Bob Lutz: CAFE 35 will increase the cost of GMs by $6000

[TinmanMS6]

Bob Lutz, Vice Chairman of GM, said, "This is going to be a net average of cost of $6,000 per vehicle which will have to be passed onto the consumer. The good news is it won't come all at once, because 35 mpg doesn't kick in all at once." Lutz goes on to claim that the average American will be forced to hold on to their cars longer, also increasing the cost of used vehicles.

[mikeyb]

They should just add the $6K onto all of there trucks. I'm a big truck hater.

[TinmanMS6]

It's going to cost a lot more than $6k to get all of their trucks under the 35mpg bar. I'm pretty sure that's where the average part comes in.

Still, I'm calling BS.

[evilmonkeyMSP]

Good thing I have absolutely no interest in buying a GM...

[nealric]

Only if the consumer is stupid and insists on big SUV's

Actually, if they just used smaller engines and made cars lighter, the cost of cars would go DOWN, not up and still get the 35mpg.

[mikeyb]

Good thing I have absolutely no interest in buying a GM...

I have no interest in buying a GM truck but would consider a Pontiac G8 GT.

[TinmanMS6]

Only if the consumer is stupid and insists on big SUV's

Actually, if they just used smaller engines and made cars lighter, the cost of cars would go DOWN, not up and still get the 35mpg.

If you're talking about just building smaller cars, then yes, that's true. If you're talking about reducing the weight of a car without making it smaller, then no, not cheaper.

[nealric]

I mean just making smaller cars as opposed to SUVs

[Powerslave]

yeah but you can look at like a toeilet... people have to flush twice, if there where no trucks to move stuff then people would have to use there cars to drive back and forth so many times...its like flushing twice after going poo....lol

[TinmanMS6]

Problem is, most people on the road drive around with one or two people in a car. Still, if you have to haul more people, there's always the Mazda5.

[evilmonkeyMSP]

problem is, 90% of the people who own trucks/SUVs have never or will never use them for their intended purpose...so many people like them for their false sense of security of a bigger vehicle...

[Powerslave]

What may sovle the gas issue in the near future.. I read that Texas Instruments has developed a battery the lasts as long as todays lythium batteries but only takes 4-5 minutes to fully charge. The technology is here, they said in 3-5 years this will cuase a revolution in hybrid-pluggin cars, you won't even need an engine cuase you can plug in your car and its fully charged in 5 minutes..

[Rogue]

I think there should be a required permit to purchas a Truck/SUV. You have to show due cause to own one. Having a kid is not a viable reason to own an SUV that weighs so much it doesn't fall under EPA regulations for gas mileage (Ford Expedition L). At my work we have 4 Suburbans, a Diesel Excursion, a Silverado, and a Taurus. Most of the time, the vehicle only carries one person, but there's tons of equipment in the back of the 'Burban.

Is it the R&D that's going to add the cost? Or just more expensive parts?

[TinmanMS6]

Is it the R&D that's going to add the cost? Or just more expensive parts?

Dunno. Bob's being vague because he doesn't like CAFE. I think he's just throwing a fit.

[Rogue]

i'm not too thrilled about it either. There are 3 parties involved here: The Auto Industry, the Oil Company, and the consumer. Why should all the weight be put on only the Auto Industry. One senator suggested putting a tax on gas to force people to use less. I know it'd suck, but I'm sure people would think twice before buying a gas guzzling SUV.

[mikeyb]

Tax the use of gas.

[TinmanMS6]

I have no interest in buying a GM truck but would consider a Pontiac G8 GT.

Missed this earlier, somehow. Agreed. I'd also hit a CTS-V silly. Neither one is going to hit 35mpg any time soon, either. Fortunately, the V-series Caddies are low enough volume to not put a ding in GM's CAFE numbers.

[TinmanMS6]

i'm not too thrilled about it either. There are 3 parties involved here: The Auto Industry, the Oil Company, and the consumer. Why should all the weight be put on only the Auto Industry. One senator suggested putting a tax on gas to force people to use less. I know it'd suck, but I'm sure people would think twice before buying a gas guzzling SUV.


Tax the use of gas.

