FMIC versus SMIC which is better [Archive]

zoom 79gc

10-17-2007, 07:02 AM

CantCMe

10-17-2007, 07:33 AM

I was thinking of going to a front mount intercooler as opposed to a side mount intercooler . Have heard a few people say that the fmic will cause the car to be laggy, and that the side mount unit is better (if you are not going past 10 psi on your boost )also that turbo spool is faster on the smic . So really not being a expert on this i have decided to ask the masses and a few of the rocket sceintist that we have on the forums for some more knowledge .
Would like to know what your answers amd opions would be
Thank you to all who post, as I am a bit of a newbie and still learning(bow)

I'm still learning about turbos myself, and everyone has told me already if I'm gonna stay between 8-10psi I should get the SMIC, but if I wanna go past that then I should get the FMIC (the one thing I do know is there def be turbo lag with the fmic at low boost)...and you came to the right place. This forum is filled with knowledgeble people about EVERYTHING with our cars.

AcolyteMSP

10-17-2007, 04:13 PM

10 psi SMIC the boost lag would barley be noticible especialy to someone new to turbo. Personaly i dont think the 200-350rpms will make that much of a difference if it was even that bad. For the price of good SMIC compared to FMIC these days it would seem dumb not to get FMIC unless you plan on returning the car to stock to sell or what not.

This Looks to be a VERY promising and affordable FMIC (http://http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123678740)

He is going to use 1 peice pipes where as most FMIC kits use a millon miles of pipes with a million breaks and couplers. im waiting for this bad boy personaly. The core is HUGE will fill the bumber nicely and probably easily support up to 27psi (way beyond what any of us will ever see)

2.0t03speed

10-17-2007, 04:20 PM

umm i woudlent see past 12 on the stock motor with out timing control and a j&s. but i say fmic just for the bling factor =D

1moreMPH

10-17-2007, 11:08 PM

there are pros to the smic, yes. But if you ever plan for any real power, it will not suffice. yes you'll have faster spool up, yes it's ADEQUATE for 9psi or less, and yes it will flow a decent amount, but you will never get close the cooling and power that a fmic has to offer.

I would say that fmic is the only way to go, especially considering that with piping + bov + smic is going to be close to the same price of a fmic kit. I would personally stick with small fmic's if you're going for moderate power goals and/or little boost (stock-14psi). Hiboost and BEGi are relatively small ones (i have the hiboost and it's great) and the CS is probably the next step up as offered as a kit. The Perrin is a monster.

If you custom your own, it will be the cheapest and best but for a noob that may be difficult. If you want to custom, i would get something a little larger than the hiboost. check the web for specs.

a new IC opens this car up soooo much, you will not be dissappointed. It's definitely been my favorite mod to this car, besides my custom tune (glare)

SeR_Cyclops

10-17-2007, 11:16 PM

their is so many topics on this and I'm going to shoot you straight, no one can agree so go with what you like your self i personally like the fmic just cause they look bad ass and you get more for dollar spent, a smic will cost you a little under what you can get a fmic for so all in all its a personal preference

mazda03maniac

10-18-2007, 12:25 AM

kind of like what everyone else has said. you need figure out what your future goals are for the car. don't buy a smic if your future plans are gonna need a fmic. why waste the money. i have been over this many of times and i am gonna go with the fmic when i get the money saved up for it. but like i said it all depends on what your plans are for the car. If you have anyone that can help you custom make a fmic i would do that cause you can save lots of $$$. Plus i think everyone likes the look of a fmic.

geomatics_tech

10-18-2007, 04:41 PM

SMIC + meth = better than FMIC

yashart_mp3

10-18-2007, 04:47 PM

SMIC + meth = better than FMIC

:) great minds think alike

fr0st

10-18-2007, 04:56 PM

i for one bought SMIC and am very satisfied... i dont even plan to pass 10 psi anyways so i needed something pretty much bolt on.. and in deep snow like here a FMIC is not the best thing.... which might be the cast of others but still..

i'd rather get to 10 psi on a forged engine and leave it at that.. for log time reliability... if this ever exist on a msp... then the tranny will go out anyways..

