CPE performance upgrades

[Dalton]

Hello everybody interested in greater performance!

Just got responce (http://www.msprotege.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3170675&postcount=237) from CPE, that there is piggypack under development called Standback and it can be installed on CX7 - but someone just might go to CPE...

Custom Performance Engineering
6802 Mid Cities Avenue.
Beltsville, MD 20705

and volunteer with his/her suv to give other owners great product!!! (cool)


Originally Posted by Dalton
Is there something coming for CX7 also - I ordered the CP-E CAI but mostly in terms of EMU?

We fully intend on adapting the Standback to the CX7. We just need someone to come by our shop when we have a spare moment so we can find the right wires to tap, and to make sure that we have the right crank timing wheel pattern. In other words, the Standback as it sits can be installed on a CX7 with no hardware changes, which makes our lives much easier

[AWmustang]

Darn I wish i lived closer to MD.

[gsrtype1]

sounds cool!!!!!

[KatDiesel]

It will be nice if its Plug-n-Play. However that is up in the air at this time when I last spoke to them.

[vbbuilt01]

(huh) What is this doodad supposed to do for the CX-7?

Vince

[SuperStretch18]

(huh) What is this doodad supposed to do for the CX-7?

Vince

Adjusts fuel delivery, timing, spark, turbo psi, etc. to increase HP and torque.

[captaingoodvibe]

when will cp know if they can do it. im in aus your quite welcome to try out on mine

[Dalton]

when will cp know if they can do it. im in aus your quite welcome to try out on mine

Jeah great - you're aussie - thats measly 10 000 miles away (to every direction) - twice the distance than me (glare)

ok seriously - (direct) just between Washington and Baltimore - anybody (huh)

[BadakVT]

I'm in columbia, MD, might be able to loan my car for a day or so depending on the schedule...
Who do I have to contact to set things up?
BTW, the car is FWD and it's bonestock except for a k&n filter.

[Dalton]

I'm in columbia, MD, might be able to loan my car for a day or so depending on the schedule...
Who do I have to contact to set things up?
BTW, the car is FWD and it's bonestock except for a k&n filter.

(cool)

I think you should e-mail the www.cp-e.com -> HERE via e-mail (http://www.msprotege.com/forum/sendmessage.php?do=mailmember&u=27132)

or PM -> HERE via PM (http://www.msprotege.com/forum/private.php?do=newpm&u=27132)

The product is Standback Engine management

[jestermsp]

im in nj and am also willing to take a drive down. only would have the weekend though.

[Dalton]

im in nj and am also willing to take a drive down. only would have the weekend though.

Procedures are following - pm www.cp-e.com



Actually, you are a perfect candidate for this project, being local and having a stock, front wheel drive model. I'm very interested in working with you, but I need a couple days to work out a time to get you in here.

We should only require your car for a day, but may need two if any troubleshooting is required. Then we'll need to dyno it, which will eat up another day. Of course, we can spread this out to fit your schedule.

If you're still interested, shoot me back with a PM and I'll get you an open time to stop by as soon as I can. Thanks again!


Cheers,
Jordan

[SuperStretch18]

I am green with envy; one time I wish I didn't move out of Jersey... :p

[BadakVT]

FYI, I just pmed CPE and I'm just waiting for a time slot now. I'll keep you guys updated.

[Int3grity]

POST UPDATES PLEASE keep us tuned

[KatDiesel]

Yes updates would be nice. I've got my fingers crossed they released a Plug-N-Play version for us....but last time I spoke with them it was up in the air.

[BadakVT]

I'll be dropping the car this Friday and I'll have it back before Monday. If they have time to dyno tune the car, I'm sure they will post the results. But if they don't get to dyno it I should be able to give you guys some feedback by Monday night.

[Mazda3]

I'll be dropping the car this Friday and I'll have it back before Monday. If they have time to dyno tune the car, I'm sure they will post the results. But if they don't get to dyno it I should be able to give you guys some feedback by Monday night.

Awesome!!!
Thanks for helping out!! (thumb)

[CX-7owner]

I'll be dropping the car this Friday and I'll have it back before Monday. If they have time to dyno tune the car, I'm sure they will post the results. But if they don't get to dyno it I should be able to give you guys some feedback by Monday night.
YEAHHHHHH! Thanks a lot!

[BadakVT]

Guys, unfortunately CPE couldn't do it this weekend. However, I am scheduled for next Friday.

[BadakVT]

Car was dropped off at CPE earlier today. Should have it back sometimes Monday. I'll keep you guys updated...

[Mazda3]

Car was dropped off at CPE earlier today. Should have it back sometimes Monday. I'll keep you guys updated...

Anxiously awaiting an update!! :D

[spike blue]

so whats going on any updates??

[CX-7owner]

Car was dropped off at CPE earlier today. Should have it back sometimes Monday. I'll keep you guys updated...
YESSSS update please!

[jestermsp]

anxiuosly awaiting as the clock is ticking.

[www.cp-e.com]

We installed the Standback into Mike's car this past weekend, and everything went smoothly. We were even able to take a datalog from the car during a WOT run which I'll post later once I pretty it up a little ;)

Mike said that he was going to post an update as soon as he got the chance, but he just returned from a long trip so he's taking it easy in the mean time. Hopefully he'll chime in here with his thoughts after he gets a chance to relax.

Interestingly, the CX7 throttle doesn't act like the SPEED3 throttle in that it isn't a limitation. The throttle was wide open when we put the pedal to the floor, which is good. The bad news is that the turbo is being limited by something other than the wastegate and/or the throttle. The SPEED3/6 vehicles can maintain ~16psi to about 6000rpm without issue, but the CX7 had more trouble maintaining that pressure towards redline. It'll take some time for us to figure out exactly what's going on since this is the first CX7 in the country with any kind of engine management on it. So we're learning as we go.

But give me some time and I'll post up some graphs from the data logs...


Jordan

[Mazda3]

We installed the Standback into Mike's car this past weekend, and everything went smoothly. We were even able to take a datalog from the car during a WOT run which I'll post later once I pretty it up a little ;)

Mike said that he was going to post an update as soon as he got the chance, but he just returned from a long trip so he's taking it easy in the mean time. Hopefully he'll chime in here with his thoughts after he gets a chance to relax.