I agree. If they upped taxes on gas, there'd be a turnaround much faster than this legislation is going to affect. Unfortunately, increased gas prices drive up the cost of all consumer goods due to the increased cost of transportation of said goods. That would not be good for this country's economy.

[CX-7owner]

Most of the people that buy those gas guzzlers don't really care about extra expenses..(that's why they're getting that Expedition EL) or they would just uncheck a few boxes on the option list.

[MakeMeGoFast]

its the 70's all over again........except its not muscle cars, its suv's

[TinmanMS6]

Finally managed to find some numbers by manufacturer. They're from 2004, but it's something.
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/cafe/docs/Summary-Fuel-Economy-Pref-2004.pdf

2004 numbers are on page 7.

No wonder Honda's not sweating CAFE numbers. Their import fleet is at 37.4mpg and their domestic fleet is at 31.1. Hell, their light truck average (24.5 mpg) is pretty close to GM's (28.8 mpg domestic/29.3 mpg import) and Ford's (26.3 mpg domestic/27.7 mpg import) car fleet numbers . No wonder Bob's shitting bricks.

[ChopstickHero]

an SUV/truck at 35 mpg? my ass. the hybrid SUV only get like 20mpg. lol

[Rogue]

i believe the average of all manufactured cars/trucks/suvs have to average 35mpg. But GM sells alot of trucks, so that hurts their average. Whereas Honda sells mostly cars that get great gas mileage, they're better off.

[seanmcsean]

I never understood the point of SUV's..

Station wagons ftw.

[MakeMeGoFast]

Its the "its safer" mentality. and its a trend

[TinmanMS6]

i believe the average of all manufactured cars/trucks/suvs have to average 35mpg. But GM sells alot of trucks, so that hurts their average. Whereas Honda sells mostly cars that get great gas mileage, they're better off.

At the moment, a manufacturer's truck fleet barely has to crack 20 mpg to pass CAFE regulations. That is why we have fleets of SUVs all over the roads. Manufacturers saw the loophole and Super-sized all of their wagons.

[turbolife]

I never understood the point of SUV's..

Station wagons ftw.

Agreed! Give me an A6 avant over any SUV anyday.


Its the "its safer" mentality. and its a trend

Which is funny, because studies have shown that to be false (not your statement, the thought that they are safer)

[CX-7owner]

Agreed! Give me an A6 avant over any SUV anyday.



Which is funny, because studies have shown that to be false (not your statement, the thought that they are safer)
Just on some SUV models that proved to be correct, and just in controlled tests.

[jred321]

like people needed another reason not to buy a GM

[turbolife]

Just on some SUV models that proved to be correct, and just in controlled tests.

Right. I was talking more real-world accident avoidence, etc, etc...

[Raynman]

I never understood the point of SUV's..

Station wagons ftw.

Amen, brother. AWD sportwagons will save us all.

[zoomzone]

My observation has been that those who buy inefficient SUVs don't really care about the MPG because they can afford to absorb the cost. What I don't understand is regular blue collar guys who don't make a lot of money insist on driving full size trucks (there's a lot of those people in Oklahoma).

I also have a relative who's always driven chevy tahoe or susburban. They recenlty got a minivan, and they were amazed at how much easier it is to use with their kids, even though I've been telling them that same thing for years. It also gets 25 MPG, instead of 14, like their tahoe.

These people need to drive a car in Europe, and they'll drop their SUVs fast. I filled up a Ford focus in the Netherlands, and it cost me almost $70! And that was almost 2 years ago.

[jbiird317]

well its tough to fit 20 sheets of drywall into a sport wagon or sedan...

i have a chevy 2500HD as a second car, i maybe get 15 mpg on the highway, probly 10 mpg around town. I really only drive it when the weather is bad or if I need to haul something, but these gas taxes that you are all suggesting would def be a killer to the average consumer, not to mention most construction companies (or other comp's that require heavy equipment hauling).

