MS3 - Rear wing effectiveness

[TurboWagon]

This is a really simple question and it could have possibly been answered somewhere else already. Are there any numbers out there that show if the rear-wing on the back of the hatch is effective in reducing lift? I figure that if it is, than it would really only be effective at higher speeds. Anyways, didn't know if anyone out there could shed some light on this.

[Mocoso]

I dont know about the exact numbers showing the downward force vs. speed but yes the rear-wing is effective at reducing lift.. as with any car the aerodynamics of the car dont come into play until you start getting up to higher speeds.

Note that I think ANY factory std. wing/spoiler will be effective... not true for a lot of the aftermarket outrageousness you see on so many "rice" rockets...best ones are the ones that put the wing backwards...thats all a front engine car needs - MORE lift in the rear LOL!

[Va6li]

A rear wing is only effective for a RWD.

For it to be effective on the MS3, is at speeds over 155MPH.

[Hirudin]

A rear wing is only effective for a RWD.

For it to be effective on the MS3, is at speeds over 155MPH.
155+? I wonder why the Mazda people limited the speed3 at the exact speed where the wing would start being effective..?

It's important to keep the rear wheels on the ground whether they're driven wheels or not.

[TurboWagon]

A rear wing is only effective for a RWD.

For it to be effective on the MS3, is at speeds over 155MPH.

I think that statement should be reevaluated. As the poster before me has stated, it is still important to keep the rear wheels on the ground.

I guess the only true way to find this out would be with a wind tunnel and a MS3 with and without a rear wing. I could really be thinking too far into this, it might just be there to distinguish it as a MS3 but I would like to think it is effective.

[Ryz]

A rear wing is only effective for a RWD.

For it to be effective on the MS3, is at speeds over 155MPH.

Where the heck do you get your info?

[AutoXRacer]

According to the Mazda dealer when I inquired about the MS3 and a sunroof, Mazda did not offer the sunroof option due to the disturbance of the airflow over the roof and wing. Supposedly, Mazda spent quite sometime in an air tunnel with the MS3...

[ill_eagle94]

Whoever is saying that a rear wing is not effective on a FWD car is crazy. As stated, it may not be for downforce but instead to reduce lift.

[Sierra117]

To be rehashed...don't matter if you car pushes, pulls, or splits the difference, the last thing I want is my rear end to get a bit squirrly at speeds. If the wing keeps the ass end stable, then I'll take it, thank you very much. Seeing as Automobile took the car to 165...I think Mazda spent some time making sure the car was pretty slipery.

[rodslinger]

A rear wing is only effective for a RWD.

For it to be effective on the MS3, is at speeds over 155MPH.

What are you smoking again?

Are you saying that reduced lift (or even increased downforce) at say 70mph while driving down the interstate wouldn't be beneficial when you have to do an accident avoidance maneuver. Keeping the rear in check helps ALL vehicle whether FWD or RWD....

Oh... And put your hand out the window at 55mph... Feel that? A wing can be effective at those speeds too.

[fourthmeal]

A rear wing is only effective for a RWD.

For it to be effective on the MS3, is at speeds over 155MPH.

Wow...just WOW. Making stuff up as we go along?



The rear wing reduces lift, yes. It can help on a FWD, RWD, or AWD car at speed. That exact speed depends greatly on the vehicle, and the wing, but I'd have to estimate it will start making a very slight difference at ~80mph, and increase in effectiveness logarithmically with speed. I imagine at 120 that the wing is QUITE effective in reducing lift, and it may be actually producing downforce by that speed. I can't tell, but it seems to stabilize the ass of the car pretty well.

If you want to know what such little differences can do to a car at speeds like this, simply look at the Audi TT. At 120+, the rear of the car would get squirrelly and they had multiple wrecks on the Autobahn due to the sleek wingless design. The TT soon had a lift-up spoiler similar to Porsche's design, and the wrecks caused by rear-lift ceased.

[Kosh]

We have a spoiler, not a wing. It is used to reduce turbulence, not create negative lift.

Read up everyone http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoiler_%28automotive%29

[fourthmeal]

I've always been taught that turbulence affects lift coefficient. So in essence both theories are correct I suppose.

