rx-8 vs. MS3

[konvex1]

Which is faster? Which handles better? Which would you get?

[evilmonkeyMSP]

the MS3 is definitely faster in straightline. But comparing the 2 as in "which would you get" is a hard comparisson, they are completely different cars in different categories. 1 is a 4 door sedan and the other is a RWD sports car powered by a rotary...

[BlackCherry06]

Faster in a straight-line race: MS3
Faster around a track: RX-8

Even though I'm not that fond of the body style of the MS3 (was really hoping for a sedan when they came out) I would be happier without all the quirks the RX-8 brings to the table. I'm sure there are plenty of success stories that remain untold, but the horror stories I've read about that car are more than enough to keep me from even looking at one. IMO, I don't think an RX-8 is happy being a commuter or grocery getter. It wants to be on a track having the crap revved out of it, eating apexes for lunch. The kind of driving it will see in an average day puttering around town is actually worse for the engine than a track day.

If you want a great-handling, reasonably powerful car that can transport 4 people in a pinch, and you don't mind winding an engine to 8K to get any real power out of it, get the 8.

The MS3, IMO is far more user friendly and quite a kick to drive. Room for 4, or 5 if you're desperate or a whole lot of 'stuff' with the seats folded down. Show it love with premium unleaded and use good quality fluids and it'll love you back.

It really depends on what you need a car to do for you.

[TRSpeed3]

Faster in a straight-line race: MS3
Faster around a track: RX-8


and your basing this on???I drove an RX-8 around the track...I did two laps when the zoom zoom live tour came to miami and let me tell you there is no way in hell that the RX-8 is faster than an MS3 around the track...The RX-8 was lacking power and had to hold the revs high to try and get some power....And the RX-8 has very little aftermarket...I raced a local RX-8 around here with a turbo kit and it was still slow as a snail....Imop the MS3 is by far a supperior car and out classes the RX-8 in any category....

[numbnuts22715]

and your basing this on???I drove an RX-8 around the track...I did two laps when the zoom zoom live tour came to miami and let me tell you there is no way in hell that the RX-8 is faster than an MS3 around the track...The RX-8 was lacking power and had to hold the revs high to try and get some power....And the RX-8 has very little aftermarket...I raced a local RX-8 around here with a turbo kit and it was still slow as a snail....Imop the MS3 is by far a supperior car and out classes the RX-8 in any category....

I think I'm going to agree with you...
Didn't the mazdaspeed3 come within seconds of tying for the record of the fastest lap around the nurburgring?
Thats one hell of a test, and for it to perform that well, thats amazing. I've never heard anything about the rx8 being amazing or anything..

it handles prettty well, its just not amazing.

[SwampAss]

what record around Nurburgring? Not a record for street cars.

[Mocoso]

I think I'm going to agree with you...
Didn't the mazdaspeed3 come within seconds of tying for the record of the fastest lap around the nurburgring?
Thats one hell of a test, and for it to perform that well, thats amazing. I've never heard anything about the rx8 being amazing or anything..

it handles prettty well, its just not amazing.

While it handles well and has a lot of power for the class I would have to say the MS3 coming close to a record at the ring is a "Maybe" but the "record" in question was prob. for a specific car category... no way in hell the MS3 is even coming close to the fastest overall lap around the nurburg ring - just NOT going to happen no matter how many mods you throw at it.....

And IMHO the MS3 is faster in a straight line and on the track... the RX-8 rotary just doesnt have the enough power/weight ratio.... assuming it could take a turn at a higher entry speed it would quickly lose that advantage as it accelerated up to speed towards the next turn

[evilmonkeyMSP]

Power doesnt equal handling...

[Mocoso]

Power doesnt equal handling...

If you were refering to my post... I agree with you that is why I said assuming the Rx-8 can enter a turn at a higher speed - Im giving the Rx-8 the benefit of better handling... I just dont think the handling differences will outweight the power/weight penalty even on the track

[BlackCherry06]

MS3 0-to-60-mph time: 5.8 sec
Quarter-mile time: 14.4 sec @ 99 mph
Power (SAE net): 263 bhp @ 5500 rpm
Torque (SAE net): 280 lb-ft @ 3000 rpm
Curb weight: 3200 lb

RX-8 0-to-60-mph time: 5.9 sec
Quarter-mile time: 14.6 sec @ 96mph.
Power (SAE net): 238 bhp @ 8500 rpm
Torque (SAE net): 159 lb-ft @ 5500 rpm
Curb weight 3067 lb

I don't see these specs putting the RX-8 behind the MS3 on a track.

[jred321]

i looked to try to find times for the same tracks for each. the only one i found was http://www.fastestlaps.com/track7.html which puts the 3 MPS at 1:19.6 and the rx8 at 1:19.8. pretty much the same. the nordschleife time for the 3 MPS is 8:39 http://www.fastestlaps.com/track2.html which is definitely not anything near a record so it must have been a specific category if it was true. those times of course are not all inclusive but they give at least some ballpark figures

i would say they're neck and neck with the RX8 making up its time in the corners and the MS3 making up the time on the straights

[clos561]

drivers race...on a track

[altspace]

Way to many pros/cons of each vehicle to list here and the fact it all boils down to personal needs and desires. I owned a P5 before my 8 and loved everything about it but the lack in power. I then test drove the MS3 and for me in terms of power, sure it's a fast car. Alas my heart had always yearned for the 8. Especially after driving it in 2005 and 2006 Zoom Zoom Live events. I no longer needed a 5 door vehicle.

