The very first 400bhp SPEED3!!!

[www.cp-e.com]

We were told several weeks ago that someone installed a water/meth kit onto his cp-e equipped SPEED3, and that he made over 350whp. Being the horsepower junkies that we are anxious to get more info to share with the like-minded folks over here (thumb)

Unfortunately the best we have is a faxed and scanned copy of the dyno graph, so the quality leaves a lot to desire. What this dyno proves however, is that you can make serious (and safe) power with the right modifications. It also proves that water/meth can be a great addition to any car that is running out of fuel up top. We were told that pre-water/meth, the car was around a 12:1AFR. After spraying, the car dropped down to about 10:1! So you can make a wicked 400bhp stock turbo MS3 if you're smart about your mods.

Modifications are: cp-e XCel intake, cp-e catless downpipe, cp-e catback exhaust (single muffler), cp-e Standback engine management, and water/meth kit (brand unknown):

http://www.mustangmods.com/ims/u/535/644/190087.jpg

Thought you guys might enjoy seeing a SPEED3 EVO eater (wiggle)

[bbychvz]

that is sweet(headbang):eek:

[aftershock63]

congrats!

[MS3ICA]

awsome!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[www.cp-e.com]

Thanks guys! I'll see if I can get the owner to post some comments here.

[clos561]

try to get a video on youtube

[Refonbass]

thanks for posting the graph Jordan. Sorry about the quality guys.
This car is quite a beast, let me tell you. The only issue that I'm having with all that I have done to it is the turbo seal issue that many are having with upgraded exhausts. There is a big track day coming up on the weekend, so I'll have some track times to go along with the dyno numbers!

[07speed3]

thats amazing...sorry for the newb question but what exactly is the water/meth injection...is it like nitrouse? how does it work?

[TRSpeed3]

thanks for posting the graph Jordan. Sorry about the quality guys.
This car is quite a beast, let me tell you. The only issue that I'm having with all that I have done to it is the turbo seal issue that many are having with upgraded exhausts. There is a big track day coming up on the weekend, so I'll have some track times to go along with the dyno numbers!

What meth kit did you go with???Wat mix did you use???wat size sprayers did you get???do you have a fail safe???

[TRSpeed3]

thats amazing...sorry for the newb question but what exactly is the water/meth injection...is it like nitrouse? how does it work?

It sprays a mixture of water and meth into the piston to cool the charge and lets you compress more air if im correct...

[funkyman]

OK i`m a little confused as to the technical side of various exhaust modifications etc,so i would be greatful if you bring about a detailed explanation.
On your web site the your cat back turbo exhaust apparently gives 30hp to the wheel and so does the downpipe.
Since we are not going to get 30hp per upgrade as such is it necessary to upgrade both or only one and is the downpipe compatible or upgradeable with a Garret Gt30r turbo.
What is a test pipe and which of these would give the most HP at the wheels alone.

[www.cp-e.com]

thanks for posting the graph Jordan. Sorry about the quality guys.
This car is quite a beast, let me tell you. The only issue that I'm having with all that I have done to it is the turbo seal issue that many are having with upgraded exhausts. There is a big track day coming up on the weekend, so I'll have some track times to go along with the dyno numbers!


Thanks so much for coming in and posting! And no need to apologize for the quality, we were just thrilled to finally see the dyno in person (drinks)

Actually, someone from another forum was asking a bunch of good questions, so if you don't mind I'd like to pass them on to you. Is PM okay?

Thanks again (alright)

[07speed3]

It sprays a mixture of water and meth into the piston to cool the charge and lets you compress more air if im correct...

so basically it works like nitrouse except a different thing getting sprayed in there.

[dkswim]

are you using windshield wiper fluid????

[TRSpeed3]

Read if you are thinking of trying water/methanol injection

What is Water/Methanol Injection?

Water Injection or Water Methanol Injection, is a process by which a mixture or water and Methanol are injected into the fuel/air mixture on the way to the combustion chamber. Water/Methanol Injection provides "Chemical Intercooling" inside the cylinder. By injecting water and methanol in a finely atomized spray, the water is able to evaporate under the high temps of a firing cylinder, and when the water evaporates, it takes heat with it. The methanol also has a cooling and octane boosting effect as it burns.

How does water/methanol injection allow your engine to produce more power?

The production of more power by a water/meth injected engine is not a by-product of the water/meth mixture alone. You must tune for it to get the most out of it. The evaporative effects of the water/meth mixture, plus the octane boost, allows you to run more advanced timing, and boost, thus increasing power. Methanol having the octane boosting effect, you can adjust your AFR's with tuning, and be able to run the same AFR as a pump gas tune with less fuel added to the fuel map of your engine managment. When the system is spraying, methanol is making up for the fuel that gets taken away during the tuning process. You end up with about same 12.5:1 or so AFR with less pump gas added, you also increase knock resistance, and due to the octane boosting effect, you can add timing and boost to make more power safely.

What is Methanol?

Methanol is the simplest alcohol compound, comprised of one carbon atom, one oxygen atom and four hydrogen atoms (CH3OH). It is also referred to as wood alcohol, carbinol and methyl alcohol. It is poisonous, flammable and relatively volatile. It has no taste or color, but it does have a slight scent.

Methanol is used as a fuel and an antifreeze, and to make formaldehyde. It is also added to ethanol to make it unpalatable so that it avoids taxes on drinkable alcohol, as ethanol without a denaturant of some sort is consumable by humans. Methanol was first discovered in 1661, though it had been used without isolation by peoples as far back as the Egyptians in their embalming processes. The name comes from methy, meaning wine, and hyle, meaning trees.

Methanol is used as a fuel source by some, though its use is limited by its volatility. The main area in which one sees methanol being used is in many top-end racing engines. The vehicles in the Indy 500, for example, are all run on methanol. This methanol is usually produced using a fossil fuel as the synthesis gas, either natural gas or petroleum.

Many renewable energy advocates see methanol as an ideal fuel source, with distinct advantages over hydrogen. When methanol is made from materials such as wood, it is often called bioalcohol. The theoretical use of methanol as a widespread fuel source has given rise to a theory describing what is known as the methanol economy.

In the methanol economy, the common fuel is methanol, with non-renewable fuels having a minority share or being entirely unused. George Olah, a winner of the Nobel Prize, is a strong advocate of this path. Advocates point out that in contrast to hydrogen, methanol is relatively cheap to produce, can be manufactured with little or no waste, is efficient to store and can be made from sources other than fossil fuels. Also, while conversion to a hydrogen economy would require major changes in infrastructure, methanol could be phased in relatively easily because of its interoperability with fossil fuels. One can mix methanol with gasoline to produce hybrid fuels while making the shift in economy.

Unfortunately, methanol is very toxic and contains a number of hazards. It is less volatile than hydrogen, but also much heavier, which could allow contamination in the case of spills or tank leaks. A wide range of groups are constantly looking for new and innovative uses for methanol, and it seems apparent that it will have a role in the energy economy of the future. Whether that role is as the key player or a supporter to hydrogen or some other fuel source remains to be seen.

Can you run just water injection without methanol?

Yes, but you will not be able to take advantage of the octane boosting properties of methanol, thus you will get cooling from the water, but no increase in octane. Without methanol, you may not make as much power, as it acts as a detonation inhibitor, and you may not be able to run a leaner AFR as you could with it.

