thinking XEDE not worth it

[justhavnfun]

i was reading a post from a moderator stating he was able get a mazdaspeed6 to run high 12's. he first installed a cpe intake and catback exhaust and ran a 13.9 1/4 mile. ok the car stock runs 14.1! so far he has $1000.00 into the car and only shaved 2/tenths of a second off his stock time?! thats not even noticeable.
then he added the xede piggyback system, another $1000.00. but he improved his time by a full second from stock. so now he has $2000.00 in this car.
last he adds a top mount intercooler and drops his time to 12.9. another $550.00. so total he spent $2550.00+ and improved his time from stock by 1 second and 2/tenths of a second.
now don't get me wrong. 12.9 is quick and definatly a noticable improvement but i'm not sure if its worth the money you shell out for it. also keep in mind, this was a mazdaspeed6. a all wheel drive car. the ms3 can't hook up like the ms6. i would be suprised if a ms3 with this setup could run a low 13 comparing to the ms6's results. if thats the case the money spent looks worse! over $2550.00 and MAYBE a full second improvement on the ms3?!
oh and did i mention the warranty? GONE! if i'm going to give up my warranty its going to be for more than a 1 second improvement!
ford and chevy make piggyback systems for their trucks and for $600.00 you're producing 100+ hp and silly amounts of torque. i know! thats not fair. mass production vehicle vs. limited production vehicle. but i think you get my point.
i'm not trying to talk anyone out of this system either. this is just MY opinion and what I'M going to do.
again, i'm not slamming this guy and what he's doing. its a step in the right direction but for now i think i'll wait till something better comes around, i am as anxious as everyone out there to see the full potential of this midget wagon. :)

[GoFast]

i have thought a lot about this as well. I agree with you as well. The big thing is the warranty issue to be honest as well as the cost. I don't think the grand is worth it. A bit more power would be nice, hell, who doesn't want more power, but i think it comes at too great of a cost to justify it.

[Nutari]

i was reading a post from a moderator stating he was able get a mazdaspeed6 to run high 12's. he first installed a cpe intake and catback exhaust and ran a 13.9 1/4 mile. ok the car stock runs 14.1! so far he has $1000.00 into the car and only shaved 2/tenths of a second off his stock time?! thats not even noticeable.
then he added the xede piggyback system, another $1000.00. but he improved his time by a full second from stock. so now he has $2000.00 in this car.
last he adds a top mount intercooler and drops his time to 12.9. another $550.00. so total he spent $2550.00+ and improved his time from stock by 1 second and 2/tenths of a second.
now don't get me wrong. 12.9 is quick and definatly a noticable improvement but i'm not sure if its worth the money you shell out for it. also keep in mind, this was a mazdaspeed6. a all wheel drive car. the ms3 can't hook up like the ms6. i would be suprised if a ms3 with this setup could run a low 13 comparing to the ms6's results. if thats the case the money spent looks worse! over $2550.00 and MAYBE a full second improvement on the ms3?!
oh and did i mention the warranty? GONE! if i'm going to give up my warranty its going to be for more than a 1 second improvement!
ford and chevy make piggyback systems for their trucks and for $600.00 you're producing 100+ hp and silly amounts of torque. i know! thats not fair. mass production vehicle vs. limited production vehicle. but i think you get my point.
i'm not trying to talk anyone out of this system either. this is just MY opinion and what I'M going to do.
again, i'm not slamming this guy and what he's doing. its a step in the right direction but for now i think i'll wait till something better comes around, i am as anxious as everyone out there to see the full potential of this midget wagon. :)

$1k for 50hp~ and 50~tq to the wheels.

Once you get up into the mid 13's, every 10th of a second more is exponentially harder to take off. just the fact that with the XEDE, he took off almost an entire second his 1/4 time is amazing.

[palerider]

$1k for 50hp~ and 50~tq to the wheels.

Once you get up into the mid 13's, every 10th of a second more is exponentially harder to take off. just the fact that with the XEDE, he took off almost an entire second his 1/4 time is amazing.


No kidding. This thread confuses me.

$1000 for CAI and CBE.... nets a couple tenths.
$550 for TMIC..... nets a tenth or two.
and
$1000 for Xede gives you a full second...!?!?

And the argument by the threadstarter is that the Xede is the worst bang for the buck?!?!

Truly in my opinion if I was going to spend only $1000, it would be on Xede and Xede alone. I dont see how you could see it any other way. It gives the greatest gain and it should be the first mod only because it would INCREASE all other following mods if you used it to tune.

What am I missing here?

BTW.... I have held off personally on all other mods, other than MS CAI, waiting on Xede PNP. Once I get the EMS.... the fun will begin.

[SwampAss]

I've all but written off the reflash/PnP stand alone. It's been 9 months and still nothing. Their are several threads from Jan and Feb stating they were *almost ready*.
I do not want to cut into a factory wiring harness (easy or not) to install a product.

I could have carved a factory mazda ECM harness plug out of wood at this point.

[chriscecc914]

if your worried about the warranty then why even think about modding your car? Im at about the $7000 mark on my speed6. when it runs it should be in the 11's 1/4 mile wise. Some cars just costs more then others to make fast. Plus I have the GT so its heavier.

[chriscecc914]

I've all but written off the reflash/PnP stand alone. It's been 9 months and still nothing. Their are several threads from Jan and Feb stating they were *almost ready*.
I do not want to cut into a factory wiring harness (easy or not) to install a product.

I could have carved a factory mazda ECM harness plug out of wood at this point.

(rofl)

[SharkDiver]

I've all but written off the reflash/PnP stand alone. It's been 9 months and still nothing. Their are several threads from Jan and Feb stating they were *almost ready*.
I do not want to cut into a factory wiring harness (easy or not) to install a product.

I could have carved a factory mazda ECM harness plug out of wood at this point.

You got that right.I dont think they are working on the product nearly as hard as they would like us all to baleave.Im guessing over there at cobb they have 1 guy that works on the ap for the ms3 1 day a month and 20 guys working everyday to get us more springs,cross bars and a bunch of other crap that we can already get.I know you guys are talking about XEDE but I wanted to vent a bit.