Interestingly, the CX7 throttle doesn't act like the SPEED3 throttle in that it isn't a limitation. The throttle was wide open when we put the pedal to the floor, which is good. The bad news is that the turbo is being limited by something other than the wastegate and/or the throttle. The SPEED3/6 vehicles can maintain ~16psi to about 6000rpm without issue, but the CX7 had more trouble maintaining that pressure towards redline. It'll take some time for us to figure out exactly what's going on since this is the first CX7 in the country with any kind of engine management on it. So we're learning as we go.

But give me some time and I'll post up some graphs from the data logs...


Jordan

Is there a limitation or is it that the smaller turbo on the CX-7 can't maintain the boost up high?

[SuperStretch18]

Likely the smaller intake port is a limiting factor to the amount of air that can be pushed...

**waits anxiously for results**

[www.cp-e.com]

Is there a limitation or is it that the smaller turbo on the CX-7 can't maintain the boost up high?


Likely the smaller intake port is a limiting factor to the amount of air that can be pushed...

**waits anxiously for results**


As much as it pains me to say it, you guys are probably right-on in your assumptions. We were hoping that the smaller inlet wasn't causing this problem, but the more we look at the data, the more it points to that inlet as being the culprit.

So I've created two graphs here. The first graph shows the boost curve from just over the boost threshold, up to near redline. This clearly shows that the turbo runs out of breath in the upper RPM's. The second graph is more of a general graph of the most important sensors during a WOT run (I'm sorry it's a little cluttered). Timing looks great, the throttle stays wide open and the MAF has plenty of room left to play (well below the ~4.9-volt cutoff). I also graphed the wastegate operation to show that even when the wastegate is slammed shut, the turbo still can't generate enough exhaust gas to maintain the commanded boost pressure.

http://www.mustangmods.com/ims/u/535/644/176598.jpg

http://www.mustangmods.com/ims/u/535/644/176599.jpg


Either way, it's amazing to see the differences between the three cars (SPEED3, SPEED6, CX7) despite the fact that they basically have the same darn engine!


Jordan

[shadow1]

What's happening to the throttle position at the upper RPMs? I assume the throttle is floored. If so, then the ECU is doing funny stuff to the e-throttle.

[KatDiesel]

Any idea if you can offer the Plug-n-Play version? I know Josh said if the connectors were the same as MS3 it would happen........????? If not.....then then we would be out of luck. And what did the A/F ratio look like from the factory? (assuming you hooked up a wideband)? Thanks for sharing.

[BadakVT]

Sorry I kept you guys waiting, I've been swamped at work....
Anyway, I would like to thank CPE and the crew for doing all of this for the CX-7 community. CPE handled everything professionally and I received my car back on time w/o any complications.

Ok now let's talk about the Standback itself... Mine is installed under the steering column and it's completely hidden. However, you can easily access it by popping the plastic cover under the steering wheel. It has an USB interface so you can easily plug it onto your laptop. There are a lot of things you can do with this device. Honestly, I'm not really familiar with all of the adjustable settings so maybe Jordan could chime in and help me out here.

Driving Impression:
1) No check engine light!
2) Drives just like a stock car, there's no drivability issues at all.
3) Considerable gain especially in the mid-range between 3000-5000 RPM. The car just accelerates faster than before.
4) Unfortunately, just as Jordan said, the top end is still pretty much flat. Again this is probably because of the smaller inlet port so there's nothing much we can do about this...

Overall, I think this mod is well worth the price, especially if you're planning to add additional mods later on. Jordan did say something about downpipe and exhaust are definitely possible as long as there's demand for them.
Also, we didn;t have time to dyno tune the car yet and I'll probably wait till I get more mods before I do it anyway. As for now, the boost is set at 16 psi which is just a little bit higher than stock. I'm not sure what other modifications were programmed in the Standback but the car is definitely pulling harder than before. If I have the time maybe I'll dyno it so we can compare some numbers but I can't promise anything for now. I will get some pics uploaded ASAP!

[CX-7owner]

Sorry I kept you guys waiting, I've been swamped at work....
Anyway, I would like to thank CPE and the crew for doing all of this for the CX-7 community. CPE handled everything professionally and I received my car back on time w/o any complications.

Ok now let's talk about the Standback itself... Mine is installed under the steering column and it's completely hidden. However, you can easily access it by popping the plastic cover under the steering wheel. It has an USB interface so you can easily plug it onto your laptop. There are a lot of things you can do with this device. Honestly, I'm not really familiar with all of the adjustable settings so maybe Jordan could chime in and help me out here.

Driving Impression:
1) No check engine light!
2) Drives just like a stock car, there's no drivability issues at all.
3) Considerable gain especially in the mid-range between 3000-5000 RPM. The car just accelerates faster than before.
4) Unfortunately, just as Jordan said, the top end is still pretty much flat. Again this is probably because of the smaller inlet port so there's nothing much we can do about this...

Overall, I think this mod is well worth the price, especially if you're planning to add additional mods later on. Jordan did say something about downpipe and exhaust are definitely possible as long as there's demand for them.
Also, we didn;t have time to dyno tune the car yet and I'll probably wait till I get more mods before I do it anyway. As for now, the boost is set at 16 psi which is just a little bit higher than stock. I'm not sure what other modifications were programmed in the Standback but the car is definitely pulling harder than before. If I have the time maybe I'll dyno it so we can compare some numbers but I can't promise anything for now. I will get some pics uploaded ASAP!
Can't WAIT for them to release it!!!

[jestermsp]

deffinatly need to see a hp/tq dyno graph!

[jestermsp]

next thing is should a ms3 turbo not bolt right on to solve the top end issue?

[Mazda3]

next thing is should a ms3 turbo not bolt right on to solve the top end issue?

Yes, but it would probably create a bottom end issue. The CX-7 is heavier and has an automatic which is why they went with the smaller turbo to begin with.

[benben84]

Yes, but it would probably create a bottom end issue. The CX-7 is heavier and has an automatic which is why they went with the smaller turbo to begin with.
We just can't win... The CX-7 should be available in the U.S. with a 6-speed manual, this would make us performance guys a little happier!!

