FMIC or TMIC

[borderline]

What's the IN and OUT of each one?
TMIC is much more cheaper, offer good advantage compared to the stock one. Dyno Graphs result: 20 Horsepower and 20 lb/ft Torque Gains.
and it's Easy to swap when going to the dealer.

The FMIC: Dyno runs show a 10whp gain: this is less than the FMIC???(dunno)

ETS TMIC from protegegarage:
http://mazda3online.web.aplus.net/images/tmic.jpg

BEGI FMIC from protegegarage:
http://mazda3online.web.aplus.net/images/begims3fmic.JPG
http://mazda3online.com/images/begifmic1.jpg

[FunkyBuddha]

I think you just answered your own question? LOL. But with the TMIC, it's harder to work in the engine bay.

[borderline]

I think you just answered your own question? LOL. But with the TMIC, it's harder to work in the engine bay.

yeah maybe LOL, but wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something important? Cuz I can't see the advantage of going with the FMIC except for the reason you mentionned ;)

[subparpunk03]

There are pros and cons to both.

With the top mount, there is less piping, therefore less restriction, therefore easier to blow air into the engine combustion chamber. However, the cons are that there is an awful lot of heat soaking into the intercooler from the hot engine, so if you are sitting in traffic, or running the car for an extended period of time, the intercooler might become less efficient. The other problem is that although the underhood ducting is cool, it doesn't have as much air moving through the intercooler as you could if you put it on the front.

The front mount has more piping, and as a result, more restriction. However it is not going to have as much of a problem with heatsoak, and is more efficient (generally speaking) than a top mount is because of how much air is flowing over it.

So which one is right for you? Front mounts are probably better if you are thinking about putting a bigger turbo in so you can overcome the restriction through brute force, and if you plan on running your car at the track for extended periods of time.

Top mounts are better if you are looking for an easy way to bump up horsepower.

Think of it this way (speaking generally here, this may not be the case with the specific intercooler products available for the speed3)

The top mount will give you better gains out of the box.
The front mount has potential to give larger gains when proper tuning and bigger turbos are used.

The top mount will give bigger gains before heat soaks into it, but after it heats up may not give you much extra power at all.
The front mount will not get as much heat soaking into it and so will continuously give you that smaller gain.


If any of my information is incorrect please let me know, but this is how I understand the system to work.

[clos561]

heat soak...but with a vented hood i dont think it will be a problem...and if you need to work on the car that seriously..just bolt off the top mount and do your thing...

[clos561]

i was thinking about something today...if there would be a way to re-route a/c vent to the intercooler somehow..t off a vent or something for a cooling solution when your not racing just pop the ac on full blast and cool it down a bit

[Kosh]

i was thinking about something today...if there would be a way to re-route a/c vent to the intercooler somehow..t off a vent or something for a cooling solution when your not racing just pop the ac on full blast and cool it down a bit

The power it takes to run the ac compressor would totally diminish the effects of having a cooler intercooler. If you want to just use the ac while at a stop light or when you are waiting for your turn around the track I think it would be easier to install a spray kit.

Speaking of IC spray kits, maybe a bit off topic... how effective would it be to put a sprayer at the hood vent inlet at the front bumper? It would be a very easy location to install a homemade kit but would it be very effective at getting water through all the ducting and on to the intercooler? Would it spray water over the battery as well?

[chriscecc914]

or you could just use a bag of ice. I wouldnt use a spray kit unless you are careful. If Co2 gets into your air filter your motor will lock up and if NOS gets into your air filter your motor will blow up

[clos561]

yea but you cant just put a bag of ice on your ic if your street racing... im gona check and see if something like i mentioned is even possible

[Kosh]

or you could just use a bag of ice. I wouldnt use a spray kit unless you are careful. If Co2 gets into your air filter your motor will lock up and if NOS gets into your air filter your motor will blow up

I do use a bag of ice (cool) Not really practical for driving on the street but it works for autocross. I was just talking about using water spray for that setup. And how would any of that get into the air filter with the setup I was describing?

[borderline]

There are pros and cons to both.

With the top mount, there is less piping, therefore less restriction, therefore easier to blow air into the engine combustion chamber. However, the cons are that there is an awful lot of heat soaking into the intercooler from the hot engine, so if you are sitting in traffic, or running the car for an extended period of time, the intercooler might become less efficient. The other problem is that although the underhood ducting is cool, it doesn't have as much air moving through the intercooler as you could if you put it on the front.

The front mount has more piping, and as a result, more restriction. However it is not going to have as much of a problem with heatsoak, and is more efficient (generally speaking) than a top mount is because of how much air is flowing over it.

So which one is right for you? Front mounts are probably better if you are thinking about putting a bigger turbo in so you can overcome the restriction through brute force, and if you plan on running your car at the track for extended periods of time.