What supporting upgrades are required for water/methanol injection?

At minimum you should have some sort of engine management that can be tuned, I.E. able to adjust timing, boost, and fuel curves, to compensate for the octane boost, and cooling effects, and be able to take advantage of them to make power. Otherwise you can run water/meth injection on a stock car with tunable engine management. You do not have to have after-market intakes, exhausts, intercoolers, or strengthened internals. Although with more supporting mods that already increase the volumetric efficiency of the engine, the more power that can be had.

Who makes Water/Methanol injection systems?

There are many manufactures of water/injection systems:

These are some of the more popular and most inclusive kits for the money
www.aquamist.co.uk
http://www.snowperformance.net/
www.coolingmist.com
www.alcohol-injection.com
www.enginerunup.com
www.fjoracing.com/products/waterinjection
www.smcenterprises.com/subaru.htm
Here is a link to Richard L's Sticky with details on companies:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=958501
Who is the best manufacture to go with?

That is up to debate, but when you choose a kit, look at all the components that come with the kit, or if you can buy extra pieces that you may need, or think you need I.E. Level switches, fail safes, extra nozzles, varible controllers.
Also consider what type of reservoir you are going to have to use, or does the kit include one?
Most companies have some sort of reservoir, some make you use the existing windshield wiper tank, or make you supply your own.
Also read other peoples experiences with different kits as far as setup, price, inclusiveness of kit (does it satisfy all your requirements part-wise), power gains, etc.

How do I know how big a nozzle to run?

Here is a water injection calculator to assist in this
Calculator

Another injection calculator
[/url]=http://www.alcohol-injection.com/for...read.php?t=351[/url]

It is at the bottom of the page...

Here is a volume converter also, to cross reference nozzles. Some companies list volumes of their nozzle in metric, some in standard units of measure.
http://www.sciencemadesimple.net/volume.php

Where can I get methanol?
One of the best sources that some probably don't realize is from wal-mart or anywhere that sells basic windshield wiper fluid. Just make sure you don't get the stuff with Glycol in it...this is the same stuff used in engine anti-freeze. It won't work well, or could damage you engine.

Other sources:

http://www.vpracingfuels.com/vp_01_f...55#special ty

This one has a comprihensive list of suppliers all over the USA

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=121500

You can buy on-line from these guys:
LINK
www.pricechemical.com/order/
www.powermist.com/distrib.html
www.worldwideracingfuels.com/catalog_c30755.html

Those are just some.

Are there any water injection forums I can learn more from?

Yes, here are a few:

Aquamist's, probably has the most info and activity
www.waterinjection.info/phpBB2/
www.waterinjectionforum.com
www.waterinjection.info
http://snowperformance.net/forum/
www.alcohol-injection.com/forum

How do I know what mixture to inject?

THe best rule of thumb is a 50/50 mix of methnol and distilled water

Some use more meth, some use less. But windshield wiper fluid is commonly between 35-42% methanol, which will usually work fine. The best mixture is proportionate to your particular state of tune. A little less methanol could possibly cause detonation. Mixing it yourself maybe the best way to know what is right for you.

Here is a freeze table for methanol also:

http://www.ashchem.com/adc/chemicals...=3&is_header=N

Just be careful with methanol as it is corrosive, toxic, and a carcinogen. Please be careful if you decide to mix your own brew.

Here is a link to a methanol hydrogemeter:

http://www.sjdiscounttools.com/ezrs104.html

Here is a great how to page:

http://www.dawesdevices.com/howto.html

Can you build your own kit, and how?

You need some basics to build your own system.

You need a pump with adequate pressure, most people use some type of diaphram pump, from ShurFlo for example.

You need nozzles

You need tubing

You need a trigger to turn on the system at the right time, some type of pressure switch...Some engine management such as TurboXS UTEC has a spare solenoid that can be setup to run your water injection system.

Many of the things needed for setting up a system can be found at these suppliers

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg...UseBVCookie=no
http://www.fastenal.com/web/products...l.ex?sku=68424
www.mcmaster.com/

And here is a great how to page on building your own...
http://www.projectwrx.com/modules.ph...howpage&pid=34

Can water/meth injection cause damage to my engine?

As with any aftermarket part, yes it can.

If you are running water/meth injection, you are risking detonation and catostrophic engine failure shoud you system fail or not run at optimum efficiency. This is due to the fact that when tuned you will be running advanced timing, boost and leaner fuel trims that would normally not be possible without water/meth injection. Loss of the system while under heavy load may not be able to be compensated for in time, and could cause detonation at best case, and engine failure at worst case. Be careful, and make sure you use a failsafe, or a tune that retards timing at the onset of knock, and some sort of level indicatior for the reservior, to ensure you know when the tank is getting empty. Nozzle clog indicators are not a bad idea either. They are especially important if using tap water, or not using a filter in the system, to catch impuritiies. This is why distilled water is best for this application.

Can I run without a external intercooler?

Yes, but your tune has to be setup to compesate for it. Advantages to running without a TMIC or FMIC are better spool of turbo and response, due to less volume to fill up. But again, you must make sure your system is working properly all the time, some have experimented with not using an external intercooler with success.

What gains can be made from water/meth injection?

This all depends on the current setup of your car, type of car, and your tuners ablilty. All your supporting mods such as exhaust, intakes, turbos gains are best realized with some sort of aftermarket tuning. The same it true with water/meth injection. But generally gains of 20-30 Hp and 20-30 ft/lbs of tq are common, making this one of the best bang for the buck power upgrades for your car. Your gains of course depend on supporting mods you already have in place, that will let you take advantage of the tuning to a higher degree.

[Nburvi1]

wow thats insane, great work guys...

[clos561]

trspeed............waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much information

[TRSpeed3]

trspeed............waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much information

Sorry just trying to help....All i know is alky is teh shiznuts....My boy did the aquamist system on his evo and was able to up the boost by 5psi safely, able to play with timming more, and able to play with fuel better too...I think he gained about another 10-15hp due to all of that if i remeber corectly....

[knowledge007]

Damn yo, how long did it take you to write that post...?

[TRSpeed3]

Damn yo, how long did it take you to write that post...?

Cut and paste from the subby forums......

[CaSHMeRe]

Cut and paste from the subby forums......

lol... that is what i was thinking !!!

great and informative post however! (rockon)

[TRSpeed3]

lol... that is what i was thinking !!!

great and informative post however! (rockon)

Cash dont you remeber you and me had abit of an argument as to how effective meth would be over nos......I think my point is starting to be proven...:cool:

[CaSHMeRe]

Cash dont you remeber you and me had abit of an argument as to how effective meth would be over nos......I think my point is starting to be proven...:cool:

ofcourse i remember. (bowdown) ...lol

however, meth can only go so far! nitrous the rest of the way. nice to see good results on an MS3 ...

[TRSpeed3]

ofcourse i remember. (bowdown) ...lol

however, meth can only go so far! nitrous the rest of the way. nice to see good results on an MS3 ...

HAHA....Cant wait to have some extra cash to star moding...