[Mazda3]

We just can't win... The CX-7 should be available in the U.S. with a 6-speed manual, this would make us performance guys a little happier!!

If the wife could or would drive standard I would have bought a Mazdaspeed 6. I love this CX-7, but definately would be driving the Speed 6 if I could.

With the proper adjustments to A/F, timing, boost, shift points, and shift crispness there are still some decent gains to be had here. I'm confident CPE will get us the best combination within the current set-up.

[lisevolution]

I hear you on the MS6... I would definitely be driving one if my gf didn't already own a 6s

[www.cp-e.com]

Any idea if you can offer the Plug-n-Play version? I know Josh said if the connectors were the same as MS3 it would happen........????? If not.....then then we would be out of luck. And what did the A/F ratio look like from the factory? (assuming you hooked up a wideband)? Thanks for sharing.


Yup, PnP is in the works (headbang)

After taking a close look at the connectors in the CX7, they are in fact identical to the connectors in the SPEED3. We're in the process of having the MS3 connectors reverse engineered, but I'm not sure when we might actually have connectors to use. We should have a better idea of the timetable shortly.

We unfortunately did not have a chance to hook a wideband up to the car. We had three different projects happening at once last weekend, so our time was very limited. However, we would like to get Mike and his CX7 to the dyno sometime soon so we can get some numbers, and then we'll have access to a tailpipe wideband. If the CX7 is anything like the SPEED3/6, it'll run pig rich after about 4000rpm.


next thing is should a ms3 turbo not bolt right on to solve the top end issue?


Actually that's not such a bad idea. A lot of the SPEED3/6 guys are upgrading to ATP's GT turbos, so you can probably find some stock stuff pretty cheap. The only problem is that we don't know if the restriction is in the manifold or in the exhaust housing. If the restriction is in the manifold then you might consider buying an upgraded exhaust manifold. If the turbo is in fact the restriction, then buying a used MS3/6 turbo would be a great upgrade.


Yes, but it would probably create a bottom end issue. The CX-7 is heavier and has an automatic which is why they went with the smaller turbo to begin with.


Though you're right, I'd imagine that some people would compromise the loss in the low-end for a nice push in the high-end. I personally think some of these guys running the ATP turbo upgrades are crazy because it increases lag time by over 1000rpm. But that's just what some people are looking for. Different strokes I guess.

http://www.mustangmods.com/ims/u/535/644/169283.jpg

Luckily the MS3/6 engine has a pretty flat torque curve and even makes in excess of 200lb.ft. of torque before 3000rpm, which isn't too shabby. You're not going to be winning any tree stump pulling contests, but 297whp is a nice number for a stock K04.

Ideally we'd like to create a product that eliminates this boost bottleneck so you guys can really make some good power. The engine is exactly the same at the SPEED3/6, so there's no reason why there shoudln't be 300whp CX7 eating up the streets too!


Jordan

[benben84]

If the wife could or would drive standard I would have bought a Mazdaspeed 6. I love this CX-7, but definately would be driving the Speed 6 if I could.

With the proper adjustments to A/F, timing, boost, shift points, and shift crispness there are still some decent gains to be had here. I'm confident CPE will get us the best combination within the current set-up.
Well if I could convince my wife to have a car, we would be buying a white 06 STi. She doesn't want a car so the CX-7 is the way to go for us.

I would think a shift kit would help a ton with crisper shifts and a more sportier feel with the autostick. Reducing the lag at low rpm's, crisper shifts, and better gas mileage and this thing would be a very very high score in my book. It would be perfect with a manual tranny and 100hp more! haha

[S_T]

Curious if you've ever experimented w/ the stock 2 port bleeder type boost control solenoid? This sort of setup is not the best for eliminating boost taper (as I done extensive experimentation on my evo). If you have the ability to control boost control via the ecu, then moving to an interrupt 3-port type bcs would gain spool as well as help eliminate a lot of the top end taper, even more so then any mbc.

[www.cp-e.com]

Curious if you've ever experimented w/ the stock 2 port bleeder type boost control solenoid? This sort of setup is not the best for eliminating boost taper (as I done extensive experimentation on my evo). If you have the ability to control boost control via the ecu, then moving to an interrupt 3-port type bcs would gain spool as well as help eliminate a lot of the top end taper, even more so then any mbc.


The honest answer at this point is that we just don't know. All three cars (the SPEED3, 6, CX7) all have the same engines, but the turbo is restricted in some way on the CX7. It sounds like in the case of the EVO, the stock boost management left a lot to be desired because it couldn't properly control the wastegate. I don't think we have that problem in our case however, and here's why:

http://www.mustangmods.com/ims/u/535/644/176598.jpg

http://www.mustangmods.com/ims/u/535/644/176599.jpg

If you look back at these graphs, you can see that the wastegate is fully shut (250 indicates the wastegate solenoid is in the closed position) but the boost still tapers off after about 4000rpm. This tells me that the turbo doesn't have enough exhaust energy to continue spinning up, and if we could hook a turbo tach onto the shaft of the turbo, you'd probably see a drop in shaft speed despite the wastegate being totally closed. If the boost control was at fault, then you should see a corresponding increase in boost pressure when the wastegate solenoid finally does open (which would open the wastegate).

We're actually getting a SPEED6 back in our shop here shortly and we're going to look into making a new tubular exhaust manifold for all the turbo MZR equipped vehicles. We're hoping that the restriction is in the exhaust manifold on the CX7 and not in the turbo housing itself. But we're going to investigate the issue and see if we can come up with some kind of solution. I'll keep you guys posted!


Jordan

[benben84]

geez, you are making me feel dumb!! haha Good work!

[www.cp-e.com]

geez, you are making me feel dumb!! haha Good work!


Not at all my intention, but thanks for the compliment!! If there's anything that I've said above that you don't understand, please feel free to ask me about it. I'll be happy to go into more detail if you're curious about something in particular.


Jordan

[Mazda3]

You guys understand that it is a different turbo in the CX-7 right?

By the way I PMed you last week and didn't get a reply.

