/26/16/154-LNWRECK_02.standalone.prod_affiliate.57.JPG

Like I said, the parents (if they bought him the car) should have NOT gave him the car. If the child still lived with the parents NO MATTER HOW THEY GOT THE CAR should NOT have allowed them to drive. They still had control over this. They crossed over a damn double line...are they required to take driving classes in Cali?!?!


This didn't happen in California.

[CantCMe]

This didn't happen in California.

I stand corrected...do they take classes in North Carolina?

[Derek88]

I havent read all of these 15 pages, so I dont know if an argument is going on or not, but I hate to see a CB MS3 from NC has to bite the bust like that, and the family for having to go through this.

Some kids are dumb. But kids or adults, we ALL want to see what our vehicles are capable of. Some choose the wrong time and place.

I'm a kid. When I was 16, I had a good job and I wanted a "new" car. I bought (under my parents' names) a 1999 LS1 Trans Am. My parents thought this was too much power for a 16 year old and told me I could not drive it ALONE until 8 months after I bought it. During those 8 months, my garage-kept baby accrued some mods and by the time I could drive it, it had to have around 400bhp.

As a 19 year old, I bought my Speed this July under my own name this time. I get on it from time to time, but I'm not retarded.

Like I said, some kids are dumb when it comes to cars. I respect them which is reflected in my car itself and in my gas mileage.

[Kooldino]

My condolences to the family.

Should a 17 year old be driving a Speed 3? Probably not. Regardless, it sucks that this happened.

[FrigginGLI]

Sucks, this is why insurance is so high for drivers under 25. :(

[lc_MS3]

Feel free to defend your parents as that is honerable and shows your love. We all have our on opinions. Your parents have theirs and I have mine. The differance is that most parents will agree that giving a kid a sports car at 16 is irresponsible. Just ask around. Or look at the majority of the people in this post to get an idea. The only one really supporting you is Ice and I would not even want to think for a second he has any children. Also take a gander at what he got as a first car. His Dad was responsable, yours not so much.

You're 16. Try to remember this post 30 years from now when you have kids of your own. See if you feel the same as you do now.

Coming from someone fighting with a 16 year old on the internet, my father and I have decided to ignore your advice on parenting. And if I had a 16 year old kid right now (obviously if I was older) and he wanted a MS3, and if was he was a responsible hard working kid, I would have no problem getting it for him. Sorry if your parents wouldn't let you get what you wanted when you were 16, or even if for some reason you feel your MAZDA is a nicer car than it is and are appalled that teenagers also have it. (headshake)Maybe you are jealous, but in any case to blame a parent for a kids action would be similar to blaming a kid for his parents divorce. You should buy a soul and feel bad for them. How would you feel if your kid died in a car accident and people blamed you for him running a red light. You have no right to insult my father or my family for that mater. Maybe where you live in bum f*** nowhere kids are stupid. But in my area we care about our cars enough to not let them get fucked up. Hell, I probably keep better care of my car then you.


how come I have a feeling you haven't taken physics class yet?

And no I haven't, your right. The thing I was trying to say is that A DEATH IS A DEATH. If the kid hit a wall and died, he IS STILL DEAD.



Once again, I thank Jbiird for pointing out that we should keep the kids and his family in our prayers, not go and lynch his parents.

[creina1221]

I havn't read all of the posts on this, but I am seeing several comments about the fact that "it was such a fast car" playing a heavy factor into this accident. I just want to drop a little comment regarding that. Working in the insurance claims field, both office and field work, these types of accidents occur more often with 'average' cars than they do with "fast" cars. I'm sure the fact that it was in fact a fast car may have had an influence on the boys decision making, however, these kinds of accidents happen all of the time, and they happen in pick up trucks, suv's, old cars, new cars, motorcyles.

This specific accident is very unfortunate, if just one of so many factors were different, the kids may have survived. Had the other veh not been a hummer for instance. The hummer clearly sustained heavy sway frame damage but its' a full frame vehicle, not necessarily designed to take an impact. it does have crush zones, but not like one of another unibdy vehicle. Not saying they would've survived for sure, but definitely more of a chance.

I just don't feel the responsibility can't but put soley on the parents as they didn't make the decision to go left of center, Our MS3's are fast cars, but they're also safe. Had they been in an 89 Lebaron (like my first car when I was 16), they could've been killed in a deer crash. Clearly in this accident, 6 airbags didnt mean much but it's just a mixture of unfortunate circumstances which lead to devestating results, and it's a shame one poor decision lead to such an ending.

[happy and angry]

I am not going to read all 200 some posts in this thread. What reading I have done through this thread, in some ways, depresses me. This was a tragic accident that didn't need to happen, but what I am going to say regarding it isn't me blaming anyone for the choices that lead to this accident.

This accident may not have had anything to do with the level of performance of the vehicle (I suspect it did), but this kid still had too much car for being such a young driver. There are reasons young drivers get in more accidents, and it usually has to do with experiences and decision making. The performance of this vehicle makes every single one of us want to dick around on the road more than we should, but the thing that comes with age and experience is knowing that there is a time and a place for that sort of thing.