I read all the information regarding recalls and found my perfect pre-owned 2004 RX-8. Purchased February and has been a blast to drive with not a single issue. Turns heads all over because lets face it, it is quite unique in every aspect of design and technology. It may not be "faster" in some ways than a MS3, but it hauls me around town just fine.

So if you want a vehicle to go fast, be able to mod like crazy and haul a bunch of stuff....go for a MS3.

Just my .02

[SwampAss]

Solid post altspace.

[sanblaster]

Solid post altspace.


Like usual.

[MS3ICA]

on youtube the ms3 ran nurigburg in 8min 39 sec

[evilmonkeyMSP]

Hi! And welcome to post #11 (http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3395269&postcount=11)

(2thumbs)

on youtube the ms3 ran nurigburg in 8min 39 sec

[MS3ICA]

oh whoops..lol

[TRSpeed3]

hate to sound like an ass but didnt a Mag like motor trend or something like that have an article saying that the HP that mazda claimed for the RX-8 wasnt the real numbers...and the real numbers were drasticly lower...

[evilmonkeyMSP]

that was when the RX8 first came out...the HP numbers listed are the actual hp numbers.

[TRSpeed3]

ohh well here is a cut and paste from Car And Driver..
The RX-8 is great at speed, but getting up to speed is a challenge. With only 159 pound-feet, the RX-8 has less than half the torque of the Shelby GT. The six-speed gearbox and short gearing don’t alleviate the problem, either. On steep grades, downshifts are required from sixth gear to hold a constant speed, and two-lane passing requires a downshift to third and a planted right foot. The lack of oomph was more than a source of constant frustration — running the RX-8 near its 9000-rpm redline burns a lot of fuel as well, resulting in a cruising range of less than 250 miles.Get off the highway, and the annoyance caused by the wheezy engine subsides as cornering speeds increase. The suspension takes hits from the road like a champion prizefighter, so much so that during our driving loop the RX-8 was actually the fastest car on real-world roads.On the track, the Mazda couldn’t make up for its woeful lack of torque and posted the slowest time around the circuit. But just as on the street, the RX-8 inspires confidence in the driver to carry more speed through the corners, and the challenge of maintaining velocity in this car is ultimately more rewarding than relying on the gas pedal in the others to make up for your mistakes. That’s not to say some extra power isn’t sorely needed here — it is — but even at the ripe old age of five, the RX-8 pleases us the most.

[TRSpeed3]

The Mazdaspeed 3 is not as precise an instrument as the Mini, but with way more power—263 horsepower versus 172—it lapped nearly seven seconds quicker. In the process of turning laps at VIR, the Mazdaspeed bounds up and down to a fair degree and is also harder to position accurately, due to its less direct steering and less rapid rotation when you lift the throttle. The Mazdaspeed’s brakes also get softer with increasing laps, but they repeatedly stop the car effectively. Although not a surgical instrument on the track, the Mazdaspeed 3 was always easy to control.

[Foolish]

But comparing the 2 as in "which would you get" is a hard comparison, they are completely different cars in different categories. 1 is a 4 door sedan and the other is a RWD sports car powered by a rotary...


...and yet, these two cars are both right up at the top of my list for my next car because they are both Mazdas, they both have great handling, manual transmissions, good looks, power, 4-wheel disk brakes, some space for cargo and back seats for my munchkin. They are far more comparable to each other than they are to Miatas or 5s.

[CaSHMeRe]

Faster in a straight-line race: MS3
Faster around a track: RX-8



http://www.motortrend.com/features/112_0706_americas_best_handling_car/laguna_seca.html


Car and Driver's 'Lightning Lap' performance benchmark
Mazda MX-5: 3:29.3
Honda Civic Si: 3:26.5
Volkswagen GTI: 3:25.1
Mini Cooper S: 3:22.9
Ford Mustang GT: 3:20.9
Chevy Cobalt SS Supercharged: 3:20.6
Mazda RX-8: 3:19.0
Mazdaspeed 3: 3:16.0
Pontiac Solstice GXP: 3:15.7
Mitsubishi EVO MR: 3:13.5
Nissan 350Z: 3:12.5

MS3 FTW ALL THE WAY !!! Faster in a straight line and around the track.

The RX-8 is a disgrace to the mazda community in my opinion

[BlackCherry06]

I get my information the hell from people who own the car and who have shared their experiences on other boards. Would you mind telling me how the hell your little M/T article relates in any way to what I wrote about day to day life with either car?

[sanblaster]

You're loco if you think the rx-8 is a disgrace.. Clearly not the fastest but, best looking mazda imo.

[CaSHMeRe]

I get my information the hell from people who own the car and who have shared their experiences on other boards. Would you mind telling me how the hell your little M/T article relates in any way to what I wrote about day to day life with either car?

My bad, didn't read your entire post. so i do apologize for that.

i was mainly going off of straight line/track times, etc...

And yes, the RX8 is a disgrace. Way underpowered, and it dropped the legacy that the rx7 used to hold.

Mazda had the chance to bring it to the table, but they didn't.

EDIT: fixed previous post to reflect what i was countering.

[Betelgeuse]

And yes, the RX8 is a disgrace. Way underpowered, and it dropped the legacy that the rx7 used to hold.

Mazda had the chance to bring it to the table, but they didn't.



+1

I have to agree with this although I wouldn't quite call it a disgrace. It just didn't carry the rx7 legacy and Mazda did drop the ball. They haven't given up on it though so hopefully they'll rectify the situation in a future model.

