Info on my dyno, have tons of info!!! EMS, GT3071R

[forrestang]

Went to P&L on the 14 of July, seldom post here so I thought someone might be interested.

Nice place, good facilities. The guy let me get an hour, so I could get as many runs in as possible. And I could make any adjustments necessary as long as I got it done within that hour. The manager Paul said he'd estimate I'd hit 293whp, based on motor size and psi(really nice guy by the way). He said his dyno reads about 10hp lower than the other local dynos in Illinois...so he'd be surprised if I hit 300.

I told him I just wanted to hit 300whp.

I will posts the graphs up, he should email them to me Monday. I might try and snap pics with my camera to post?

Background:
I went to a different dyno about 2 months ago, but I had to make my runs immediately after sitting in rush hour, and strapped it down. Max, it made 288whp with the street tuned map. With the zeroed out map with none of my changes, the car made 240whp. So that map was worth about 44whp. None of this data is reliable as I dynoed in the absolute worst possible conditions imaginable. Just FYI.

Fast-Foward to 14July07
Anywayz.....First run I made, with the street tune, I made 297whp & 311ft-lbs. My A/F was super shitty. The car spat a few times and didn't pull smoothly at all.

I made a few tweaks and added a few points of fuel. Next run was much cleaner, the A/F was MUCH cleaner, and I hit 311whp and 304ft-lbs max

I made a few more tweaks, next run was 313.35whp & 311.56ft-lbs. At this point, there is still something in my A/F that I didn't like. But it's still clean. I'm certain I could have gotten a few more poinies out of it, I jsut didn't have time. I will fix it later.
http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=112572&stc=1&d=1185028278

Good thing, I recorded everything with the standback. So I have tons of data recorded. it just needs to be posted.

I was looking at the dyno, and looking at where the car starts to loose power. You'll notice the first place in loss of power is right around 4800 rpm. On my logs, I am showing that thats where the throttle plate starts closing, a clear distint difference is in tps voltage as it drops below 4.0 volts.


The second place is where the car falls off pretty significant. This is about 5200 rpm. On my logs, the ignition is cut by about 30%. And you can see the power being cut accordingly.

http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=112573&stc=1&d=1185028345

Next, look at the dyno graph at 5700rpm, that when it picks it's power back up. The Ignition is back up slightly at this point. I'm not sure if the car is protecting itself, or if it's just something weird?

And the Boost controller function worked pretty good today, with my PSI set at 19psi, it just about hit it spot on. It should be ramping up faster, I think one size jet smaller than 0.047 will work nicely to remedy this. I have to order one as that was the smallest I had.

Unfortunately, for power production, there is a ceiling, and it seems to be a fueling problem? I don't see anyone hitting too much more whp than I have without some fueling resolution. Another Speed ownder with upgrades similiar to mine ran into this ceiling as well. I sent Jordan my data, and he posted this. The fuel pressure and injecter pulse width. You can see why my car probably started pulling timeing. You can see the two starting to diverge, as my car started to run into a fueling problem. The high pressure pump was probably done at this point?
http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=112574&stc=1&d=1185029252

[forrestang]

These are all of the parameters I can log with my EMS:
RPM, vTPSin, vMAFin, WBo2, WBohm, WBhst, IgnT, PSI, %XFcor, %AFCcor, TotMAfCor, NewMAFv, NewMAPp, NewMAPv, InjOn@, InjOff@, InjDC, InjPW, EngCYC, SyncLos, InSync, TimingCh, vbat, DesMAP, WGopt, Errpsi, WGP, WGI, WGD, Fcut, Fp%, FPvi, FPvo, FPin, FPout

Any other graphs you'l like to see, I can post them.

[buit9110]

wow, pretty good, ms6 mike, kurfgator and me finished my gt3071 yesterday and its up and running, i'm ordering the cpe ems soon, any chance I can get your set up?

[forrestang]

Send me email addy.....

[Jon06Speed6]

Is CPE going to provide base tunes for us?

I realize the best thing to do is get professional tuning on a dyno, but I would like to buy the tuner as soon as possible and not have to pay for dyno time with every engine change.

[forrestang]

The unit ships with a base tune. But looking at it, it's very conservative, probably a lot of whp left on the table.

And realistically, if you're not going to have it tuned on a dyno, there's no point to worry about making tuning changes for every part swap change.

Basically, if you have a decent base tune.....and then you add say a CAI or Cat-Back aftewards, I don't think you're gonna squeeze much more out of the tune.

[Kooldino]

Looks good, congrats!

[pHeeL tHiZ ViBe]

thanks for the good info!

i'm a little confused on the fueling issue though?? i don't think i fully understand the problem. and worse i can't tell what the solution is lol!

it seems like i vaguely remember reading that CP-E had implemented some solution for a fueling issue in their ECM. i think directly concerning the voltage drop. does anyone know anything about that?

i sure hate the idea of running into this power limiting ceiling :'(

[forrestang]

thanks for the good info!

i'm a little confused on the fueling issue though?? i don't think i fully understand the problem. and worse i can't tell what the solution is lol!

