Help with mods that actually give HP gains??

[Wishmaster]

Hello all,
Just wondering... as I'm a fairly new owner of a 2002 P5 (couple months now)... I have been all over these forums looking at ways of adding a few extra horsepower... things like Catbacks, CAI, Short Rams, Headers etc. But I keep coming across people who say that they don't actually get any gains from these mods and they end up being just for show and sound.

Does anyone disagree with this?? Once you've done your mods did you gain any HP?? And do you have proof, like dyno runs or is it all in your head. Just wondering because I don't want to spend the cash and time if there are no actual gains. Thanks!

[DeadGeneration]

You can gain about 45 horsepower pretty easily with bolt ons. You just have to pick the quality products. K&N will get you more power than EBay. Exhaust is the same way. Best way is to find a person on the forums (Redneck) who has an N/A car and find out what mods he has. Ect.

[DeadGeneration]

Also, most products really are just for noise and show. To confirm what you said. A quality header will net you a good amount of power, but you will have to deal with the noise. All the modifications have trade offs. Happy modding.

[jeg0024]

Header, cat-back and CAI will result in noticable gains, no need for a dyno really. Then its next step would be cam gears and pullies and the such. The right mods, with supporting mods of course, will give you HP gains. No I dont have a dyno to prove it, but I do have my slips from the 1/4 mile:)

[jeg0024]

Also, most products really are just for noise and show. To confirm what you said. A quality header will net you a good amount of power, but you will have to deal with the noise. All the modifications have trade offs. Happy modding.

Like I said though, I CAI alone will just be noise. A header alone will help a bit but mostly be noise. A CAI paired with a header and cat-back will open up the motor on both ends and then the full potential of each will be avalible. And yes, more performance may mean more noise, its a trade off.

[shane02pro5]

I/H/E might get you 15hp but I think the most N/A power made is like 140 to the wheels. There is one college guy that has a project car with EMS cams hi compression pistons cam gears and pretty much everthing you can do and putting down almost 200hp but that a whole lot of money probably 2x what a turbo would cost.

Turbo is the only real power adder for these motors!!

Hiboost FTW 260+/- torque

(burnout)

[jeg0024]

I/H/E might get you 15hp but I think the most N/A power made is like 140 to the wheels. There is one college guy that has a project car with EMS cams hi compression pistons cam gears and pretty much everthing you can do and putting down almost 200hp but that a whole lot of money probably 2x what a turbo would cost.

Turbo is the only real power adder for these motors!!

Hiboost FTW 260+/- torque

(burnout)

+1:)

[ProtoType5]

The gains off mods are definite and proven....Piece by piece they are small and sometimes insignificant, but combined together they make real and noticable improvements in power and handling. As far as N/A goes...Intake alone= no real gains, but add that into a total Intake, Header, Exhaust combo, and it does make a real difference. Handling is more important in my opinion, but you need a little more power to enjoy it....

The N/A list in a non sensical order of cost vs. difficulty vs. benefits....

Header
MP3 ECU
Cat-Back
Mid-Pipe
Upgraded Camshafts
Intake
Lightweight Crank Pully
Flywheel

Redneck has done most of the bolt on mods...outside the engine block, and runs around 120 to the wheels...which is noticable...

[rednecks_r_us]

Wow! I didn't know so many people actually paid attention to my car.

I'm flattered. Thanks

Anyway, on topic.

If y ou are looking for power the best way to get it is a turbo.

but being a rebel I wanted to stay N/A. Twilightprotege is the man when it comes to N/A horsepower. I look up to his work.

The stock P5 is on average around 95 wheel horse power.

I have a INJEN CAI, NOLOGY plug wires, Ractive header that has been ceramic coated by jet-hot, MAM highflow catted midpipe, Magnaflow cat back exhaust, Fidanza light weight flywheel, light weight 5ZIGEN rims and a MP3 ECU.

With all that I'm at 118.38 wheel horse power.

