Who wants dibs on the XEDE PnP System?

[SAVAGE70]

Hey fellow Speed3ers whats up? Just checking to see who wants dibs on the XEDE PnP system. I got first dibs.

[SharkDiver]

MeMeMeMeMe(direct)

[dread]

I will wait for cobb or cpe, thanks anyway. The xede can't control throttle and the throttle is all over the place on the speed 3.

[speed3shon]

3-4 months makes me sad :(

i guess its ok, because i still dont pick up the car til next monday...

*EDIT* that means add me to the list, unless other options come out within that time frame... ;)

[uncletime]

is there a time line of when it could be available? how much we lookin at?

[boosted3]

Dread,
what was the point of your post? To point out that XEDE does not address throttle issues?

I'm interested.

[CaSHMeRe]

XEDE FTL

Cobb for THE WIN !!!!! AccessPort 110% !!!

[speed3shon]

uhhh, whats the timeline on the cobb ap?

[matsuda]

XEDE FTL

Cobb for THE WIN !!!!! AccessPort 110% !!!
Yes, Cobb for the win.*

* As long as your engine is stock or you use their aftermarket tuning parts.

[CaSHMeRe]

Yes, Cobb for the win.*

* As long as your engine is stock or you use their aftermarket tuning parts.

partly true ... i will give you that much ...

however, as far as Driveability and Reliability and User Friendlieness, Cobb is the forsure way too go ....

[CaSHMeRe]

uhhh, whats the timeline on the cobb ap?

timeline... looking at late may, early june release. soon to follow, are the parts... i think the ap will be the first to be released

[Captain KRM P5]

partly true ... i will give you that much ...

however, as far as Driveability and Reliability and User Friendlieness, Cobb is the forsure way too go ....

yeah a PnP XEDE is so difficult to install and tune and makes the car undrivable! (bicker)

if you drive a speed3 or speed6 with the XEDE on it and take a look at the software, you'll find that reliability is there, drivability is definetely there and user friendlieness is not a problem either. Cobb is user friendly in the manner that out of the box you can't do your own tuning, unless you drop a few more dollars ($200) into it.

I will wait for cobb or cpe, thanks anyway. The xede can't control throttle and the throttle is all over the place on the speed 3.

not to rain on your parade, but CP-E has not had success controlling the throttle, only monitoring it. Cobb has not said they can control the throttle plate either according to my last chat with them.

this thread was started to see who would be interested in a PnP XEDE. i don't mind people bringing up other systems, but making unqualified or incorrect statements without any expertise to back it up is just slinging mud.

[JimmyMac]

Question, I already have the XEDE installed (bought from you guys). Can I purchase the harness separate? If so, I'd like to order one as soon as you get them in. Thanks...

[Captain KRM P5]

Question, I already have the XEDE installed (bought from you guys). Can I purchase the harness separate? If so, I'd like to order one as soon as you get them in. Thanks...

hey good to hear from you :) once they are in we/BEGi will have the harnesses available to upgrade for prior customers. and i will say this now since i have already been asked - we will not be selling the harnesses on thier own sans XEDE.

[RPI-Speed3]

not to rain on your parade, but CP-E has not had success controlling the throttle, only monitoring it. Cobb has not said they can control the throttle plate either according to my last chat with them.

this thread was started to see who would be interested in a PnP XEDE. i don't mind people bringing up other systems, but making unqualified or incorrect statements without any expertise to back it up is just slinging mud.

How exactly was dread slinging mud? He clearly stated the XEDE doesn't control throttle (which is true right? that would not constitute slinging mud correct?). He then says he will wait for Cobb or CP-E. Clearly at this point it is more likely that Cobb or CP-E will be able to control throttle than XEDE since the XEDE is already out and these products are still in development. Dread saying he will wait just means he (and myself and many others for that matter) want something that will control throttle. How is that slinging mud? I know you sell XEDE and the others are competitors, but lets not squash good informative conversation about all products in an effort to educate.