[Bravnik]

I just purchasing an RX8 for the wife and the MS3 for me. Problem solved.

[stevekt]

I'm very happy with my MS3 and I wouldn't trade it for an RX8. One of the reasons I chose the MS3 is because it looks cool and sporty without looking too flashy or aggressive. A flashy car doesn't fit my personality. When people ask me what I drive I say a "Mazda 3" or a "little Mazda wagon". Most don't even know what a "Mazdaspeed3" is let alone what it is capable of. Only a few people out there know the "little Mazda wagon" can hang with cars costing many thousands of dollars more. I like the fact that I can blend in with the Sentras and Corollas but I can hang with the 350Zs and Mustangs.

[Foolish]

I just purchasing an RX8 for the wife and the MS3 for me. Problem solved.


Now that is a plan! :D

[jred321]

It just didn't carry the rx7 legacy
given that it wasn't meant to then it would appear they succeeded. if it was meant to "carry the rx7 legacy" it would have been the RX-7 not the RX-8.

[TRSpeed3]

MS3>RX-8 end of thread

[CX-7owner]

The RX-8 is very nice, the engine is great although it does not feel very torquey, it picks up speed nicely, my mom just got one and it is a nice 4 door coupe, still no comparison to a FWD with a turbo.

[clos561]

I'm very happy with my MS3 and I wouldn't trade it for an RX8. One of the reasons I chose the MS3 is because it looks cool and sporty without looking too flashy or aggressive. A flashy car doesn't fit my personality. When people ask me what I drive I say a "Mazda 3" or a "little Mazda wagon". Most don't even know what a "Mazdaspeed3" is let alone what it is capable of. Only a few people out there know the "little Mazda wagon" can hang with cars costing many thousands of dollars more. I like the fact that I can blend in with the Sentras and Corollas but I can hang with the 350Zs and Mustangs.

edit - "beat 350z's and mustangs" (boom01) lol

[jhowey]

Remember, the RX-7 was 40k new in 1993, that might be the first reason the RX-8 didnt hold the legacy. Mazda was trying to make one of its trademarks more well known in an affordable, econimcal rotary. But as most know that is relativly impossible. If at all this is where Mazda dropped the ball. However they did succeed in bringing Mazda back into the limelight with this car. Furthermore for those who have read about it and not driven this car take this car out downshit into second and hit a right hand turn at 40 and watch the car point. Only car I have personally driven with that kind of handling capability.

[evilmonkeyMSP]

Base Price in 1995 for an RX7 was $33,603

[evilmonkeyMSP]

cheaper than most of the cars in its category at the time.

[shamrock]

Isnt the RX-8 base price like $34K. For that price I would mutch rather go for a STI. Also didnt the ratary engine have some issues with burning oil or something. I drove my friends 8 and at first it was wierd seeing how it redlined at 9K. I didnt get to take it through any curves, but it didnt seem that quick. MS3 all the way(bow). I would like to see these two cars on a track though

[jhowey]

Agreed, but it had a hard time targeting the people in that category, most people who were buying a 33k+ car odds are after mark up and tax 40k, were not looking for a high maintantce unproven motor in most peoples eyes. They would stay with the corvette or more of a luxury line. Honestly in 1998 if you said rotary, most said what. And the ones that did know either knew everything about how it works or nothing. The big thing was to get this motortype out into the market, and I would hope as discussed Mazda follows with a high end overly powerful rotary. Now that there is a larger knowledge of the car.

[evilmonkeyMSP]

all rotaries burn oil....it is injected into the rotor housing for combustion...



Isnt the RX-8 base price like $34K. For that price I would mutch rather go for a STI. Also didnt the ratary engine have some issues with burning oil or something. I drove my friends 8 and at first it was wierd seeing how it redlined at 9K. I didnt get to take it through any curves, but it didnt seem that quick. MS3 all the way(bow). I would like to see these two cars on a track though

[jhowey]

I may be mistaken, but didnt the Rx-8's start at like 25k and went up through 34 for like a gt with appearance package and nav.

[shamrock]

all rotaries burn oil....it is injected into the rotor housing for combustion...

Does Mazda put that on the window sticker(rlaugh)

[evilmonkeyMSP]

lol no idea, but owners are made aware... its how a rotary engine works, they all have OMP(oil metering pumps) which pump oil into the housing...

[Falconx84]

However they did succeed in bringing Mazda back into the limelight with this car [rx-8]. Furthermore for those who have read about it and not driven this car take this car out downshit into second and hit a right hand turn at 40 and watch the car point. Only car I have personally driven with that kind of handling capability.
(iagree)
The RX-8 was the car that turned me onto mazda. I was a honda-head for the longest time and the engine and style made me look to mazda. Then I test drove both of them and signed papers on the MS3. If it wasn't for the RX-8, I never would have found myself in a mazda dealership

so in that respect, from a business standpoint, I'd say the RX-8 succeeded

[Foolish]

Does Mazda put that on the window sticker(rlaugh)

No, but it was in the owner's manual for my '87. Rotaries burning oil is not news.

What's the computer industry joke? It's not a bug, it's a feature!

[redspeed]

Honestly in 1998 if you said rotary, most said what. The big thing was to get this motortype out into the market.

Did you mean 1988 or something? Sorry my friend but the rotary engine has been around for about 36 years with the initial sale of the R100 Familia Rotary Coupe in 1971. So.....NO (no) It wasn't the big thing to get this "motortype" in the market in 1998, it was back in the 70's.