[Mocoso]

We have a spoiler, not a wing. It is used to reduce turbulence, not create negative lift.

Read up everyone http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoiler_%28automotive%29

Ok Ill give you that they are spoilers and not wings... but you need to re-read the link you posted... you have it backwards...it is used to INCREASE the amount of turbulence and break up the laminar flow. Directly quoting "This disruption's primary purpose is to REDUCE the amount of lift naturally generated by the shape of the vehicle while it is moving."

IMHO that big ass spoiler in the back isnt there for looks... I really doubt they would do that for looks along with the rear diffuser (that is also there to help with vehicle dynamics) albeit I do think the side skirts and front diffusers are for looks only

I havent stuck my head under the car but I suspect there isnt any tunnel plates under there which MAY make the rear diffuser for show as well... my fluid dynamics class was wayyyyy tooo many years ago and besides I left that crap to the motorheads...

Interesting sidebit: On the McLaren MB SLR the rear diffuser extends to 10 degrees at speeds above 55 MPH and is flush below those speeds but it will extend to 65 degrees if brakes are applied hard to serve as an air brake... LOL amazing what gadgets over half a million dollars will get you

[Ryz]

Since the Wik entry says this "This can result in improved vehicle stability by decreasing lift or decreasing drag that may cause unpredictable handling in a car at speed." I think we mean the same thing.

[flipstylex]

i remember a time when i didnt know much about cars. A ricer i was talking to in the movie theatres told me this about his spoiler.

Me: Wow , nice spoiler(sarcastic), but don't you think it's a little too outrageous looking?
Ricer: I'ts an aftermarket, it's suppose to help your car.
Me: What do you mean by "help your car"
Ricer: Well, the guys at pepboys sold it to me, it's APC, it's the best wing out there.
Me: well...what does it do ???
Ricer: It's suppose to add 20hp bcuz the wind goes through it ..making the car stable , like a "floating" feel for your car !
Me: oOo..never knew that...
Ricer: You should get one, not my civic can go even faster ! Just don't go over 120mph, it might make the front end lift ....
Me: oOo, i see...
Ricer: yea, if u ever play gran turismo, u see cars lift at certein speeds !
Me: (i waited till he left and laugh my ass off !)

[dkswim]

hay some food for thought what about euro version with regular 3 spoiler. granted they have better underbody trays. but they can get on autobaun with higher sustained speeds.

[dkswim]

i dont know how effective our spoiler/wing are i do know a couple of army guys that had there srt4 over in Germany they had to put there spoilers/wings back on there car beacuse it started getting squilrly after 110 mph without the stock one on

[x'ed]

I want to swap mine for the base three wing i think, this one doesn't flow as smooth as the base mazda 3's does.

[staples187]

Take the wing off and your call will do backflips like gymnastics. (laugh)

[TurboWagon]

I want to swap mine for the base three wing i think, this one doesn't flow as smooth as the base mazda 3's does.

Im too lazy to search for pictures but it would be nice to see a side-by-side comparison. I think I actually saw a regular 5-door drive by me today but I didn't get a good look at the wing.

[autoxes]

If you want to see how effective a spoiler, or a wing for that matter, is, then you just have to angle it the other way. I would wager a great deal of money that at speed, with an up-angled wing you would generate lift, therefore, the inverse is true with the wing angled the correct direction.

[AutoXRacer]

I want to swap mine for the base three wing i think, this one doesn't flow as smooth as the base mazda 3's does.

Why would you want to do that...? One of the unique things about the MS3 is the wing... Plus if you ever find yourself going 100+ MPH, you'll be glad you have it...

Mazda spent quite a bit of time in the aerodymanic chamber flow testing this set up...

[stevekt]

Doesn't make much sense that the European version which will likely see 100mph+ on a regular basis has the standard 3 spoiler.

[AutoXRacer]

The European version has the regular spoiler...? Do you have a picture?

[redspeed]

The European version has the regular spoiler...? Do you have a picture?