I could be wrong here, but what you see in that post is the increasing of the injector pulse width, along with a drop in fuel pressure. What's happening with the duty cycle is, it's telling us that it's taking longer for the injector to introduce the proper fuel into the cylinder. As this number increases, you start to run into lean spikes and potentially detonation.

Injectors become unrealiable/unpredictable when the duty cycle starts to go above a certain threshold.

But at the same time we see a corresponding drop in fuel pressure. So what's happening I think is that since we have less fuel pressure, that means less pressure at the fuel rail -> less pressure at the injector -> less fuel coming out of injector -> injectos stays open longer to inject proper fuel.

Less atomization of fuel probably as well.

So I don't know exactly what caused this? Wether something throttled back the fuel pump? Or if the knock sensor picked up knock and cut back timing?

The car definetely cut timing by a huge amount, I'm just not sure what caused it? But it seems to be a lack of fuel.



it seems like i vaguely remember reading that CP-E had implemented some solution for a fueling issue in their ECM. i think directly concerning the voltage drop. does anyone know anything about that?

i sure hate the idea of running into this power limiting ceiling :'(

I think they know something about it. I don't think they've identified a fix yet though.

[pHeeL tHiZ ViBe]

a lack of fuel, and not caused by the injectors..or by the pump itself i don't think.

hmm..interesting

[forrestang]

a lack of fuel, and not caused by the injectors..or by the pump itself i don't think.

hmm..interesting

It's gotta be one or the other(injectors or pump)? I think it's the pump that's done.

We've got two.....low pressure in tank, and high pressure cam driven.

Replacing even the low pressure pump might help remedy the problem?

[pHeeL tHiZ ViBe]

ah..you are right i'm sure. i was almost under the impression that something was cutting back the fuel, not that it was just running out and trying to make up for it with a wider pulse. but after looking at the charts, and reading your explanation. i think thats it.

i don't know what i was originally thinking (screwy) lol

[forrestang]

ah..you are right i'm sure. i was almost under the impression that something was cutting back the fuel.....

You very well might be right. This was what I was thinking at first. I wouldn't rule it out though.

If I had more dyno time, just for grins, giggles and safety, I would cut the timing waaay back, and make a pull while adding another few percent in that area of increased pulse-width(since you can manipulate fuel pressure with the EMS).....and just to verify the fuel pressure is not being commanded lower by the ECU for some reason.

[MUSOM]

any idea how 313 whp will do on 1/4 ET?

[forrestang]

I'm hoping to get to the track before the year is out.

:)

[Haltech]

I wonder if its possible to use the SVT Focus high pressure pump inside the fuel tank. If anything, it may keep the volume up to par. I dumped my low pressure pumps in my lightning and went to high pressure focus pumps. It made a huge difference on my tune and knocked the injector duty cycle down by an easy 20%. I didnt have to jump up to 55lb injectors by doing this.

I cant find any info on our high pressure DISI pumps. Ive been combing the net and powerstroke diesal sites all week. Its a tiny little guy with an off connector to the fuel line. Maybe the Audi guys have a solution for their DISI yet?

[forrestang]

I cant find any info on our high pressure DISI pumps. Ive been combing the net and powerstroke diesal sites all week. Its a tiny little guy with an off connector to the fuel line. Maybe the Audi guys have a solution for their DISI yet?

I've been wondering this as well mayne? Would be a nice solution and seems like it might at least help and get that duty cycle back down and fuel the car for more whp.

[forrestang]

I cant find any info on our high pressure DISI pumps. Ive been combing the net and powerstroke diesal sites all week. Its a tiny little guy with an off connector to the fuel line. Maybe the Audi guys have a solution for their DISI yet?

[forrestang]

I wonder if its possible to use the SVT Focus high pressure pump inside the fuel tank. If anything, it may keep the volume up to par. I dumped my low pressure pumps in my lightning and went to high pressure focus pumps. It made a huge difference on my tune and knocked the injector duty cycle down by an easy 20%. I didnt have to jump up to 55lb injectors by doing this.



Got any links or write ups to guys doing this? I'd like to read up on it.

Hopefully within the next few months, I'll be ditching this car as my daily driver and turn into a garage project.

[Haltech]

Got any links or write ups to guys doing this? I'd like to read up on it.

Hopefully within the next few months, I'll be ditching this car as my daily driver and turn into a garage project.

Did it myself, as with other lightning and 03/04 cobra guys. Head over to modularfords.com and check out the forums. Lot of threads on it. I'd be willing to do it but i dont have the ATP yet. I can give you links to the pumps.

Part number for SVT focus pump: 3S4Z-9H307-BC

http://www.speedconcepts.net/product_info.php?products_id=687

[forrestang]

Did it myself, as with other lightning and 03/04 cobra guys. Head over to modularfords.com and check out the forums. Lot of threads on it. I'd be willing to do it but i dont have the ATP yet. I can give you links to the pumps.

Part number for SVT focus pump: 3S4Z-9H307-BC

http://www.speedconcepts.net/product_info.php?products_id=687

Does that thing have like a regular Walbro body in it? Like the kind you would use on say an 87-93 mustang?

Cause I know we can't just drop in that unit, as it's modular and has the fuel level sender as a part of it.