[clos561]

Sorry just trying to help....All i know is alky is teh shiznuts....My boy did the aquamist system on his evo and was able to up the boost by 5psi safely, able to play with timming more, and able to play with fuel better too...I think he gained about another 10-15hp due to all of that if i remeber corectly....

yea i know it was jsut funny seeing so much shit on the post...i read the beginings of each paragraph cuz then it starts getting way to in depth for shit i already know

[justa4banger]

Yea i'm in talks with SMC for a meth kit on the SVO.
I'm hoping that i will be able to run this to alliviate my need for 2 qts for torco per tank (little pricey.)
i don;t think i'll gain much in the way of hp , because i'm already using a method that raises octane, but it should cost me a lot less to maintain and run after the initial investment.

Gains are very dependant on a number of factors. Some cars gain as much as 70whp other 15whp, just depends.

I'm hoping for my setup and with the addition of a cam i can break 400whp on my 2.3.

Great posting. More info like that needs to be posted to inform the newbs.....:D

[mrlilguy157]

got me excited.

i just am scared to run standback with no plug in play. is it wire taps or splicing?

[Haltech]

Jordan, when i call to get my Standback, i hope you have a Meth Unit in beta i can try... (hump)

[www.cp-e.com]

got me excited.

i just am scared to run standback with no plug in play. is it wire taps or splicing?


If I remember correctly, you'll need to splice into 5 wires, and cut and solder 6 of them (actually 3, but you solder each side). The installation really isn't too bad, especially since the ECU is in the engine bay as opposed to being underneath the dashboard like it is on the SPEED6 (what a pain!). If you can solder, then you can install a Standback on a SPEED3. The only downside of the wire-in unit are the potential warranty complications, but even then the unit comes with a bypass plug so that you can totally remove the unit from the system.


Jordan, when i call to get my Standback, i hope you have a Meth Unit in beta i can try... (hump)


Actually, I think we might!

I think Josh mentioned to you that we have already have a controller completed, but we still need to source the rest of the kit (pump, lines, nozzle, etc.). When you call, please voice your intentions to someone (either myself or Josh) and we'll see if we can sneak one out for you to use.

[Tom03es]

You may want to check the links copied/pasted in post #15. The long links that got truncated down didn't copy well.

Good job though.

[Kooldino]

Very cool. Gotta love water:meth.

People seem reluctant to get into it for some reason, not sure why. I've been sitting on some kits for a few months now.

[Haltech]

Very cool. Gotta love water:meth.

People seem reluctant to get into it for some reason, not sure why. I've been sitting on some kits for a few months now.

Until you can tune to take advantage of it, doesnt work all that well on the sick, pigrich MS3.. I swear by it on the Lightning and it shaved off a 5/10th in the quarter.. 2 additional seconds with nitrous. If i could only get better traction, lol.

Jordan, ill mention it when i call bro, thanks.

[dkswim]

do we have any pics of the install. i was relly curious where you mounted the tank, the pump, the injector.

[Haltech]

Ive been researching this for quite some time. You could get away with a custom res in the front lower bumper area, or the most sensible place, is the rear trunk, where i plan to mount mine. I would like to have at least a 1 gallon tank.

If i can find a decent location for the pump, than its going into the engine bay. Im not too jazzed about running a large power cable to the rear of the car if i dont have to. Wouldnt be a big deal if i had amps back there, but i dont.Not much room in the engine bay, so its going to take a little bit of work to plum it in.

Others have used the windshield washer tank for their installs too.

[Rainman]

thanks for posting the graph Jordan. Sorry about the quality guys.
This car is quite a beast, let me tell you. The only issue that I'm having with all that I have done to it is the turbo seal issue that many are having with upgraded exhausts. There is a big track day coming up on the weekend, so I'll have some track times to go along with the dyno numbers!

Oh yes....Ontario FTW! Gotta love those numbers brother. Damn, and we don't even have any Evos to terrorize here in Canada, although in Windsor you must see some from Detroit.

R

[tru-boost]

i would like some info on the install of the meth on this car. pics would be nice. i kinda want to see how the resivior is mounted. i also wanted to know, does this kit reference boost or maf readings to adjust its addition ?? i know there are kits to do it either way.

[Rainman]

trspeed............waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much information


Information is good. Helps people who haven't yet heard about it find out what they need to know in a single place.

R

[Mazda_Tech]

how much boost are you running to put down these kind of numbers with so few mods?

[rocketr2]

Very cool. Gotta love water:meth.

People seem reluctant to get into it for some reason, not sure why. I've been sitting on some kits for a few months now.

Does the water/meth sprays all the time ? or only while in boost? also how long would a 7 quart reservoir of lets say of the Snow Performance Water/Methanol Injection Kit last? And one last thing, once the kit is installed can it be removed ?

[Moonpie.Express]

Great numbers!!!

The latest issue (Sept) od Dsport Magazine has a BIG Water/Meth Injection review.

GOT METH???

[Haltech]

Great numbers!!!

The latest issue (Sept) od Dsport Magazine has a BIG Water/Meth Injection review.

GOT METH???

PDF that badboy for us!

[Moonpie.Express]

PDF that badboy for us!

I wish...my laptop has only so many functions...other than being a stcker magnet!

[dkswim]

water injection would be great when COBB realeses there AP run a high octane map and water that will make my day.

[FRUCTOSE]

Meth injection sprays at wot or at a preset point (on some kits) like when the waste gate opens, it doesn't run all the time. And most kits for dsms that I have seen are mounted right before the tb. They may be different because of our electronic tb. With the intake mani right in frount the install shouldn't be that bad. I have seen people use windshield wiper fluid because it comes premixed at a 50/50 water/meth ratio. Most kits I have seen are not that hard to install (better then doing an awd clutch job). These kits are great if your having tuning problems. It gives you a great comfort level on boost, timing advance, and a/f ratios.

[Haltech]

To expand on what imitation sugar said above, the SNOW kit i use on the truck is connected to the MAF.. I have it spraying at 3 Volts which is half throttle. The pump is at 25%... than for each half volt, i increase pump pressure 25%. The trick is tuning the right nozzle for your app. Stage 2 Snow kits have the MAF control. Ive used boost control before and my results were better with MAF. The CP-E system is a controller as well, so it should work very well.

[FRUCTOSE]

This is my fav video of water injection check it out.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=J_T83uvw_K8

here's another:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=r8QlV__Xk3k&mode=related&search=

This one should help some on questions of how some are mounted. It really pretty easy:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=nTARML7ROGE&mode=related&search=

[laloosh]

I hope youre kidding with the first two videos. Cause if your serious ive just lost all respect for you lol

[LENNY127]

that doesnt look too apetizing, the alcohol injection i understand the water injection part just seems too risky considering that there is no way to fight against corrosion and if one particular spark plug doesnt fire or your nozzle sends more water than calculated that would be like throwing a nut and bolt down your intake. then again i dont know squat about turbos it just seems like it could get very expensive if u get it wrong.

[FRUCTOSE]

I hope youre kidding with the first two videos. Cause if your serious ive just lost all respect for you lol


No I'm dead serious how would I make that up. Not all are like that but it's funny non the less.

[FRUCTOSE]

Plus that is water injection not a 50/50 mix of meth/water. It looks like the scooby, is scuba steve...(cabpatch)

[ebmp5]

Wow!!!

[mrlilguy157]

all 3 of those videos are obviously using the complete wrong nozzles.