Here you go bud:
http://www.channel4.com/4car/media/M/mazda/3/03-large/06-mazda3mps-rside-s.jpg
http://www.channel4.com/4car/media/M/mazda/3/03-large/06-mazda3mps-r3q-s.jpg
http://www.channel4.com/4car/media/M/mazda/3/03-large/06-mazda3mps-s-a.jpg

[AutoXRacer]

You know what Europe's version doesn't include the wing...? They have better roads and they are better drivers...:D

On a serious note...thats very odd. I have read that Mazda did spent some time on aero studies... But why wouldn't try include it with the Euro version... Hmm... (uhm)

Maybe Mazda thought that the US is all into bling bling, big wings, ground affects, and flashy cars that maybe that appealed to us...while Europeans are more conservative and purpose oriented...

I like our version better... :D

[Brian MP5T]

The wing is for show. For F-Sakes...

[Ryz]

The wing is not for show only. Since the same one we have is available as part of an option package in europe I'd think it's just so they can make some extra money over there.

[Brian MP5T]

The wing is not for show only.

Is this your professional Opinion? RU an aerodynamic expert? It is a gut feeling, Did a series of chicken bones in a plate tell you? Did a gopher see it's shadow and tell you that?

Seriously...This forum has taken a dive with crap like that post.

[Sveivo]

Wow...just WOW. Making stuff up as we go along?



The rear wing reduces lift, yes. It can help on a FWD, RWD, or AWD car at speed. That exact speed depends greatly on the vehicle, and the wing, but I'd have to estimate it will start making a very slight difference at ~80mph, and increase in effectiveness logarithmically with speed. I imagine at 120 that the wing is QUITE effective in reducing lift, and it may be actually producing downforce by that speed. I can't tell, but it seems to stabilize the ass of the car pretty well.

If you want to know what such little differences can do to a car at speeds like this, simply look at the Audi TT. At 120+, the rear of the car would get squirrelly and they had multiple wrecks on the Autobahn due to the sleek wingless design. The TT soon had a lift-up spoiler similar to Porsche's design, and the wrecks caused by rear-lift ceased.

Logarithmically? That's slower than linearly. Air resistance is proportional to the square of velocity. Who is making stuff up now?

(hahaspit)

[dkswim]

the european wing is more aerodynamic the europen version also has a diffrent underbody molding thats more aerodynamic. the car is bound to get better fuel economy which they need with the higher fuel cost.

[Brian MP5T]

I = Unsubs from this SHIT

[VAspeed3]

I = Unsubs from this SHIT

Yep, sometimes you just have to walk away.

Who thinks Mazda put the MS3 spoiler on to keep people safer at 120MPH??? That there are no numbers around that anyone has found might indicate that downforce (if it exists) is not significant. Spoiler was put there to help sell the damn car! (deadhorse

[fourthmeal]

Logarithmically? That's slower than linearly. Air resistance is proportional to the square of velocity. Who is making stuff up now?

(hahaspit)

Ah true. I used the wrong words, but that was the idea I was trying to convey. When I think square, I think logs. You win, I'm not a math wiz.

[chaos4]

I want to swap mine for the base three wing i think, this one doesn't flow as smooth as the base mazda 3's does.

Really? I bet you have the wind tunnel data to back up. Right?(spank)

[Savate]

This is getting old now, not that I had anything else to contribute... (stooges)

[BlackJack]

look at the Porsche cars....they have wings in the back which comes up at a speed to help control the car.

The MS3's spoiler is designed to help control the airflow and it IS designed to keep the car stable. end of story. Our MS3's spoiler are tons better than the spoiler in Europe.

[x'ed]

Really? I bet you have the wind tunnel data to back up. Right?(spank)

I meant aesthetically smart ass.

[Brian MP5T]

look at the Porsche cars....they have wings in the back which comes up at a speed to help control the car.

The MS3's spoiler is designed to help control the airflow and it IS designed to keep the car stable. end of story. Our MS3's spoiler are tons better than the spoiler in Europe.

Yer Retarded if you actually believe that... (rofl)

[x'ed]

How many of you track your car to the point you have to worry about stability at over 100mph? It isn't a huge deal on this car, it feels stable, so it is, who gives a crap about the wing.