[HeavyH20]

I think they know, they are just trying to figure out why the boost drops so much at higher RPM's versus the MS versions. According to Mazda, "The refined area of the turbine inlet port enhances throttle response at low rpm and diminishes boost lag." Might also be the problem at higher engine revs.

[Mazdaspeedgirl]

Thank you for that bit of info. I did not know regardless of searching. How about what size the turbo is? What kind?

[shadow1]

The throttle position drops off towards redline. Assuming the pedal is floored the whole way, then the ECU is pulling back on the e-throttle. The answer may be tuning the ECU control of the throttle.

[jestermsp]

a good mbc whould not help stabilize boost at high rpm?

[shadow1]

a good mbc whould not help stabilize boost at high rpm?
A MBC is so easy to install, I'm surprised CPE or someone else hasn't tried it yet. One would need to install a good boost gauge 1st. Also, air fuel should be monitored, since I'm not certain that the fuel system will accommodate additional boost at high rpm.

[SuperStretch18]

A boost controller is not going to make an impact in this case (I don't think). If the turbo is pushing as hard as it can, but can't get enough air to maintain boost, then a boost controller isn't going to do anything (at WOT). They already said that the wastegate was fully closed as pressure began to drop. I wonder if that is the speed govener kicking in that is causing the throttle position to get funny on that graph(?).

In any case, I think that CPE has the right idea. If it winds up being the turbo inlet that is the limiting factor, I wonder if porting would be an option too...

[benben84]

I hope this gets figured out very soon! I haven't WOT'd the car for more than 5 seconds since it's still under 600 miles, but when 600 miles is up I'm gonna see what this sucker has all in it! The low rpm lag is getting annoying, more like under 2750rpms, I know its going to lag some but it really kicks!! I'm gonna take it in soon and see if it needs the flash.

[www.cp-e.com]

You guys understand that it is a different turbo in the CX-7 right?

By the way I PMed you last week and didn't get a reply.


Well, we're still trying to figure that out. We can't find much definitive literature on the CX7 turbo, so we're just going by what the magazines and press releases say, which isn't a huge help. It sounds like the turbos are in fact the same in all of the vehicles, but the inlet to the exhaust housing is restricted in some way to increase exhaust velocity at low RPM's. This is of course unless you guys know something we don't (I'm not being facetious when I say that). If you guys know where the restriction is for sure then we're all ears. But until then we need to get a CX7 in here and take it apart too find out for sure.

I just went and checked my PM's and sure enough I skipped right over your PM. So sorry about that!! I'll resopnd to that right away...


I think they know, they are just trying to figure out why the boost drops so much at higher RPM's versus the MS versions. According to Mazda, "The refined area of the turbine inlet port enhances throttle response at low rpm and diminishes boost lag." Might also be the problem at higher engine revs.


Exactly, it isn't clear yet if the turbo is different, or if the manifold is different. I think the only way we're going to know for sure is to take a CX7 apart (unfortunately).


Thank you for that bit of info. I did not know regardless of searching. How about what size the turbo is? What kind?


Apparently the three vehicles (the CX7, SPEED3, and SPEED6) all have a Hitachi-Warner modified K04. But maybe someone on this forum knows something we don't and can shed light on this subject?


The throttle position drops off towards redline. Assuming the pedal is floored the whole way, then the ECU is pulling back on the e-throttle. The answer may be tuning the ECU control of the throttle.


Actually the boost begins to taper off well before the throttle does anything weird. For instance, here's a graph of the SPEED3 when we had ours on the dyno:

http://www.mustangmods.com/ims/u/535/644/169883.jpg

If you compare this to the CX7 graph I posted, you'll see that the boost tapers off (~4250rpm) well before the throttle begins to close (~5500rpm). So you're absolutely right in that we do need to get control over the throttle. But the boost taper issue in the case of the CX7 is probably more related to the exhaust system than the throttle plate. On the SPEED3 however, the throttle is the only boost limitation.


A MBC is so easy to install, I'm surprised CPE or someone else hasn't tried it yet. One would need to install a good boost gauge 1st. Also, air fuel should be monitored, since I'm not certain that the fuel system will accommodate additional boost at high rpm.


SuperStretch18 has it right. Our Standback is a boost controller, in fact it's one of the most advanced boost controllers on the market. It uses a PID feedback loop to constantly calculate and control the deviation from your boost setpoint as opposed to a static duty cycle above or below stock. You literally just type in a boost pressure, and that's the pressure you'll get as long as the turbo can handle it. The reason why I posted the datalog of the CX7 was to show that our Standback is closing the wastegate and boost still doesn't increase. So really any boost controller you use will run into this issue unfortunately.

This all doesn't mean that there isn't anything to gain from the engine management. If the restriction is in fact in the manifold and not the turbo, then we can still turn the boost up and tune the car. We have the ability to tune the air/fuel ratio as well as the ignition timing, so even if we can't increase boost too much over stock, we still may be able to eek a decent amount of power out of this car. That is at least until we figure out what's going on with the boost issue.


Jordan

[Dalton]

I hope this gets figured out very soon! I haven't WOT'd the car for more than 5 seconds since it's still under 600 miles, but when 600 miles is up I'm gonna see what this sucker has all in it! The low rpm lag is getting annoying, more like under 2750rpms, I know its going to lag some but it really kicks!! I'm gonna take it in soon and see if it needs the flash.

Still braking the engine?
WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THIS
How To Break In Your Engine For
More Power & Less Wear ! (http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm) (boom08)

[Mazda3]

Jordan,

Check your CPE e-mail for the CX-7 info I sent.

[HeavyH20]

Hmm, maybe I will have to set aside some time on a weekend to pull the turbo and takes some pics of the inlet. I wonder if it is some type of flange/venturi that is simply madifying the inlet or if it is a wholesale change to the turbo. Something to investigate.

As for the break-in, I always followed the rule of thumb, break it in like you are going to drive it at 10, 20 or 50K. So, if you are going to drive it hard, break it in hard.

[SuperStretch18]

Jordan,

Check your CPE e-mail for the CX-7 info I sent.
Hey, how come CPE only gets the info?!?(hi)

Model number for the CX-7 turbo would be much appreciated...:)

[www.cp-e.com]

Jordan,

Check your CPE e-mail for the CX-7 info I sent.


10-4 Scott.