right now i see this car as a dead end/bottomless pit..

but i still love it..

not all cars that go way up in HP absolutely need a FMIC.. look at a 99 and less mitsu eclipse.. you can get to 300 hp on the stock SMIC.. i assume a custom msp SMIC can do that if the engine is forged.. im not talking 300 WHP here.. engine HP. :)

1moreMPH

10-18-2007, 08:33 PM

fr0st

10-19-2007, 06:15 AM

what is customMSP's smic upgrade rated at as far as flow? I doubt it will flow enough air properly for 300hp, and god only knows what the stock MSP smic will flow -- maybe 170?

fmic + meth = better than smic + meth :). I am looking into that one.

true.. but,

at let's say 9 psi on the stock turbo, are you in reach of maxing out the custom MSP SMIC ? must be more like 12 and at 12 with no forge is dangerous territory

so unless you plan on forging later down the line, why use a FMIC ? okay maybe for you folks in florida and texas for the heat.. over here in summer were RARELY get to 85-90... nights here in the summer went to 68-70 on lucky days..

Knox Joe

10-19-2007, 06:38 AM

(the one thing I do know is there def be turbo lag with the fmic at low boost)..

wrong.

I'm running 7psi with FMIC, I had the same set up with upgraded SMIC and there is no difference in lag, and/or throttle response.

fr0st

10-19-2007, 08:14 AM

livelyjay

10-19-2007, 08:38 AM

I had fuel issues with my iON FMIC and CAI. The car seemed slower off the start than my friends MSP that was stock. When I would autocross, after the car warmed up, I would bog between gears. I installed the SplitSecond AFC and it helped a little, but still did not solve the bogging problem (paying for a tune might have helped out). I am now back to stock and the car is slower overall, but it pulls off the line faster and no more bogging issues. There's my experience with the FMIC. I have no experience with the upgraded SMIC, but down the road I might get one just to see what the difference is.

BOOSTR

10-19-2007, 08:57 AM

Bottom line is get the one you want and don't let the opinions of others impact your buying decision. Each one has its pro's and con's. Get the one that is best for your needs and move on.

FWIW, I run a CustomMSP without issue down here in Florida. Running over 10 psi of boost has not been a problem when I choose to do so. My car pulls hard all day long no matter how much boost I am running.

jred321

10-19-2007, 09:03 AM

neither is better, they each serve their own purpose and there are pros and cons to each. once you figure out your use you can then determine which to buy. it's basically like asking which turbo is best. there is no answer. if you're building a drag only car, you can go huge because it doesn't matter if you have no power below 6k. but if your car is built for day to day driving that'd be terrible. to figure out which turbo to buy you would have to figure out what you're going to do with the car. same goes for the intercooler, fuel system, intake, everything.

yashart_mp3

10-19-2007, 09:26 AM

I run the Turbohoses SMIC Version 2. The endtanks are larger, the piping is larger, and the core is slightly bigger. Lag is non-existent. And this puppy can support well over 10psi. IMO, this is the best way to go. At one point I did have their version 1 SMIC, and this is 100 times better. The revised one (V2) pulls harder and flows better. FMIC results without the hassle or lag.... can't beat it.

LOL, the only FMIC that I have heard that does not create lag is the hiboost. I never had a hiboost FMIC, but I did have the Perrin. And that puppy at stock boost was HELL. Talk about lag.... I think a hamster could have beat me in a race with that thing.... Now turn up the boost and its a completely different story.

evilmonkeyMSP

10-19-2007, 10:11 AM

LOL thats becuase at 7 PSI it took 5 minutes to fill that enormous Intercooler w/ air before it made it to the throttlebody hahahahaha

LOL, the only FMIC that I have heard that does not create lag is the hiboost. I never had a hiboost FMIC, but I did have the Perrin. And that puppy at stock boost was HELL. Talk about lag.... I think a hamster could have beat me in a race with that thing.... Now turn up the boost and its a completely different story.