[Falconx84]

actually.... it WAS a big thing to get this motortype back into the market. The new motor had to meet the new emissions standards that helped to kill the rx-7.

And people still don't really know what a rotary is - I heard of a lot of "4-cyl" rotary motors when I was shopping for a used rx-8

[MS3katyTX]

I just wanted to put in my two cents as a current MS3 owner, formally an RX8 owner.
The MS3 is much faster than my RX8. The RX8 was a better handling car, more exotic looking, but performance was horrible due to the lack of torque mostly. The mods for the RX8 were very expensive and would only yield minor improvements. Maintenance was also expensive on the RX8 especially adding oil constantly.
I will say this about the MS3 though. Going from the RX8 to MS3, I feel like I'm driving an SUV because you are sit so low in the RX. The car is definitely quicker, but the shifter and suspension are sloppy in comparison to the RX8. Easily resolved through modding of course.
My point is that they are two different classes of cars, but I would not give up my speed to go back to an RX8. Just my opinion having owned both.

[Mocoso]

Agreed, but it had a hard time targeting the people in that category, most people who were buying a 33k+ car odds are after mark up and tax 40k, were not looking for a high maintantce unproven motor in most peoples eyes. They would stay with the corvette or more of a luxury line. Honestly in 1998 if you said rotary, most said what. And the ones that did know either knew everything about how it works or nothing. The big thing was to get this motortype out into the market, and I would hope as discussed Mazda follows with a high end overly powerful rotary. Now that there is a larger knowledge of the car.


Hey now I resent the corvette OR more of a luxury line (shocked) - it wipes the leather off most those "luxury lines" yer referring to ;-)

[redspeed]

actually.... it WAS a big thing to get this motortype back into the market. The new motor had to meet the new emissions standards that helped to kill the rx-7.

And people still don't really know what a rotary is - I heard of a lot of "4-cyl" rotary motors when I was shopping for a used rx-8

If you're talking about the RX-8, yes thats correct. But I think he was saying it was the big thing to reintroduce it in 1998. The RX-7 last year was 1995 and the RX-8 was introduced in 2003.

[Falconx84]

I wasn't sure about the dates to be honest... and i was too lazy to look them up

apparently we agree, in a round-about way, lol

[Betelgeuse]

given that it wasn't meant to then it would appear they succeeded. if it was meant to "carry the rx7 legacy" it would have been the RX-7 not the RX-8.

So what was it meant to do? And what did they succeed at? Great handling cars come dime a dozen. One would think with a name like RX-8 it would be a successor and therefore improved. Instead they went backwards.

[MS6S2K]

I owned an RX8 for 2 years. There is no question it's the best looking sexiest Mazda out there. Several problems though that led me to get rid of it. First off, the car was a BLAST to drive. I happen to like high revving, I also like torque, This car is so smooth, and accelerates very nicely. The problem is it's only pushing out about 180whp on average, so it's power has always been overrated.

This car most definitely handles better then a Speed 3, but the power disadvantage will cause it to lose serious ground. It's a sports car, and it's a VERY niche vehicle, so it's not gonna appeal to a mass of enthusiasts like the MS3. Performance always seems to outweight looks with the types of people on these boards, and understandably.

However, it's really a great car. My main problem was, having to take it to the dealership constantly. I did buy it when it first came out, so there were lots of bugs to be worked out, but it drove me mad.

In a straight line, that car lacks, but I tell ya, the handling is outstanding. It's just built so well. You give that car equal power to that of the Speed 3, and it will DESTROY it it at any track. Unfortunately, that's a mute point because the car is what it is.

I still miss that car because it's the best looking machine I may ever own. The stares and drools when I got it, especially since it was hardly seen yet were ASTOUNDING. People just gawked at it. It's a looker, with decent power, great handling, and pure refinement. Takes a unique type of person to commit to a car like that, and I was not that person, but that engine in a MIATA? DREAMLAND. It's so smooth. Yeah it guzzles gas, but it's just so unique, and I hope people can respect the car for what it is, even though it doesn't meet most people's tastes regarding straght line power.

In the end, the car just has failed, because of the power. Forced induction on a rotary is fabulous performance wise, but it's just extremely unreliable, and Mazda had no choice. I'm still glad they brought it back, but there's a reason why they never made an official Mazdaspeed RX8. THe FD RX7 was a reliability nightmare, and there are still people out there that love the RX8 for what it is, so I still give props to Mazda on this remarkable car. :)

[jred321]

So what was it meant to do?
be a totally new, more practical, great handling, good looking car. just because they have the same engine and are sporty does not make one the successor of the other. it'd be like saying the MS3 is the successor to the MS6. they're not. they're similar but distinctly different. if anything it was mazda going back in time and trying to have the rotary power something other than the RX-7


And what did they succeed at?
creating that totally new, more practical, great handling, good looking car.


Great handling cars come dime a dozen.
really? we must live in different worlds. there are a lot of decent handling cars, great handling cars are hard to come by


One would think with a name like RX-8 it would be a successor and therefore improved.
why would one think that? by not calling the car RX-7 they kept the name open to come out with another one. they also didn't soil the name by slapping it on a car that is distinctly different like american car companies like to do.

on the surface, sure, both start with RX, one has a higher number so it should be the successor and better. start thinking about it and doing a little reading about the car and it makes much more sense and it is not the successor but instead its own car and the RX-7 successor doesn't exist yet

[altspace]

Why all the hate? It's just a car and we love what we love about them. Just leave it at that. Bring in a newb to start a war.