118
-95
____
23 WHP gain.


Any math majors on here?

If 95 WHP = 130 crank HP. What is the crank HP of 118.38?

http://azmcadmin.web.aplus.net/vb/photopost/data/507/bill_russell.jpg

[thrasher]

You can gain about 45 horsepower pretty easily with bolt ons. You just have to pick the quality products. K&N will get you more power than EBay. Exhaust is the same way. Best way is to find a person on the forums (Redneck) who has an N/A car and find out what mods he has. Ect.


45 horse? You're kidding yourself. There is no way you can get 50% more power with bolt-ons. Even if it does say K&N on the sticker.

(Everyone knows that stickers only add HP to a Honda...)

[Wishmaster]

Thanks guys for all the advice... and i don't mind some noise, I'd like some growl to go along with my mods. I'll probably stick with the simple mods like CAI, header and catback... I guess I could search around the forum but anyone have any advice on which header and catback give good gains but don't sound too loud... my wife has to drive this car daily to work (elementary school teacher!), she doesn't mind some growl and feedback but again not too much... any advice??

[jomoyo069]

wat times do u run in the 1/4 jeg and redneck?

[ProtoType5]

K&N or AEM intake...Cold or Short whatever floats yur boat
Thunder Header....Cheap and Well made
Racing Beat Cat-Back...Probably the quietest...

I ran the stock exhaust with the K&N/OBX header/MAM High-flow midpipe for a while and didn't really notice much gain switching the cat-back..

[jeg0024]

wat times do u run in the 1/4 jeg and redneck?

...With my AT...17.1sec@80MPH last time out, and thats without weight redux. Not all that much to brag about but considering that a stock AT runs around a 21sec...Its fine with me.

[JOMO]

When I get my next protege5/protege ( week or two hopefully)Im doing the same as last time Na wise. Intake,obx header, headerback exhaust. Very noticeable gains with the header back exhaust compaired to the regular catback. I'll go with the protege garage IM also this time though. Dont know about the mp3 ecu, want to stick with regular gas this time around.

[DeadGeneration]

45 horse? You're kidding yourself. There is no way you can get 50% more power with bolt-ons. Even if it does say K&N on the sticker.

(Everyone knows that stickers only add HP to a Honda...)

No one believes me. Evar.

http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3055679&postcount=33

[ctt 1982]

45 extra horses is definitely obtainable, just not easily.

[ProtoType5]

MP3 ECU is a great gain...smooth acceleration and a nice bump up in overall power...Just $45.00 tanks are getting really hard to live with...

[FunkyBuddha]

all my mods are in my sig...116whp/120tq

I haven't dyno'd with cam gears set to -3 and the new axle back.

[protojason]

161.99 crank horsepower by my math. (not a math major though, figure it's just ratios)

95 118.38
130 = x
95x = 15389.4

x= 161.99

never bragged about my math though...

Jason




Wow! I didn't know so many people actually paid attention to my car.

I'm flattered. Thanks

Anyway, on topic.

If y ou are looking for power the best way to get it is a turbo.

but being a rebel I wanted to stay N/A. Twilightprotege is the man when it comes to N/A horsepower. I look up to his work.

The stock P5 is on average around 95 wheel horse power.

I have a INJEN CAI, NOLOGY plug wires, Ractive header that has been ceramic coated by jet-hot, MAM highflow catted midpipe, Magnaflow cat back exhaust, Fidanza light weight flywheel, light weight 5ZIGEN rims and a MP3 ECU.

With all that I'm at 118.38 wheel horse power.

118
-95
____
23 WHP gain.


Any math majors on here?