Knox Joe

10-19-2007, 11:04 AM

well tha last msp i tried got against at a traffic light, the guy had a FIMC of some sort , CAI and BOV...

the 2 lights we tried he was behind be in the first 2 gears and then pass me fast.. it had lag for sure.. maybe all setups aren't the same when it comes to FIMC and to that, maybe SOME DO have lag..

Ricers with OVERSIZED FMICs have lag. (braindead

So what.

To say a blanket statement like; "the SMIC is the best option" or "FMIC have more lag" is fucking retarded. Too many people on this forum say that and it's BS.

jred321

10-19-2007, 11:12 AM

To say a blanket statement like; "the SMIC is the best option" or "FMIC have more lag" is fucking retarded. Too many people on this forum say that and it's BS.
can you explain why, if the core is the exact same, a fmic would not have more lag? the only way to accomplish this would be with less piping which is pretty hard to do.

fr0st

10-19-2007, 11:18 AM

Ricers with OVERSIZED FMICs have lag. (braindead

So what.

To say a blanket statement like; "the SMIC is the best option" or "FMIC have more lag" is fucking retarded. Too many people on this forum say that and it's BS.

i think what YOU'RE saying is retarded... instead of just bitching people in the thread why not add you own personnal experience and try to do it with an objective look..

can you explain why, if the core is the exact same, a fmic would not have more lag? the only way to accomplish this would be with less piping which is pretty hard to do.
thew only other factor is filling up the pipes.. which have volume too..

Knox Joe

10-19-2007, 11:30 AM

i think what YOU'RE saying is retarded... instead of just bitching people in the thread why not add you own personnal experience and try to do it with an objective look..

I only said I'm tired of the misinformation here. I never bitched at anyone.

It's all in your perception.

I guess you relate what you read to yourself, and your own way of thinking so you thought it came off as an attack.

I thought he had been told, somewhere on here, or some ricer out on the streets, that FMIC has more lag, since he stated he was unknowledgeable, and that seems to be the concensus from people without a direct comparison, and was telling him not to listen to the asshats here who say that.

jred321

10-19-2007, 11:32 AM

thew only other factor is filling up the pipes.. which have volume too..
yep, and given that the FMIC on the MSP will have more piping than the SMIC, an FMIC has to be more laggy unless you use significantly smaller piping for the FMIC to account for the volume difference (which you don't want to do). so an FMIC is more laggy naturally on the MSP all other things being equal and saying so is not a retarded statement.

the difference that you may experience in practice is mostly in the core. if the SMIC uses a crappy core and the FMIC uses a good core the lag induced by the IC system could be the same even though the volume of piping is different. at that point it is 1 specific system vs another specific system, not FMIC vs SMIC

Knox Joe

10-19-2007, 11:33 AM

can you explain why, if the core is the exact same, a fmic would not have more lag? the only way to accomplish this would be with less piping which is pretty hard to do.

Because there's enough boost to overcome the slightly longer piping.

Physics really.

The benefit of having a properly sized FMIC set up is direct airflow, and cooler charge air, but WTF do I know, it's not like I have tried both ways or anything...(yupnope)

jred321

10-19-2007, 11:47 AM

Because there's enough boost to overcome the slightly longer piping.

Physics really.

which physics? as far as i know boost is a measure of pressure. one factor in pressure is volume. if there is more volume it's going to take more air to reach that pressure level. getting more air from the turbo takes more time. more time means more lag.

Knox Joe

10-19-2007, 11:54 AM

which physics? as far as i know boost is a measure of pressure. one factor in pressure is volume. if there is more volume it's going to take more air to reach that pressure level. getting more air from the turbo takes more time. more time means more lag.

Like I said, there is enough pressure (boost) to overcome the loss you get from slightly longer piping.

Resulting in,,,,

no lag.

Is it that hard to understand?(dunno)

The amount of volume added in piping is minimal when compared to the pressure created by your turbo.

jred321

10-19-2007, 12:00 PM

i don't think you really understand what "boost" is or how your turbo creates "pressure"

FLAMSP

10-19-2007, 02:31 PM

Ok, I live in Florida avg. temp in summer is 90 and 74 in winter, plan on boosting 9-10 PSI with supporting mods. FMIC or SMIC? At 10 PSI will the FMIC still have lag?