[SharkDiver]

if your worried about the warranty then why even think about modding your car? Im at about the $7000 mark on my speed6. when it runs it should be in the 11's 1/4 mile wise. Some cars just costs more then others to make fast. Plus I have the GT so its heavier.

You can mod your car without voiding the warranty.

[SwampAss]

I won't pretend to know how involved the manufacturing and testing of the product is. I am sure it's very tough. My complaint stems from the fact it's been held out like the proverbial carrot for so long.

(bird)

[Nate731]

i was reading a post from a moderator stating he was able get a mazdaspeed6 to run high 12's. he first installed a cpe intake and catback exhaust and ran a 13.9 1/4 mile. ok the car stock runs 14.1! so far he has $1000.00 into the car and only shaved 2/tenths of a second off his stock time?! thats not even noticeable.
then he added the xede piggyback system, another $1000.00. but he improved his time by a full second from stock. so now he has $2000.00 in this car.
last he adds a top mount intercooler and drops his time to 12.9. another $550.00. so total he spent $2550.00+ and improved his time from stock by 1 second and 2/tenths of a second.
now don't get me wrong. 12.9 is quick and definatly a noticable improvement but i'm not sure if its worth the money you shell out for it. also keep in mind, this was a mazdaspeed6. a all wheel drive car. the ms3 can't hook up like the ms6. i would be suprised if a ms3 with this setup could run a low 13 comparing to the ms6's results. if thats the case the money spent looks worse! over $2550.00 and MAYBE a full second improvement on the ms3?!
oh and did i mention the warranty? GONE! if i'm going to give up my warranty its going to be for more than a 1 second improvement!
ford and chevy make piggyback systems for their trucks and for $600.00 you're producing 100+ hp and silly amounts of torque. i know! thats not fair. mass production vehicle vs. limited production vehicle. but i think you get my point.
i'm not trying to talk anyone out of this system either. this is just MY opinion and what I'M going to do.
again, i'm not slamming this guy and what he's doing. its a step in the right direction but for now i think i'll wait till something better comes around, i am as anxious as everyone out there to see the full potential of this midget wagon. :)

Given the same FWD car, same launch and same weather, what's the average difference in power between a 16 second car and a 15 second car?
Maybe 30-50hp, right?

Given the same FWD car, same launch and same weather, what's the average difference in power between a 15 second car and a 14 second car?
Maybe 50-100hp, right?

As Nutari said, the faster your times are, the power needed to continually decrease those times ALSO increases exponentially.


As they said in Honda circles when I still had mine, "Want the best power mod available? Buy a v8 car..." Ultimately, "there is no replacement for displacement," although forced induction goes a LONG way to bring power levels up to the true potential. Also, Keep in mind the $600 chips you are seeing for the trucks are for DIESEL engines. Those are a whiole different ball game compared to Gas. At stock, they're also rediculously under-tuned from their true potential due to emmisions requirements. Have you ever seen one of those chipped trucks get on it? It's alike a frickin James Bond smoke screen.

The Mazda MS's are already VERY well tuned from the factory. Right out of the factory door, the 2.3T STARTS just shy of 2hp/ci (WITH a warranty (drive)). That would have been unheard of for a stock vehicle under $100k 5 years ago. Think about a Corvette Z06 @ just shy of 2hp/ci. That's close to 800hp, that whould be pretty crazy. Now, we're ALL speed junkies and horsepower is like crack to us, so we always want more. Just keep in mind that when you start near the top of your potential, you have to INCREASE the potential before it gets easy to build up to it.

[speed3shon]

also, that 14.1 stock isnt exactly a cakewalk... so unless he got that in his car with him driving, then dont use that as a baseline...

[justhavnfun]

$1k for 50hp~ and 50~tq to the wheels.

Once you get up into the mid 13's, every 10th of a second more is exponentially harder to take off. just the fact that with the XEDE, he took off almost an entire second his 1/4 time is amazing.

yeh but he didn't achieve that with the XEDE system alone. he had to spend
$1550.00 of ADDITIONAL parts to do that. also, you're not going to produce these numbers in a ms3. look, this car has a induction sytem on it thats capable of so much more. the question is can someone hack through MAZDA'S safeguards. i hope so!

[justhavnfun]

$1000 for Xede gives you a full second...!?!?

And the argument by the threadstarter is that the Xede is the worst bang for the buck?!?!

Truly in my opinion if I was going to spend only $1000, it would be on Xede and Xede alone. I dont see how you could see it any other way. It gives the greatest gain and it should be the first mod only because it would INCREASE all other following mods if you used it to tune.

again, the XEDE did not do this alone! he didn't install the XEDE on a stock car and shave a second off his 1/4 mile. if you think you're going to get these results on a ms3, you're going to be dissapointed.

[justhavnfun]

Given the same FWD car, same launch and same weather, what's the average difference in power between a 16 second car and a 15 second car?
Maybe 30-50hp, right?

Given the same FWD car, same launch and same weather, what's the average difference in power between a 15 second car and a 14 second car?
Maybe 50-100hp, right?

As Nutari said, the faster your times are, the power needed to continually decrease those times ALSO increases exponentially.

i agree and understand the faster the time the more hp is needed. i have been toying with superchargers since the 90's. all i'm saying is the amount of money you have to spend to propell this car (ms3) to mid 13's isn't worth it for me. and yes domestic trucks are under tuned but has nothing to do with them being diesiles. its their induction system the programs are altering. fuel pressure, wastegates,timing, line pressure. if they made a gas turbo truck i guarantee you there would be a silly tune for it within a few months producing crazy amounts of torque and hp. actualy they do chevy's 8.1 with a whipple supercharger kit. its silly!