[Captain KRM P5]

How exactly was dread slinging mud? He clearly stated the XEDE doesn't control throttle (which is true right? that would not constitute slinging mud correct?). He then says he will wait for Cobb or CP-E. Clearly at this point it is more likely that Cobb or CP-E will be able to control throttle than XEDE since the XEDE is already out and these products are still in development. Dread saying he will wait just means he (and myself and many others for that matter) want something that will control throttle. How is that slinging mud? I know you sell XEDE and the others are competitors, but lets not squash good informative conversation about all products in an effort to educate.

ok let me clarify then. when i said "slinging mud", i meant more in reference to the remarks Cashmere made that the XEDE offers drivability that is not as good, that it is not reliable, that it is not as capable and it is not user friendly. those remarks aren't even subjective, they're baseless at best. if the system wasn't user friendly, made the car drive like shit and couldn't hold itself together i wouldn't sell it and wouldn't recommend anyone spending a grand on it. i was not so much referring to dread's remarks. i do disagree based on my own tuning experience with these engines that "throttle is all over the place" though.

CP-E posted on another forum now that the system is out that PnP is not going to happen and throttle plate can only be monitored at this point. If any of that's changed I haven't read it. I have nothing against Cobb and have dealt with thier stuff in the past on Subarus for a few of my buddies who own WRXs and STis. I deal with a few companies that sell parts to Cobb and have accounts with warehouses that sell Cobb. if the product proves itself then I'm setup to market it. my doubts with that particular system lie in the fact that they promised a miata system and it never materialized for one reason or another, and that the mazda ECU has been historically difficult (read: impossible) to crack. if anyone can crack it, it will be Cobb i know it. until its out and i know it works, i won't list it on my website and give anyone false hopes.

i'm not trying to squash competitive discussion, i'm trying to clear up the fallacies and supposition being tossed about. if defending a product i sell and know works well against criticisms that aren't true qualifies as "squashing" then so be it. i'll offer and stand behind any system i believe in regardless of who makes it.

now i'll try and be impartial in the respect of education;

yes, there will be certain advantages each system posesses. CP-E's will likely at some point control throttle. XEDE will be plug and play. Cobb's will flash the stock ECU. Let's not forget that if you want to be able to tune an Accessport on your own, the price jumps to a point close to XEDE. In my mind, ideally, the perfect system for this community would be a plug and play unit that controls throttle and still retains a low price tag. The CP-E system alters fuel pressure whereas the XEDE intercepts and alters MAF signals to control fuel. If you go strictly by feature set and function side by side, the XEDE shows itself to be a more capable unit than the Cobb. However, what that may mean to the end user is entirely something else.

There is no holy grail and I am not trying nor putting myself into a position to say there is one. What irks me is this - this thread was started to see who would be interested in getting a PnP XEDE. honestly that helps me because if there is no interest then i know not to waste my time or money. but what irks me is that you have people going out of thier way to jump in the thread with snide remarks. i don't go into threads about other forms of engine management and poo poo anyone else's work even if i feel have criticisms founded in fact or experience. besides, if i did do that, it would only invite people to call me biased :)

if you don't want the system, thats cool, i could care less. the XEDE will sell itself or fail based on its own merits. i can remind people all day long that the system put a stock turbo mazdaspeed6 with a crush bent homemade catback exhaust, stock throttle plate control and stock emissions gear into the 12s with over 300lb/ft of torque while retaining stock and smooth drivability and there will still be naysayers, i know thats reality on the 'net. i'm installing and tuning customer's CP-E system in a week or so on his mazdaspeed6 and am looking forward to it.

[palerider]

Im in on Xede, assuming PnP is finished while Im still young. Ive been so close to ordering this thing without the harnesses, but at this point I'll just wait.

BTW, I think the ability to keep the ECU upgrade stealth, is absolutely the most important factor for a car still under warranty. As the warranty becomes less of a factor in the years to come, then maybe other more powerful ECU options become more in play.... along with turbo upgrades and all the other stuff that the dealers for now would not allow.

I will say this. If you put Cobbs ECU in, assuming its ever actually released.... along with all the other crap they are gonna sell for their "stages", and then try to drive that sucker into a dealership for warranty work, you will be SCREWED. Mark it.

Compare that to MS CAI, CBE, and a Xede interceptor PNP.... and the dealer knows NOTHING. And with that you're looking at over 300.... safe, driveable, hp... to the freaking wheels, in a car you can drive straight into the dealership for the first 30-40K miles UNDER WARRANTY...... AS IS.