[Brian MP5T]

who gives a crap about the wing.
Exactly... FUCK THE WING!

[BlackJack]

Your opinion guys. I don't give a shit because IT'S JUST THE FUCKING INTERNET!

My opinion- I love the spoiler and it gives the MS3 a better image.

[AutoXRacer]

Your opinion guys. I don't give a shit because IT'S JUST THE FUCKING INTERNET!

My opinion- I love the spoiler and it gives the MS3 a better image.

(iagree)

We should get someone to test out the wing theory...

Anyone up to remove their wing and then hit the highway at 120-150+ speeds?
Come on... All you none believers out there... If you think its not needed, then prove us wrong!!!! (2thumbs)

[Hikaru9]

It's interesting why people have to use profanity over a discussion about wings. ^_^;;

For those talking about the 3 MPS in Europe, Evo said that Mazda expects to eventually have the aero kit as standard on all 3 MPS in U.K. Those wings appear even more pronounced than ours. (U.S. ver.)

http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/evocarreviews/208443/mazda_3_mps.html

[TurboWagon]

Alright, I honestly didn't think this thread would turn to such crap after creating it. Can a mod please close it.

[Ryz]

Is this your professional Opinion? RU an aerodynamic expert? It is a gut feeling, Did a series of chicken bones in a plate tell you? Did a gopher see it's shadow and tell you that?

Seriously...This forum has taken a dive with crap like that post.

You're pretty full of yourself, but it seems you like to read your own posts so enjoy. Before you open your mouth regarding crap posts, look in the mirror tard.

[Ryz]

Yer Retarded if you actually believe that... (rofl)


Please prove that he is wrong, if you can't you're an even bigger ass for opening your mouth.

[crashkelly]

You're pretty full of yourself, but it seems you like to read your own posts so enjoy. Before you open your mouth regarding crap posts, look in the mirror tard.

Ha yeah Brian's full of himself, but he is also probably one of the most knowledgable members on this board. So he probably earned the right to be full of himself...look at his build sometime...id be full of myself too if made something that nice.

[Ryz]

He bought a bunch of stuff and put it together, amazing.

[crashkelly]

He bought a bunch of stuff and put it together, amazing.

uhh, dude you show me the website where you can buy his manifold...you'll be searching for a long long time...and it takes some skill to work on your own car even if you just bought all the pieces.

[fourthmeal]

Alright, I honestly didn't think this thread would turn to such crap after creating it. Can a mod please close it.

LOL, its ok. Shit happens. It is an honest question, but since none of us know a definitive, wind-tunnel answer, we can only use the knowledge gained through "tribal" means, such as hearsay, research, and other situations.

Obviously, the only way to answer the question for sure would be to stick it in a wind tunnel and find out. But, that'll likely not be done by any of us.

[Brian MP5T]

He bought a bunch of stuff and put it together, amazing.

Same can be said about you... However... Dude..

1. How many Times have you been published in a Magazine..
2. How many times has your car been in a Newspaper.
3. How many times was your car Showoff of the week (http://www.cardomain.com/ride/503974).

Exactly.. Nice that you don't like it..

With the three above points, I'm very confident that statistically, you are in a minority..



BTW.. The answer Key for MP5T is...
1 - 4 Times
2 - 2 Times
3 - 1 Times (Voted for out of 1.5 Million Cars)

[Sierra117]

Badger badger badger badger badger badger badger mushroom mushroom.

[Brian MP5T]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOxR7rTYuSI (http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/%3Cobject%20width=%22425%22%20height=%22355%22%3E% 3Cparam%20name=%22movie%22%20value=%22http://www.youtube.com/v/GOxR7rTYuSI%22%3E%3C/param%3E%3Cparam%20name=%22wmode%22%20value=%22tra nsparent%22%3E%3C/param%3E%3Cembed%20src=%22http://www.youtube.com/v/GOxR7rTYuSI%22%20type=%22application/x-shockwave-flash%22%20wmode=%22transparent%22%20width=%22425% 22%20height=%22355%22%3E%3C/embed%3E%3C/object%3E)

[Sierra117]

I figured everyone else was posting something useless, I might as well be part of the fun!