If 95 WHP = 130 crank HP. What is the crank HP of 118.38?

http://azmcadmin.web.aplus.net/vb/photopost/data/507/bill_russell.jpg

[gimpo2]

No one believes me. Evar.

http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3055679&postcount=33
twilght protege has more than just bolt ons. he's got good tuning on a microtech? i forget. and you know once you start cutting wires and soldering you're not longer bolting things on.

notice Redneck's dyno sheets. his A/F past 3k is pretty rich for N/A with the mp3 ecu. If he could just lean that out he'd see plenty gains. thrown in even more aggresssive timing up top.... (inout)

[StealthWyvern]

twilght protege has more than just bolt ons. he's got good tuning on a microtech? i forget. and you know once you start cutting wires and soldering you're not longer bolting things on.

notice Redneck's dyno sheets. his A/F past 3k is pretty rich for N/A with the mp3 ecu. If he could just lean that out he'd see plenty gains. thrown in even more aggresssive timing up top.... (inout)

+1

[rednecks_r_us]

161.99 crank horsepower by my math. (not a math major though, figure it's just ratios)

95 118.38
130 = x
95x = 15389.4

x= 161.99

never bragged about my math though...

Jason


Thank you.


I have thought about an MPI to get more HP but am short on funds now. :D

[silverpro5]

When I get my next protege5/protege ( week or two hopefully)Im doing the same as last time Na wise. Intake,obx header, headerback exhaust. Very noticeable gains with the header back exhaust compaired to the regular catback. I'll go with the protege garage IM also this time though. Dont know about the mp3 ecu, want to stick with regular gas this time around.

I was told that the protegegarage IM was a single runner design that would work best in FI applications, and that the stock IM (ported and polished) was the best option if you want to stay NA.

http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123667622

[NMMotorsport]

i dont know wether i have different stuff on my uk car. but over here people have dynoed at 155 with

injen
obx
nology
and hks cat back

and thats without an ecu reset. im pretty confident my setup witch will be the same apart from the racing beat catback instead of the hks, will be around that figure if not a bit more.

[DeadGeneration]

twilght protege has more than just bolt ons. he's got good tuning on a microtech? i forget. and you know once you start cutting wires and soldering you're not longer bolting things on.

notice Redneck's dyno sheets. his A/F past 3k is pretty rich for N/A with the mp3 ecu. If he could just lean that out he'd see plenty gains. thrown in even more aggresssive timing up top.... (inout)

I know what he has. The original poster wasn't specifically looking for what he could do with just a wrench. He was asking about N/A modifications. Engine management is outside of the block so I consider that fairly bolt-on-ish

Cutting and soldering is a basic skill. Tuning the stand alone ECU/ECM is more complicated, but not beyond DIY.

[jamesk]

when i put my peformance parts in my car, i actually feel that the car is pretty fast. it pulls hard and everybody that i drive around always has a comment about my car. im pretty happy with the power output. my upgrades are.
obx headers
unorthodox udp
awr side inserts
mp3 ecu
megan catback
aem sri

im soom going to put a thermal spacer in my intake manifold, and take vtcs out. i heard that is going to be a good added gain as well. after that, i think ill be more than happy with a car that is decently fast that gets over 30 miles to the gallon.

[Woody54]

i've been looking at the MP3 ECU for a while now, with the mod's that i have already... see sig, do you think that i would notice a gain? and yes gas sucks and all but if i was really worried about that i would have gotten a hybrid.

soon to add motor mounts... by the way(nana)

[silverpro5]

I would love that ecu as well, lmk if you find one for me lol

[jomoyo069]

how much hp you lookin at gaining from the thermal spacer and vtcs removal?

[jomoyo069]

I would love that ecu as well, lmk if you find one for me lol
someone on this forum can reflash the ecu for u.. i dont remember who it is

[ProtoType5]

The reflash in on the "other" forum......and yes you can reflash a regular ECU to the MP3 maps, but you absolutely have to have a manual tranny...and yes the gains are noticible and worth the gas expenses....The one thing I've noticed after the MP3 switch is running even more rich than before....I really wish there was a simple AFC out there that would work....