Rush

10-19-2007, 03:57 PM

Thread cleaned up.

While I understand everyone's frustrations with the repeated thread titles, the incorrect information that can be posted, and so on -- it doesn't give ANYBODY the right to speak to others in a condescending matter.

If you can't control your mouth or your temper, please refrain from posting.

I'm sorry that I have a life other than modding the MSP section. If there was some magical way to prevent such repetitive thread-making, believe me, I'd do it in a second. But I can only do so much, and try to do the best I can.

Back on topic, please.

Knox Joe

10-19-2007, 03:59 PM

i don't think you really understand what "boost" is or how your turbo creates "pressure"

Sorry man, it's you.

How can you honestly think that a turbo does not put out enough pressure to compensate the minimal added volume of the piping, and core?

That makes no sense.

Shadow102

10-19-2007, 04:10 PM

Ok, I live in Florida avg. temp in summer is 90 and 74 in winter, plan on boosting 9-10 PSI with supporting mods. FMIC or SMIC? At 10 PSI will the FMIC still have lag?

do you ever plan on going more than 10psi?

a effecient SMIC would be perfectly fine in your situation. You could get away with a hiboost FMIC if you would like the bling bling factor but it wouldnt be needed. With such low boost levels and the t25 being at a pretty optimal boost level in it compressor map and a SMIC like turbohoses or customMSP you shouldnt have anyproblem.

jred321

10-19-2007, 04:14 PM

Sorry man, it's you.

How can you honestly think that a turbo does not put out enough pressure to compensate the minimal added volume of the piping, and core?

That makes no sense.
a turbo does not push out pressure. it pushes out air molecules at a velocity. that velocity is faster than the engine will take in on its own. the air travels down the pipes and essentially because it's being shoved in by the turbo faster than it is pulled out by the engine it backs up. as it backs up the turbo continues to spin and positive pressure is created, or boost. once the air has backed up enough that it is at the preset level of the boost controller the wastegate opens so the turbine does not spin any faster. if there is a greater volume of piping to fill it takes longer for that buildup to occur because it needs more air molecules to fill it. thus more volume in piping increases lag

it's better to think of it in terms of air molecules than just as air. X number of air molecules fit into a tube of length Y at pressure Z, or Z=X/Y. if you increase Y you must also increase X in order to maintain the same ratio, Z, otherwise your ratio becomes smaller because the denominator becomes bigger

505zoom

10-19-2007, 04:26 PM

There are always trade-offs with any given setup, but saying one is better is like arguing about what food you like best. I don't want a IC that heatsoaks after a few blasts, but I don't want a IC that takes all day to fill when I am running low boost.

I know a few people who have gone with a upgraded SMIC, and they heatsoaked it constantly and wished they had gone with a FMIC. I also know a few people who have gone with a FMIC, didn't run enough boost to overcome the extra lag, and later wished they had gone with a SMIC.

For my setup and goals with the car, I prefer FMIC. Working on a shorter pipe setup for it though.

zoom 79gc

10-19-2007, 06:31 PM

First off, I would like to thank all of you who took the time to read and express your opinions on this matter . once again it shows the strenght of this forum. After reading and keeping up with this thread, I think a few of us have learned a few things, which is what this thread was started for.Once again thanks to all who voiced there opinions!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Knox Joe

10-19-2007, 07:54 PM

a turbo does not push out pressure. it pushes out air molecules at a velocity. that velocity is faster than the engine will take in on its own. the air travels down the pipes and essentially because it's being shoved in by the turbo faster than it is pulled out by the engine it backs up. as it backs up the turbo continues to spin and positive pressure is created, or boost. once the air has backed up enough that it is at the preset level of the boost controller the wastegate opens so the turbine does not spin any faster. if there is a greater volume of piping to fill it takes longer for that buildup to occur because it needs more air molecules to fill it. thus more volume in piping increases lag

it's better to think of it in terms of air molecules than just as air. X number of air molecules fit into a tube of length Y at pressure Z, or Z=X/Y. if you increase Y you must also increase X in order to maintain the same ratio, Z, otherwise your ratio becomes smaller because the denominator becomes bigger
Exactly, and as I said that small amount of added volume is not enough to really noticeably effect it.