[meha11]

again, the XEDE did not do this alone! he didn't install the XEDE on a stock car and shave a second off his 1/4 mile. if you think you're going to get these results on a ms3, you're going to be dissapointed.

manufactures site

http://www.bellengineering.net/Pages/products_MazdaSpeed3_parts.html

http://www.bellengineering.net/Pages/dyno_sheets.html

http://www.bellengineering.net/Images/Dyno/BEGi_MS3_stockandXede.jpg

Personally i have heard no bad reports of this on a MS3 and have no reason not to believe the claims, would like for anyone with one to comment openly rather than via PM, if it really is this good and i hope it is, people should spread the word.

EDIT- manufactures site

http://www.chiptorque.com.au/

link to review

http://autospeed.drive.com.au/cms/A_107793/article.html

[SharkDiver]

Given the same FWD car, same launch and same weather, what's the average difference in power between a 16 second car and a 15 second car?
Maybe 30-50hp, right?

Given the same FWD car, same launch and same weather, what's the average difference in power between a 15 second car and a 14 second car?
Maybe 50-100hp, right?

As Nutari said, the faster your times are, the power needed to continually decrease those times ALSO increases exponentially.


As they said in Honda circles when I still had mine, "Want the best power mod available? Buy a v8 car..." Ultimately, "there is no replacement for displacement," although forced induction goes a LONG way to bring power levels up to the true potential. Also, Keep in mind the $600 chips you are seeing for the trucks are for DIESEL engines. Those are a whiole different ball game compared to Gas. At stock, they're also rediculously under-tuned from their true potential due to emmisions requirements. Have you ever seen one of those chipped trucks get on it? It's alike a frickin James Bond smoke screen.

The Mazda MS's are already VERY well tuned from the factory. Right out of the factory door, the 2.3T STARTS just shy of 2hp/ci (WITH a warranty (drive)). That would have been unheard of for a stock vehicle under $100k 5 years ago. Think about a Corvette Z06 @ just shy of 2hp/ci. That's close to 800hp, that whould be pretty crazy. Now, we're ALL speed junkies and horsepower is like crack to us, so we always want more. Just keep in mind that when you start near the top of your potential, you have to INCREASE the potential before it gets easy to build up to it.

Acually our car is NOT tuned very well from the factory.There is no power after 5.5 rpm and we redline at 6.5.It runs super rich and our boost is limited in 1st and 2nd gear.I think most of us have always wanted more Hp but the auto makers didnt want to give us any Hp in most of the 80s and 90s for some reason,Im glad they woke up.

[Jays07MS3]

so total he spent $2550.00+ and improved his time from stock by 1 second and 2/tenths of a second.


That is not a lot of money at ALL to go from 14.1s to 12.9s. And all this on the stock turbo?!?!? That is small $$ for the increase he got. I know I spent more $$ on my eclipse than that and wasn't anywhere near his numbers.

For 12.9 @ 106mph, curb weight + driver ~ 3764lb his whp must be around 350hp (from hp calculators). I think I've seen stock ms6s make around 230hp. So 120hp for $2550 is not too bad IMO.

[Haltech]

Those are great gains for little money. I dont think some of you realize how expensive it is to shave 1 second off your ET. As noted, these cars are pigrich from the factory. There is a lot of power to be gained with a aftermarket system on there. If you could get some real sticky front tires on the MS3.. get full boost back from 1 & 2, custom tune of the entire car, add at least 1 cat delete or DP with a CAI, i wouldnt doubt that a mid 12 would be obtainable from these cars. I see people add power to cars/trucks all the time at the track however, they never bother to learn how to drive their vehicle with the mods. Instead, they get pissed off about their results.

We need to solve the traction problem first, than you will begin seeing some sick ETs.

Whether you choose an XEDE system or CPEs Standback, i think you will be very happy with the results.

[Maxx Mazda]

Look at it this way. I have a low 13 second car, and I had to spend $50K canadian to get it there. (Inc. price of car.) The MS6 with mods is a bargain.

[justhavnfun]

Look at it this way. I have a low 13 second car, and I had to spend $50K canadian to get it there. (Inc. price of car.) The MS6 with mods is a bargain.

ok you hooked me. what was the price of the car?! 50k you could have bought a 08' evo. a vette, the options are endless. maybe you just enjoy working on cars all the time. well what ever, you didn't borrow the money from me as long as you're happy with what you have. me personally i would have spent the money different but thats just me. :)

[justhavnfun]

That is small $$ for the increase he got. I know I spent more $$ on my eclipse than that and wasn't anywhere near his numbers.

well there you go. a potential customer! i know there are people out there that will buy this system no matter what the price.even if it was $2000.00. to prove my point, and as you said you've paid more for less return. i've seen guys dump thousands of dollars into cars. they weren't much faster than what they started with. but they had fun turning wrenches on it. no harm in that.

[Maxx Mazda]

ok you hooked me. what was the price of the car?! 50k you could have bought a 08' evo. a vette, the options are endless. maybe you just enjoy working on cars all the time. well what ever, you didn't borrow the money from me as long as you're happy with what you have. me personally i would have spent the money different but thats just me. :)

Oh ya man totally, but $10K alone for 2 built motors, built tranny, ICE, pretty much every part made for the Protege I have... Believe me, at the time it doesn't seem to add up until the end when ya, I could have bought an Evo or STi, even a TL type S...

[MS3ICA]

dude your off on the seconds!!! a good luxery car does 6 1/2 to 60 af half a seconf is a huge deal in the qurtewr or to 60!!! it takes 50 to a 100 hp to makes that diff, and some performance cars cost 3 times as much to get that performance!!!!!! so you are not thinkiing clearly!!!!!

[funkyman]

The Exede true worth is 699 i believe.Its not even pnp,but a basic stand alone like system that slightly alters boost levels and air to fuel ratios,because its the only way to gain power and 700usd for a stand alone and/or ain`t cheap even retail.This is a Mazda not an E46.

[Haltech]

The Exede true worth is 699 i believe.Its not even pnp,but a basic stand alone like system that slightly alters boost levels and air to fuel ratios,because its the only way to gain power and 700usd for a stand alone and/or ain`t cheap even retail.This is a Mazda not an E46.