[jamesk]

how much hp you lookin at gaining from the thermal spacer and vtcs removal?

im thinking 8whp? its the help with everythiing else i have, not 8 whp alone. if i didnt have all the other stuff maybe 5whp?

[BKJT05]

I/H/E might get you 15hp but I think the most N/A power made is like 140 to the wheels. There is one college guy that has a project car with EMS cams hi compression pistons cam gears and pretty much everthing you can do and putting down almost 200hp but that a whole lot of money probably 2x what a turbo would cost.

Turbo is the only real power adder for these motors!!

Hiboost FTW 260+/- torque

(burnout)


that engine bay is so sweet, as soon as i get my current bills paid off, im taking out a loan and buying the hiboost kit and building my block.

[Blake]

Terbow FTW

[shane02pro5]

Thanks! You won't regret the investment one bit, but you will also need performance clutch to go along with it.

Warning it is an addiction and it won't stop there!!!



that engine bay is so sweet, as soon as i get my current bills paid off, im taking out a loan and buying the hiboost kit and building my block.

[Mike R]

Header and VTCS removal/intake porting are the best bang for the buck. Injen CAI was just a noisemaker, same with the HKS Hiper. Both did look nice though. They helped out a very very small amount at high rpm. Car still pulls very well to rev limiter.

[Wishmaster]

I've heard a number of people mention the VTCS removal helps and number of people who say it doesn't or only offers a tiny increase, so most likey an "in your head increase" and decrease in the future reliablity, felxibility and warm up ability of the car. Does anyone have info on the real deal with VTCS and/or dyno maps proving mods to it?

I'm a realist and will not bother doing anything to my car unless there are proven on paper results. I only want to mod items which don't actually change the way the car was designed to work. So far for simple DIY and bolt on's for an automatic... if I go with a combo of a CAI, Header and Catback (still want to keep one cat, which I guess kinda negates what I said above (shady) )... I am guarenteed of some decent results for some fairly easy to do mods with comparatively small cost ($1000 give or take).

So I think I've got enough info and am able to research which CAI, Header, Catback I should opt for in other areas of this forum... so thinkin this is pretty much done??

[DeadGeneration]

Also when you sell the car, if you start removing VTCS and changing under drive pullys your may or may not change them back to stock but its alot harder than taking an intake off and putting the stock back on.

[ProtoType5]

The Catted Midpipes from various vendors also is a noticble increase over the stock second cat....and you'll keep some emissions cleaning...

I read in Tuner, when they compared a High flow midpipe vs. a Test Pipe, that the difference on an NA application was around 1whp...That's all...

[Wishmaster]

The Catted Midpipes from various vendors also is a noticble increase over the stock second cat....and you'll keep some emissions cleaning...

I read in Tuner, when they compared a High flow midpipe vs. a Test Pipe, that the difference on an NA application was around 1whp...That's all...

Hmmm, good to know... but I think I'd still like to get rid of the first cat because of the gains from a full header and mid pipe. And I think I could put the stock back in fairly easily if it came to that. But... did they happen to mention how much of a difference it was if you just replaced the mid-pipe vs. a full header and mid-pipe? Because if the difference is small enough, it would save me alot of money and pain to just do a mid-pipe and a cat-back. I could also stay enviromentaly freindly. Another reason I ask is I saw somewhere on these forums someone saying that the stock header and first cat aren't all that bad and fairly free flowing, but it's the super crappy mid-pipe that chokes everything off... anyone know about this or tried both and have some input??

[DeadGeneration]

Are you saying you don't want to spend alot of time, effort, money, and reliability in mods with minimal gains? I understand completely. Unfortunatly, that's exactly what it means to modify a P5.

[Wishmaster]

Are you saying you don't want to spend alot of time, effort, money, and reliability in mods with minimal gains? I understand completely. Unfortunatly, that's exactly what it means to modify a P5.