Hmm, maybe I will have to set aside some time on a weekend to pull the turbo and takes some pics of the inlet. I wonder if it is some type of flange/venturi that is simply madifying the inlet or if it is a wholesale change to the turbo. Something to investigate.

As for the break-in, I always followed the rule of thumb, break it in like you are going to drive it at 10, 20 or 50K. So, if you are going to drive it hard, break it in hard.


That'd be great! We've had our SPEED6 manifold off a few times and it's not a fun project. But if you do decide to take yours off one day we'd be very interested in some pictures. I don't know when we'll have time to get to it, but if you could do it for us then we'd be that much closer to a solution for you guys.

God I love the internet, hah (kiss)


Jordan

[otnielarencibia]

I am sure you have seen this video but check it out again after the 5 minute mark...maybe it can shed some light.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=786139873491896591&q=cx7+kelvin&total=1&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0
7 mins too.

[Mazda3]

I am sure you have seen this video but check it out again after the 5 minute mark...maybe it can shed some light.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=786139873491896591&q=cx7+kelvin&total=1&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0
7 mins too.

I've seen that before, but I forgot about it. Good info!!
Thanks!!(thumb)

[www.cp-e.com]

Well, with everyone's help it looks like we have a definitive answer on the turbo! According to the information Scott sent me, and the video otnielarencibia posted, it sounds like the turbo in the CX7 has a smaller A/R ratio. The theory behind the A/R ratio is explained in the video, but it greatly influences a turbocharger's operating range. So you guys would gain a fair amount of power if you guys got a hold of a used SPEED3/6 turbocharger. Since a lot of those folks are replacing their turbos with the ATP GT series units, you can probably pick them up cheap if you were to check out some messageboard classified ads.

I just wanted to thank all the people who sent info to me or posted up info here. Consider that without your help we would have spent days trying to figure out what the difference between the turbos is. So thanks to everyone! With this new information (new to us at least) we can make more educated decisions about which products we should pursue for you guys.


Jordan

[otnielarencibia]

Your welcome. Let us know any other ways we can help.

[otnielarencibia]

Like this .............
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Mazdaspeed6-Turbocharger-and-Catalytic-Converter_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33742QQihZ002 QQitemZ120135182149QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

or this one
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/mazdaspeed-6-k04-turbo_W0QQitemZ180133057154QQihZ008QQcategoryZ3374 2QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Now.....I wonder how hard it would be to change it out.

[Mazda3]

Well, with everyone's help it looks like we have a definitive answer on the turbo! According to the information Scott sent me, and the video otnielarencibia posted, it sounds like the turbo in the CX7 has a smaller A/R ratio. The theory behind the A/R ratio is explained in the video, but it greatly influences a turbocharger's operating range. So you guys would gain a fair amount of power if you guys got a hold of a used SPEED3/6 turbocharger. Since a lot of those folks are replacing their turbos with the ATP GT series units, you can probably pick them up cheap if you were to check out some messageboard classified ads.

I just wanted to thank all the people who sent info to me or posted up info here. Consider that without your help we would have spent days trying to figure out what the difference between the turbos is. So thanks to everyone! With this new information (new to us at least) we can make more educated decisions about which products we should pursue for you guys.


Jordan

I would still be interested in seeing what kind of improvements you can make within the existing set-up. I'm not intersted in changing the dailly driveability by going to a different turbo. I think you could still knock a 1/2 second of the 1/4 mile time by otimizing A/F, timing, boost, shifting, and shift points with the existing turbo.

Changing turbos takes things to a different level of modding. I would pick a different vehicle for that. I'm just looking to make the dailly drive a little more enjoyable.

[shadow1]

Still braking the engine?
WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THIS
How To Break In Your Engine For
More Power & Less Wear ! (http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm) (boom08)

In the Evo world, running the engine hard in the 1st 600 miles is known to lead to an oil burning motor. Mitsubishi really means it, when they say to keep revs under 5K for the 1st 600 miles. Now for a shop built race motor I'm sure the recommendations are different. But I for one would follow the factory recommendations for a stock motor.

[SuperStretch18]

Like this .............
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Mazdaspeed6-Turbocharger-and-Catalytic-Converter_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33742QQihZ002 QQitemZ120135182149QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

or this one
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/mazdaspeed-6-k04-turbo_W0QQitemZ180133057154QQihZ008QQcategoryZ3374 2QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Now.....I wonder how hard it would be to change it out.
That first one is Ken at Protege Garage...

[benben84]

I would still be interested in seeing what kind of improvements you can make within the existing set-up. I'm not intersted in changing the dailly driveability by going to a different turbo. I think you could still knock a 1/2 second of the 1/4 mile time by otimizing A/F, timing, boost, shifting, and shift points with the existing turbo.

Changing turbos takes things to a different level of modding. I would pick a different vehicle for that. I'm just looking to make the dailly drive a little more enjoyable.
I am in the same boat as you. I would like to keep the stock turbo and just up the performance a bit and smooth out everything. I would really like to see a change in the shifts, very slow if you ask me. Gas mileage is another plus!

[mikey1981]

so, lemme see if i got all this info straight, the drop off in power/revs/turbo is due to the turbo unit that is in the cx-7 more or less. its not so much a problem with other systems in the car....i remember someone posting that there was a TSB out having to do with getting higher RPM out of the engine (or something related to that fact) which was a seperate issue from the hesitation TSB

[www.cp-e.com]

I would still be interested in seeing what kind of improvements you can make within the existing set-up. I'm not intersted in changing the dailly driveability by going to a different turbo. I think you could still knock a 1/2 second of the 1/4 mile time by otimizing A/F, timing, boost, shifting, and shift points with the existing turbo.

Changing turbos takes things to a different level of modding. I would pick a different vehicle for that. I'm just looking to make the dailly drive a little more enjoyable.


I am in the same boat as you. I would like to keep the stock turbo and just up the performance a bit and smooth out everything. I would really like to see a change in the shifts, very slow if you ask me. Gas mileage is another plus!


Well thanks a lot for your input guys, this is exactly what I'm looking for. We need to know if you guys would consider a turbo swap, and it looks like that's a little more headache than you guys are willing to endure, which is fine. Now that we know this we can concentrate on optimizing the stock turbo setup.