On a personal note. My P5 was a fantastic car and I looked at other brands, many mentioned here like STi, G35, 350Z, EVO, etc. Test drove them all and each had great qualities. In terms of the pre-owned market, the RX-8 was a great value for me. I too researched and weighed all my options knowing the history of the vehicle. In the end nothing could match it and because it was what I always wanted I went for it. My heart was also still with Mazda and this community. I simply could not give it up.

Moral of the story. Drive what you want, be happy and just enjoy the ride.

[Betelgeuse]

be a totally new, more practical, great handling, good looking car. just because they have the same engine and are sporty does not make one the successor of the other. it'd be like saying the MS3 is the successor to the MS6. they're not. they're similar but distinctly different. if anything it was mazda going back in time and trying to have the rotary power something other than the RX-7


creating that totally new, more practical, great handling, good looking car.


really? we must live in different worlds. there are a lot of decent handling cars, great handling cars are hard to come by


why would one think that? by not calling the car RX-7 they kept the name open to come out with another one. they also didn't soil the name by slapping it on a car that is distinctly different like american car companies like to do.

on the surface, sure, both start with RX, one has a higher number so it should be the successor and better. start thinking about it and doing a little reading about the car and it makes much more sense and it is not the successor but instead its own car and the RX-7 successor doesn't exist yet

When you made the statement 'great handling cars are hard to come by' and then proceded to compare the ms3 to the ms6 to prove a point, I decided to throw in the towel. We'll agree to disagree.

[Mocoso]

My vote for best commenst are for those that came from those who had both or have had both Rx8 and MS3 at one time... I for one agree the RX8 is a better looking car than the MS3 - Both serve a niche market albeit the Rx8 has a more visible niche (most cant tell a MS3 from a regular M3) - I think most of us agree handling is better on the Rx-8 but the power/weight ratio is better on the MS3...

Sidenote: Betelgeuse I think you missed the point jred was trying to make with the MS3 and MS6... all he meant was Rx8 shouldnt be assumed to be the next better Rx7.... aka a BMW 5 series isnt necessarily a next better BMW 3 series.... (Note: Im not getting in the middle of who is right/wrong.. just clarifying the comparison - right or wrong thats all yer fight)

[funkyman]

The MS3 stock time is 0-60 in 5.4 and though close,the stock Rx8 is also no match to the MS3 either, around any track.However the Rx8 is still a nice looking car.Also,mostly ,the overlooked stopping power and performance on a MS3 is amazing and rivals the super cars like Porche and Ferrari as clearly seen on the test charts.Stopping quick can save your life.Though the Ms3 may look similar to its sibling 3 series,there are over 100 differences between the 2 cars.
We musn`t forget the Rx8 also came out almost 4 years ago.

[fourthmeal]

I know its completely sacrilegious (yes I checked the spelling) to suggest this, but the RX-8 would be the ultimate sports car with a non-rotary motor! Now, I've owned an RX-7 before (1986), and I can tell you that with the way it eats fuel (like its free or something), and with the complete lack of torque, the engine just doesn't fit into today's premier engine choices.

I mean, just imagine that our 2.3 Turbocharged DISI engine was stuck in a body that was as advanced as the RX-8. What would be the result? One hell of a ride, in my opinion. If one were to take advantage of today's best ball-bearing turbos, and work on the balance of lag vs. overall boost pattern, just what could you do with the car?? 300HP, 300ft/lbs or maybe more?

I do believe that back when the rotary engine was first used that it was a viable option, given the weight and (relative) complexity of standard otto-cycle engines at that time. Mostly iron block, iron heads, complex ignition systems with points, etc. Oil wasn't good at reducing all the friction inside a standard engine. The wankel was the very essense of simplistic and futuristic design. Fuel was cheaper, too, and burning a little oil wasn't an issue with anybody, either.

Today, even though it is a cardinal sin, it would be one of the best things Mazda ever did...place an advanced engine such as the DISI turbo 2.3 into a smart, capable chassis like the RX-8. Granted, you could NOT call it the RX-9 (because the "R" is Rotary.) Still breaking with tradition could result in one of the most capable sports cars out there.

If there is still an argument out there for rotary engines, it has to be for the Quasi-Turbine. Look it up sometime on "How Stuff Works", and tell me what you honestly think.

[Betelgeuse]

Sidenote: Betelgeuse I think you missed the point jred was trying to make with the MS3 and MS6... all he meant was Rx8 shouldnt be assumed to be the next better Rx7.... aka a BMW 5 series isnt necessarily a next better BMW 3 series.... (Note: Im not getting in the middle of who is right/wrong.. just clarifying the comparison - right or wrong thats all yer fight)


The difference is, the ms3 and ms6 are aimed at different markets just like the 3 and 5 series beamers so those aren't good comparisons. The mazda 3 is the successor to the protege so a better comparison would be a mazdaspeed protege and ms3 and not many would disagree the ms3 is an improvement. The RX-8 is supposed to be Mazda's high performance sports car akin to the s2000, 350z, STI, etc. It is in the same position the rx-7 was back in the day. Back then there was the supra, 3000gt, 300zx etc and the rx-7 was more than adequate to compete. The RX-8 just isn't up to the task (yet) imo. I don't hate the car, I'm just a little disappointed by it.

[jred321]

The difference is, the ms3 and ms6 are aimed at different markets just like the 3 and 5 series beamers so those aren't good comparisons.
then my comparison was perfect you're just missing it. the rx8 is not aimed at the same market as the rx7 was and was not created to fill the void created by the rx7 when it left. it is a totally different car built with a different end goal in mind just like the MS3 and MS6 or the 3 series and 5 series.