[dkswim]

i dont see how this is relevent to the wing but ok

[fourthmeal]

Somebody upload the "train wreck of a thread" video from newgrounds for me, I can't do it as I'm at work and NG is blocked from me. That video is EXACTLY what has happened to this poor thread.

[Sierra117]

Id like to see that...

[fourthmeal]

Thread Train Wreck (http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/356393#)

[ZooMIN3]

The wing looks sexy. If you all don't want yours, take it off and send it to me, I'll double, or triple stack that shit fo sho! lol

Seriously, if it helps with stability then sweet, I guess the potential is there if I decide to ever go 50 over the posted 70mph speed limit sign. But I like to keep my license for a little bit longer, and I don't feel like causing a wreck if for some dumb reason the ass end of my car decides to do the electric slide becuase of high speeds..... For now, like I mentioned, its noyce...

-J

[TurboWagon]

I would guess that it does have some effect on reducing wind noise. Whenever I go upwards or 75 mph or so, the only noise really coming from the car is that from the wheels and slightly from the wind passing over and around the car.

Also, I would agree that the wing does add a nice feature to distinguish the MS3 from the stock 5-door. It isn't gaudy like other wings but yet, for those who know what to look for, I believe it makes an impression, although subtle but effective.

If I would take a stab at how the wing is effective, I would guess that maybe it keeps the rear of the car from collecting less dirt. My GTI used to gather dirt and dust on the rear hatch religiously. Yet, this could also be a function of the design of the car rather than the wing placement.

Unless someone has the time and a wind tunnel to test an MS3 both with and without a wing, I believe all we can do is guess. So maybe we should refrain from pointless finger pointing and immature "he-said-she-said" and post opinions.

[Sierra117]

If I would take a stab at how the wing is effective, I would guess that maybe it keeps the rear of the car from collecting less dirt. My GTI used to gather dirt and dust on the rear hatch religiously. Yet, this could also be a function of the design of the car rather than the win placement.

While it may simply be because I have a black car, based on how much I've had to clean off the hatch of my Speed3...I'm gonna have to say no to this, lol.

[mazdaspeed32007]

While it may simply be because I have a black car, based on how much I've had to clean off the hatch of my Speed3...I'm gonna have to say no to this, lol.

a manufacturer put a spoiler on a car to reduce dirt collection on the rear of the car....do people think before they type shit. (screwy)

[Ryz]

Same can be said about you... However... Dude..

1. How many Times have you been published in a Magazine..
2. How many times has your car been in a Newspaper.
3. How many times was your car Showoff of the week (http://www.cardomain.com/ride/503974).

Exactly.. Nice that you don't like it..

With the three above points, I'm very confident that statistically, you are in a minority..

BTW.. The answer Key for MP5T is...
1 - 4 Times
2 - 2 Times
3 - 1 Times (Voted for out of 1.5 Million Cars)

What three points? I personally don't give a crap about being in a paper, magazine, etc. for bolting parts on my car, any mechanic can easily accomplish this. I've been noted in other publications (PC World, PC Magazine, Infoworld and a few others) for things that actually mean something. The computer your using to post this info probably has several of the items I've been involved with incorporated into its design. Winning a voting situation by going to every forum you can find and begging isn't all that impressive either.

[Brian MP5T]

What three points? I personally don't give a crap about being in a paper, magazine, etc. for bolting parts on my car, any mechanic can easily accomplish this. I've been noted in other publications (PC World, PC Magazine, Infoworld and a few others) for things that actually mean something. The computer your using to post this info probably has several of the items I've been involved with incorporated into its design. Winning a voting situation by going to every forum you can find and begging isn't all that impressive either.

You Remind Me Of Gay.

[dkswim]

this thread has gotten soo stupid but fro some reason i cant stop from looking, its like one of those big accidents that you cant help but stare at.

[fourthmeal]

Thread Train Wreck (http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/356393#)


See previous post...lol.

[Sierra117]

this thread has gotten soo stupid but fro some reason i cant stop from looking, its like one of those big accidents that you cant help but stare at.