We still have to dyno tune BadakVT's (Mike) car, so we still may gain a good amount of power over the stock tune. Mike said that the car feels stronger with just the boost control enabled at 16psi, but we still need to tweak the timing and air/fuel. So we're going to try to get him on a dyno soon.


Jordan

[otnielarencibia]

Soon please.....Thanks guys!

[Mazda3]

Well thanks a lot for your input guys, this is exactly what I'm looking for. We need to know if you guys would consider a turbo swap, and it looks like that's a little more headache than you guys are willing to endure, which is fine. Now that we know this we can concentrate on optimizing the stock turbo setup.

We still have to dyno tune BadakVT's (Mike) car, so we still may gain a good amount of power over the stock tune. Mike said that the car feels stronger with just the boost control enabled at 16psi, but we still need to tweak the timing and air/fuel. So we're going to try to get him on a dyno soon.


Jordan

Don't forget the shifting and shift points!!! :D

The tranny needs to shift at a lower RPM under WOT and a little crisper wouldn't hurt either. :)

[www.cp-e.com]

Don't forget the shifting and shift points!!! :D

The tranny needs to shift at a lower RPM under WOT and a little crisper wouldn't hurt either. :)


Hmmm, we'd be happy to look into that, but the Standback unfortunately won't be able to make those changes to the transmission. Because the Standback is an interceptor type tuner, it can only adjust incoming sensor signals, like the MAF, MAP, or crankshaft position sensor, etc. So in order to change the firmness or timing of the shifts, we would probably have to look at an optimized valve body, or 'hard parts' in other words. We made a similar product for the Mazda 6S and 6i community, and if that's a product that you guys would consider then we'll definitely consider making one for the CX7. I'll let the guys know that a valve body, and possibly a torque converter may interest you guys.


Jordan

[S_T]

....If you look back at these graphs, you can see that the wastegate is fully shut (250 indicates the wastegate solenoid is in the closed position) but the boost still tapers off after about 4000rpm. This tells me that the turbo doesn't have enough exhaust energy to continue spinning up, and if we could hook a turbo tach onto the shaft of the turbo, you'd probably see a drop in shaft speed despite the wastegate being totally closed. If the boost control was at fault, then you should see a corresponding increase in boost pressure when the wastegate solenoid finally does open (which would open the wastegate)....

thanks for the response and all the hard work! I am curious, the wastegate solenoid position signal you are measuring...is that basically wastegate duty cycle measured from the boost control solenoid (bcs) itself? If so, that could be an erroneous reading since that is more a function of the ECU to the bcs
signal, and again in a 2 port bleed system, even at 100% duty cycle, it usually cannot bleed enough so that the wastegate maintains shut. i do agree that they inlet (and maybe even outlet) a/r may be prohibiting the higher boost, but without inhibiting all the other restrictions (exhaust/intake/boost-wastegate control) out of the equation, it is hard to deduce how much it has effect on it. however, i am no expert on the MZR series of engines, just giving some feedback on the work i've done on Evo's. ;)

p.s. i also have access to a mustang AWD dyno here on the West Coast (San Jose) and will soon dyno (and log the boost profile) w/ some load . Might try to unbolt the exhaust temporarily as well for fun. (nailbyt)

[www.cp-e.com]

thanks for the response and all the hard work! I am curious, the wastegate solenoid position signal you are measuring...is that basically wastegate duty cycle measured from the boost control solenoid (bcs) itself? If so, that could be an erroneous reading since that is more a function of the ECU to the bcssignal, and again in a 2 port bleed system, even at 100% duty cycle, it usually cannot bleed enough so that the wastegate maintains shut. i do agree that they inlet (and maybe even outlet) a/r may be prohibiting the higher boost, but without inhibiting all the other restrictions (exhaust/intake/boost-wastegate control) out of the equation, it is hard to deduce how much it has effect on it. however, i am no expert on the MZR series of engines, just giving some feedback on the work i've done on Evo's. ;)

p.s. i also have access to a mustang AWD dyno here on the West Coast (San Jose) and will soon dyno (and log the boost profile) w/ some load . Might try to unbolt the exhaust temporarily as well for fun. (nailbyt)


Actually, that's a really great question, and I'll have to look into an answer. I believe that the wastegate duty cycle is indicated by the solenoid position, but I'll have to ask the guy who designed it to be sure. Either way, you bring up a great point.

Hey, and if you do decide to dyno that AWD CX7, let us know how it goes. We had terrible luck trying to get consistent numbers from the car, and we think it was because of the traction control system. We had no problem with the SPEED6's AWD, but the CX7 did some funny things. One run the rear tires would spin, and on the subsequent they'd stay still. Weird. But let me know if you do every get around to dynoing your ride!


Jordan

[Nutsy]

I would be very interested in this if you were able to get a better a/f tune and more power on the stock turbo... how long do you guys figure before you might have some hard numbers on the dyno and a/f?

[shadow1]

[QUOTE=S_T]thanks for the response and all the hard work! I am curious, the wastegate solenoid position signal you are measuring...is that basically wastegate duty cycle measured from the boost control solenoid (bcs) itself? If so, that could be an erroneous reading since that is more a function of the ECU to the bcs
signal, and again in a 2 port bleed system, even at 100% duty cycle, it usually cannot bleed enough so that the wastegate maintains shut. i do agree that they inlet (and maybe even outlet) a/r may be prohibiting the higher boost, but without inhibiting all the other restrictions (exhaust/intake/boost-wastegate control) out of the equation, it is hard to deduce how much it has effect on it. however, i am no expert on the MZR series of engines, just giving some feedback on the work i've done on Evo's. ;)QUOTE]

A good MBC would answer this question very simply. Plus a MBC would eliminate the bleeder system OEM setup. You can keep the wastegate shut until 15 psi is actually reached rather than trying to bleed off the boost pressure that the wastegate sees from the stock BCS. And a MBC would completely eliminate the ECU portion of this equation. If boost still drops off, then we know that it is a limitation of the turbo itself rather than any ECU trickery. Although I'm still convinced that the e-throttle being pulled by the ECU is not helping matters. You can feel this effect when you floor the CX7. The engine power drops off momentarily prior to the tranny shifting. The CX7 actually runs to 60 quicker if you DON'T floor it. At like 80-90% throttle, the CX7 ECU does not seem to pull the e-throttle prior to shifting.