E46 may be cheaper, like under $500, but E92's are up there... 335i anyone?

http://www.turnermotorsport.com/html/subcategory_detail.asp?modelcode=E92&subcat_id=20

Sad thing, this is a reflash, you dont have control of any parameter changes and, its only 40HP...

Stand alone for the Mazda is a good value guys.

[CaSHMeRe]

not at $1000 bones.

the cobb ap will be priced around $699 + $199 for tuning software
and
the CPE Standback will $699

both are PNP's. Both control boost and the Throttle plate.

And the XEDE doesn't !!!

[gr3y]

not at $1000 bones.

the cobb ap will be priced around $699 + $199 for tuning software
and
the CPE Standback will $699

both are PNP's. Both control boost and the Throttle plate.

And the XEDE doesn't !!!

"will be"

i'm not going one way or another.. and until the harness is out it's pretty much just going to be people slinging mud.

[Nate731]

i agree and understand the faster the time the more hp is needed. i have been toying with superchargers since the 90's. all i'm saying is the amount of money you have to spend to propell this car (ms3) to mid 13's isn't worth it for me. and yes domestic trucks are under tuned but has nothing to do with them being diesiles. its their induction system the programs are altering. fuel pressure, wastegates,timing, line pressure. if they made a gas turbo truck i guarantee you there would be a silly tune for it within a few months producing crazy amounts of torque and hp. actualy they do chevy's 8.1 with a whipple supercharger kit. its silly!

I get understand where you're coming from, but I think you're missing the big picture. It's ALL about potential. At 263hp the MS3 is near the top of it's realistic potential for 2.3L. It's those kits for the trucks that are needed to get closer to the their max potential. A v8 (Gas or Diesel) just by default will have a GREAT deal more more torque off-idle and therefore doesn't NEED any additional power adders to get it moving down the road at a decent clip. Engines are designed for specific needs, NOT always for max potential. Why isn't there a Turbo-powered Gas v8 in any trucks? No need for it. Gasoline burns so much faster and produces a bigger bang than diesel, so it is much more efficient. Diesel, on the other hand, burns slower and to artificially speed that up, the compression ratios in diesel engines are typically twice that of most gas engines (20:1 or greater). Why are there turbo-powered Diesel trucks? The turbo's make diesel engines MUCH more efficient by increasing hp levels into a much more useful range. Older non turbo engines were like Gas v8's in the late 70's/early 80's: the torque was there but VERY little hp. They have power off the line but run out of breath WAAAAY early. In the diesel world the addition of a turbo makes a world of difference in both drivability and fuel economy.

[Nate731]

Acually our car is NOT tuned very well from the factory.There is no power after 5.5 rpm and we redline at 6.5.It runs super rich and our boost is limited in 1st and 2nd gear.I think most of us have always wanted more Hp but the auto makers didnt want to give us any Hp in most of the 80s and 90s for some reason,Im glad they woke up.

Point taken, I probably should not have said "tuned well". That should have been something to the effect of "tuned higher". Mazda REALLY needs to take lessons from Audi for a nice factory turbo tune.

[Nutari]

not at $1000 bones.

the cobb ap will be priced around $699 + $199 for tuning software
and
the CPE Standback will $699

both are PNP's. Both control boost and the Throttle plate.

And the XEDE doesn't !!!

Im sorry. The CPE standback is not PNP and the cobb AP still doesnt exist.

XEDE will be PNP soon.

[ragindark]

so total he spent $2550.00+ and improved his time from stock by 1 second and 2/tenths of a second.

By comparison, my old car was a 1998 Honda Accord V6 automatic that had a stock 0-60 time of 7.8 and a 1/4 mile time of 16.1.

I added an AEM CAI for about $300, a Venom 400 computer for about $300, and a Thermal R & D exhaust for about $600 and my 0-60 dropped to 6.8 and my 1/4 mile time dropped to 15.1 @ 96 mph. So I dropped one second for about $1200.

The difference is that I spent 25K for my old Accord plus $1200 in upgrades and about 25k for my Mazdaspeed 3 with the Mazda CAI installed but my Mazda would blow my old Accord off the road in performance.

[desperado-c]

....

The Mazda MS's are already VERY well tuned from the factory. Right out of the factory door, the 2.3T STARTS just shy of 2hp/ci (WITH a warranty (drive)). That would have been unheard of for a stock vehicle under $100k 5 years ago. Think about a Corvette Z06 @ just shy of 2hp/ci. That's close to 800hp, that whould be pretty crazy. Now, we're ALL speed junkies and horsepower is like crack to us, so we always want more. Just keep in mind that when you start near the top of your potential, you have to INCREASE the potential before it gets easy to build up to it.

Thanks for adding some context added around the issue. The MS3 sets the new stock baseline pretty high, as the Z06 comparison so nicely shows. The MS3 breaks new ground in affordable, liveable hp and has gotten people's expectations way out of line compared to what is reasonable. If we want to continue to be functioning hp addicts and not be ruined by our addiction, we might have to lower our expectations a little.

[knowledge007]

I do agree that 1k for a tuning solution is way out of line. I personally need a tuning solution but also don't want to cut into factory wiring. But in the long run if I do throw another CEL then I will be leaning towards the CP-E standback.

[SwampAss]

$1000 is a little steep but as mentioned in the TWM short shifter thread, the cost of development is probably higher due to the limited number of MS3s out there. The cost can not be spread out as far over a greater number of cars.

On a side note, my GIAC remap was $799 with 2 maps. There's a shit load of 1.8T VWs out there.

$1000 is a touch steep, but in the grand scheme of things not so bad. Esp when it allows you to tune it. That's not something you can do with mapping I had for my GTI.

[StephanieT]

The Xede has a few safety features and a few that can be integrated. That said once you have a properly tuned car, those safety features should not be needed. The Xede does not loose it's maps so a backup fuel or timing map is not needed. If something is grossly out of range with the tuning, the stock ECU can still go into limp mode.

A "safety feature" for fueling is the wideband integration. While not completely finished, it is almost done. Basically, if the car stays in the "happy zone" of a nested map, then no modifications are made. If the wideband registers a lean spot in a rpm range, it will add fuel. The fuel addition is instant and once the wideband AFR has returned to normal the Xede stops adding fuel. The wideband would have to be a permanent install.

