Broken 3rd gear x 3

[djarkitek]

hm,mmm

[shane02pro5]

Hmm?

[Signature Sound]

hm,mmm

what does that mean?

[boostdprotegelx]

what does that mean?

means they're interested.

[Signature Sound]

It's really not too bad I'm sure it's less than your stereo setup!!!


yea, i just wish i dint buy the stereo first. hey dino, wanna trade? lol

[Kooldino]

Lol.

[garym0510]

how do you know if you pop a gear my fifth gear has been hard to get in for the past few days like i have to almost slam it in at 3500 plus rpms

[Kooldino]

That's a synchro issue. If the gear was busted, it would make a terrible grinding noise all of a sudden, and it would be loud. You'd also never be able to get into that gear.

[shane02pro5]

Also know that the tranny doesn't have to be pulled to fix your 5th gear problem. Just pull the wheel off and the fender liner to get the black cover off and there it is!

[Kooldino]

^Yep.

BTW, my gearbox has quieted down quite a bit.

[shane02pro5]

^Glad to hear!

[FuLcRuM]

Shane, you got the complete 1-4 setup right?
what all did you have to purchase in addition to the gear set? bearrings, syncros, etc. etc. and how much for all the parts if you don't mind.

I can't hear any gear noise in your vids, just the exhaust. Mine is probably just as loud so that's very livable.

[shane02pro5]

Yes without the pinion crown wheel option and double synchros on 1-3.

Everything was around $4k

Double synchros Gerard ordered from Japan for around $350 for 3
1 single synchro
2 shaft nuts
I replaced both shiftforks
all new bearings except for the lsd which are only a year old
replaced the black oil funnel thing mounted to the case that I had rigged from when the spout for 5th & rev. broke off the last time.

Also my bank charged me $140 total for currency conversion bullshit!

[FuLcRuM]

Thanks, that's pretty much what I figured.

Why no double syncro on 4?

I want to do almost the exact same setup, just double syncro on 1-4.

[shane02pro5]

I was too impatient to wait since I had my motor on the way and they only had single 4th in stock ready to ship.

[Packerfan]

Dana is it to early to write inside joke, LOL. Any sets left motor build went great, broke third yesterday.

[Signature Sound]

hey guys, so any updates? I finally got my ride going strong. turns out all the problems i was having had to do with the map sensor being on a plugged off vacuum port. So now it pulls so hard the ACT street clutch is slipping like crazy in third. probably a good thing. rather that than a broken gear. i am going to upgrade to a 3+ Spec, so i am going to need some gears too. i read this entire thread. is shanes set up the way to go but with double syncros on 4th? i want to shoot for 375, but dont want anything to break. also, is there anyone that i can trust to put the tranny together (hint hint dino...)???

prices, criticism, time frame... all would be greatly appreciated!

[Mazdaspeed2oo35]

hey guys, so any updates? I finally got my ride going strong. turns out all the problems i was having had to do with the map sensor being on a plugged off vacuum port. So now it pulls so hard the ACT street clutch is slipping like crazy in third. probably a good thing. rather that than a broken gear. i am going to upgrade to a 3+ Spec, so i am going to need some gears too. i read this entire thread. is shanes set up the way to go but with double syncros on 4th? i want to shoot for 375, but dont want anything to break. also, is there anyone that i can trust to put the tranny together (hint hint dino...)???

prices, criticism, time frame... all would be greatly appreciated!



Your ACT Performance Street Cluth is slipping? What ACT Pressure Plate you are using? i mean that's very very weird that an ACT Performance Street Clutch is Slipping, i honestly wouldn't change an ACT for any Spec clutch.... also what numbers are you putting down, i mean slipping third gear on a ACT Performance Street Disk is very very hard...

[iracemine]

subscribes or joins club(yupnope)

[justanothermp5]

uhh i wouldnt go with spec, i have there stage one and i dont like it at all
doesnt slip but chatters like a motherfucker
i have to ease it out just so it doesnt make the noise but even then it still shakes a little

i dont have any knowledge of the stage 3, mine was a stage 1

[Maxx Mazda]

I run the stage 3+ and it grabs well, but it's kinda "grippy" for street use. You and your passengers get used to it quick enough though.

[iracemine]

so does street unit still stock these third gears???

and I track only so i want dog engagement (straight cut) with double synchros????

also the gears are not right anymore either so possibly forks too???

[junya1985]

so does street unit still stock these third gears???

and I track only so i want dog engagement (straight cut) with double synchros????

also the gears are not right anymore either so possibly forks too???

talk to kooldino see what he has in stock

[shane02pro5]

Dog engagement has no synchros! You want straight cut with double synchros.