[jestermsp]

werd my next project will be installing a mbc and defi boost gauge wanna see this thing taper off in person. i wonder if porting the stock turbo is an option?

[Karma_hunden]

I think this piggyback should do the most difference out of the bunch compared to the MS3s and the MS6s; seeing as how the CX-7 has the same engine but its the most regulated out of the three. I'm pretty confident to say that with a TBE (Is there a TBE for the CX-7? lol) and a good EMS tune, this SUV can hang with stock EVOs/STis....well, some fatter tires too.

[shadow1]

I think this piggyback should do the most difference out of the bunch compared to the MS3s and the MS6s; seeing as how the CX-7 has the same engine but its the most regulated out of the three. I'm pretty confident to say that with a TBE (Is there a TBE for the CX-7? lol) and a good EMS tune, this SUV can hang with stock EVOs/STis....well, some fatter tires too.

Corksport will be releasing a catless downpipe and an axleback muffler system (retains the stock midpipe/2nd cat combo). A 3900 lb SUV will likely never be able to run with 3200 lb Evos and STis. The MZR motor just doesn't make more power than a 4G63 or EJ25 respectively.

[S_T]

Shadow - any dates on release of that corksport tbe?

And i agree with you, owning both a Evo and a cx-7, they are 2 different worlds apart. I enjoy both for what they are; the cx-7 as a great daily driver and transort suv, while the evo a visceral rally bred sports sedan.

[shadow1]

Corksport supposedly made the prototypes back in May. No clue as to when they will release production parts. I emailed them back in May and they didn't give any dates. Personally, I would have preferred a catless midpipe over a catless downpipe (or a 2 piece midpipe/cat with a HFC or test pipe option). First, it will be a 10 times easier to install. And secondly, it will not trigger any CELs. However, Corksport says they will be incorporating a mechanical CEL fix in the O2 bung of the downpipe. Too bad, Mazda did not manufacture the midpipe with a separate 2nd cat like on the MS6. Then we could just install a test pipe without any fuss. But nooooo, they incorporated the 2nd cat and midpipe as one big piece.

[hectik1]

Corksport will be releasing a catless downpipe and an axleback muffler system (retains the stock midpipe/2nd cat combo). A 3900 lb SUV will likely never be able to run with 3200 lb Evos and STis. The MZR motor just doesn't make more power than a 4G63 or EJ25 respectively.Having both they are no where close to each other....but you knew that already.(flash)

[benben84]

What's up with people having both an evo and a cx-7?? I should start a new fad and own an sti and cx-7!

[shadow1]

An STi and a CX7 would be an excellent combo in the driveway!

[AWmustang]

Speed 6 and CX-7... keep it in the Mazda Family.

[Dalton]

Speed 6 and CX-7... keep it in the Mazda Family.

CX-7 and turbocharged RX-8 is even more fun (breakn)
They mach pretty nicely

111445

[shadow1]

What turbo are you running in the RX? Greddy kit?

[MadMax1]

Ill add CX-7 little modded, and a 00 Subi Imp Rs with 06 usdm wrx engine swap :D

MadMax1

[benben84]

Ill add CX-7 little modded, and a 00 Subi Imp Rs with 06 usdm wrx engine swap :D

MadMax1
Veddy Niice!!

[Dalton]

What turbo are you running in the RX? Greddy kit?

GReddy it is

[spike blue]

thats pertty nice combo well i have a nice combo too a cx-7 and g35 sedan

[S_T]

A little ot here, but the evo is hard to beat price / performance wise. There is such a plethora of aftermarket as well as community support that most things are very very cheap. Not to mention its rock solid relaible engine foundation in the 4g63 and the ease of mod installation and tuneabilty (i installed my aftermarket turbo and tuned it using free open software). Where it fails miserably is in the creature comforts such as antiquated interior design, radio, and NVH levels. That's why the cx-7 to me was a natural compliment.

[Rick's CX-7]

Well thanks a lot for your input guys, this is exactly what I'm looking for. We need to know if you guys would consider a turbo swap, and it looks like that's a little more headache than you guys are willing to endure, which is fine. Now that we know this we can concentrate on optimizing the stock turbo setup.

We still have to dyno tune BadakVT's (Mike) car, so we still may gain a good amount of power over the stock tune. Mike said that the car feels stronger with just the boost control enabled at 16psi, but we still need to tweak the timing and air/fuel. So we're going to try to get him on a dyno soon.


Jordan


Jordan,

Put me in this group too! Turbo swap might be too much....optimizing the stock set-up will be much more appealing to most of us here.

Also, check out this link http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123673527

Don't know if you know much about oil analysis, but it seems your assumption that the CX-7 might be "pig-rich" like the MS3 and MS6, is true. Those two oil reports are from my CX-7 and it's not looking good. Massive amounts of fuel being dumped "directly" into the chambers is not a good thing. Thankfully, wear doesn't look to bad. I can e-mail you the two full reports if you think it'll help!

Rick

[AWmustang]

Jordan,

Put me in this group too! Turbo swap might be too much....optimizing the stock set-up will be much more appealing to most of us here.

Also, check out this link http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123673527

Don't know if you know much about oil analysis, but it seems your assumption that the CX-7 might be "pig-rich" like the MS3 and MS6, is true. Those two oil reports are from my CX-7 and it's not looking good. Massive amounts of fuel being dumped "directly" into the chambers is not a good thing. Thankfully, wear doesn't look to bad. I can e-mail you the two full reports if you think it'll help!



Rick

No wonder we get such crappy MPG.

[jestermsp]

what is the status with this ems anywho. corksport will be releasing the exhaust soon and id love to pair em up! still lookin for dynos!

[www.cp-e.com]

Jordan,

Put me in this group too! Turbo swap might be too much....optimizing the stock set-up will be much more appealing to most of us here.