I would like to find the part number to the Speed unit and find out what we can just drop in place of it?

[Haltech]

Does that thing have like a regular Walbro body in it? Like the kind you would use on say an 87-93 mustang?

Cause I know we can't just drop in that unit, as it's modular and has the fuel level sender as a part of it.

I would like to find the part number to the Speed unit and find out what we can just drop in place of it?

Dont bother with the picture. Looks like a walbro with a 2 pin pig tail. These pumps are plain unless they are selling something else. Thats why i gave you the part number. They are 255 LPH pumps btw. Whats the stocker in the MS6/3?

[Chris-BE]

Dont bother with the picture. Looks like a walbro with a 2 pin pig tail. These pumps are plain unless they are selling something else. Thats why i gave you the part number. They are 255 LPH pumps btw. Whats the stocker in the MS6/3?

That would be nuts if a 255LPH pump wasn't enough.

As far as I know nobody knows the flow rate of the stock fuel pumps.

[forrestang]

That would be nuts if a 255LPH pump wasn't enough.

As far as I know nobody knows the flow rate of the stock fuel pumps.

I was trying to figure that out right now. That information seems to be hidden?

I don't know if we'll be able to find a simple replacement? It seems like the in tank is a modular limit, with a built in regulator, filter etc.......

But maybe you can just replace the body itself?

Supposedly this thing can be accessed with the removal of the rear seat. I might take a look at it when I get back in town next week to see what it looks like.

[MS6mike]

i need to have a better pump ASAP maybe cp-e would look into it!

[Haltech]

Well im not sure how much DISI has changed the in tank fuel pump setup. I dont know why they would include a regulator in tank.. Theres not much room. The filters are socks that just pop off the pump itself.. Sort of like a grit inhibitor for a wash bucket. The pump should be replaceable but we need cross reference numbers to see what the hell it is...

On a side note, the Audi guys arent running out of fuel. Sooo, what is the odds of a Audi DISI pump being able to fit on our cars? I think some phone calls to the Audi tuners may answer some questions for us. Which Audi's are DISI?

[cx7pos]

according to the reading the manual data, between the low pressure pump and the high pressure pump is a returnless system, so if there is a overflow... there would be no where for this pressurized fuel to go. Hence the regulator in the tank.

[Haltech]

When ford introduced the returnless system on the 03 cobra, the regulator sat up on the fuel rail. The regulator was perm set to 39 psi as with the fuel injector pressure. If the regulator is in the tank, is because it wouldnt make sense to have it in the engine bay since the DISI pump takes over.

[mrlilguy157]

Well im not sure how much DISI has changed the in tank fuel pump setup. I dont know why they would include a regulator in tank.. Theres not much room. The filters are socks that just pop off the pump itself.. Sort of like a grit inhibitor for a wash bucket. The pump should be replaceable but we need cross reference numbers to see what the hell it is...

On a side note, the Audi guys arent running out of fuel. Sooo, what is the odds of a Audi DISI pump being able to fit on our cars? I think some phone calls to the Audi tuners may answer some questions for us. Which Audi's are DISI?


COMING FROM THE VW/AUDI TUNING WORLD (now a mazdaspeed 3 driver):

the only audi/vw motor in america that features the FSI system (same as DISI) is the 2.0t motor. its found in audi a4's, vw gti's, vw jetta gli's, passat's, and soon to be the new beetle.

its very possible there is a bolt on part interchangable for the pumps. most likely vw/audi part is a bosch part, and i called and asked the mazda dealer what ours were, he didn't know and said it wasn't in documentation, but the replacement camdriven pump costs $447.80

let me know what you guys find out.

[cx7pos]

Why don't we all just Ask Ron/Ed Bergenholtz.. they run the DISI 2.3L MZR.. with 1300+ HP.. I am sure they got the fuel licked ;)

[Haltech]

Why don't we all just Ask Ron/Ed Bergenholtz.. they run the DISI 2.3L MZR.. with 1300+ HP.. I am sure they got the fuel licked ;)

LOL, give em a call... and i doubt they are using DISI.

[mrlilguy157]

Why don't we all just Ask Ron/Ed Bergenholtz.. they run the DISI 2.3L MZR.. with 1300+ HP.. I am sure they got the fuel licked ;)

give me their phone number?

[Chris-BE]

I thought they ran a 2.3L de-stroked to 2.1L non MZR motor.

[gerasimatos]

I thought they ran a 2.3L de-stroked to 2.1L non MZR motor.


http://www.nhrasportcompact.com/2007/drivers/e_bergenholtz.html

[cx7pos]

From my friend at Haltech, he said he spoke to Ron at SS9. He remember them talking about the DISI motor, but he CAN'T be sure if they are running the DISI version of the motor. Planning to find out this year at SS10 if they are running on the regular MZR or the MZR DISI version.

According web sources it is the MZR DISI, but who knows.. they might be just saying it.

[Chris-BE]

http://www.nhrasportcompact.com/2007/drivers/e_bergenholtz.html

Yeah my bad, I was thinking of the black Mazda 6 with flames. That was 2 years ago.