[iracemine]

Dog engagement has no synchros! You want straight cut with double synchros.

ahh ok then thank you. asking if in stock now.

[Real Kill]

How much Mazda G-series dog engagement gearset 1st-4th and billet crown wheel and pinion shaft

[shane02pro5]

Send a pm to kooldino and he can get you a quote.

[Kooldino]

Got one set of needle roller bearing gears in stock!

[haulin'A$$]

I have a third gen tranny with ~106k on it and for about the last 10K when i upshift to third there is a ever-so-slight grind and i have not been able to diagnose the problem. I changed out the fluid to royal purple 75w-90 (3qt) about 3k miles before the problem started. I'm thinking its the beginning of the end but if anyone has any input I'd much appreciate it.(hand)

[junya1985]

I have a third gen tranny with ~106k on it and for about the last 10K when i upshift to third there is a ever-so-slight grind and i have not been able to diagnose the problem. I changed out the fluid to royal purple 75w-90 (3qt) about 3k miles before the problem started. I'm thinking its the beginning of the end but if anyone has any input I'd much appreciate it.(hand)

send kooldino he can help you out he good with protege pretty much you can say the man with protege

[iracemine]

royal purp is terrible.

[MakeMeGoFast]

royal purp is terrible.

but it is good for dying parts a nice shade of purple

[Speed3.5]

which/what car does the 5th gear thats .69 ratio comes from ???(GTX?)

SHane - can you get a pic of the stuff you got from PAR + them installed ??

and i'm assuming shane you have the stock/GTX 5th gear right ?

Also you got the stock gear ratio or custom ones(if so can you post the ratios)

how's the shifting, since no one spoke about this small detail ??


Dino- using MT90 won't be an issue for the gears right , since i have some of it already ??

The main thing that I'm considering this is the custom gear ratio w/o extra $$$,

Dino - how come you went stock ratio ??

Very tempting but more money !!! , got to think well before i jump in for this.

[mardarati]

Sound like a super charger/shifting very smooth /curently running 359 to the wheel at 14 psi have no problems with them the real test will be when i put 20 psi to them then i will see.My stock tranny would have already lost 3rd

[axisboldaslove]

well if ne one needs replacement parts for fucking cheap for their trannys i have some stuff for sale check my signature for my FS thread...cheap prices too

[Speed3.5]

Hey ppl + PAR (guy)

what you think for STREET MSP with ~300-400whp gear ratios:

Tire : 215-45-17
axle ratio : 4.11
RedLine RPM: 6500 7000
First 2.8 41 45 (mph)
2nd 1.6 72 78 (mhp)
3rd 1.2 97 104 (mhp)
4th .9 129 139 (mhp)
5th .7 166 178 (mhp)

I was going based on two things, the power increase at each redline rpm point to the next was going to be less then the previous one which is around 30 mhp difference + droping rpms for each shifting gear where the next one won't drop too much but won't be too high either.
This though makes the car stay on 3rd gear on local rd (25mhp limit) and drive over 72 mhp at around 3k rpm on 5th gear.

Any opinion's/suggestions/ etc , pls discuss.

[Kooldino]

I wouldn't go with that long of a gear unless you were making closer to 400whp.

If you were making 300who, I'd go a tad shorter.

Longer-than-stock gears is what these cars need though. It's the only thing that will allow them to hook up on street tires.

[shane02pro5]

3.11:1@6500=36mph
1.83:1@6500=62mph
1.24:1@6500=91mph
0.90:1@6500=125 mph

This is what I have off the shelf. When I do the quaife par output shaft crownwheel & 5th I'm going to try a bit higher ratio final drive to bump it up a bit.

[Speed3.5]

Dino - my MSP will be running 400whp but I will have 2-3 maps w/ diff. PSI/whp so I don't beat on it DD.

I based the first two gears identical/close to what you posted previously and changed the rest as i described.
I made the rest a bit more taller so there's more RPM after changing gears "based" on redline point to the next gear and so on.

shane - are you going to change the first 2 gear ratios and the final drive would be 4.11 right ?

EDIT: Those gear ratios I've posted will not be for sure the gear ratio that i'll end up getting so still in RnD kinda stage.

[Maxx Mazda]

...Longer-than-stock gears is what these cars need though. It's the only thing that will allow them to hook up on street tires.

That is exactly why I'm really craving these bad boys...........