Haha, I know I'll have to give somewhere, guess I'm just trying to ensure that what I'm buying is going to give me a good increase and that If I don't have to do as much to get a similar increase then I'm all for it... just trying to feel out all options. Thanks for the help!

[pass the peas]

Re: header- don't forget an added benefit is weight reduction. Generally speaking, tube headers are always lighter than cast iron exhaust manifolds. Boosting your power/weight ratio is like getting free horsepower!

[DeadGeneration]

Definatly, the stock header is OMG a beast of metal

[noob2protege5]

I would love that ecu as well, lmk if you find one for me lol

http://www.mazda3club.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43937&pp=15&highlight=ecu+mp3

[i12drivemyMP5]

Haha, I know I'll have to give somewhere, guess I'm just trying to ensure that what I'm buying is going to give me a good increase and that If I don't have to do as much to get a similar increase then I'm all for it... just trying to feel out all options. Thanks for the help!Mine is sport auto. IMO, one of the best things you can do with auto for reliability is get a transmission oil cooler & go with synthetic fluid flush/fill. If you go with the header it'll take a bit of low end torque but give upper end performance so get a UDP to get the low back. The VTCS removal is less moving clattery intake blocking nonsense especially in a warm to mild climate so getting rid of it & the porting/polishing is a free bonanza that helps it breathe better, especially with the other things.***edit***never had coldstart issues with no VTCS down past freezing the few times a year it gets that way here in TX.

[silverpro5]

http://www.mazda3club.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43937&pp=15&highlight=ecu+mp3

thanks

[Mike R]

No issues with my car and cold starts with the VTCS removal, idling or anything. Even in the winter. Though I always let my car run for at least 30 seconds before driving. Power gain isn't anything spectacular, like any mod (except a turbo)

It was a worthwhile mod for me. I spent a few bucks, got a spare intake, did the mod, installed it, and sold my stock intake. Took maybe two hours, and make the second biggest performance improvement to my car. Header was the biggest. That's why they are the only 2 performance mods left on my car.

[jamesk]

I've heard a number of people mention the VTCS removal helps and number of people who say it doesn't or only offers a tiny increase, so most likey an "in your head increase" and decrease in the future reliablity, felxibility and warm up ability of the car. Does anyone have info on the real deal with VTCS and/or dyno maps proving mods to it?

I'm a realist and will not bother doing anything to my car unless there are proven on paper results. I only want to mod items which don't actually change the way the car was designed to work. So far for simple DIY and bolt on's for an automatic... if I go with a combo of a CAI, Header and Catback (still want to keep one cat, which I guess kinda negates what I said above (shady) )... I am guarenteed of some decent results for some fairly easy to do mods with comparatively small cost ($1000 give or take).

So I think I've got enough info and am able to research which CAI, Header, Catback I should opt for in other areas of this forum... so thinkin this is pretty much done??

your wrong with the reliability part. the mp3 ecu was designed for NOT using vtcs. the ecu knows how to warm up the car properly without vtcs.

CAI, Headers, catbacks, midpipes are also all boltons that you are talking about. all they do is free up the engines breathing capabilities. your going to get a small gains including better gas mileage and less stress on the engines. the point of a bolt on is to add a small amount of power to the engine without affecting the reliability of the car.

your asking for the best of both worlds, which you cant have. either you want small power with reliability (NA bolt ons), or alot of power with little reliability (turbo kit)

[PimpSmurf]

i wish i could get the best of both worlds... i think i'm goin the bolt-on path though... i want a car that will be pretty savage and still be able to start up every day without problems... i want a car that i will be able to keep without putting tons of money into... so i'm definately not going turbo because there are way too many reliability issues related to them... i don't need my car to haul a** that badly... but at the same time there is no way i am getting pushed around by a civic DX with no exaust

well i hope we at least kinda helped you decide what you wanted for your car... it's all a matter of preference though

[jamesk]

well, dont get me wrong. bolt ons do give you a good gain. my car pulls hard, and im not complaining. a turbo kit will give you power for like a 13 second car. my car is in the 15's. im lovin it.