Its like a donkey show. Its horrible and wrong and nasty and evil and yet all so intriguing.

[TurboWagon]

a manufacturer put a spoiler on a car to reduce dirt collection on the rear of the car....do people think before they type shit. (screwy)

Not specifically TO reduce the amount of dirt but maybe it has some effect.

Hell, its just a wild guess and from reading all of these other posts, at least some of us are staying on topic. Besides, nothing ANYONE has posted has been proved so why shouldn't i make my own guess?

For all I know though, Texas could be a lot dustier than North Carolina but considering we are in a drought, who knows. He also has a black car while mine is blue, yet my GTI was red and I still notice less dirt on the MS3.

Lets list exactly how the rear wing is effective...

1. Being the root-cause of a thread gone horribly wrong
2. Directing air over the rear of the car
3. Causing arguments over terminology
4. Discovering European MS3's have the US wing as an option, not standard

Anyone else? Please, im BEGGING for more......

Fucking christ...

[mazdaspeed32007]

5. dirt deflector.

[mazdaspeed32007]

oh 6. attracting completely retarded thread subscribers.

[Brian MP5T]

7. Having even more profoundly retarded people start lists.

[dkswim]

wait a sec you just added t the list hmmmmm. interesting trivia the STi wing only adds about 100lbs at 100 mph i havnt read on the efectivness of the evo wing or our wing but i am looking around now.

[Brian MP5T]

^^ That wing is the same design the Rally team uses.... I don't think you should compare the MS3 and a WRC Car...

When Mazda starts making race cars again, then I believe there might be some function.

[Hikaru9]

Not that I have a degree in aerodynamics, but I have to wonder if the poster was really serious by saying that the spoiler was there to reduce dirt.

The MS3 is the first wagon I've owned, and it gets insane amount of dirt in the back. I reckon this is due to the lack of airflow in the rear since I had not experienced the same issue with other cars (with notchback design). Friends who own SUVs complain about the same thing.

[dkswim]

I didn’t say I was comparing I’m just stating. And neon srt-4 the wing on it is a functional design even though it didn’t look like it was. There are other cars like that I'm not saying ours is functional other then to differentiate us from the regular 3 but is always possible it adds some down force or aids in reducing our CD.

[Hikaru9]

I didn’t say I was comparing I’m just stating. And neon srt-4 the wing on it is a functional design even though it didn’t look like it was. There are other cars like that I'm not saying ours is functional other then to differentiate us from the regular 3 but is always possible it adds some down force or aids in reducing our CD.

I believe ours is functional (i.e. adds down force). I should write to Mazda Japan to clear up the argument here since I don't own an air tunnel. *^_^*

[FlyinHawaiian]

I'm gonna jump on this sh*t-show before its too late and throw in my $0.02.

I am a big fan of aerodynamics on a car. I'll agree that my Protege does not need a huge DTM-style wing on the back with an adjustable front splitter and diffuser plates underneath. On the other hand, I will admit that once I hit 90-mph+ The steering becomes slightly twitchy, and the car DOES feel lighter. I put the 01+ front lip on the car and I noticed a small difference, but nothing to shout about. Mazda has already shown that they wind-tunnel test their cars through the MP3 and MSP. Both the MP3's and the MSP's wings generate positive aerodynamic effects and the front clip is designed to do the same.

Anyways, its a safe statement to make that most OEM wings are effective at speed. What speed you ask? Well any airfoil generates lift / downforce the instant air starts moving over it. This also causes drag. Cars like the MS3 DO need aerodynamic aids to keep it true on the highway. It's a 150+ mph car for goodness sake! Most airliners are up at that speed, so what do you think is keeping your car on the ground? Those APC wings you see can probably be set up to generate the proper amount of downforce (providing its adjustable) but the coefficient of drag they add would nullify the results. Again, OEM spoilers / wings are designed to be as efficient as possible.

Granted, physics has shown us that you don't need a wing / spoiler to keep you on the ground in your car anymore, but it is a tried and true, cheap version of doing it. I'm sure Mazda didn't want to design (or spend the money on) a full undertray with a front splitter / diffuser, NACA ducts, and rear diffuser, so they went with the cheaper, but still effective option.