[Sveivo]

So all that water goes through the engine?

[mrlilguy157]

So all that water goes through the engine?

in the videos yes, but its not supposed to. Water/Meth should all evaporate or be burned inside the motor. Those videos almost seem fake/flooded just for kicks.

if you do notice, the STi has a water hose right next to it and the ground is already sopping wet, S4 - same thing. they're fake/staged.

[laloosh]

do you guys actually think those car have meth injection? Deer god what kinda community do we have here?!

You know what those two vids are off? Asshole putting a hose down their exhaust, flooding it with water, starting their car and flooring the engine. Just incase some of you actually think its real

[Sveivo]

in the videos yes, but its not supposed to. Water/Meth should all evaporate or be burned inside the motor. Those videos almost seem fake/flooded just for kicks.

if you do notice, the STi has a water hose right next to it and the ground is already sopping wet, S4 - same thing. they're fake/staged.
Thanks for clarifying that.
do you guys actually think those car have meth injection? Deer god what kinda community do we have here?!

You know what those two vids are off? Asshole putting a hose down their exhaust, flooding it with water, starting their car and flooring the engine. Just incase some of you actually think its real
It's too bad I can't top your knowledge of cars and your contributions to the community.

[zoom shoes]

how much psi were u running with meth? I am really impressed to see a k04 make 350whp

[Silo]

I think none mentioned it but for cooling purpose you want to run 100% water. Methanol is used as an anti-freeze (up to 20%). Anything more is simply adding "fuel" and only neccessary if you have maxed out your cars injectors.

[LENNY127]

the videos being fake is obvious , that amount of water would immediately hydraulic your engine, (anyways thats what we used to call it in my day), but water injection.....I guess im a bit old fashioned but no2 has worked fine over the years for me although i am always open to learn new shit.

[SSMS3]

The huge octane increase from the methanol is what adds the power by allowing you to run much more timing, as Haltech said

Haltech, how long does the container in your truck last?
My brothers system is set to only spray at WOT and a washer fluid tank lasts him a month or more

[TRSpeed3]

Ive been researching this for quite some time. You could get away with a custom res in the front lower bumper area, or the most sensible place, is the rear trunk, where i plan to mount mine. I would like to have at least a 1 gallon tank.

If i can find a decent location for the pump, than its going into the engine bay. Im not too jazzed about running a large power cable to the rear of the car if i dont have to. Wouldnt be a big deal if i had amps back there, but i dont.Not much room in the engine bay, so its going to take a little bit of work to plum it in.

Others have used the windshield washer tank for their installs too.

Im planing on installing mine were the car jack is in the trunk...thats were the tank will be....and the pump as well just gonna have to run the lines all through the inside of the car but it will be a clean and stealthy install....

[FRUCTOSE]

Ya they are joking but come on.. That would destroy there engine.

The last video is how it works though.

[mrlilguy157]

even the last video had droplets falling from the nozzle. crappy spray pattern if you ask me.

i will definately be doing a meth kit and CPE's standback unit.

[clos561]

thats bullshit i think they just sprayed water into the exhaust and filmed it to say they spray water...that cant be true at all...unless the car is hydrogen fueled which it isnt.

[mrlilguy157]

thats bullshit i think they just sprayed water into the exhaust and filmed it to say they spray water...that cant be true at all...unless the car is hydrogen fueled which it isnt.

stating the obvious? (inout)

[TRSpeed3]

Well i saw that protoge garage sells the snow performance meth kit for teh speed3......maybe he used that one????Me personaly im peicing together a kit from aquamist....thats what two of my buddys are running and the quality and the kit is amazing...(not saying anything bad about snow since i havnt had any interaction with it)Just remeber if you go with a meth/alky kit to make sure you have 1 if not 2 fail safes....And when i comes down to it i wouldnt install this on the speed if i dont have a tuner to properly do it....It took my friend 3-4 hrs of dyno tunning to get the correct flow, mix, and size nozles for the best performance........

[Antoine]

Chill out guys...Let's keep this hell of a thread on track! :D

This is great news...If you knew what it took the last gen of non-rotary Mazdas to make this kind power you would realize you guys have it a lot easier! As CPE stated...It's all about being SMART about choosing your Mods...I'm more and more interested in this water/meth injection.

At what rate would these setups empty a 1 gallon tank?..Provided average use...How many "sprays" could you get from 1 gallon?

[TRSpeed3]

Chill out guys...Let's keep this hell of a thread on track! :D

This is great news...If you knew what it took the last gen of non-rotary Mazdas to make this kind power you would realize you guys have it a lot easier! As CPE stated...It's all about being SMART about choosing your Mods...I'm more and more interested in this water/meth injection.

At what rate would these setups empty a 1 gallon tank?..Provided average use...How many "sprays" could you get from 1 gallon?

From what i understand that all depends on the rate of spray, nozzle size, and pump...Some also have a on and off switch so you dont have to drive with it all day everyday..

[mrlilguy157]

From what i understand that all depends on the rate of spray, nozzle size, and pump...Some also have a on and off switch so you dont have to drive with it all day everyday..


somebody in the ms6 made a howto guide for the install.

i wonder what nozzles he went with and how its running for him? PM sent.

[clos561]

stating the obvious? (inout)

trying to.....................(hippy)

[mrlilguy157]

trying to.....................(hippy)

super duper! (breakn)

[www.cp-e.com]

Chill out guys...Let's keep this hell of a thread on track! :D

This is great news...If you knew what it took the last gen of non-rotary Mazdas to make this kind power you would realize you guys have it a lot easier! As CPE stated...It's all about being SMART about choosing your Mods...I'm more and more interested in this water/meth injection.

At what rate would these setups empty a 1 gallon tank?..Provided average use...How many "sprays" could you get from 1 gallon?

Thanks Antoine (thumb)

Tough question to answer unfortunately for the reasons TRSpeed3 stated. The quantity and duration of the spray will depend on the running conditions of the engine. Our (upcoming) meth kit uses a MAP-RPM table to indicate to the controller how much to spray. So really you'll probably be spraying some water/meth whenever you're in boost. With that said, we know of many people running water/meth on daily drivers, so as long as you don't boost too much on your daily commute, a gallon of water/meth can actually last you a pretty long time. I wish I could give you a better approximation, but there are a lot of variables unfortunately. Water/meth isn't metered the same way, say, a standard shot (50hp, 75hp, 100hp, etc.) of nitrous is.

[TRSpeed3]

Thanks Antoine (thumb)

Tough question to answer unfortunately for the reasons TRSpeed3 stated. The quantity and duration of the spray will depend on the running conditions of the engine. Our (upcoming) meth kit uses a MAP-RPM table to indicate to the controller how much to spray. So really you'll probably be spraying some water/meth whenever you're in boost. With that said, we know of many people running water/meth on daily drivers, so as long as you don't boost too much on your daily commute, a gallon of water/meth can actually last you a pretty long time. I wish I could give you a better approximation, but there are a lot of variables unfortunately. Water/meth isn't metered the same way, say, a standard shot (50hp, 75hp, 100hp, etc.) of nitrous is.