Top mounts are better if you are looking for an easy way to bump up horsepower.

Think of it this way (speaking generally here, this may not be the case with the specific intercooler products available for the speed3)

The top mount will give you better gains out of the box.
The front mount has potential to give larger gains when proper tuning and bigger turbos are used.

The top mount will give bigger gains before heat soaks into it, but after it heats up may not give you much extra power at all.
The front mount will not get as much heat soaking into it and so will continuously give you that smaller gain.


If any of my information is incorrect please let me know, but this is how I understand the system to work.

(yes) Everything you said makes sense, thanks for clarifying.

I need to make a decision now :)

[tru-boost]

we are in the works of developing a liquid/air intercooler for the MS3/6 cx7 right now ! liquid/air is the most efficient intercooler available. there is also going to be an option that will allow you to circulate CO2 through the water resivior. this will allow you to reach near freezing water temps. with water that cold you can actually make your intake air temp LOWER than the outside air temp !! ohh. and it will be cheaper than a FMIC ! this project is at the very begining stage of development, so it will be a while. but it will be worth the wait for those of you that are interested.

[meha11]

dont think your average joe needs to worry about heat soak, remember were not professional drivers and this is not a race car. (puts on flame suit)

[funkyman]

we are in the works of developing a liquid/air intercooler for the MS3/6 cx7 right now ! liquid/air is the most efficient intercooler available. there is also going to be an option that will allow you to circulate CO2 through the water resivior. this will allow you to reach near freezing water temps. with water that cold you can actually make your intake air temp LOWER than the outside air temp !! ohh. and it will be cheaper than a FMIC ! this project is at the very begining stage of development, so it will be a while. but it will be worth the wait for those of you that are interested.


DO you meam alcohol injection.Thats pretty hi-tech the best way of cooling,however its temporary or short spurts,not really a permanent cooling solution.

[Leshok]

Liquid to air is a type of intercooler. It takes the heated air charge, and mixes it with liquid coolant. The coolant is transfered to a heat exchanger and it is cooled off by ambient air temps. Very cool set up.

GoodLuck with the intercooler testing!

[SwampAss]

dont think your average joe needs to worry about heat soak, remember were not professional drivers and this is not a race car. (puts on flame suit)


I align my views with Meha in this statement.

[clos561]

we are in the works of developing a liquid/air intercooler for the MS3/6 cx7 right now ! liquid/air is the most efficient intercooler available. there is also going to be an option that will allow you to circulate CO2 through the water resivior. this will allow you to reach near freezing water temps. with water that cold you can actually make your intake air temp LOWER than the outside air temp !! ohh. and it will be cheaper than a FMIC ! this project is at the very begining stage of development, so it will be a while. but it will be worth the wait for those of you that are interested.


it requires changing the stock intercooler right? or is it soemthing you bolt on somehow?

[Kosh]

dont think your average joe needs to worry about heat soak, remember were not professional drivers and this is not a race car. (puts on flame suit)

MS3 is a great motorsport car. You don't have to be a professional driver to participate at the drag strip or on an autocross course. For those of us who enjoy motorsports heat soak isn't the biggest issue but it is something that can use improvement. This isn't a race car but it is a tuner car. And yes, the average person doesn't have to worry about heat soak.

[chriscecc914]

I do use a bag of ice (cool) Not really practical for driving on the street but it works for autocross. I was just talking about using water spray for that setup. And how would any of that get into the air filter with the setup I was describing?

the air filter is in the engine bay with the intercooler. Have you ever seen the NX halo ntercoolers sprayers go off. It shoots off a plume of nitrous that if your not careful will go through the intercooler fins and throughout the engine bay

[Kosh]

Ahh. No, I haven't seen a nitrous intercooler spray kit but I could see how that could be a problem with the stock intake box.

[redspeed]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercooler

[tru-boost]

DO you meam alcohol injection.Thats pretty hi-tech the best way of cooling,however its temporary or short spurts,not really a permanent cooling solution.

no iti will not inject anything. it will circulate co2 through the coolant to "super cool" it. the colder the coolant gets.... the cooler your inlet temps will be ! the heatsoak on the top mount IC does suck... bad on this car.
i can see 4 tenths of a differance at the track.

[Haltech]

no iti will not inject anything. it will circulate co2 through the coolant to "super cool" it. the colder the coolant gets.... the cooler your inlet temps will be ! the heatsoak on the top mount IC does suck... bad on this car.
i can see 4 tenths of a differance at the track.

Can i feed a suggestion that worked well on the lightning and cobra? I had a guy design an alumn res for out liquid to air intercooler that could hold ice as well.. There was 2 designs. The street had a alumn coil inside that was roughly 12 coils about 14 inch in diameter.. You could fill the box with ice and it had a petcock at the bottom for draining. This way you didnt have to worry about wasting coolant when using ice.