[Kooldino]

Dino - my MSP will be running 400whp but I will have 2-3 maps w/ diff. PSI/whp so I don't beat on it DD.

I based the first two gears identical/close to what you posted previously and changed the rest as i described.
I made the rest a bit more taller so there's more RPM after changing gears "based" on redline point to the next gear and so on.

Fair enough. At a glance, they do look decent, and should work well for a 400whp machine.

[avarela86]

Fair enough. At a glance, they do look decent, and should work well for a 400whp machine.

OMG it's MaxMazda what what...where you been.

[Maxx Mazda]

OMG it's MaxMazda what what...where you been.

Flying my bag off man... I almost forgot about my car!

[Speed3.5]

3.11:1@6500=36mph
1.83:1@6500=62mph
1.24:1@6500=91mph
0.90:1@6500=125 mph

This is what I have off the shelf. When I do the quaife par output shaft crownwheel & 5th I'm going to try a bit higher ratio final drive to bump it up a bit.


Hey shane , where did you get those mph bc I pluged the gears in f-body web and it gave slightly higher mph which throughs off my calc.

I don't know if you got those # from f-body or some other way or by actually looking at the odometer/tach?

Is there any other way/formula to double check with # from f-body ?

Just want to make sure , LMK

[shane02pro5]

Yes f-body using 215/35/18

[shane02pro5]

May as well bump this old ass thread.

Gathering rebuild parts to prepare disassembly of my tranny. PAR 3rd gear is making an uneasy tapping fluttering sound so I've been avoiding it totally. Gerard at PAR said to take pics and send them in. After about 9k with 3 neo gear oil changes I should have no problem getting them warrantied...I HOPE! Also looking at adding the bearing race brace.

[justanothermp5]

hey i have a question, i noticed your gears are the straight cut gears
do they make any more noise then stock? because i know reverse is a straightcut gear and it howls going slow lol
just always wondered that

[shane02pro5]

It's probably 1/3 as loud as reverse. It's a soothing sound to me...well all but 3rd right now! If my cutout is closed under hard accelleration they can scream a bit like a supercharger.

[justanothermp5]

oh, but its not very noticable during daily driving though? ive been thinking about upgrading my gears and im trying to get all info i can

also i heard that straight cut gears put alot of stress on the case, which is why most people get helical cut gears, is this true?

[iracemine]

yup, and these cases are weak.

[shane02pro5]

Actually with straight cut gears the axial forces are pretty much eliminated. This is what causes case flex.

When the stock helical gears are under extreme forces they try to push each axially away from each other. I would think the bearing cup reinforcement would possibly be helpfull even with the stock gearset

[avarela86]

Hmmm I met a guy running an MX-3 with a V-6 and has never broken gears. he sasys he stick to solid mounts and thats his trick. Aren't the cases in the V6 setups same internally as ours?

[iracemine]

yup, and these cases are weak.

I mean yup the cases are weak. straight cut double syncro will help reduce the twisting flex that misalignes the gears inside the trans, which leads to premature failure.

[justanothermp5]

ahhh ok, thanks guys
this thread is pretty helpful, now all i need is the money for the gears lol

[Maxx Mazda]

When you reassemble, check the shim thickness you're running on the bearing cups. I set mine back up right on the tight side of the Mazda specs, and haven't had a problem since. Shimming them tighter keeps the shafts from pulling apart under load. Not completely, but better than nothing.

[Signature Sound]

does PAR provide the Mazda specs for shimming, or do they recommend something different? I know they provide machining info for the bearing cups...

[shane02pro5]

Shimming is to mazda specs

[Maxx Mazda]

What shane said. You can't simply "drop in" a new gearset, even 5th for that matter. Alot of people do, which isn't good. Sure it may be ok, but you're supposed to measure your tolerances anytime you take that tranny apart. Like I said, I go right on the tight side of Mazda specs, to help keep everything from pulling apart. A few thou can make a big difference.

[Speed3.5]

shane - ready for new longer gears ?

[shane02pro5]

I'm pretty happy with the gearing...I just want to be able to use 3rd again! I'm planning to do the bearing cup re-inforcement but that's about the only upgrade I can afford right now. When I go back in next round will have the PAR pinion shaft and crownwheel with possibly a hair taller final drive and mfactory or quaife diff.

[LinuxRacr]

So at about what power level will I start breaking gears?

[Mazdaspeed2oo35]

So at about what power level will I start breaking gears?

I honestly think some other factors are involved on breaking gears here than just a certain amount of HP

[shane02pro5]

Once again sticky tires break things!