Verry true....i just talked to my buddy leaving the meth kit on driving daily on low boost 10-15 psi 1 gallon will last him about a week and a half maybe a bit less he said...(this is on an EVO)

[FRUCTOSE]

My bros snow per. kit he has on his sti is ran as a dailey driver and he has a 6qt tank and it lasts for a good 2 weeks. Depends on how often he hits wot.

And no his does't blow water out like a whales blow hole, I was just joking(hump)

[ERIC-TC]

If you want to calculate the amount of water you need just follow this spreadsheet is not that hard.

http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/10/web/2326000-2326999/2326730_16_full.jpg

I made my own kit from some off the shelf parts and some Devil's own On-Line stuff.

2 Quart tank lasted about 2.5 weeks.

Here is the link for my Water/Meth DIY

http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2326730

[Mazda_Tech]

how much boost was this turbo pushing to make this kinda HP?

[turbofever]

how much boost was this turbo pushing to make this kinda HP?

[Haltech]

I think none mentioned it but for cooling purpose you want to run 100% water. Methanol is used as an anti-freeze (up to 20%). Anything more is simply adding "fuel" and only neccessary if you have maxed out your cars injectors.

incorrect information. First and foremost, you want methanol for the OCTANE insurance, not because your injectors are maxed out. If your injectors are maxxed out, you best be fixing that problem before adding meth injection.

Yes, the water aids in cooling the intake charge. It also helps atomize the methanol. Youre roughly at 103 octane while injecting a 50/50 mix. However, 130 octane is reached running 100% methanol.. i do this at the track for obvious reasons. Running straight water does nothing but cool the intake charge, without increasing octane.

[itzl0l]

i want to know more about this particular speed3. What kind of boost? what is the hp/trq with out the water/meth?

im really excited about this...i know it worked wonders on my srt

[FRUCTOSE]

incorrect information. First and foremost, you want methanol for the OCTANE insurance, not because your injectors are maxed out. If your injectors are maxxed out, you best be fixing that problem before adding meth injection.

Yes, the water aids in cooling the intake charge. It also helps atomize the methanol. Youre roughly at 103 octane while injecting a 50/50 mix. However, 130 octane is reached running 100% methanol.. i do this at the track for obvious reasons. Running straight water does nothing but cool the intake charge, without increasing octane.

Agreed! Our injectors are far from maxed out. Its the pump! Meth/Water injection is great for this car. Last I checked higher octane was a good thing. It lets the car have tuning room, and it lets you turn everything up safely. Timing, boost, and a/f ratio.

Just think this is on a tiny turbo too! (evil)

[Silo]

incorrect information. First and foremost, you want methanol for the OCTANE insurance, not because your injectors are maxed out. If your injectors are maxxed out, you best be fixing that problem before adding meth injection.

Yes, the water aids in cooling the intake charge. It also helps atomize the methanol. Youre roughly at 103 octane while injecting a 50/50 mix. However, 130 octane is reached running 100% methanol.. i do this at the track for obvious reasons. Running straight water does nothing but cool the intake charge, without increasing octane.

I said nothing different... your points about octane might be valid (I doubt the 103 octane calculation however) but not my argument. Also you are not just cooling the intake charge when you inject past intercooler but as well the actual combustion. This in fact has a higher effect on knock protection then the a slight increase of octane number, which can not be 103 as you stated before with liquid methanol having a R+M/2 rating of just 99.

[whooosh]

all I can say is Great!
this is good news regardless of his list of mods
400HP MZR for the common man is good news for me

[TRSpeed3]

incorrect information. First and foremost, you want methanol for the OCTANE insurance, not because your injectors are maxed out. If your injectors are maxxed out, you best be fixing that problem before adding meth injection.

Yes, the water aids in cooling the intake charge. It also helps atomize the methanol. Youre roughly at 103 octane while injecting a 50/50 mix. However, 130 octane is reached running 100% methanol.. i do this at the track for obvious reasons. Running straight water does nothing but cool the intake charge, without increasing octane.

Not everyone runs a 50/50 mix my buddy runs an 80/20 mix on his evo...The 50/50 didnt do to much to his car...I guess the mix just depends on mods and how much tunning you wanna do....i will probably run a 60/40 or 70/30......

[TRSpeed3]

If you want to calculate the amount of water you need just follow this spreadsheet is not that hard.

http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/10/web/2326000-2326999/2326730_16_full.jpg

I made my own kit from some off the shelf parts and some Devil's own On-Line stuff.

2 Quart tank lasted about 2.5 weeks.

Here is the link for my Water/Meth DIY

http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2326730

Wat failsafe are you running???

[Refonbass]

funny how this turned into a thread dedicated to water/meth discussion...

to answer the boost question I'm running 18lbs.

[TRSpeed3]

funny how this turned into a thread dedicated to water/meth discussion...

to answer the boost question I'm running 18lbs.

Wat meth kit are you running???

[Metal MP5]

yeah well its great =) awesome numbers and until this thread, i didnt know much about meth/water injection. now i want it on all my cars lol

[ERIC-TC]

Wat failsafe are you running???

I was running an air-temp gauge right before the throttle body. If I saw the temps creep up then I knew that I had to dial a little more Water/Meth

I had a progressive controller that matched pump duty-cycle to PSI level. So I could make adjustments as needed.

[madeye moody]

Thanks Antoine (thumb)

Tough question to answer unfortunately for the reasons TRSpeed3 stated. The quantity and duration of the spray will depend on the running conditions of the engine. Our (upcoming) meth kit uses a MAP-RPM table to indicate to the controller how much to spray. So really you'll probably be spraying some water/meth whenever you're in boost. With that said, we know of many people running water/meth on daily drivers, so as long as you don't boost too much on your daily commute, a gallon of water/meth can actually last you a pretty long time. I wish I could give you a better approximation, but there are a lot of variables unfortunately. Water/meth isn't metered the same way, say, a standard shot (50hp, 75hp, 100hp, etc.) of nitrous is.

It seems interesting that the kits run only on MAF and MAP rather than going the extra level and adding a temp sensor input after the intercooler. What about throttle position? In most cases the only time you need the meth injection is running higher levels of boost and/or higher throttle pos and higher intake temps. If the intake charge is cool enough then the engine will have no need of the water-meth injection.
I've been considering water-meth since the day I bought this thing but I'm more or less peeping about to see what successes other people have had.
Therefore I'll probably take measurements of the intake temps vs. rpm and boost pressure and plot the data to see when the most likely time to inject it.

MAF will tell you the exact airflow coming into the engine but it says nothing of pressure ratio or intake charge temp. You can have larger amounts of airflow into the engine when the engine is not under boost at higher rpm than you can at low rpm with boost. For example, with a 100%VE engine 7psi boost at 3000rpm is equivalent to 4500rpm WOT with no boost or probably 6000rpm part throttle. I'm sure if you dial it it then for the most part it will spray around the right times but there will be times when it is spraying unecessarily if the system injects only on a specific MAF voltage.
Honestly I imagine only temp, rpm, and throttle position would be required to properly inject water-meth.

[camrycev6]

I have one big question:

How much would ALL of this cost? (Installation, parts, tuning, etc.) In other words, if I just wanted to take my car, hand it over to you (or someone like you), what would I pay for the whole 9 yards?