The second one was a race version that was a straight ice box with a petcock. There was no cooling coil inside. So ice went in with water and got sucked out the bottom from the pump.

Hell all of your parts are there from the cobra and lighting vendors for the pump, res and heat exchanger.. the only development you need to do is the actual intercooler. The pump is a ford part.

Heat Exchanger = AFCO Pro Series Double-Pass Heat Exchanger
Res = CANTON Aluminum Supercharger Surge Tank
Pump = ford part

You could also use the AFCO non pro heat exh for less money.. so between the Afco and Canton, retail is about $450 combined.. being that you guys own a shop, you guys will obvious get a lower cost on the units. Cobra tank would probably be easier to work with since its much smaller than the lightnings.

I can see this being put together for roughly $800.

http://www.rpmoutlet.com/images/afco470219.jpg
http://i17.ebayimg.com/02/i/05/fe/16/c8_1_b.JPG
http://www.rpmoutlet.com/images/can280260.jpg

[tru-boost]

we did think about ice, but as you mentioned most people will run a coolant mix.... at least at some point of the year. our design is to use a co2 coil in the resivior. this will be able to rapidly cool the water when ever you feel the need. as far as we know this design has never been done. we dont even know for sure what will happen. but the math part of it all measures up.
i dont know if any of you guys watch the show myth busters but......
the recently proved that the fastest way to make a 6 pack of beer cold was to blast it with a co2 fire extinguisher !! ice is good but it is a pain in the ass to deal with. imagine ggetting the same end result, but sitting on your ass in your car and flipping a switch !

[Ryz]

The only question I have concerning FMIC's is heat as well. Since you are heating the air that is going over the radiator as well aren't you losing efficiency by causing the motor to run hotter?

[subparpunk03]

Generally the IC doesn't block enough of the radiator to cause a big problem.

HOWEVER

Buddy of mine has a 2jz supra, put an absolutely gigantic intercooler on it, blocked too much of the radiator and he had some minor problems.

As long as the intercooler is reasonably sized shouldn't be an issue.

[SwampAss]

Generally the IC doesn't block enough of the radiator to cause a big problem.

HOWEVER

Buddy of mine has a 2jz supra, put an absolutely gigantic intercooler on it, blocked too much of the radiator and he had some minor problems.

As long as the intercooler is reasonably sized shouldn't be an issue.

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g227/Teqnyck/2jzswapwithnas.jpg

[redspeed]

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g227/Teqnyck/2jzswapwithnas.jpg

(rlaugh)(rlaugh)(rlaugh)

[BONES_GOT_BOOST]

i was thinking about something today...if there would be a way to re-route a/c vent to the intercooler somehow..t off a vent or something for a cooling solution when your not racing just pop the ac on full blast and cool it down a bit

i dont think that would be easy to do it would be easier (ive done it before) to route the windshield washer sprayer to spray on the intercooler. it would cool better

[BONES_GOT_BOOST]

The only question I have concerning FMIC's is heat as well. Since you are heating the air that is going over the radiator as well aren't you losing efficiency by causing the motor to run hotter?

thats true but it matters what kind of itercooler you use, a tube and fin is a fine fmic, you can use a bar and plate design but it is more efficient so it will block radiator flow. this can be solved by mounting the bar and plate styles at a slant. air-water intercoolers should not be used on a street car. water heats up quickly and loses its cooling efficiantly extremely fast.

[tru-boost]

when properly size IC and heat exchangers are used thay can work well on street cars. the problem is i dont think there is enough space for this project to be efficient. we will see...but it may be a scrapped project.

[numbnuts22715]

I know that when stock, the fmic only adds about 10whp, and the tmic adds around 20, but does anybody have any dynos with a front mount as well as some other mods compared to the same mods but with a top mount?

With more power, I think more heat will be produced, and that should just about heatsoak the top mount depending on how well the vented hood works.
Also, the front mount will always be getting more cooler air(i think) so there should be a point where the front mount has more benefits.

So are there any dynos to prove or disprove this?

[BluMicaR]

I went for an aggressive drive last night and was really booking it, drifting through this access road near my house - one of those roads that goes through a business park you know? I love this little car... Anyhow, it was about 69* outside, and when I got home and let 'er idle for a min or two to cool, I opened the hood. The heat coming off the bay was enough to warm my face like when you open a preheated oven for your frozen pizza. Didn't seem to me like there was any heat soaking out of there through the IC - I'm going to make cooling options a priority.

[CaSHMeRe]

I know that when stock, the fmic only adds about 10whp, and the tmic adds around 20, but does anybody have any dynos with a front mount as well as some other mods compared to the same mods but with a top mount?