The Xede has a Boost solenoid output. It can control an electronic boost solenoid.

The Xede also has a Knock Sensor input. Thru a nested map, if knock is detected, it can retard additional timing. The MSM Xedes used to come with a knock buffer wired in the harness, and this is something we will be adding back in as well. It is not needed, but most people feel safer with it there.

The Xede also has two additional Analog Inputs and Outputs. With any input variable, along with an RPM variable, maps can be created to make adjustments for whatever you choose. For example, boost can be altered via a lean or rich condition, or any sensor temperatures. It is not always recommend, but it can be done.

It also has inputs for a shift light, an external LED, TPS control, and a Dual Map switch. Switching between maps can be done 'on the fly'.

The Xede is also OBD II compatible. Once the car is started and Xede has been activated, it is in complete control of timing, fuel, boost, and O2 sensor offsets. Since the stock ECU is still retained, cold start, OBD II, emissions, and low speed drive ability are just as Mazda intended.
Stephanie

[funkyman]

Well you donuts:-) What about this 2.0 liter engine DI Turbo from Chevy do they need lessons.
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/GeneralFuture/articleId=117546


I personally think ESS could tune the stock ECU without any piggy`s.They are masters at cracking ECU codes etc.Sweedish engineering.

[funkyman]

$1000 is a little steep but as mentioned in the TWM short shifter thread, the cost of development is probably higher due to the limited number of MS3s out there. The cost can not be spread out as far over a greater number of cars.

On a side note, my GIAC remap was $799 with 2 maps. There's a shit load of 1.8T VWs out there.

$1000 is a touch steep, but in the grand scheme of things not so bad. Esp when it allows you to tune it. That's not something you can do with mapping I had for my GTI.

Steep is putting it lightly its a rip off,good luck mate.I could get a custom tune for that probably from AA Miami FL.

[SwampAss]

The Xede has a few safety features and a few that can be integrated. That said once you have a properly tuned car, those safety features should not be needed. The Xede does not loose it's maps so a backup fuel or timing map is not needed. If something is grossly out of range with the tuning, the stock ECU can still go into limp mode.

A "safety feature" for fueling is the wideband integration. While not completely finished, it is almost done. Basically, if the car stays in the "happy zone" of a nested map, then no modifications are made. If the wideband registers a lean spot in a rpm range, it will add fuel. The fuel addition is instant and once the wideband AFR has returned to normal the Xede stops adding fuel. The wideband would have to be a permanent install.

The Xede has a Boost solenoid output. It can control an electronic boost solenoid.

The Xede also has a Knock Sensor input. Thru a nested map, if knock is detected, it can retard additional timing. The MSM Xedes used to come with a knock buffer wired in the harness, and this is something we will be adding back in as well. It is not needed, but most people feel safer with it there.

The Xede also has two additional Analog Inputs and Outputs. With any input variable, along with an RPM variable, maps can be created to make adjustments for whatever you choose. For example, boost can be altered via a lean or rich condition, or any sensor temperatures. It is not always recommend, but it can be done.

It also has inputs for a shift light, an external LED, TPS control, and a Dual Map switch. Switching between maps can be done 'on the fly'.

The Xede is also OBD II compatible. Once the car is started and Xede has been activated, it is in complete control of timing, fuel, boost, and O2 sensor offsets. Since the stock ECU is still retained, cold start, OBD II, emissions, and low speed drive ability are just as Mazda intended.
Stephanie

All of which are awesome features. Features few will sample until it's PnP.

[knowledge007]

The Xede has a few safety features and a few that can be integrated. That said once you have a properly tuned car, those safety features should not be needed. The Xede does not loose it's maps so a backup fuel or timing map is not needed. If something is grossly out of range with the tuning, the stock ECU can still go into limp mode.

A "safety feature" for fueling is the wideband integration. While not completely finished, it is almost done. Basically, if the car stays in the "happy zone" of a nested map, then no modifications are made. If the wideband registers a lean spot in a rpm range, it will add fuel. The fuel addition is instant and once the wideband AFR has returned to normal the Xede stops adding fuel. The wideband would have to be a permanent install.

The Xede has a Boost solenoid output. It can control an electronic boost solenoid.

The Xede also has a Knock Sensor input. Thru a nested map, if knock is detected, it can retard additional timing. The MSM Xedes used to come with a knock buffer wired in the harness, and this is something we will be adding back in as well. It is not needed, but most people feel safer with it there.

The Xede also has two additional Analog Inputs and Outputs. With any input variable, along with an RPM variable, maps can be created to make adjustments for whatever you choose. For example, boost can be altered via a lean or rich condition, or any sensor temperatures. It is not always recommend, but it can be done.

It also has inputs for a shift light, an external LED, TPS control, and a Dual Map switch. Switching between maps can be done 'on the fly'.

The Xede is also OBD II compatible. Once the car is started and Xede has been activated, it is in complete control of timing, fuel, boost, and O2 sensor offsets. Since the stock ECU is still retained, cold start, OBD II, emissions, and low speed drive ability are just as Mazda intended.
Stephanie

Yes and I think that is exactly what should come with a tuning solution. But still feel that a grand is to steep.

[Captain KRM P5]

if anyone would like to see further results of what we've done - tuned on the street and not even the dyno - with the XEDE, feel free to look here;

http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123680546

[MS3ICA]

looking at the hp numbers you cannot find more horsepower per dollar than ecu mods like the xede or cpe standback. best bang for the buck by far!!!

[StephanieT]

Yes and I think that is exactly what should come with a tuning solution. But still feel that a grand is to steep.
Maybe for some it is. Any good Engine management tuning system is more expensive than $1000.00. A standalone ECU will cost upwards of $2000.00. The Xede has more capabilities of a standalone ECU than those of a typical piggyback. It is priced closer to a piggyback system.
Stephanie

[SuperStretch18]

$1000 is a little steep but as mentioned in the TWM short shifter thread, the cost of development is probably higher due to the limited number of MS3s out there. The cost can not be spread out as far over a greater number of cars.