[laloosh]

intallation free since your doing it yourself. Intake around 300, tbe around 1200, piggy back i think is around 700, so your at 2200 and not you gotta buy the meth injection kit which if i had to guess is around 400-500. With custom tunning you under 3 grand

[CaSHMeRe]

$300-$400 parts ... install and tuning, probably another $500-$600

that would be my guess. close to $1000 for the whole sha bang

[camrycev6]

$300-$400 parts ... install and tuning, probably another $500-$600

that would be my guess. close to $1000 for the whole sha bang


What? The intake alone is around $300, how could that be it for the parts?

[laloosh]

Im pretty sure cash was talking strictly about the meth injection/custom tune

[camrycev6]

intallation free since your doing it yourself. Intake around 300, tbe around 1200, piggy back i think is around 700, so your at 2200 and not you gotta buy the meth injection kit which if i had to guess is around 400-500. With custom tunning you under 3 grand

Thanks...well the installation wouldn't be free for me, because I don't have the equipment or experience to put in a Turbo-back system.

[camrycev6]

Im pretty sure cash was talking strictly about the meth injection/custom tune

Ah...got it.

[laloosh]

equipemnt? all you need is a jack, jackstand and some basic tools. Unless you dont have them. Doing a turboback is not like installing cams, its straight forward but some of the bolts are a pita to get too.

[camrycev6]

You are probably right. The CAI looks much harder to install than the downpipe and that is already done. It is too bad Mazda doesn't offer a downpipe...I would have one is a second if it weren't for the warranty issues.

[Haltech]

I said nothing different... your points about octane might be valid (I doubt the 103 octane calculation however) but not my argument. Also you are not just cooling the intake charge when you inject past intercooler but as well the actual combustion. This in fact has a higher effect on knock protection then the a slight increase of octane number, which can not be 103 as you stated before with liquid methanol having a R+M/2 rating of just 99.

Its 103 Octane with 50 water mix water...

130 Octane unmixed.... VP Methanol...

[Haltech]

It seems interesting that the kits run only on MAF and MAP rather than going the extra level and adding a temp sensor input after the intercooler. What about throttle position? In most cases the only time you need the meth injection is running higher levels of boost and/or higher throttle pos and higher intake temps. If the intake charge is cool enough then the engine will have no need of the water-meth injection.
I've been considering water-meth since the day I bought this thing but I'm more or less peeping about to see what successes other people have had.
Therefore I'll probably take measurements of the intake temps vs. rpm and boost pressure and plot the data to see when the most likely time to inject it.

MAF will tell you the exact airflow coming into the engine but it says nothing of pressure ratio or intake charge temp. You can have larger amounts of airflow into the engine when the engine is not under boost at higher rpm than you can at low rpm with boost. For example, with a 100%VE engine 7psi boost at 3000rpm is equivalent to 4500rpm WOT with no boost or probably 6000rpm part throttle. I'm sure if you dial it it then for the most part it will spray around the right times but there will be times when it is spraying unecessarily if the system injects only on a specific MAF voltage.
Honestly I imagine only temp, rpm, and throttle position would be required to properly inject water-meth.

You have to look at your MAF's voltage as the throttle position. 1-2 volts is 1/4 throttle roughly. 2.5-3.5 is half throttle.. Anyhing past 3.5001 volts is consider WOT.

Just because youre spraying based off voltage, whether in boost or not, youre not going to hurt anything. Youre combustion chamber will be cleaner, engine will run cooler, so its win win.

I wouldnt trust a intake temp sensor after the intercooler. Have you considered the temps while sitting at a redlight? Your meth would be spraying at idle! If i hook an autotap to my truck and go driving, my intake temp before the intercooler is a few degrees above ambient. At a redlight,the temps increase almost 40 degrees.

[mrlilguy157]

You have to look at your MAF's voltage as the throttle position. 1-2 volts is 1/4 throttle roughly. 2.5-3.5 is half throttle.. Anyhing past 3.5001 volts is consider WOT.

Just because youre spraying based off voltage, whether in boost or not, youre not going to hurt anything. Youre combustion chamber will be cleaner, engine will run cooler, so its win win.

I wouldnt trust a intake temp sensor after the intercooler. Have you considered the temps while sitting at a redlight? Your meth would be spraying at idle! If i hook an autotap to my truck and go driving, my intake temp before the intercooler is a few degrees above ambient. At a redlight,the temps increase almost 40 degrees.


(yippy) what he said....

go off of throttle position voltage.

i think 4.1v -4.2v is for sure the cap on wide open throttle for most cars. i will set mine at somewhere near 3.75v to spray.

[$inCitySpeed3]

Read if you are thinking of trying water/methanol injection

What is Water/Methanol Injection?

Water Injection or Water Methanol Injection, is a process by which a mixture or water and Methanol are injected into the fuel/air mixture on the way to the combustion chamber. Water/Methanol Injection provides "Chemical Intercooling" inside the cylinder. By injecting water and methanol in a finely atomized spray, the water is able to evaporate under the high temps of a firing cylinder, and when the water evaporates, it takes heat with it. The methanol also has a cooling and octane boosting effect as it burns.

How does water/methanol injection allow your engine to produce more power?

The production of more power by a water/meth injected engine is not a by-product of the water/meth mixture alone. You must tune for it to get the most out of it. The evaporative effects of the water/meth mixture, plus the octane boost, allows you to run more advanced timing, and boost, thus increasing power. Methanol having the octane boosting effect, you can adjust your AFR's with tuning, and be able to run the same AFR as a pump gas tune with less fuel added to the fuel map of your engine managment. When the system is spraying, methanol is making up for the fuel that gets taken away during the tuning process. You end up with about same 12.5:1 or so AFR with less pump gas added, you also increase knock resistance, and due to the octane boosting effect, you can add timing and boost to make more power safely.

What is Methanol?

Methanol is the simplest alcohol compound, comprised of one carbon atom, one oxygen atom and four hydrogen atoms (CH3OH). It is also referred to as wood alcohol, carbinol and methyl alcohol. It is poisonous, flammable and relatively volatile. It has no taste or color, but it does have a slight scent.

Methanol is used as a fuel and an antifreeze, and to make formaldehyde. It is also added to ethanol to make it unpalatable so that it avoids taxes on drinkable alcohol, as ethanol without a denaturant of some sort is consumable by humans. Methanol was first discovered in 1661, though it had been used without isolation by peoples as far back as the Egyptians in their embalming processes. The name comes from methy, meaning wine, and hyle, meaning trees.

Methanol is used as a fuel source by some, though its use is limited by its volatility. The main area in which one sees methanol being used is in many top-end racing engines. The vehicles in the Indy 500, for example, are all run on methanol. This methanol is usually produced using a fossil fuel as the synthesis gas, either natural gas or petroleum.

Many renewable energy advocates see methanol as an ideal fuel source, with distinct advantages over hydrogen. When methanol is made from materials such as wood, it is often called bioalcohol. The theoretical use of methanol as a widespread fuel source has given rise to a theory describing what is known as the methanol economy.

In the methanol economy, the common fuel is methanol, with non-renewable fuels having a minority share or being entirely unused. George Olah, a winner of the Nobel Prize, is a strong advocate of this path. Advocates point out that in contrast to hydrogen, methanol is relatively cheap to produce, can be manufactured with little or no waste, is efficient to store and can be made from sources other than fossil fuels. Also, while conversion to a hydrogen economy would require major changes in infrastructure, methanol could be phased in relatively easily because of its interoperability with fossil fuels. One can mix methanol with gasoline to produce hybrid fuels while making the shift in economy.