The RX-8 is supposed to be Mazda's high performance sports car akin to the s2000, 350z, STI, etc. It is in the same position the rx-7 was back in the day.
no, it's not, and that's the point i was trying to make. they knew that without forced induction, which they couldn't do reliably as was proven by the rx7, those other cars were out of their league so they decided not to try to compete with them but instead build their own, unique, awesome car.

[altspace]

"Mazda built the RX-8 just because they could." These are the words that have always stayed with me. Mazda went ahead and built something they love and not to what the market necessarily needed or in fact was going to bring in large volume. Because of this you must realize there simply is no comparison here. Ya'll can argue till ya' blue in the face. I leave you with this.

Part of a conversation with Noboru Katabuchi, "We built the RX-8 in firm belief that Mazda is the only carmaker capable of building it. The compactness of the rotay engine allowed us to create a car with sports car styling, while providing a generous-size interior. It all comes down to the rotary engine. It size gave us great flexibility in designing this car. So in short, we built the RX-8 because we could."

[altspace]

jred321...we were on the same wave length there for a few minutes.

[Betelgeuse]

then my comparison was perfect you're just missing it. the rx8 is not aimed at the same market as the rx7 was and was not created to fill the void created by the rx7 when it left. it is a totally different car built with a different end goal in mind just like the MS3 and MS6 or the 3 series and 5 series.

Are you trying to tell me the RX-8 is not aimed at the performance/ enthusiast market? If you are, then you need to put down the crack pipe.
No manufacturer who wants to make a profit builds a production car 'just because'.



no, it's not, and that's the point i was trying to make. they knew that without forced induction, which they couldn't do reliably as was proven by the rx7, those other cars were out of their league so they decided not to try to compete with them but instead build their own, unique, awesome car.

FI is not the only way to improve performance on a rotary. 3 rotor cars exist that put out some impressive numbers. Anyway I think it's a little farfetched to conclude Mazda isn't up to the task of building a reliable turbo rotary.

When you label a car a sport coupe and charge almost the same price as the competition, you ARE competing. Somebody in the market for an RX-8 will more than likely cross shop a 350z, g35, or s2000. Even a miata fits into that market segment.

[Betelgeuse]

"Mazda built the RX-8 just because they could." These are the words that have always stayed with me. Mazda went ahead and built something they love and not to what the market necessarily needed or in fact was going to bring in large volume. Because of this you must realize there simply is no comparison here. Ya'll can argue till ya' blue in the face. I leave you with this.

Part of a conversation with Noboru Katabuchi, "We built the RX-8 in firm belief that Mazda is the only carmaker capable of building it. The compactness of the rotay engine allowed us to create a car with sports car styling, while providing a generous-size interior. It all comes down to the rotary engine. It size gave us great flexibility in designing this car. So in short, we built the RX-8 because we could."

I'd like to see the entire conversation. The rotary has been around for ages and Mazda has been building cars around them for ages, so it seems a little strange he would say something like that. The RX-8 was a big let down for Mazda but they'd never admit it. But at the same, I don't expect them to. The RX-7 was where the rotary got some serious respect, not the RX-8. I think people are buying the RX-8 more for the looks than what's under the hood.

[jred321]

Are you trying to tell me the RX-8 is not aimed at the performance/ enthusiast market?
enthusiast? yes. the same clientele of enthusiasts who were shopping for the RX7? no. that level of enthusiast is out shopping the elise and other such cars now.



FI is not the only way to improve performance on a rotary. 3 rotor cars exist that put out some impressive numbers. Anyway I think it's a little farfetched to conclude Mazda isn't up to the task of building a reliable turbo rotary.
20Bs are nice. in a production car it hasn't been used without turbos though. from what i've read you can't really get torque out of a rotary without forced induction; fine for race cars, not good for street cars. can they build a reliable, powerful, turbo rotary? yes. can they do it, pass emissions, and get decent gas mileage? not quite as simple

[flipstylex]

I've read the write up's, and its quite an argument between these two cars.

My opinion is that just drive what you like, it's up to you what you want to do with that car. enough said.

on another note, rotary engine is nice for $24 thousand.
But i wouldn't buy the car, instead i bought a rotary motor half the price
07 suzuki hayabusa, sexier and alot faster ;-)

[Rotary_Powered]

For those who say the Rotors and S/Cs don't mix you need to check out the Pettit S/C for the RX-8 :)

[Mocoso]

.

Today, even though it is a cardinal sin, it would be one of the best things Mazda ever did...place an advanced engine such as the DISI turbo 2.3 into a smart, capable chassis like the RX-8. Granted, you could NOT call it the RX-9 (because the "R" is Rotary.) Still breaking with tradition could result in one of the most capable sports cars out there.



Take the Rx-8, make it a 2 door - 2 seater and push them back to make room in the engine bay for the DISI turbo 2.3 and you will have the car you are refering to... in line with the "wild child" motif call it the wc-7/8 in honor of the rx-7/8

We wouldnt then have to argue about rx-8 vs ms3... both parties would agree the wc-8 would kick the shorts out of either (and of the beast which happens to be in the shop still getting the entire wiring harness for the ecu gutted -- frigin wiring harness gremlins...... *sigh*)

[MS6S2K]

Are you trying to tell me the RX-8 is not aimed at the performance/ enthusiast market? If you are, then you need to put down the crack pipe.
No manufacturer who wants to make a profit builds a production car 'just because'.