Side note; the CX-7 would use the same connector as the MS3 (confirmed by CPE) on what is essentially the same ecu. That adds some significant volume. I can tell you that there are a number of CX-7 guys looking for a good PnP option...(attn)

[blaggah]

$1k for 50hp~ and 50~tq to the wheels.


~50hp and ~50tq to the wheels from a stock setup?
Or is that with the air box removed?


Back in February you posted this

from the two dynos, both are consistant.

40 hp and about 40-50tq.

Is the extra 10hp now from better maps?


I've been tracking this product ever since I got my speed3 in January, but I'm still a newbie to tuning, so please forgive my ignorance.

[funkyman]

Well the Begi web page doesn`t have a dyno alone but with the air box FMIC etc.Anyway if the price drops to 600usd i might consider it otherwise i can`t afford it and a whole lot of other MS3 owners can`t either i imagine.

[SPEED305]

awesome product, but
(direct)(direct)(direct) can this darn PnP be released already!
its like everyone is (sleep)(sleep) on this.
(bang)(bang)make the damn thing already
stop teasing!(poke)(poke)
if it wont be out until end of year, just say it. from what i read its been coming out soon since before they built the MS3, lol. (omg)

[meha11]

my money is on xmas for pnp.
think they are having issues over the rights to the connector- as in who is gona pocket the cash from the extra production.

[Haltech]

Some of you guys amaze me. You want horsepower, yet you want it cheap. Now there's a conspiracy over the connectors, lol and mass profits emerge!

Ok.. Lets look at it like this. For years i had to take my truck in to get tuned. First inital chip was $300... The tune + dyno was an additional $200. Several mods later, more trips. I think i had about $3900 in tunes before we had our own tuning solution which STILL required me to buy a different chip.

$1000 is fricken cheap for a system YOU can tune at any time and gives you 40-50HP. PNP is coming from both sides, just be patient. Im getting a Standback with a bypass cable until the PNP harness is avail. I can no longer wait, so ill go down this road for the time being. I want 300 to the wheels and after the fuel problem is solved, 350+ with the ATP.

Ive found the Mazda parts are on the cheap compared to all the modular parts ive purchased. Maybe its the age difference between me and others, but i stand by my statement that $1000 is a drop in the bucket and an absolute deal for a piggyback setup.

[funkyman]

Ill wait for the 350whp kit then?Then we can kill some 2008 M3`s.

[meha11]

Some of you guys amaze me. You want horsepower, yet you want it cheap. Now there's a conspiracy over the connectors, lol and mass profits emerge!.

Conspiracy is your word not mine and would imply some kind of secret.

Following quote is taken from

http://www.bellengineering.net/Pages/products_MazdaSpeed3_parts.html


"Right now, the plug 'n play harness is not available for the MS3. We anticipate delivery of the PNP patch harness in 2007. There has been some confusion between the parts manufacturer and assembler as to whose part it is to sell. Once that is straightened out, the connectors will be made and shipped."

[palerider]

The title of this thread is...."thinking Xede not worth it"

The only way its not worth it is because it will wreck the warranty at this point. That I can agree with. But because warranty has not been mentioned but instead performance.... I think the title of the thread is wrong.

The title should read...."thinking Mazdaspeed3 not worth it".

Why spend thousands more for a speed3 when you can have a nice peppy hatch like the regular 3, for less. CAI, intercooler, exhaust, and Xede can be had for roughly $3000.... This turns the car into an STI/ EVO fwd killer, and a sleeper killer at that. If somehow this is not valuable to someone, then i feel as if the whole point of buying a speed3 is lost. Especially if warranty is not the main issue being discussed.

If its the case..... why buy a WRX over a regular impreza, why buy an STI over a WRX. Some mods are more than others, some cars are base models, some cars are more expensive performance models. Xede gives more gain than TBE, for the same price. It gives well over double the gain as intercooler for less than double the price. It gives the ability to improve/ tune all other mods, instead of creating diminishing returns like other added parts.

I just dont get it. But hey.... the speed3 is a limited production car. Obviously performance isnt the biggest factor for everyone. I guess thats why they still make the mazda3.

Maybe buying the mazda3 is the "smart" choice for those who dont think money for faster cars is "worth" it.

[desperado-c]

Some of you guys amaze me. You want horsepower, yet you want it cheap. Now there's a conspiracy over the connectors, lol and mass profits emerge!

Ok.. Lets look at it like this. For years i had to take my truck in to get tuned. First inital chip was $300... The tune + dyno was an additional $200. Several mods later, more trips. I think i had about $3900 in tunes before we had our own tuning solution which STILL required me to buy a different chip.

$1000 is fricken cheap for a system YOU can tune at any time and gives you 40-50HP. PNP is coming from both sides, just be patient. Im getting a Standback with a bypass cable until the PNP harness is avail. I can no longer wait, so ill go down this road for the time being. I want 300 to the wheels and after the fuel problem is solved, 350+ with the ATP.

Ive found the Mazda parts are on the cheap compared to all the modular parts ive purchased. Maybe its the age difference between me and others, but i stand by my statement that $1000 is a drop in the bucket and an absolute deal for a piggyback setup.

Again, more much needed context for the teenagers and twenty-somethings. A big amen to that. I hope you'll share your install/tuning notes and driving impressions with us. I'll look forward to it.

[StephanieT]

~50hp and ~50tq to the wheels from a stock setup?
Or is that with the air box removed?
At the time, the car was completely stock. After having been on the dyno all day, the Air Box LID was removed. We did do base runs with the LID on and off. The remainder of the air box was still intact.
Stephanie

[meha11]

Its still too expensive for what it is.599 is an ideal price:-) You would definately sell more and make more profits as oppsed to sell a few at 1000usd.I would not install a crummy aftermarket exhaust,however a test pipe and down pipe yes which gives 40whp and at a cheaper price.