[jred321]

having a truck as a secondary vehicle is great. it comes in handy a lot. using it as your commuter vehicle is when it doesn't make sense (like both of my parents, 1 envoy 1 silverado, both commute 30 miles each way). if a person can't afford 2 vehicles then on the rare occassion they actually need a truck (construction projects, moving, etc...) they can always either borrow one or rent one. right now people are buying a vehicle that fits what they do 5% of the time and isn't good for the other 95% of the time when they should in fact buy the car that meets their needs 95% of the time

don't contsruction and other companies that actually need trucks for business get subsidies or tax credits or something along those lines? plus they'll just increase their prices since they are, after all, a business

[jbiird317]

don't contsruction and other companies that actually need trucks for business get subsidies or tax credits or something along those lines? plus they'll just increase their prices since they are, after all, a business

i cant speak for the subsidies or tax credit because most of the work i have done is just small sub-contracting work, but if they raise the prices of their labor that affects all of us as well.

[TinmanMS6]

Yup. As I said earlier, more expensive gas makes virtually all goods and services in this country more expensive. I'm sure some sort of program could be worked out to allow companies to write off gas taxes paid in a year, though, making it not so painful for them, and, consequently, the consumer.

[NVP5White]

well its tough to fit 20 sheets of drywall into a sport wagon or sedan...

i have a chevy 2500HD as a second car, i maybe get 15 mpg on the highway, probly 10 mpg around town. I really only drive it when the weather is bad or if I need to haul something, but these gas taxes that you are all suggesting would def be a killer to the average consumer, not to mention most construction companies (or other comp's that require heavy equipment hauling).

This is a valid point; however, you don't need a 2500HD to get through bad weather or to haul stuff (unless what you're hauling is a 40' powerboat, which itself is a MPG disaster).

CAFE was the only politically viable step since it wasn’t "new" legislation, rather just an update to existing regulation. And BTW, the Feds took decades to raise it at all...the auto manufactures should have seen this coming since the new MPG is long over due.

Unfortunately, CAFE is not the right answer. I think consumption-based costs are the most direct, fair and effective regulation for all fossil fuels. Gas Guzzler tax increases and a gas tax increase would eventually lead to larger demand for smaller, fuel efficient cars. At that point GM, et al would be more then happy to deliver a cost-competitive small car.

So I see a conflict in the general make-up of today’s automotive products. Too many cars are trying to be too many things to the buyer. IMO, I want a car for commuting/shopping/travel which is comfortable and gets good gas mileage. This car DOES NOT have to go 0-60 in 5 seconds, nor pull .90G in the skidpad. If I want a performance or heavy duty utility, I can buy a used vehicle which meets those requirements. Specialization of tools is a known engineering principle used to reduce complexity, and increase efficiency and reliability. The same philosophy can be applied to the auto industry.

Oh wait; it has been applied to the auto industry. Look at Europe in general and Italy specifically. Don’t tell me Italians don't love their sports cars, because they do. But they realize a Ferrari should be driven on Sunday and the Smart ForTwo the rest of the week.

[Rogue]

can i get a Amen?!

[jbiird317]

This is a valid point; however, you don't need a 2500HD to get through bad weather or to haul stuff

but if i dont have the big truck then how will other drivers know how MACHO i am!? haha jk man, I see your point...

I am pretty much what the auto industry is trying to get rid of (performance oriented car and heavy duty truck) and i can understand that. My situation is that Im single so I have a fairly liquid income and then also my commute to work is only about 5 miles, so gas economy isnt something I worry about too much. I know taht this will change over the next few years, but then I would have to re-evaluate my car situation

[MakeMeGoFast]

I'll just buy one of these when they come out in the US, although driver fitment might be an issue at 6"4 280lbs

http://archive.cardesignnews.com/autoshows/2002/paris/highlights/images/smart-roadster0648.jpg

[TinmanMS6]

but if i dont have the big truck then how will other drivers know how MACHO i am!? haha jk man, I see your point...

I am pretty much what the auto industry is trying to get rid of (performance oriented car and heavy duty truck) and i can understand that. My situation is that Im single so I have a fairly liquid income and then also my commute to work is only about 5 miles, so gas economy isnt something I worry about too much. I know taht this will change over the next few years, but then I would have to re-evaluate my car situation

Performance cars don't have to get bad fuel economy...
http://www.news-blogs.com/_images/auto/lotus_elise_2006.jpg
...you just have to add lightness.