Unfortunately, methanol is very toxic and contains a number of hazards. It is less volatile than hydrogen, but also much heavier, which could allow contamination in the case of spills or tank leaks. A wide range of groups are constantly looking for new and innovative uses for methanol, and it seems apparent that it will have a role in the energy economy of the future. Whether that role is as the key player or a supporter to hydrogen or some other fuel source remains to be seen.

Can you run just water injection without methanol?

Yes, but you will not be able to take advantage of the octane boosting properties of methanol, thus you will get cooling from the water, but no increase in octane. Without methanol, you may not make as much power, as it acts as a detonation inhibitor, and you may not be able to run a leaner AFR as you could with it.

What supporting upgrades are required for water/methanol injection?

At minimum you should have some sort of engine management that can be tuned, I.E. able to adjust timing, boost, and fuel curves, to compensate for the octane boost, and cooling effects, and be able to take advantage of them to make power. Otherwise you can run water/meth injection on a stock car with tunable engine management. You do not have to have after-market intakes, exhausts, intercoolers, or strengthened internals. Although with more supporting mods that already increase the volumetric efficiency of the engine, the more power that can be had.

Who makes Water/Methanol injection systems?

There are many manufactures of water/injection systems:

These are some of the more popular and most inclusive kits for the money
www.aquamist.co.uk
http://www.snowperformance.net/
www.coolingmist.com
www.alcohol-injection.com
www.enginerunup.com
www.fjoracing.com/products/waterinjection
www.smcenterprises.com/subaru.htm
Here is a link to Richard L's Sticky with details on companies:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=958501
Who is the best manufacture to go with?

That is up to debate, but when you choose a kit, look at all the components that come with the kit, or if you can buy extra pieces that you may need, or think you need I.E. Level switches, fail safes, extra nozzles, varible controllers.
Also consider what type of reservoir you are going to have to use, or does the kit include one?
Most companies have some sort of reservoir, some make you use the existing windshield wiper tank, or make you supply your own.
Also read other peoples experiences with different kits as far as setup, price, inclusiveness of kit (does it satisfy all your requirements part-wise), power gains, etc.

How do I know how big a nozzle to run?

Here is a water injection calculator to assist in this
Calculator

Another injection calculator
[/url]=http://www.alcohol-injection.com/for...read.php?t=351[/url]

It is at the bottom of the page...

Here is a volume converter also, to cross reference nozzles. Some companies list volumes of their nozzle in metric, some in standard units of measure.
http://www.sciencemadesimple.net/volume.php

Where can I get methanol?
One of the best sources that some probably don't realize is from wal-mart or anywhere that sells basic windshield wiper fluid. Just make sure you don't get the stuff with Glycol in it...this is the same stuff used in engine anti-freeze. It won't work well, or could damage you engine.

Other sources:

http://www.vpracingfuels.com/vp_01_f...55#special ty

This one has a comprihensive list of suppliers all over the USA

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=121500

You can buy on-line from these guys:
LINK
www.pricechemical.com/order/
www.powermist.com/distrib.html
www.worldwideracingfuels.com/catalog_c30755.html

Those are just some.

Are there any water injection forums I can learn more from?

Yes, here are a few:

Aquamist's, probably has the most info and activity
www.waterinjection.info/phpBB2/
www.waterinjectionforum.com
www.waterinjection.info
http://snowperformance.net/forum/
www.alcohol-injection.com/forum

How do I know what mixture to inject?

THe best rule of thumb is a 50/50 mix of methnol and distilled water

Some use more meth, some use less. But windshield wiper fluid is commonly between 35-42% methanol, which will usually work fine. The best mixture is proportionate to your particular state of tune. A little less methanol could possibly cause detonation. Mixing it yourself maybe the best way to know what is right for you.

Here is a freeze table for methanol also:

http://www.ashchem.com/adc/chemicals...=3&is_header=N

Just be careful with methanol as it is corrosive, toxic, and a carcinogen. Please be careful if you decide to mix your own brew.

Here is a link to a methanol hydrogemeter:

http://www.sjdiscounttools.com/ezrs104.html

Here is a great how to page:

http://www.dawesdevices.com/howto.html

Can you build your own kit, and how?

You need some basics to build your own system.

You need a pump with adequate pressure, most people use some type of diaphram pump, from ShurFlo for example.

You need nozzles

You need tubing

You need a trigger to turn on the system at the right time, some type of pressure switch...Some engine management such as TurboXS UTEC has a spare solenoid that can be setup to run your water injection system.

Many of the things needed for setting up a system can be found at these suppliers

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg...UseBVCookie=no
http://www.fastenal.com/web/products...l.ex?sku=68424
www.mcmaster.com/

And here is a great how to page on building your own...
http://www.projectwrx.com/modules.ph...howpage&pid=34

Can water/meth injection cause damage to my engine?

As with any aftermarket part, yes it can.

If you are running water/meth injection, you are risking detonation and catostrophic engine failure shoud you system fail or not run at optimum efficiency. This is due to the fact that when tuned you will be running advanced timing, boost and leaner fuel trims that would normally not be possible without water/meth injection. Loss of the system while under heavy load may not be able to be compensated for in time, and could cause detonation at best case, and engine failure at worst case. Be careful, and make sure you use a failsafe, or a tune that retards timing at the onset of knock, and some sort of level indicatior for the reservior, to ensure you know when the tank is getting empty. Nozzle clog indicators are not a bad idea either. They are especially important if using tap water, or not using a filter in the system, to catch impuritiies. This is why distilled water is best for this application.

Can I run without a external intercooler?

Yes, but your tune has to be setup to compesate for it. Advantages to running without a TMIC or FMIC are better spool of turbo and response, due to less volume to fill up. But again, you must make sure your system is working properly all the time, some have experimented with not using an external intercooler with success.

What gains can be made from water/meth injection?

This all depends on the current setup of your car, type of car, and your tuners ablilty. All your supporting mods such as exhaust, intakes, turbos gains are best realized with some sort of aftermarket tuning. The same it true with water/meth injection. But generally gains of 20-30 Hp and 20-30 ft/lbs of tq are common, making this one of the best bang for the buck power upgrades for your car. Your gains of course depend on supporting mods you already have in place, that will let you take advantage of the tuning to a higher degree.nice write up...or cut copy paste...lol

[Kosh]

What did you do about exhaust? Wouldn't you need a 3.5" or larger diameter to overcome all that backpressure?

[knowledge007]

equipemnt? all you need is a jack, jackstand and some basic tools. Unless you dont have them. Doing a turboback is not like installing cams, its straight forward but some of the bolts are a pita to get too.

I wish it was that easy. Doing this would take 4 hours or more... CAI is way easier to install the a downpipe.

[SpdFreak]

GTI on meth/water injection.

Link (http://www.golfmkv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33522)

[SpdFreak]

Coolingmist.com has an entry level pump setup for $199.
Progressive setups cost around $400. A tank usually adds ~$100.