And guys, instead of knocking people who are throwing an opinion out there, prove them wrong in a civil manner with numbers and knowledge and not profanity. Oh, and especially don't knock guys like Brian MP5T who have put tons of money, time, and emotion into their cars and know what they're talking about. You can learn something from, them...

-Jeff

[Sierra117]

I believe ours is functional (i.e. adds down force). I should write to Mazda Japan to clear up the argument here since I don't own an air tunnel. *^_^*

Actually, if we call the help line they should be able to tell us. I remember one story where some guy wanted to know the CoD of an RX-8 with the Mazdaspeed spolier for it, they called the 1-800 number, and found out for him.

[TurboWagon]

I'm gonna jump on this sh*t-show before its too late and throw in my $0.02.

I am a big fan of aerodynamics on a car. I'll agree that my Protege does not need a huge DTM-style wing on the back with an adjustable front splitter and diffuser plates underneath. On the other hand, I will admit that once I hit 90-mph+ The steering becomes slightly twitchy, and the car DOES feel lighter. I put the 01+ front lip on the car and I noticed a small difference, but nothing to shout about. Mazda has already shown that they wind-tunnel test their cars through the MP3 and MSP. Both the MP3's and the MSP's wings generate positive aerodynamic effects and the front clip is designed to do the same.

Anyways, its a safe statement to make that most OEM wings are effective at speed. What speed you ask? Well any airfoil generates lift / downforce the instant air starts moving over it. This also causes drag. Cars like the MS3 DO need aerodynamic aids to keep it true on the highway. It's a 150+ mph car for goodness sake! Most airliners are up at that speed, so what do you think is keeping your car on the ground? Those APC wings you see can probably be set up to generate the proper amount of downforce (providing its adjustable) but the coefficient of drag they add would nullify the results. Again, OEM spoilers / wings are designed to be as efficient as possible.

Granted, physics has shown us that you don't need a wing / spoiler to keep you on the ground in your car anymore, but it is a tried and true, cheap version of doing it. I'm sure Mazda didn't want to design (or spend the money on) a full undertray with a front splitter / diffuser, NACA ducts, and rear diffuser, so they went with the cheaper, but still effective option.

And guys, instead of knocking people who are throwing an opinion out there, prove them wrong in a civil manner with numbers and knowledge and not profanity. Oh, and especially don't knock guys like Brian MP5T who have put tons of money, time, and emotion into their cars and know what they're talking about. You can learn something from, them...

-Jeff

Thank you Jeff, for giving one of the most educated responses thus far. This was what I was originally expecting the conversation to turn to and it went horribly wrong.

However, maybe some people should limit their arguments to private messages seeing as while Brian MP5T has contributed a good deal of information to the thread he has also had quite a bit of other nonsense along with Ryz, dkswim and myself to some degree.

I would just like this to stay on topic. Seeing as it hasn't been locked by moderators just yet, with more posts like FlyinHawaiian maybe we can keep it that way.

[FlyinHawaiian]

Thank you Jeff, for giving one of the most educated responses thus far. This was what I was originally expecting the conversation to turn to and it went horribly wrong.

No worries man... I woke up on the right side of the bed today so I thought something constructive might be nice to add... haha

Hopefully someone can give us solid numbers sometime. I'd like to see what the Cd (coefficient of drag) is on the MS3 spoiler versus the pounds of downforce / stability that it gives.

[mazdaspeed32007]

ENGINEERED AERODYNAMICS

Special attention was paid to achieve aerodynamic performance that supports stable straight running, lane changing and overtaking at high speeds. A wide variety of underfloor parts, including flaps ahead of the front and rear wheels to control airflow and a full undertray below the engine, were employed to achieve the superior aerodynamic performance targets, and the result is a Cd of 0.32. Clean aerodynamics also deliver a car that is quiet and comfortable to drive at all speeds.

