cp-e HPFpump, Dynos and Datalogs

[dadasracecar]

Well today was the long awaited tuning session for my car post HPFpump install. Jordan and I were tuning so I only paid for dyno time. Pucker factor of ~8 for that... Anyway, the results were somewhat disappointing as I made ~270hp/290tq to the wheels. The cursed lean spot down low gave us trouble from the beginning. Between 2.5K and 2.8K we just couldn't seem to get rid of this lean hump that was pushing my afr above 13. My goal for the tune was 18 psi, and 12:1 afr and we pretty much hit it. It seems this car just doesn't perform that well in the cold. The temps at start were in the 40s and warmed to about 50 by the time we were done. This should actually produce higher than normal values but for the MZR DISI engine, it seems temps below 50 are not ideal.

As for the pumps performance, i'm pleased to report that we did have better control down low in the aforementioned region. If you look at the dyno, I've plotted the zeroed out 18 psi baseline, the 18 psi Extreme tune that was done with the stock pump, and today's final tune at 18 psi. You can see that the oscillation is much less severe with the new pump and stays in a much safer boundary. After that the plots are nearly identical save for the fact that my tune today was a little richer and so I lost some power and torque.

121457

Looking at the datalog of today's run you can see that the the fuel pressure seems to stay right where it wants to be and the injector pulse width is normal. I was expecting to see reduced fuel pressure or longer IPWs in the low rpm lean region but that just doesn't seem to be the case. The injector duty cycle is very smooth and is only around 60 % (you have to multiply the number by two for a DI engine).
THe car pulls timing until it gets past the lean spot thankfully. Once there though, ignition timing is continually advancing to almost 14 deg advanced which tells me I'm not knocking and everything on the top end is going well.

121458

This pretty much supports what cp-e has been saying that you don't really need the pump unless you're going to upgrade the turbo or do something really special. I've got a full bolt on car and I plan to continue to try and get more out of it (read cp-e turbo upgrade... c'mon guys!). With my setup I'm seeing a benefit from it in that I'm not as lean as before in the very low rpms. I don't have the turbo yet to really make use of it. yet. ;)

One final thing. We did a pull at 19 psi and the results are below. It was largely negligible and so we backed it back down to 18. I guess I hit the efficiency limit of my turbo with that...

121459

[Target:STi]

nice work man.
question, did you have problems with boost/fuel cut before at any point? did you have stutter problems before? if so, did this solve those issues or no?
theres quite a bit of hype over this mod, i'd like to see the demons put to rest.

[laloosh]

Id be pretty upset with numbers like that. Than again dynos don't mean too much to me. If you didnt have stuttering that started in the midrange and continued up through the top this mods wont give you much if anything. Still wierd how my car is night and day after the pump....than again different pumps(deadhorse

[driver311]

ya but look at his numbers. VERY LOW. your car is probably making 40whp more than his. I dont understand why people are throwing down such low numbers. I did absolutely nothing to my car and picked up 60whp and 8mph trap at the track. you are far from maxing your turbo out. you should be pushing 300-325whp with those mods.

[laloosh]

The guy needs to hit the track, if he comes back with a 103 and under trap. The car is simply not running right and something is "off" i/fmic/tbe/tuned at 18psi, doesnt add up to 270 when bone stock ms6's put down 220-230.
18 psi alone should get you to 270. Then again the ms6 is heavier and does loose more power through the awd system. Who knows the deal with this, we need more people to dyno these two pumps. Cough cough some1 pay me and ill dyno it tomorrow lol. My guess i/tbe/18psi tuned = at least 320-330 based on trap speed alone.

[driver311]

The guy needs to hit the track, if he comes back with a 103 and under trap. The car is simply not running right and something is "off" i/fmic/tbe/tuned at 18psi, doesnt add up to 270 when bone stock ms6's put down 220-230.
18 psi alone should get you to 270. Then again the ms6 is heavier and does loose more power through the awd system. Who knows the deal with this, we need more people to dyno these two pumps. Cough cough some1 pay me and ill dyno it tomorrow lol. My guess i/tbe/18psi tuned = at least 320-330 based on trap speed alone.

330whp easy! Dyno that hog you cheap ars.LOL(lol2)

[dadasracecar]

I go to Extreme Motorsports in Odenton, MD because Sean calibrates his dyno religiously and I'll get repeatable numbers. He does this because he races and mods his car all the time and does it for money at a very serious level.