505zoom

10-19-2007, 08:14 PM

Exactly, and as I said that small amount of added volume is not enough to really noticeably effect it.

That's the thing though, on some of these FMIC kits, the extra volume is not just a small amount, it is actually like 2 to 3 TIMES as much. I agree that on some setups it can be overcome, but when running lower boost, it can make a big difference to throttle response and low end power.

Knox Joe

10-19-2007, 08:17 PM

Like I said, ricers with oversized intercoolers will have lag. Anyone who knows anything about tuning can pick the proper parts and basically eliminate lag.

Shadow102

10-19-2007, 08:52 PM

Lag is like the mafia....everybody knows it exsists but nobody is will to talk about it

Knox Joe

10-20-2007, 04:57 AM

I'd admit it if I had it, but I don't. (shrug)

Shadow102

10-20-2007, 08:54 AM

i have it and honestly sometimes lag isnt such a bad thing it allows me to keep traction a little better seeing as with the t25r peak boost likes to come on just as you hit peak torque rly low in the rpm range breaking the tires loose

CantCMe

10-20-2007, 05:17 PM

Shadow102

10-21-2007, 08:26 AM

So if you weren't gonna boost past 10psi which would you use?

probably a used turbo hoses or custom MSP setup with hard pipes. i have used a turbohoses setup before and it was nice gave it a better pull from down low. I am now running a perrin setup (couldnt pass up the deal i got) but it doesnt hit as hard down low although i dont plan on sitting the boost where it is now forever

AcolyteMSP

10-21-2007, 11:13 AM

probably a used turbo hoses or custom MSP setup with hard pipes. i have used a turbohoses setup before and it was nice gave it a better pull from down low. I am now running a perrin setup (couldnt pass up the deal i got) but it doesnt hit as hard down low although i dont plan on sitting the boost where it is now forever

What is your PSI right now on the Perrin?

1moreMPH

10-21-2007, 11:32 AM

Ive driven similarly set-up msp's with the Perrin fmic, TurboHoses smic, CustomMSP smic, and the HiBoost fmic (my own).

I will say that with the hiboost, because it is relatively small, there is no real lag. Our turbo is pretty small and spools up very quickly, so i agree with Knox that the change in volume isn't significant enough to give lag. boost rise IS a tiny bit slower than a smic, but hardly noticeable unless you obsess over it.

My experience with the smic's -- great product. Flowed well, really opened up the car, decent cooling i assume because the car pulled way harder. However, after a few runs it does get heat soaked and you lose a lot of power (as in it fealt close to stock). Yes this was in texas, yes it was hot, but regardless the thing sits in your engine bay so it's gonna get hot for everyone. fmic's are easily cooled by ambient air, smic's are not.

The Perrin absolutely does lag. It is a GREAT intercooler and does its job incredibly well but by shear size you can notice a definite lag. If you're looking for big boost, big numbers, larger turbo, etc. then this is absolutely the system for you, but im sure it could be frustrating for some in a daily driver.

ALSO -- BIG THING you have to account for that most people don't think of about fmic. YOU WILL WANT SOME SORT OF ENGINE MANAGEMENT. When you add a big-ass intercooler with a ton of piping, you change the engine's system A LOT. There's more volume, the turbo is working more, the air travels farther from the MAF to combustion, and it's cooler. The stock computer doesn't agree with things very well. My friends' car with the Perrin was almost un-drivable on the stock computer, but once tuned it was fine. My car wasn't quite as bad, but it was very frustrating due to bucking, bogging, great power/then none, initial lag when you punch the gas, etc. Some sort of engine management will save you a lot of frustration, not to mention give you more power. It basically just ties everything together so it works together for you. A smic won't require this, though it definitely helps :)

sorry for all that length, but those are my experiences. All those cars had cai, the mentioned IC, hardpipes, 3" exhaust, 8-9 psi. I have ran my car with the hiboost on stock cpu, stock unichip, and custom-tuned unichip. The Perrin i drove with stock ecu, then tuned MPI.