FI is not the only way to improve performance on a rotary. 3 rotor cars exist that put out some impressive numbers. Anyway I think it's a little farfetched to conclude Mazda isn't up to the task of building a reliable turbo rotary.

When you label a car a sport coupe and charge almost the same price as the competition, you ARE competing. Somebody in the market for an RX-8 will more than likely cross shop a 350z, g35, or s2000. Even a miata fits into that market segment.

Upon it's release, the RX8 was built for the enthusiast/performance market, and general people. They had the 197HP auto. WOmen buy this car for the sexy looks and usable rear seats. a 4 dor sports car. It's not purely an enthusiast car. I test drove an 04 auto when I bought my 04 when it came out. my god that thing was so slow, but my GF would have LOVED IT TO DEATH, and she's not an enthusiast. Reminded me of the Tiburon. Great looking car, all show no go. Then I drove the 6 Speed. NIGHT AND DAY, and I bought it.

Mazda put out the RX8 in MASS form in 2004, and it failed. There were leftover 04 models even at the end of 2005 selling for 9k-10k off msrp. I was on the RX8 boards and people were snagging these fully loaded 32k msrp GT models for 23k. General consumers fear that engine, because of the horrible reliability of the last RX in 1995. It was a great idea, but the bottom line is, the car is failing. It's getting outsold by it's competitors, and the 350Z will destroy it in a straight line.


As for 3 rotor. WAYYY too costly. The car would also never meet emmision standards. Remember, that's part of the RX8's problem. THat engine is capable of more in N/A form, but the gas mileage is already BAD, and it won't meet emissions. a 3 rotor to meet today's standards. We are talking over 40k for the RX8. No one would buy it, and it would get like 10mpg. FI, unreliable on a rotary. They could make it reliable, but it would be a tough sell. Everyone remembers the FD RX7, which to me is one of the greatest sports cars ever built. The problem was it was expensive as hell, and very unreliable. I don't think Mazda wants to turbo that rotary. They would have already.

Just my .02. DOn't have to agree, it's just how I see it. :)

[Betelgeuse]

Upon it's release, the RX8 was built for the enthusiast/performance market, and general people. They had the 197HP auto. WOmen buy this car for the sexy looks and usable rear seats. a 4 dor sports car. It's not purely an enthusiast car. I test drove an 04 auto when I bought my 04 when it came out. my god that thing was so slow, but my GF would have LOVED IT TO DEATH, and she's not an enthusiast. Reminded me of the Tiburon. Great looking car, all show no go. Then I drove the 6 Speed. NIGHT AND DAY, and I bought it.

Mazda put out the RX8 in MASS form in 2004, and it failed. There were leftover 04 models even at the end of 2005 selling for 9k-10k off msrp. I was on the RX8 boards and people were snagging these fully loaded 32k msrp GT models for 23k. General consumers fear that engine, because of the horrible reliability of the last RX in 1995. It was a great idea, but the bottom line is, the car is failing. It's getting outsold by it's competitors, and the 350Z will destroy it in a straight line.


As for 3 rotor. WAYYY too costly. The car would also never meet emmision standards. Remember, that's part of the RX8's problem. THat engine is capable of more in N/A form, but the gas mileage is already BAD, and it won't meet emissions. a 3 rotor to meet today's standards. We are talking over 40k for the RX8. No one would buy it, and it would get like 10mpg. FI, unreliable on a rotary. They could make it reliable, but it would be a tough sell. Everyone remembers the FD RX7, which to me is one of the greatest sports cars ever built. The problem was it was expensive as hell, and very unreliable. I don't think Mazda wants to turbo that rotary. They would have already.

Just my .02. DOn't have to agree, it's just how I see it. :)

Well I think we agree on some things esp. on the FD RX-7 being one of the greatest. I'm not sure a turbo rotary would be a tough sell though. If you read the comments from the rx8 community, they're craving more power. I'm willing to bet it'll sell better than you think as long as the price isn't too insane. As for the gas mileage, well if it performs, I believe many would be willing overlook it.

[udontknowjack]

i was pickin between the rx-8 and the ms3.....if they have a mazdaspeed rx-8with turbo...i woulda choose that instead.....but that never happened....so ms3 win and im very happy with my decision....

[MS6S2K]

Well I think we agree on some things esp. on the FD RX-7 being one of the greatest. I'm not sure a turbo rotary would be a tough sell though. If you read the comments from the rx8 community, they're craving more power. I'm willing to bet it'll sell better than you think as long as the price isn't too insane. As for the gas mileage, well if it performs, I believe many would be willing overlook it.

Fair enough. :) I would still love to own an FD, but it's a giant money pit. I did drive one back in the late 90s, and I've never been the same. Like it or not, one word. PURENESS!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think a turbo rotary would be a tough sell, because of the price. If the price was right, no doubt, it would sell, but it cannot be cheap, so it will not sell. I'm one of those former rx8 owners that wanted more power. They overrated it. To this day it's rated at 232hp, yet dynos at about 180hp to the wheels. I own an S2000 now as my fun car, and that car has about 10-15 more whp while weighing less. Not to mention I can supercharge it safely and reliably, which is in the future.

[altspace]

I'd like to see the entire conversation. The rotary has been around for ages and Mazda has been building cars around them for ages, so it seems a little strange he would say something like that. The RX-8 was a big let down for Mazda but they'd never admit it. But at the same, I don't expect them to. The RX-7 was where the rotary got some serious respect, not the RX-8. I think people are buying the RX-8 more for the looks than what's under the hood.