I dynoed my car at Altered Atmosphere bone stock and it was 235 awhp. That was at least 15 hp higher than any other speed6. Conversely probeturbo dynoed his car at Extreme at around 207 awhp stock. We were neck and neck with no clear winner when we were stock. But like Laloosh said, numbers don't mean much, it's the difference the counts. If I go by probeturbo's numbers, I've gained about 70 awhp with my mods.

The MS3s will always dyno more than the MS6s b/c of drivetrain losses. I would estimate that we'd lose 50-70 whp because of the loss. IIRC cp-e's fully bolt on modded MS3 dynoed around 320-330 whp at Extreme for comparison.

I'm definitely planning more and I'll get there. Sean charges $105 for three pulls with afr. I'll chip in $20 to get Laloosh dynoed there if he'll make the trip.

[dadasracecar]

Id be pretty upset with numbers like that. Than again dynos don't mean too much to me.

Now that's funny.

[fastdreams]

Subscribe.
Just want to say thanks for your efforts and sharing them here.

Looks like the fp will be last on my potential mod list (sticking to basics) unless I see different results.

[Powerslave]

subscribe +1... good stuff

[laloosh]

I go to Extreme Motorsports in Odenton, MD because Sean calibrates his dyno religiously and I'll get repeatable numbers. He does this because he races and mods his car all the time and does it for money at a very serious level.

I dynoed my car at Altered Atmosphere bone stock and it was 235 awhp. That was at least 15 hp higher than any other speed6. Conversely probeturbo dynoed his car at Extreme at around 207 awhp stock. We were neck and neck with no clear winner when we were stock. But like Laloosh said, numbers don't mean much, it's the difference the counts. If I go by probeturbo's numbers, I've gained about 70 awhp with my mods.

The MS3s will always dyno more than the MS6s b/c of drivetrain losses. I would estimate that we'd lose 50-70 whp because of the loss. IIRC cp-e's fully bolt on modded MS3 dynoed around 320-330 whp at Extreme for comparison.

I'm definitely planning more and I'll get there. Sean charges $105 for three pulls with afr. I'll chip in $20 to get Laloosh dynoed there if he'll make the trip.


Ill take that.
Dada in for 20(alright)

Im not even sure where that is but i bet its like a 300 mile round trip

[redrocketz]

so a bigger turbo at 18psi and the same other mods minus the fuel pump nets you an extra 60awhp and ~100awtq? man that sucks... can't wait until we throw a pump and mani on that thing.

[laloosh]

so a bigger turbo at 18psi and the same other mods minus the fuel pump nets you an extra 60awhp and ~100awtq? man that sucks... can't wait until we throw a pump and mani on that thing.

hes on the stock turbo and already has the cpe fuel pump, which he lost power with.


btw: Just looked up how far this place is from me. 225 miles, no thx lol IM not drivig almost 500 miles to get dynoed

[ZooZoom]

No doubt the stock tune runs extremely lean (compared to my Subie experience) in the lower rpms - but that's where it's making maximum torque.

Here are three consecutive dyno pulls (same dyno brand) after installing my Cobb SF intake. You can see a similar dip where the ECU must be pulling timing.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a373/BOXRPWR/Yimi/KevinGiesyCobbSRI.jpg

[nypest]

you run lean all the way to 4500? (no)

[laloosh]

you run lean all the way to 4500? (no)

hence more prood the ms3 and 6 react better to mods. This mod reacts differnt on a ms3 car. It didnt do shit for dada and it made my car a night and day difference

[nypest]

sub(rockon)

[ZooZoom]

you run lean all the way to 4500? (no)


not by choice. still on stock ECU tune.

I can tell you that I've got 29k miles on it and it runs stronger today than it ever has. (headbang)

[acidbbg]

subscribed

[Haltech]

Matter of time before it goes Kaboom with AFR's in that neighborhood... There's definitely something wrong with your setup my friend.

[nypest]

not by choice. still on stock ECU tune.

I can tell you that I've got 29k miles on it and it runs stronger today than it ever has. (headbang)

Nice!

You haven't messed with trims at all?

I just cant believe the stock tune was so lean down low. You only have the intake. It truly is a formula for each car.

[palerider]

I want to focus a little more on that lean spike low. Whats causing this?