MAZDASPEED DESIGN DNA

MAZDASPEED3 's styling pursues a look of strength and solidity in a design that conveys the car's dynamic performance. Its form is characterized by boldly flared front fenders and effective use of strong edges on the hood. These combine with the functional forms of the bumpers, spoilers and other parts developed for aerodynamic performance. Overall, MAZDASPEED3's design is sporty and strong, befitting a high-performance model, without exaggerated styling cues.


best i could find so far. (dont take things so literal. i was just kidding with the guy when i was crackin jokes. whoever landed one on me right after my comments made me laugh. im not making a personal hit or anything nor do i take em that way. cant be serious all the time. you wont live long that way.)

[happy and angry]

The rear spoiler on the North American Speed3 is as functional as any spoiler on any vehicle is. At speed, it spoils airflow over the rear end which, in effect, kills lift. It's probably not aerodynamic in that it provides actual downforce, but that doesn't mean it's not still acting as a spoiler. By virtue of it being there, it's functional, even if only at speeds far above your normal highway cruise.

[redspeed]

If it "kills lift" then is actually applying downforce.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downforce

[happy and angry]

No. It spoils the airflow at the tail end of the car to prevent lift being generated. It does not HAVE actively generate downforce or act as a wing pulling the vehicle to the ground to have positive effects on rear end stability at speed. Preventing lift from being generated is not the same as generating downforce.

Read:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoiler_%28automotive%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoiler_%28aeronautics%29

Pay very careful attention to this section:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoiler_%28automotive%29#Passenger_vehicles

Fluid dynamics and aerodynamics are pretty complicated, but in this case the Wikipedia article does a sufficient job of explaining the benefits of a spoiler.

[redspeed]

I stand corrected. (second)

[mazdaspeed32007]

i love how people use wikipedia as a reference now. imagine writing an essay or passing work into your boss with a works cited or paraphrase from wikipedia. lol. shit cracks me up.


By virtue of it being there, it's functional, even if only at speeds far above your normal highway cruise.

and also...happy and angry...the speed 6's spoiler is only useful in one manner...to hold a brake light. from what ive heard and from what ive seen, oh...and ive seen things, the lip on the 6 is just another piece of cosmetic plastic. so all factory spoilers arent functional.

[mazdaspeed32007]

http://www.lennardwander.nl/weblog/pics/spoiler2.jpg

howdya like dem apples. remember this from GT? badass car. freaky ass wing. oddly enough it works. at mach one speeds. lol.

[happy and angry]

A spoiler is not an air foil that generates downforce. The fact that the words are used interchangeably doesn't mean that their function is the same, which they aren't. A wing isn't a spoiler.

Let's try this again. ANY smooth shape (like say, a car) moving through air that has something at the trailing edge that disrupts airflow and generates turbulence (like say, a spoiler) has the effect of disrupting the aerodynamics of the shape. In the case of a vehicle, this means it prevents lift from being generated to some greater or lesser degree. You could slap a 2x4 on the back of your car and experience this, although it would be ugly and less effective than something properly designed to do the job.

And for some reason you criticize me using wikipedia for simplicities sake, and then post a picture of a car from a video game to make your point? If the wing on the back of that Skyline is properly shaped, it is most definitely generating downforce. Race teams don't slap things on their car that will act as drag at high speed unless it's functional.

[RSX_CONVERT]

i've been watching this thread for a while, and thought i'd add another little tidbit that no ones mentioning. note: im an electrical engineer who works on fighter jets, so my specialty isn't really aerodynamics, but i do get in on it from time to time. Some people have gotten it right by stating it's a tru spoiler and not a wing. It doesn't create downforce, it's creating more turbulance behind the car. Think about driving behind a semi, or even race cars drafting behind each other. You draft because the mass of vehicle in front of you is displacing air, and creates a pocket of dead air behind it. This essentially means the car is pulling behind it a slug of dead air that slows it down. This is how cars slingshot around each other during races after closely drafting their opponent, since the car they were drafting is also partially pulling them forward. This is also why you see some semis with tiny little fins all over the back edges of their trailers, to improve gas mileage and handling characteristics of their trailers by getting rid of this dead zone of air.

[Mocoso]

This thread is in dire need of a Spectre Gun Ship...