Not sure i believe the 40 whp gain and yes i do have a TBE so my opinion is somewhat valid.
EDIT:
What the hell, this should have been post 61, it was after 8pm when i wrote it???????????????

[x'ed]

Xede give more gain than TBE, for the same price. It gives well over double the gain as intercooler for less than double the price. It gives the ability to improve/ tune all other mods, instead of creating diminishing returns like other added parts.


Maybe buying the mazda3 is the "smart" choice for those who dont think money for faster cars is "worth" it.

Eggfreakingzaktly, so many idiots want to drop a 1,000 dollars on their exhaust because it makes their cars sound "mad tight you" when you can get the xede which adds a dyno prover 50whp. HOW someone can complaint about getting 50whp for a 1,000 dollars SERIOUSLY blows my mind.

[funkyman]

Its still too expensive for what it is.599 is an ideal price:-) You would definately sell more and make more profits as opposed to selling a few at 1000usd.I would not install a crummy aftermarket exhaust,however a test pipe and down pipe yes, which by the way gives 40whp and at a cheaper price for 400usd shipped.:-)So i rather not tamper with the ECU programmed in Hiroshima:-)

[SwampAss]

they'll sell @ $1000. I have no doubt. I'll be in line too.

[funkyman]

Sell what at 1000usd.?

[SwampAss]

Oh Hai.

XEDE

[funkyman]

Aloha to you too:-)
Exede does what a Comforti Shark injector does for 299.:-) Except not being able to remove the rev limiter or the boost limiter:-)
Sorry my other car is a 330CI :-)

[Haltech]

Its still too expensive for what it is.599 is an ideal price:-) You would definately sell more and make more profits as opposed to selling a few at 1000usd.I would not install a crummy aftermarket exhaust,however a test pipe and down pipe yes, which by the way gives 40whp and at a cheaper price for 400usd shipped.:-)So i rather not tamper with the ECU programmed in Hiroshima:-)




I dont see how you can say its still expensive. You get a guaranteed min of 40 hp plus the ability to go higher as you add mods. YOURE in control!

Eventually youre going to have to free up the exhaust, so it doesnt really matter if you spend the additonal $1000 now or later. Its what seperates the boys from the men.

I look at the honda boys who spend thousands on their car for mods and their cars are still slow!

[clos561]

a good tune is always worth it if your trying to go FAST, if your not then u can be the car getting smaller and smaller in the rear view of someone elses' car

[StephanieT]

Eventually youre going to have to free up the exhaust, so it doesnt really matter if you spend the additonal $1000 now or later. Its what seperates the boys from the men.
The ONLY gain in the exhaust system is to remove a stock CAT. The stock exhaust system is actually a very good part.
Stephanie

[desperado-c]

The ONLY gain in the exhaust system is to remove a stock CAT. The stock exhaust system is actually a very good part.
Stephanie

Stephanie, you said remove a stock cat. So, you mean get rid of just one of the two as opposed to a race/test pipe which takes them both out? If so, do you know if it would it also work well with the stock ECU and intercooler? I keep reading about different problems with race/test pipes and down pipes, some major, some minor. Be nice to have an uncomplicated, interim mod that adds some noticeable power before moving on to bigger, better, more powerful mods down the road.

[clos561]

isnt test pipe jsut a pipe that replaces the cat?

[StephanieT]

We have not replace the pipe yet. We will at some point, but for a power improver this part will be minor.

I would replace both CAT's to eliminate the restriction. Technically it is for "race applications" and will fail OBD II emissions testing. We have replaced stock CAT's on a MSM with a metallic core hi flow CAT for a 5 rwhp gain. Removing the CAT and replacing it with a straight pipe (on an MSM)yielded another 5 rwhp gain. For a total of 10 rwhp by removing the CAT.

But it is still a minor restriction. We placed gauges in the exhaust system to measure efficiency during several dyno runs.
Downpipe, Pre-Cat - 0 psi
Downpipe, between CAT's - 4.5 psi
Exhaust, pre muffler - 0.5 in vac
What was lost in the stock CAT was gained back in the exhaust. Overall, a fairly well designed piece. We will replace the exhaust with one of Corky's design. BUT, we are not expecting much of a gain if any at all.
Stephanie

[funkyman]

DP replaces CAT1 and Race pipe CAT 2 and voila!!! 40HP WITH 400USD SHIPPED.

[knowledge007]

We have not replace the pipe yet. We will at some point, but for a power improver this part will be minor.

I would replace both CAT's to eliminate the restriction. Technically it is for "race applications" and will fail OBD II emissions testing. We have replaced stock CAT's on a MSM with a metallic core hi flow CAT for a 5 rwhp gain. Removing the CAT and replacing it with a straight pipe (on an MSM)yielded another 5 rwhp gain. For a total of 10 rwhp by removing the CAT.

But it is still a minor restriction. We placed gauges in the exhaust system to measure efficiency during several dyno runs.
Downpipe, Pre-Cat - 0 psi
Downpipe, between CAT's - 4.5 psi
Exhaust, pre muffler - 0.5 in vac
What was lost in the stock CAT was gained back in the exhaust. Overall, a fairly well designed piece. We will replace the exhaust with one of Corky's design. BUT, we are not expecting much of a gain if any at all.
Stephanie


Is this all with the stock exhaust? If it is, then of course you are not going to get much out of it.

[zoom-zoomhatch]

Mazdaspeed Miata...

[knowledge007]

oh lmao, I forgot about those...

[x'ed]

DP replaces CAT1 and Race pipe CAT 2 and voila!!! 40HP WITH 400USD SHIPPED.


Is there a dyno for this, 40 hp for any exhaust seems a little optimisitic, or else alot of ms3's would be puting down 300whp with 40 hp gains from exhaust and 30 from cai's. Also, running a super loud exhaust in los angeles is pretty much a sure fire way to get pulled over and ticketed if you have any visable aftermarket parts on your car.

[Haltech]

The ONLY gain in the exhaust system is to remove a stock CAT. The stock exhaust system is actually a very good part.
Stephanie


I agree until you start running a big turbo... 3inch is going to show some gains.