Maybe this makes me sound old and crotchety at 26, but for every single young driver (20 and under) reading this thread: ask most people on here 25 and up "Would you have wanted an MS3 when you were 17?" The answer? Yes. Followed by "But it's probably best that I didn't have one until I was older." Every single young guy thinks "It can't happen to me. Plus, I'm a good driver, I know what I'm doing. I've taken courses. My reaction speed is fantastic, too! I'll be fine." Every single one. I remember being that dumb. Most people on here probably do, too. Maybe it's even true in your case (although that is extremely unlikely). The problem is that stuff usually doesn't even matter. Driving is a bunch of constantly changing variables, and you do not have control of all of them. That's the difference between a new driver and one who has been on the road for 10 years: knowing that as good as you might (MIGHT) be, you do not control everything going on on the road.

The driver of the MS3 in this accident obviously didn't have the skill sets he needed to survive on the road. He didn't have the maturity or the experience necessary to make good choices. I think the vehicle likely contributed to the bad decisions he made, and he took a risk. He obviously thought he'd be okay passing as he did (for whatever reason), and he was wrong. He paid the ultimate price because of a dumb choice that most of us will admit, if we're honest, was exactly like one we might have made in the head of the moment back when we were 17 and showing off for our friends.

A fast vehicle requires a level of responsibility and self control you don't need when you're in a 10 year old escort or Z22 Cavalier or whatever other relatively sedate first drive most of us had. Responsibility and self control that I don't think most young drivers have (and accident statistics support this).

I've said this before and I will say this again, to everyone on here: be safe, and be smart. For all we know that guy might have had a screen name on here and posted on here occasionally. The sooner you learn that you're not as skilled/safe/invincible behind the wheel as you think you are, the better.

[Hyun]

geez.. this kid is annoying. First thing is first, your family owned porsche,vette etc and your bro drives Z...Kid.. your not in the majority. Your rich, probably upper middle or upper class. Of course you dont know that because your still kid. If your considered poor.. then i wonder what im considered as.

Wow.. saved 5k when you were 16 huh, that's impressive.

Your still kid, you still dont know shit, you will make mistake and learn. Let's just hope that mistake wont be as tragic as this one.

[dkswim]

wow 16 pages in 2 days. sad story. as a child i was handed down an old beater truck im glad i grew up on it all 103 hoorsepower at the flywheel. but i have bought a paid for two cars now and you have soo much more appreaciation and a little more carefull when you have that monthlw payment. i wont lie i do enjoy some spirited driving every now and then but only when trafic and road conditions alow i guess thats also from being older.

[Witchdoktor]

geez.. this kid is annoying.

no shit. if his posts weren't so long they'd be easy to skip over

solution (http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/profile.php?do=addlist&userlist=ignore&u=46949)

[Witchdoktor]

“…We both talked to him, and … I told him ‘My dad doesn’t like me riding with you because the way you drive, and he’s afraid you’re either going to kill someone one day or kill yourself in an accident, and today it happens,” said Jon Herbert’s friend Mike Long. “It’s just weird how things happen like that sometimes.”

you guys defending the parents are missing the point. the above quote is point in case. the kid talking to the reporter wouldn't be in a situation like this because he has responsible parents. they didn't allow him to step into the MS3 with this kid. they saw a potential danger to their kid and removed it. that's what responsible parents, they limit risks and dangers to their kids.

[CantCMe]

“…We both talked to him, and … I told him ‘My dad doesn’t like me riding with you because the way you drive, and he’s afraid you’re either going to kill someone one day or kill yourself in an accident, and today it happens,” said Jon Herbert’s friend Mike Long. “It’s just weird how things happen like that sometimes.”

you guys defending the parents are missing the point. the above quote is point in case. the kid talking to the reporter wouldn't be in a situation like this because he has responsible parents. they didn't allow him to step into the MS3 with this kid. they saw a potential danger to their kid and removed it. that's what responsible parents, they limit risks and dangers to their kids.

Soo damn true...

[knowledge007]

Not what i meant. I was trying to point out that a MS3 is not a super expensive sports car that few can afford. At 20K it is reasonable for a teenager to afford. What i was referring to was when someone said that "MS3's were faster than 90% of other cars" which is not true.



I will be the first to tell you I don't know it all, but once again to say my parents are foolish is ignorant. My parents let me get this car because i am responsible, and have never liked to show off. My older broth on the other hand got a civic because they knew he would show off. So each case is individual. As for the kid, if he made a decision to cross a double yellow line, he would have done it in any car he was in, Mazda, Honda, or Kia. And to say my parents fail is quite opposite of the truth.
But if having a son in college, with a 3.5GPA and a good paying job, a son in high school with a 3.0GPA, also with a job, another son in elementary school. Both of them have 40+ hour a week jobs. Not to mention neither me nor any of my brothers smoke, drink, or do any drugs. Not to mention my mom is fighting Stage 4 breast cancer. Far from failing in life. (scratch)???

Two questions...kid...

How do you hold a gpa of that sort with a 40+ hour job? Thats got to be alot of down time at your job for studying...

Two, what do you consider a "good paying job"?


Just curious...