With more power, I think more heat will be produced, and that should just about heatsoak the top mount depending on how well the vented hood works.
Also, the front mount will always be getting more cooler air(i think) so there should be a point where the front mount has more benefits.

So are there any dynos to prove or disprove this?

how do you know a FMIC only adds 10 whp and a TMIC adds 20 whp ???

i haven't seen 1 dyno from a member with a FMIC. Considering, there is a wopping 2-3 of us. I think i am the only vocal member with a FMIC and i have yet to dyno.

[tru-boost]

how do you know a FMIC only adds 10 whp and a TMIC adds 20 whp ???

i haven't seen 1 dyno from a member with a FMIC. Considering, there is a wopping 2-3 of us. I think i am the only vocal member with a FMIC and i have yet to dyno.

because thats what the not at all accurate ETS dyno says ?!?!
i know 2 people who have dynoed with the 3.5" ETS and neither one made more than 7 extra HP. dyon for the ms3 are tricky and very a lot from run to run it is very easy to show a difference of 20HP for no reason at all.
jusy like ETS show eveyone !

[CaSHMeRe]

lol...tru

just trying to figure out where these #'s come from, that's all.

if you are trying to compare ms6 dyno's (as far as tmic vs. fmic) drivetrain hp/tq loss is substantially different then that of the ms3, so trying to compare, isn't even viable.

[justa4banger]

There are pros and cons to both.

With the top mount, there is less piping, therefore less restriction, therefore easier to blow air into the engine combustion chamber. However, the cons are that there is an awful lot of heat soaking into the intercooler from the hot engine, so if you are sitting in traffic, or running the car for an extended period of time, the intercooler might become less efficient. The other problem is that although the underhood ducting is cool, it doesn't have as much air moving through the intercooler as you could if you put it on the front.


BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!!!! I'd like to see your testing or anyones testing that proves the BULLSHIT that just rolled on to the forum. Sorry but i have to correct false truths. Have you ever driven your car above 40 mph and then stop and feel the IC. ITS AT AMBIENT TEMP. Your not going to get any lower than AMBIENT air PERIOD. I agree the TMIC will heat soak more in Stop and go traffic, but how many drivers are racing in stop and go traffic????????


The front mount has more piping, and as a result, more restriction. However it is not going to have as much of a problem with heatsoak, and is more efficient (generally speaking) than a top mount is because of how much air is flowing over it.

Piping in a well designed setup MIGHT affect turbo lag, i doubt anyone here would be able to tell the difference. Also proper choice of a FMIC is VERY IMPORTANT. Get a FMIC with a shitload of pressure drop and YOU WILL LOSE POWER. plain and simple. I'm not going to tell you which way to go FMIC or TMIC, but keep this in mind. A LARGER CORE IC WITH LESS PRESSURE DROP AND MORE FRONTAL AREA (ON THE IC) WILL BE THE BEST REGARDLESS OF ITS PLACEMENT. If you don't understand frontal area, check my old postings.


So which one is right for you? Front mounts are probably better if you are thinking about putting a bigger turbo in so you can overcome the restriction through brute force, and if you plan on running your car at the track for extended periods of time.

Top mounts are better if you are looking for an easy way to bump up horsepower.

Think of it this way (speaking generally here, this may not be the case with the specific intercooler products available for the speed3)

The top mount will give you better gains out of the box.
The front mount has potential to give larger gains when proper tuning and bigger turbos are used.

The top mount will give bigger gains before heat soaks into it, but after it heats up may not give you much extra power at all.
The front mount will not get as much heat soaking into it and so will continuously give you that smaller gain.


If any of my information is incorrect please let me know, but this is how I understand the system to work.

If your going to upgrade your IC then choose what ever you like. ITS A PREFERENCE THING. there is not one person on here that can tell me that a FMIC will make more power than a TMIC. what i can tell you is a IMPROPERLY fitted IC will help you lose power if there's too much pressure drop.

Remember folks these are not hondas with a measely 9 psi, we run 15-17 psi or more. PRESSURE DROP becomes a big issue at high levels of boost.

CHeck my old postings for comparisons against to IC both in equal outside dimensions BUT different in design. the IC that you would think WOULDN"T cool the air very well MAKES MORE POWER, because it has less pressure drop.
Heres proof, and i have dyno sheets for those thinking i'm full of it.
26 psi 31* total timing netted 322whp and 346wtrq.
24psi 27* total timing netted 324whp and 380wtrq.
Now i'm running 27 psi and i make around 345ish whp (calculated through vehicle weight, time and trap speed at the local 1/4mile track.)

the IC's were exactly the same 18x6x3 but different in executuion of air flow through the core.

Sorry to slam subparpunk, but it is what it is........................(cheers)