Here are the 2 pages of the interview of a 64 page Road & Track supplement published in 2003. It includes RX-8 design dynamics, road tests, chassis technical analysis, in-depth look at the RENESIS, racing history and much more. Enjoy! Yea....it's so strange indeed.

[Captain KRM P5]

the same people that shop for mazdaspeed3s are not the same customers that shop for rx-8s, period. sold mazdas for a year and simply can't put the two customers into the same mold. it really comes down to preference.

the rx-8 was never meant to be a continuation of the FD. the FD was a financial disaster, end of story. that was the last thing ford wanted, and before people cry about the dreaded 'f word', the blue oval ultimately calls the shots as to what does and does not go at mazda when it really wants to. the only way mazda was able to convince dearborn to put a rotary car back on the street was to make it very unique (four doors) more reliable (non turbo) and semi-idiot proof (ridiculously complex owners manuals, at least in 2003).

now that said, i do think mazda missed the mark with this car in many respects. a fully loaded rx8 falls into the same price bracket as an STi so it would be hard for personally to take the rx8 over something like that. someone brought up the issue of horsepower being not as claimed. pretty much every mazda of that year got hit by that, but the miata and rx-8 got all the press because those were really the only two cars in the lineup where horsepower mattered. its not like this is an industry first or a major cover-up. horsepower claims are routinely fudged or missreported by vehicle manufacturers, aftermarket performance suppliers, etc etc. however, i agree the car really could have used some more punch from day one or at least some factory support in allowing the customer to pickup some MS parts to do the trick. the car does corner amazingly well, even in stock form.

as for putting something other than a rotary engine in it - what would really be the point? i think part of the reason it has sold the way it has and continues to for some degree is the fact it has a rotary engine in it. the car is coming back for 2009 as a new/refreshed model so whether we all like the car or not it has sold well enough to justify mazda/ford keeping the faith. its not a mystery since 2003 that the car is underpowered, so there has to be something else bringing people into the dealership and signing papers.

i do wish there was a mazdaspeed model or that it was faster. i don't think its ever going to happen as a factory sanctioned model. one, emissions laws and controls simply aren't friendly to making a high powered and reliable rotary. first thing a good number of us rotorheads do on older rx7s is rip off any semblance of emissions controls. they simply run alot better without it and its much easier to make power. two, ford and mazda simply aren't willing to repeat the kind of warranty fiasco they had with the FD. some could disagree with me but turbo rotaries are typically less reliable than n/a rotaries.

this is all just me adding .02 to what has become a very full piggybank. and to stir the pot even more, i've seen a bonestock rx8 run 13.8 at the dragstrip. i've worked on the car and know for a fact its bone stock so i am as mystified as anyone. you'll find, especially as to how these cars/engines are broken in, widely varying results from car to car.

[Foolish]

these two cars are both right up at the top of my list for my next car because they are both Mazdas, they both have great handling, manual transmissions, good looks, power, 4-wheel disk brakes, some space for cargo and back seats for my munchkin.


the same people that shop for mazdaspeed3s are not the same customers that shop for rx-8s, period. sold mazdas for a year and simply can't put the two customers into the same mold. it really comes down to preference.


ZOMG! Ken just disproved my existence! ;)

[Captain KRM P5]

ok, there are exceptions to every rule mind you :D

[javanc]

Sometimes its not only about raw power, but about balance. I think that the RX-8 does a pretty good job at being balanced. Here in America we are so used to seeing horsepower wars that we forget about having a well rounded car. I do believe that the men at Mazda have a little different view of making vehicles. Thats why the Miata has done soo well over the last 2 or so decades. I do own a MS-3 but thats cuz im all about numbers, but when i drove a right hand drive RX-8 Shinka, i could see what all the hype was about, just wasnt the car for me.

[Betelgeuse]

Here are the 2 pages of the interview of a 64 page Road & Track supplement published in 2003. It includes RX-8 design dynamics, road tests, chassis technical analysis, in-depth look at the RENESIS, racing history and much more. Enjoy! Yea....it's so strange indeed.

Thanks for posting this. I'll see if it's possible to dig up that edition.

[altspace]

That's just it. For a N/A rotary motor at 1.3L I think it delivers plenty of power. I believe it was in 1986 when the last N/A Rotary was introduced for the RX-7. That had 146HP at 6500 rpm and 138 lb.-ft. at 3500rpm. In 87' they added a single turbo and power was boosted to 182HP 6500 rpm and 183 lb-ft. at 3500. From 92' - 95' the sequential twin-turbo was added making 255HP at 6500 rpm and 217 lb.-ft. at 5000.

Nice write up Ken!

[altspace]

RX01 = RX8 concept

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8_oIb5GYEI

[Betelgeuse]

Well I think Mazda will finally asnwer the call for a more powerful rotary in the form of the Renesis 2:

http://rotarynews.com/node/view/947

It's about time.

[altspace]

Indeed. What? No more arguments?

[BHOUST528]

I like the rx8 for the looks and syle but i think i would have to go with the
MS3 i raced an rx8 when i had my boosted pt cruizer I smoked the 8 like it was standing still I loved that car but i was a little heavy. After beating the rex i was a lil dissapoint in a car that could be run to 9k and get beat by a pt but non the less i love the way that car looks and the 9k redline is the most impressive but for looks the rex for power and sleek,sleeper like styling its the MS3.....(dance)