[dadasracecar]

No doubt the stock tune runs extremely lean (compared to my Subie experience) in the lower rpms - but that's where it's making maximum torque.

Here are three consecutive dyno pulls (same dyno brand) after installing my Cobb SF intake. You can see a similar dip where the ECU must be pulling timing.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a373/BOXRPWR/Yimi/KevinGiesyCobbSRI.jpg

JESUS! That's 15:1 until 2900! WTF type of intake do you have on that thing? Get rid of it.

[palerider]

Imagine if he put the fuel pump on that setup. (nailbyt)

[dadasracecar]

Just looked up how far this place is from me. 225 miles, no thx lol IM not drivig almost 500 miles to get dynoed

You show, I'll pay, provided I get the datalogs.

[laloosh]

hmmmm r u serious? Whats your work scd like?

[laloosh]

Imagine if he put the fuel pump on that setup. (nailbyt)

the pump richens the car out so im not sure what you mean by this

[zigger]

Hey guys... not trying to be mean here. But these numbers seem very low. Than again every dyno is different. You used the same dyno as me I see.
I dynod 305 whp and 343 t/q
with 3" Tbe
cpe ems boost set to 18 psi
cai
bov
tmic
here is the thread of my tune and dyno chart

http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123682815

this run shows the 3rd and 4th run the 1st 2 were abit higher but in any case i made 300 whp 330ish t/q

[Target:STi]

cpe didnt do anything themseves to the pump whatsoever. They have no machines in house and the only logs they do theselves are from the standback or some other software.

Their testing consists of calling Keith at APR in Auburn, AL. Their pictures of the LCD screen on the fuel pump tester is an edited image of APRs post from another forum. True story.


wow are you serious? this coming from the guy that stole it from APR first? the same one who tried to sell it at twice or three times the original price just by putting your name on it?
I'm sorry, how many mandrel bend machines do you have around your shop? and you do have an electrical engineer building a piggyback ecu, dont you? no?
trying to bash a company's credibility does absolutely nothing for you own.

[bova80]

wow are you serious? this coming from the guy that stole it from APR first? the same one who tried to sell it at twice or three times the original price just by putting your name on it?
I'm sorry, how many mandrel bend machines do you have around your shop? and you do have an electrical engineer building a piggyback ecu, dont you? no?
trying to bash a company's credibility does absolutely nothing for you own.

i agree, where as you did come out with a good fuel pump, there was no reason to take shots at cp-e.

[chriscecc914]

Bova and Targetsti, this "bashing" has been going on a long time and if you follow it all the way to the beginning, the first "shots" were not from mrlilguy.

and they obviously dont have alot of pipe bending machines since their exhausts are always backordered

[bova80]

i'm sorry, i apologize, i must have skipped over some parts of this thread.

[mrlilguy157]

i'm sorry, i apologize, i must have skipped over some parts of this thread.

thanks and no hard feelings. Any questions or concerns, feel free to contact me. I'm always down to help out the community!

[ATE BALLER]

So you have APR's parts in your pump, but you made the deal with Autotech?

[mrlilguy157]

So you have APR's parts in your pump, but you made the deal with Autotech?

I have both, Autotech in right now, APRs to be sold to a VW friend of mine. Maybe have another kit coming soon ;)

[ATE BALLER]

What, are they going to make one to flow even more? If so, I'm holding out. The turbo I'm planning on has a pretty wide map, so it's going to require quite a bit of fuel to be available from 3k rpm on.

[mrlilguy157]

APR isn't that I know of. This is something completely different.

[laloosh]

APR isn't that I know of. This is something completely different.

so um...whatcha got in mind this time?(2thumbs)

[mrlilguy157]

so um...whatcha got in mind this time?(2thumbs)

I've got tons of things in mind, and they'll be shared as products can be produced. This thread isn't about me though. Its dadas pump results thread.

[laloosh]

U siad the timing hits 14. My timing gets retarded during spool up and then gradual rises to only about 12ish. Is the timing you are datalogging stock or is that the advanced timing?

[dadasracecar]

U siad the timing hits 14. My timing gets retarded during spool up and then gradual rises to only about 12ish. Is the timing you are datalogging stock or is that the advanced timing?

My timing was stock. That's one of the differences btw this tune and mine from this summer. We tried adding a degree and saw negligible benefit. Given that I was already running that much advance, we decided to be safe.

[Antoine]

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