I broke my first oem 3rd gear at about 230whp (02 p5 tranny open diff uinrevised shiftforks and different synchro material) second one about 250whp (welded lsd all revised oem tranny parts).

3rd time PAR 3rd makes a fluttering thumping sound so tranny is coming apart. No slicks no track just random badluck aparently!

[LinuxRacr]

Do you guys have all upgraded the motor mounts?

[Mazdaspeed2oo35]

Once again sticky tires break things!

I broke my first oem 3rd gear at about 230whp (02 p5 tranny open diff uinrevised shiftforks and different synchro material) second one about 250whp (welded lsd all revised tranny parts).


Well i have always said that I rather to spin some tires than breaking things up.. one of the reasons im Using Nankangs and not better tires besides i have 2 new sets for spare.. lol

[shane02pro5]

Yes diy solid

[Mazdaspeed2oo35]

Yes diy solid

many people complains me about why using such cheesy tires back at USA and now in Here, and i guess they are the living reason why at my HP my tranny, LSD and gears TBK 3rd and 4th are still together rock solid.

[shane02pro5]

We have done this so many times Miguel...I enjoy putting it to the ground with a bit less power!

[Mazdaspeed2oo35]

We have done this so many times Miguel...I enjoy putting it to the ground with a bit less power!

Oh i know. i was just saying you know. Im stuck with Nankangs because i still have 8 new tires as spare, got a hell of a good deal on them. I will add wider and better rubbers when theses ones are done...lol


what tires are you currently running ?

[shane02pro5]

I got ya...

I'm running Nitto NT555 extremes 225/35/18 which may be slightly less grippy dry than the BFG KDW-2s I had before. Both are great in wet.

[Mazdaspeed2oo35]

I got ya...

I'm running Nitto NT555 extremes 225/35/18 which may be slightly less grippy dry than the BFG KDW-2s I had before. Both are great in wet.


Nice Didn't know they make 35 profile for 225's..

[shane02pro5]

Nitto is the only brand I've seen that size...those will go in the back soon and new 235/40's will go up front eventually

[Signature Sound]

I know solid mounts are said to be harsh on the tranny and I understand why, but it seems like its a good trade off for the added stress wheel hop puts on it. Plus you get a smoother shift so its worth having because either way if you're at those power levels you are going to break something.

I am going to be ordering the gears (hopefully) soon and was just wanting to have the info if its not going to be provided. I have the Mazda Tech manual for the engine, but not the Tranny.

[Maxx Mazda]

Solid motor and trans mounts increase the longevity of your tranny.

[shane02pro5]

Here you go sig

http://www.mazdaspd.com/resources/Transmission_Rebuild.pdf

[Canadian-ES-GT]

i heard that engine mounts my cause the 3rd gear to grind... and that might lead to brakin it! But I forget where I heard that.

[cali_axela]

Wow, glad I found this thread and am not the only one in this boat. Although I may be the first with a Mazda3 to be having the same issues as all you MSP people (we also have a G-series transmission, and I believe the gearsets are basically the same).

I broke my OEM 3rd gear a few months ago, after running about 250whp for a year and a half with no problems. Foolishly replaced it with another OEM 3rd gear thinking it'd hold for a few more years. It didn't -- both 3rd and 4th are now gone, it pretty much exploded yesterday during an HPDE session at Laguna Seca. I was flat out in 4th at about 100 nearing the top of Rahal and BOOM... no more 4th gear.

So, I'm looking to replace at least 3rd and 4th with some straight cut double synchro PAR setups. I already have a Quaife, which I hope isn't damaged too from driving the car home with so much shattered crap floating around in the trans. If I can find a good price, I would like to do second gear as well, as there's a couple corners I beat on that one pretty good too. Also a slightly taller cryo-treated 5th gear might be nice for quiet and lower RPM freeway cruising. Going to build it right this time...

[shane02pro5]

1st and 2nd gear are cut into the input shaft so you would have to do the 1-4 from PAR. Or 3rd and 4th which can be done seperately.

[cali_axela]

Yeah, I guess as long as 5th remains helical that's fine if the rest are all straight.

[blaineog]

Actually with straight cut gears the axial forces are pretty much eliminated. This is what causes case flex.

When the stock helical gears are under extreme forces they try to push each axially away from each other. I would think the bearing cup reinforcement would possibly be helpfull even with the stock gearset

I had gone through 4 3rd gears, including a gtx 3rd, and 2 4th gears. Frustrated, i ordered the Par straight cut 3rd and the reinforcement cups. I was disapointed in the cup design so we improved upon it an installed it.
4 months 10,000 miles on broken pavement, and 280lbft of torque, its still good.
When i inspected the housing during the build it was worn around the mainbearing support area... Hence premature failure even at 230lbft (last failure occured at 9psi).