[boosted3]

Originally Posted by Haltech View Post
Eventually youre going to have to free up the exhaust, so it doesnt really matter if you spend the additonal $1000 now or later. Its what seperates the boys from the men.

Whew! I'm so very thankful that I had an extra 1000.00 dollars to spend now rather than later...I dunno if I could live with my manhood being questioned by a well rounded thinker such as yourself.

[funkyman]

It shows you who picks the money off the trees or their dads and who don`t,or earn it the hard way:-)

[clos561]

Is there a dyno for this, 40 hp for any exhaust seems a little optimisitic, or else alot of ms3's would be puting down 300whp with 40 hp gains from exhaust and 30 from cai's. Also, running a super loud exhaust in los angeles is pretty much a sure fire way to get pulled over and ticketed if you have any visable aftermarket parts on your car.

there is a new dyno chart of a ms3 dyno'd with 4th gear pull put down 249 whp and 270something torque. TBE and intake could put these cars very very close to 300whp(five-0)

[justhavnfun]

We have not replace the pipe yet. We will at some point, but for a power improver this part will be minor.

I would replace both CAT's to eliminate the restriction. Technically it is for "race applications" and will fail OBD II emissions testing. We have replaced stock CAT's on a MSM with a metallic core hi flow CAT for a 5 rwhp gain. Removing the CAT and replacing it with a straight pipe (on an MSM)yielded another 5 rwhp gain. For a total of 10 rwhp by removing the CAT.

But it is still a minor restriction. We placed gauges in the exhaust system to measure efficiency during several dyno runs.
Downpipe, Pre-Cat - 0 psi
Downpipe, between CAT's - 4.5 psi
Exhaust, pre muffler - 0.5 in vac
What was lost in the stock CAT was gained back in the exhaust. Overall, a fairly well designed piece. We will replace the exhaust with one of Corky's design. BUT, we are not expecting much of a gain if any at all.
Stephanie
would a o2 simulator work with the mazdaspeed3? i know that ms3 has a four wire 02 sensor and i have a four wire o2 simulator and thought i would try to cut the wires and attach it to a pig tail from a new 02 sensor. what are your thoughts?

[rumble rider]

would a o2 simulator work with the mazdaspeed3? i know that ms3 has a four wire 02 sensor and i have a four wire o2 simulator and thought i would try to cut the wires and attach it to a pig tail from a new 02 sensor. what are your thoughts?

why would you want to put a simulator on your mazda3? splicing your wires sounds like something a spoiled 16yo would do. a neighbor of mine has a mazda 3 speed.and he took out the cats, put airshocks and jacked it up in the back. i was thinking you are that person. he's got a 4" downpipe w/no mufflers or cats straight from the turbo back. think he had to hammer in the firewall to fit the downpipe in. u from AL?

[justhavnfun]

why would you want to put a simulator on your mazda3? splicing your wires sounds like something a spoiled 16yo would do. a neighbor of mine has a mazda 3 speed.and he took out the cats, put airshocks and jacked it up in the back. i was thinking you are that person. he's got a 4" downpipe w/no mufflers or cats straight from the turbo back. think he had to hammer in the firewall to fit the downpipe in. u from AL?

ha-ha john very funny. (hi)

[knowledge007]

there is a new dyno chart of a ms3 dyno'd with 4th gear pull put down 249 whp and 270something torque. TBE and intake could put these cars very very close to 300whp(five-0)

You mean like mine... But yet some still question it. It doesn't matter b/c once I get the standback, I am going to push this beast to 18psi. So the hell with it.

[palerider]

Im still waiting on Xede PNP.

The minute it becomes available, I will purchase TMIC, full exhaust, engine mount, STS, and Mazdaspeed wheels. For now I dont want my warranty questioned, and Im still getting little kinks in the car worked out for free because of it. But Protege Garage will be getting a long call the minute the ECU is released.

Did you hear that Ken?(naughty)

How about an update? I know you cant give us a date, but it was implied that something would be available in August. Oh well. I guess with so many people waiting it puts alot of pressure on you, but a weekly/ monthly update on a system that has been essentially on hold for a year would be nice. I dont think Im looking for a promise, just an update.

I dont want to feel about Xede, like I do about the Cobb ECU. I feel like it is total bullshit and will never hit the market..... There has to be some news on Xede you can share.


Editted to add... If PNP is not imminent, Id like to know that. Ive been sitting on the fence ready to void my warranty, by wiring the SOB in anyway. I just dont want to do it and then two weeks later regret it because PNP is released. Hopefully with my dilemma in hand, you could advise us. Im sure there has to be others out there on the fence, for the same reasons I am.

[palerider]

You mean like mine... But yet some still question it. It doesn't matter b/c once I get the standback, I am going to push this beast to 18psi. So the hell with it.

Hey man... did you ever dyno your setup?

[StephanieT]

would a o2 simulator work with the mazdaspeed3? i know that ms3 has a four wire 02 sensor and i have a four wire o2 simulator and thought i would try to cut the wires and attach it to a pig tail from a new 02 sensor. what are your thoughts?
You would use an O2 mod to make the car go open loop sooner. However, that is not needed in this car. On a Miata it would work great, but not the MS3.

PNP Info from BEGi website: "**Right now, the plug 'n play harness is not available for the MS3. We anticipate delivery of the PNP patch harness in late 2007. There has been some confusion between the parts manufacturer and assembler as to whose part it is to sell. Once that is straightened out, the connectors will be made and shipped. **"
http://www.bellengineering.net/Pages/products_MazdaSpeed3_parts.html
Stephanie

[knowledge007]

The hell with it, I purchased CP-E's standback. How long does it take to frigure out who sells what??? They do the same shit and I perfer them anyway considering I know how they handle there stuff when it comes down to sheer craftsmanship and knowledge of this vehicle and or their products.

[Bravnik]

LOL - Try having an S2000. You have to put in over 6k to hit high 12s :)

[voiceKoil]

LOL - Try having an S2000. You have to put in over 6k to hit high 12s :)

And thats on a good tune with race gas... ;)