21 mpg city/27 mpg hwy

[jbiird317]

Performance cars don't have to get bad fuel economy...


yeah my car gets 22 city, 30 hwy... which is not bad gas mileage, but its not 35 by any means

[jred321]

i get ~20mph city, 23mpg highway and my car is in no way light. corvettes get what, 25mpg highway? the civic si is probably close to 30mpg. fun cars can still be around they just can't make up a majority of an auto manufacturer's sales so they may cut back production numbers on them and consequently charge more

[MakeMeGoFast]

I remember reading about a 400hp vw rabbit that claimed it could get 40mpg. Which is entirely feasible, with a power/economy tune

[NVP5White]

Yup. As I said earlier, more expensive gas makes virtually all goods and services in this country more expensive. I'm sure some sort of program could be worked out to allow companies to write off gas taxes paid in a year, though, making it not so painful for them, and, consequently, the consumer.

This is a straw man argument because it assumes that businesses are already operating at maximum fuel efficiency. I know there are many (millions?) of trucks that could become minivans tomorrow if a business thought it was necessary. I know there are thousands of trucks and vans that could become cars given the same circumstance. The market will adjust according to macro economic principles...

Could prices rise? Of course
Could people loose their jobs? Sure, but it happens for because of mismanagement everyday...
Could usage decrease? Yes
Would percentage of income spent on gasoline stay relatively the same? Probably

[MakeMeGoFast]

Could prices rise? Of course
Could people loose their jobs? Sure, but it happens for because of mismanagement everyday...
Could usage decrease? Yes
Would percentage of income spent on gasoline stay relatively the same? Probably



Hey hey hey, I don't appreciate your logic. lol

[dominoy2k1]

eh i love my silverado 4x4.

[TinmanMS6]

This is a straw man argument because it assumes that businesses are already operating at maximum fuel efficiency. I know there are many (millions?) of trucks that could become minivans tomorrow if a business thought it was necessary. I know there are thousands of trucks and vans that could become cars given the same circumstance. The market will adjust according to macro economic principles...

Could prices rise? Of course
Could people loose their jobs? Sure, but it happens for because of mismanagement everyday...
Could usage decrease? Yes
Would percentage of income spent on gasoline stay relatively the same? Probably


I'm not talking about just work trucks and vans. I'm talking about the trucks that haul goods across the country for distribution. When it costs more to move stuff, it's going to cost more to buy it.

[icespeed]

Here's the problem.... when the government does something to "help", it is normally against big business. Big business easily pawns it off on the consumer. If we skip the middle man and immediately go to the consumer, via additional gas taxes, the consumer will continue to pay for the gas. The oil company still turns its same profit. And GM and the others still charge the 6k more for their cars for no reason.

And then they do come out with 55mpg cars. So we, the consumer, say, "great I can drive more now" and we do. In the end, we still spend more money.

There are, and have been for that matter, plenty of alternative options (anyone remember gas-o-hol) to our "energy crisis". However, the lobbyists have come up with some pretty good marketing schemes for us to continue to purchase 100 year old technology in the name of the environment, in the name of acceleration, in the name of our country, in the name of tradition.

[NVP5White]

I'm not talking about just work trucks and vans. I'm talking about the trucks that haul goods across the country for distribution. When it costs more to move stuff, it's going to cost more to buy it.

Well, yes truck transportation systems will get more expensive. But aren't trains much more efficient at long-haul transportation anyway? I know our comingled-goods shipping system prefers the flexability of truck-based transport, but its hardly what I call necessary for the efficient function of the economy.

[icespeed]

Well, yes truck transportation systems will get more expensive. But aren't trains much more efficient at long-haul transportation anyway? I know our comingled-goods shipping system prefers the flexability of truck-based transport, but its hardly what I call necessary for the efficient function of the economy.

everything is hub-economics now-a-days.

[Raynman]

Performance cars don't have to get bad fuel economy...
...you just have to add lightness.
21 mpg city/27 mpg hwy

Yep


Corvettes get what, 25mpg highway?

Even better. It's not unusual for Corvettes to hit mid 30's (or more) mpg on highway cruising.

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/showthread.php?t=1465549