[laloosh]

i just though of something, this car went 13.2 @ 111 with all this stuff done to it, how the hell am i trapping the same thing as him? I HIGHLY doubt i have a 350whp ms3

[IDRVSLO]

Hey laloosh I know you say dynos are not important but track times are. I think this is a good case of the opposite. I would love to see what your car dynos now. Based on numbers alone here. You are right if you are trapping the same times but they are putting down 400 I would be very interested in seeing what yours is throwing down for numbers. Any plans to get yours dynoed? I am going to come spring time for sure.

[driver311]

i just though of something, this car went 13.2 @ 111 with all this stuff done to it, how the hell am i trapping the same thing as him? I HIGHLY doubt i have a 350whp ms3

Your probably really close. I trapped 108 on 311whp. You do the math. 3mph more equates to 30whp more.

[laloosh]

btw i just tuned my shit. The people taking fuel away ARE FUCKEN CRAZY. im adding as much as 12 percent down low. I will post a/f ratios and screen shots of my tune. 3rd gear roll, 40mph, the fucker breaks loose. Easy tune in a bout 8 pulls all 4th gear, all slightly up a hill. A/f ratio was set to hove right around 11.5, this car is cake to tune. No wierd spike like cpe is reporting with their speed 6.(cabpatch) Pg pump ftw i guess

[SpdFreak]

btw i just tuned my shit. The people taking fuel away ARE FUCKEN CRAZY. im adding as much as 12 percent down low. I will post a/f ratios and screen shots of my tune. 3rd gear roll, 40mph, the fucker breaks loose. Easy tune in a bout 8 pulls all 4th gear, all slightly up a hill. A/f ratio was set to hove right around 11.5, this car is cake to tune. No wierd spike like cpe is reporting with their speed 6.(cabpatch) Pg pump ftw i guess

So you have a wideband. Which one did you end up with?

[laloosh]

dash hawk using the stock wideband. I will post my data in 20 min. I have data of what the ecu request and what the car actuall sees with my tune. I run vista and i cant figure out how to graph this crap, i will just manual do it in excel.

[SpdFreak]

dash hawk using the stock wideband. I will post my data in 20 min. I have data of what the ecu request and what the car actuall sees with my tune. I run vista and i cant figure out how to graph this crap, i will just manual do it in excel.

Where are you posting it? Please send me a PM with the link.

[Jays07MS3]

dash hawk using the stock wideband. I will post my data in 20 min. I have data of what the ecu request and what the car actuall sees with my tune. I run vista and i cant figure out how to graph this crap, i will just manual do it in excel.

Check the MSD website. There is a link there about how to use the DH software with Vista. Can't wait to see the graphs!

[laloosh]

it works with vista, like i was able to uploaded the newest software but when i go to upload the logs, it says there are no logs found, but when i plug it into the car, the logs are there. Fucken gay.


neway here are the results

Ok so my dashhawk came in and i started tuning with the wideband.
First off, this was done in about 5 pull, all 4th gear, Its crude, spare me.
2nd off, people running 18 psi on the stock pump SHOULD REALLY MONITOR THEIR A/F ratios as mine were lean down low and not really rich up top, keep in mind i have an upgraded fuel pump

Mods:
cpe intake
cpe ems at 18.1 psi
pg catted tbe
pg fuel pump

here is what my tuned a/f ratio looks like. keep in mind these are REAL a/f ratio done on the highway in 4th gear. My lap top died but its easy to see that the lil bump down low can be tuned out by adding my fuel.
http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j299/laloosh04/afratio.jpg
i was aiming for 11.5-11.8
The pg pump acts great

Here is the tune, i dont feel like uploading it.
Boost: 18psi
Map Clip: 13psi (cpe said clamping the map doesnt effect timing or fuel)
from 2100 to 2800 rpm +12
3100 to 3300 +5
3600 +4
3800 to 4300 all 0
4500 -2
4800 to 5500 -3
5700 to 6200 -2
6500-7000 -3

I know this is crude, but like i said for some reason my having problems uploading the files from the hawk via vista. I can read them fine through the hawk though. I understand this is ghetto as hell to some, but its better then nothing.

[Silo]

Since you have the DH, did you throw a look at the EGT (cat temp) too?

[laloosh]

No, like i said i just got it and was kinda figuring it out. I will do it saturday

[dread]

how accurate is the dh with a/f ratios

[chriscecc914]

what does clamping the map do?

[Haltech]

btw i just tuned my shit. The people taking fuel away ARE FUCKEN CRAZY. im adding as much as 12 percent down low. I will post a/f ratios and screen shots of my tune. 3rd gear roll, 40mph, the fucker breaks loose. Easy tune in a bout 8 pulls all 4th gear, all slightly up a hill. A/f ratio was set to hove right around 11.5, this car is cake to tune. No wierd spike like cpe is reporting with their speed 6.(cabpatch) Pg pump ftw i guess

A little trick i learned tuning.. If you want your car to shoot out of the hole like an animal, adding more fuel down low acts like a catapult.. just remember to start taking it out gradually around 2700 rpm so it doesnt load up on you. Should improve those 60 foot times :)

[Haltech]

what does clamping the map do?

People using this are ones with MBC or EBCs needing to trick the cpu from cutting boost when hitting 18 psi. You solder this box into the 3 wires on the factory map sensor and it fools with ECU into thinking the boost is at normal levels.

[All4BeSpinnin]

Clamping the MAP fools the ECU into how much boost you are making. Back when I had my GTI 1.8T it was drive by wire. The ecu would start closing the throttle plate in the upper revs. The clamp fooled the ECU and would keep the TP open until redline.

[chriscecc914]

so whats the difference if you set the cpu to think its 13psi or 15.5 psi?

[autoxes]

the amount of fuel that it allows the fuel system to put into the engine to take advantage of the extra 2.5 psi of boost.

[All4BeSpinnin]

That would need to be tested. From my 1.8T days, the more aggressive the clamp the more sensitive the car was to drive at part throttle. It got to a point to where it was undrivable under 5K rpm. The turbo was a K03 and it was really hard to control boost since it was so small. It would make 20+ psi under 3K rpm.

[dkswim]

my stupidity

[laloosh]

cpe said the map has no affect on timing or fuel, based on that info, you could clamp it where you want.......i still kinda well not kinda, but find this wierd and not safe

[laloosh]

A little trick i learned tuning.. If you want your car to shoot out of the hole like an animal, adding more fuel down low acts like a catapult.. just remember to start taking it out gradually around 2700 rpm so it doesnt load up on you. Should improve those 60 foot times :)

lol as well as pulling some more timing to spool up quicker, however traction is not my friend.

40 roll in 3rd the car begins to break loose like a second after it spools(glare)

[boost_me]

wowzers!!

meth here i come!!

[mrlilguy157]

chris get some metthhhhhhhh (drunk)

[laloosh]

nah, ic is next.

[mrlilguy157]

nah, ic is next.

i forgot you didn't have an upgrade yet.

TMIC? TXS FMIC? or are you sold on the idea of the Corksport?

[Silo]

OT: Is the TXS FMIC compatible with a INJEN CAI?

[chriscecc914]

so where do i set this "map clamping"? Can i do it with the cp-e ems?

[funkyman]

S0 the CP-E or COBB P&P is when?February or March?

[Sierra117]

CP-e is March or April, Cobb around the same time as Duke Nukem Forever and the Tesla Roadster.