Also, check out this link http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123673527

Don't know if you know much about oil analysis, but it seems your assumption that the CX-7 might be "pig-rich" like the MS3 and MS6, is true. Those two oil reports are from my CX-7 and it's not looking good. Massive amounts of fuel being dumped "directly" into the chambers is not a good thing. Thankfully, wear doesn't look to bad. I can e-mail you the two full reports if you think it'll help!

Rick


Hey Rick, this is is actually a common issue for the MS3/MS6 as well. We have our guesses as to why Mazda tuned these cars so rich, but luckily the rich mixture is only present during wide open throttle. The Standback can lean the mixture out at WOT, which would also limit the fuel that makes its way into your the oil. At cruise however, the CX7 runs at a perfect stoich mixture of 14.7:1. When we get Mike's CX7 on the dyno we'll be able to see exactly how rich it is at WOT. But if it's anything like it's Mazda cousins, it'll be as rich as 10:1 towards redline (crazy)



And I apologize for the lack of updates lately. We've been tremendously busy here at the shop, and we're waiting for some down time before we tackle the rest of the CX7 Standback project.

We'd like to get Mike back in the shop sometime soon so that we can dyno tune his CX7 and see what kind of power we can eek out of that platform. So this CX7 project is still on our radar, but we're waiting for a little down time. I'm going to be in contact with Mike and see if we can figure out a time when everybody is available to we can start tinkering again. I'll share our timetable with everyone once I get a hold of Mike.


Jordan

[1Sleepy93]

I'll probably be one of the few considering a turbo upgrade in the future. I don't think I'd mind raising the boost threshold a few hundred rpm to gain a lot more in the upper end. Until that time though, I'd love to make the current setup perform as well as it can.

[www.cp-e.com]

I'll probably be one of the few considering a turbo upgrade in the future. I don't think I'd mind raising the boost threshold a few hundred rpm to gain a lot more in the upper end. Until that time though, I'd love to make the current setup perform as well as it can.


Excellent! I think we're going to be releasing some bolt-ons for you guys in the near future, so you'll definitely have some product choices to help maximize the performance potential of the current platform. I think we'll have some more significant updates in the next couple weeks.


Jordan

[SuperStretch18]

Excellent! I think we're going to be releasing some bolt-ons for you guys in the near future, so you'll definitely have some product choices to help maximize the performance potential of the current platform. I think we'll have some more significant updates in the next couple weeks.


Jordan

Thank you! (humpleg)

[benben84]

Excellent! I think we're going to be releasing some bolt-ons for you guys in the near future, so you'll definitely have some product choices to help maximize the performance potential of the current platform. I think we'll have some more significant updates in the next couple weeks.


Jordan

Sweet! I can't wait to see what you guys are offering for this car! I would think the turbo upgrades from the 6 and 3 would fit on this car as well, maybe just a different downpipe setup?? How restrictive is the current exhaust from the turbo back? Would a less restrictve larger diameter exhaust make better spool time on this car?

[www.cp-e.com]

Sweet! I can't wait to see what you guys are offering for this car! I would think the turbo upgrades from the 6 and 3 would fit on this car as well, maybe just a different downpipe setup?? How restrictive is the current exhaust from the turbo back? Would a less restrictve larger diameter exhaust make better spool time on this car?


We're thinking that the SPEED3/6 turbos are a great intermediate mod between the stock turbo and an aftermarket setup. They should be good for just under 300whp (compared to ~210whp stock), and are now becoming plentiful as SPEED3/6 folk are upgrading their stock stuff. If you place a want ad on one of the many SPEED3/6 forums, I'd bet that you'll easily find a stock turbo that you can swap in. The only thing is that we've never done this before personally, so we don't know what kind of hurdles one might run into during the swap.

A less restrictive exhaust system would absolutely help this turbo spool faster as it improves the pressure ratio across the turbine wheel. But the problem with the CX7 isn't so much the boost threshold. The reason I say this is because *typically* turbo lag increases with turbo size relative to the engine. So the smaller the turbo, generally the more responsive it is. In the case of the CX7, the Mazda engineers eliminated almost all the turbo lag, at the cost of top-end power. You can un-do this "design feature" by installing one of the SPEED3/6 turbos, but you will get slightly more lag, but much more top-end power.

IMHO, what we (cp-e) need to do is come up with a swap kit for you guys. In other words, you guys source a used SPEED3/6 turbo, and we supply all the parts necessary to make it work in the CX7. If the CX7 market shows the need for more performance parts, then we'll make stuff like that a reality. (rockon)


Jordan

[otnielarencibia]

I'm up for it!!

[jestermsp]

already getting the turbo!! lol

[cx7pos]

Jordon,

When will we see the Standback on the CX-7. even without a base map. I am assuming the ECU wiring from the MS3 to the CX-7 being pretty similar, if not the same. And I NEED to get my hands on a fuel/ignition solution soon.

[Rick's CX-7]

Any updates on this?

[Osidecaliguy]

NEED ANSWERS NEED ANSWERS. Anyone have an update?!?!?(shocked)

[greengoblin]

Saw this on the CP-E website. Looks like fun. Anyone running it yet?

http://www.cp-e.com/2103.html

[CX-7owner]

(stoned)is the PnP one available yet?

[CajunRacer]

Ok folks...not the response you might want but I did just have the Standback engine management system installed and I love it. Jordan took me out for a few test runs and showed me how to tweak the stats and man did that thing fly. I wasn't sure what sort of power I would really feel but I was definately not dissapointed. Thanks CP-E, you guys rock. They really hooked me up and showed me what to do with this thing...I can't wait to get a onboard wide band controller and really tweak this thing out. I wasn't so sure about the wire in process but it came out awesome and they gave me a by-pass just to be on the safe side so there is no worries of complications. If anyone lives near their show I highly recommend checking it out they have a very neat approach to things and do a hell of a job. I know this sounds like a plug but it really isn't; I have had many cars throughout the years and done many modifications and I can honestly say I wish I had met these guys years ago. I say if you guys are waiting on the PNP system...why bother this thing is sweet. When they figure out how to dyno the AWD version I have offered to be a guiena pig. If you have any questions please let me know. I am now running a stock BOV with the Cat back and Quick Pipe from CP-E and an ETS 4.5" TMIC and a K&N air filter and have plenty of power to my CX-7!