[mike2225]

I had gone through 4 3rd gears, including a gtx 3rd, and 2 4th gears. Frustrated, i ordered the Par straight cut 3rd and the reinforcement cups. I was disapointed in the cup design so we improved upon it an installed it.
4 months 10,000 miles on broken pavement, and 280lbft of torque, its still good.
When i inspected the housing during the build it was worn around the mainbearing support area... Hence premature failure even at 230lbft (last failure occured at 9psi).
What did u do to improve on the reinforcement cups?

[cali_axela]

Since this seems to be the most popular thread for discussing straight-cut gearsets, seems like the best place to ask this related question instead of starting a new thread...

What kind of noises are considered "normal" from straight-cut gearsets? I was expecting the typical whining noise, but there's also a ton of clattering noises... it sounds like a freaking diesel truck. It shifts and feels amazing, I just want to make sure it's normal and not going to fail prematurely when I start adding more power.

[shane02pro5]

Lower gears sound a bit more crunchy since the tooth profile is so much larger than oem but I wouldnt exactly say clattering. Were clearances checked for re-shimming?

[cali_axela]

Crunchy is definitely a better word for it than clattering, and it's definitely louder at lower RPMs in lower gears. But going through a tunnel for example, cruising in 4th gear at 2500 rpms, the crunching/churning sound is quite pronounced even over my exhaust.

I had the work done at a shop I've been going to for a long time and trust him a lot -- he's built several G series transmissions before, and I gave him all the specifications to use and am sure they're correct, assuming he did it right.

I've driven it about 1000 miles with the new gearset and it doesn't seem to be getting worse or anything, gas mileage is the same and the car is ridiculously quick with the new closer ratio and shorter final drive... just don't want to have to drop the transmission again for a long time since this was the second time in the last 6 months.

I should also note that I think these are the older style PAR gears and they were expected to be really loud.

[Focus]

Crunchy is definitely a better word for it than clattering, and it's definitely louder at lower RPMs in lower gears. But going through a tunnel for example, cruising in 4th gear at 2500 rpms, the crunching/churning sound is quite pronounced even over my exhaust.

I had the work done at a shop I've been going to for a long time and trust him a lot -- he's built several G series transmissions before, and I gave him all the specifications to use and am sure they're correct, assuming he did it right.

I've driven it about 1000 miles with the new gearset and it doesn't seem to be getting worse or anything, gas mileage is the same and the car is ridiculously quick with the new closer ratio and shorter final drive... just don't want to have to drop the transmission again for a long time since this was the second time in the last 6 months.

I should also note that I think these are the older style PAR gears and they were expected to be really loud.

Does it stop making the noise when the clutch is in? And does it make the same sounds at idle ?

[cali_axela]

Yes it stops with the clutch in, and it does make some noise at idle with the clutch out but not as much as at low RPM in gear.

[iracemine]

bad pilot bearing.

[Focus]

Yes it stops with the clutch in, and it does make some noise at idle with the clutch out but not as much as at low RPM in gear.

Yeah I get the same thing. AS for the whining, do you get some in 5th gear as well?

[cali_axela]

Yeah it's not the pilot bearing, we replaced it as a precaution, this is a much different type of crunchy noise. I just took it to Thunderhill on friday, transmission shifts like a dream at the limit... much more direct, and loving the new gear ratios. And yeah the whine is pretty extreme, even in fifth.. check out the video, you can ever hear it over all the wind noise. But it's definitely worth it ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mmxSZpvv-o

[Focus]

Yeah, same type of noise I get, although in that video you don't hear the crunching/slapping noises.

[shane02pro5]

I think at lower rpms letting off they resonate a bit from the large surface area on the teeth making contact. Smashed my motor on my exhaust cutout during my recent tranny rebuild and left it open ever since until this morning. Forgot how nice the gears sound and the extra punch down low with the coutout closed.

[Signature Sound]

What stage/ brand clutch? Could it be crank walk?

[cali_axela]

ACT pressure plate and Exedy stage 2 clutch disc (which is brand new, and the noise happened with the last clutch disc too).

From what I've been hearing, this crunchy noise is fairly normal and is accentuated by the straight-cut ring & pinion.

[Signature Sound]

Weird combo. I had major problems trying to run the Exedy stage 2. I put in the act extreme and its perfect. Grabs hard and no noise or chatter.