[Wishmaster]

your wrong with the reliability part. the mp3 ecu was designed for NOT using vtcs. the ecu knows how to warm up the car properly without vtcs.

CAI, Headers, catbacks, midpipes are also all boltons that you are talking about. all they do is free up the engines breathing capabilities. your going to get a small gains including better gas mileage and less stress on the engines. the point of a bolt on is to add a small amount of power to the engine without affecting the reliability of the car.

your asking for the best of both worlds, which you cant have. either you want small power with reliability (NA bolt ons), or alot of power with little reliability (turbo kit)


Thanks for the info... I have an auto so can't do the MP3 ECU mod.

[Wishmaster]

Mine is sport auto. IMO, one of the best things you can do with auto for reliability is get a transmission oil cooler & go with synthetic fluid flush/fill. If you go with the header it'll take a bit of low end torque but give upper end performance so get a UDP to get the low back. The VTCS removal is less moving clattery intake blocking nonsense especially in a warm to mild climate so getting rid of it & the porting/polishing is a free bonanza that helps it breathe better, especially with the other things.***edit***never had coldstart issues with no VTCS down past freezing the few times a year it gets that way here in TX.


What is a "UDP"?

[jeg0024]

What is a "UDP"?

UnderDrive Pully

[Akaveli]

http://www.mazda3club.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43937&pp=15&highlight=ecu+mp3

ThreadJack- am I the only one who notice that this link actually worked?! Has this site been unbanned?! (shrug)

[xelderx]

A whole thread about N/A bolt on mods and I don't get mentioned...

Screw you guys...I'm leaving. Headwork is a bolt on.

[Salmon_Rob]

indeed. especially if you know ppl in north carolina

[iliveonnitro]

So what worthwhile mods will not make my car louder? How much will gas mileage be affected?

[LordWorm]

So what worthwhile mods will not make my car louder? How much will gas mileage be affected?
after market ECU wont increase noise at all - unless you lift the rev limit to 7k ;)
then no matter the exhaust, it'll scream like a stuck pig :)

Mileage - generally speaking, more power means less need to wring the cars neck...

I have gained significant mileage with my car, and i know twilightprotege has added some insane amount of time between fill ups with all his gear..
but its all relative to how often, and how much you press the gas pedal :)

[Woody54]

i've been checking the FS threads and MP3 ecu's rarely come up for sale. where is the best/cheapest place to obtain one? (either new or used, cause i'm not totally sold on the flashing thing)

[ProtoType5]

Personally, I took a shot in the dark and located a few with Partsfinder.com...which is a salvage website....Most of the replies were bogus and automatic, but got a couple that actually had the MP3 ECU...Cost about $300, but got it in 2 days....Search by using the actual part numbers and any of the three production runs will work in any manual 3rd Gen Proto...

[PimpSmurf]

Personally, I took a shot in the dark and located a few with Partsfinder.com...which is a salvage website....Most of the replies were bogus and automatic, but got a couple that actually had the MP3 ECU...Cost about $300, but got it in 2 days....Search by using the actual part numbers and any of the three production runs will work in any manual 3rd Gen Proto...

any chance you still have the part numbers you used handy?... if not i'm sure it's on here some place

[iliveonnitro]

$300 is a lot to spend on just an ECU...hell my old car got a full custom tune/emission codes erased/raised shift points/etc for that much.

In an otherwise stock car, what are the advantages of putting in an MP3 ECU?

[ProtoType5]

2001 Mazda Protege

MP3/ECU

Part numbers

FS9N-1881
FS9N-1881B
FS9N-1881C

**Advantages are advanced timing using high octane fuel causing a bump in horsepower....Most significant difference is a smoothing of the power band, which creates a seamless delivery of power...unlike the stock P5 ECU which has terrible peaks and valleys in the curve....