[dread]

Captain, this is a public forum and people are stating their opinions whether you agree with them or not. I have a lot of respect for what you do for this community, but I don't agree with how you are pushing the XEDE. The bottom line is the XEDE was out first because the hardware is generic and limited in what it can do. That is why the unit is being updated in the near future. Furthermore, you make it sound like CPE won't control the throttle and won't be plug and play. The reason why we don't have the standback yet is because CPE is putting a lot of effort into developing a product specifically for the MS3. As for cobb they have already cracked the ECU, which was reported on their forum and they are beginning to tune the MS3. I will not buy an XEDE when it becomes plug and play because I don't like the way its being marketed. The defensive comments and putting down of other products is an indication to me that the XEDE is inferior and vendors are trying to push it as fast as possible before something better comes out. Just because the thread title says XEDE doesn't mean that we can't mention another product.

[Captain KRM P5]

Captain, this is a public forum and people are stating their opinions whether you agree with them or not. I have a lot of respect for what you do for this community, but I don't agree with how you are pushing the XEDE. The bottom line is the XEDE was out first because the hardware is generic and limited in what it can do. That is why the unit is being updated in the near future. Furthermore, you make it sound like CPE won't control the throttle and won't be plug and play. The reason why we don't have the standback yet is because CPE is putting a lot of effort into developing a product specifically for the MS3. As for cobb they have already cracked the ECU, which was reported on their forum and they are beginning to tune the MS3. I will not buy an XEDE when it becomes plug and play because I don't like the way its being marketed. The defensive comments and putting down of other products is an indication to me that the XEDE is inferior and vendors are trying to push it as fast as possible before something better comes out. Just because the thread title says XEDE doesn't mean that we can't mention another product.
CP-E posted themselves elsewhere that they are likely not doing plug and play, i'm not making that up. i have no reason to do something like that. i'm not putting down other products in any way. i can post side by side comparisons of each hardware's ability in an impartial fashion, i've already done that in another thread. i've never insulted another system, but i've heard plenty of insults - most of them baseless, some in this thread - about this one. so if i don't stand up for the product i sell, and stand up for it on its own merits, then i am doing myself a disservice and allowing misperceptions to continue. if i do stand up for the system based on its own merits then i am accused of bias. damned if you do and damned if you don't.

like i said, i don't care if someone likes the system or not. however when someone starts a GI thread or GB thread and the fanboys/haters jump in to go out of thier way to piss in the cereal, thats tactless. if there were XEDE mouthpieces going into CP-E or Cobb threads - and mind you there are not - you would cry foul and get defensive about the system you support. i would expect you to if someone did that.

and yes, there are actually rules about going off topic or promoting another product in a specific thread, like it or not. i LIKE competition, i WANT competition, and i WANT constructive discussion. i've been doing that this entire thread. if you don't think i have, then i'm sorry. as for stating opinions, i agree. but stating an opinion is different from, honestly, making shit up when one has limited or zero experience with any of the product at hand. you have stated your opinion, and i have stated mine. you make it seem like its ok for you state a negative opinion, but its not okay that i state a conflicting opinion or bring up fact? seems a little one sided to me, but perhaps i am reading things out of context.

[dread]

I welcome all opinions, and all products for the ms3. All I was saying in my original comment is that the XEDE wasn't for me and I am waiting to see what other manufacturers can come up with. You said that you don't think that the throttle is an issue, but I thought AMS showed that its all over the place. I thought the XEDE was being updated to include this feature among others and when it is, it will be a more attractive option for me, especially if it is plug and play. Like I said, I have great respect for you and the products you make available to our community for great prices and I hope you don't take my comments as an attack on you. I think the XEDE will sell well once its plug and play, especially if its true what you say the cpe's standback is not going to be plug and play. Each system has its strong points, like you point out, but there is no way to tell what the advantages of each product are until they are released. I think its amazing that three companies are going to offer tuning options for the ms3, a limited production car. Its exciting time for the ms3 community, I just want to see how it all works out.

[Captain KRM P5]

just to make sure i had all my ducks in a row, i called josh at CP-E and spoke with him for the last few minutes. since we are installing and tuning one of thier Beta standbacks, he wanted my assurance i would not trash the unit or allow the "XEDE entourage" to attack it. i told him and i will give my public word right here, right now - even if the system blows up in my face, and i know it won't, i will not say one lick of ill against thier system. not a word of bad.

as for PnP, he said it was still a continual work in progress with more prototyping and parts to arrive/to be done around an August timeframe/closer to the end of the year.

one remark i failed to comment on; the one that XEDE was first to market because it was inferior or rushed. XEDE was first to market because the system has been around for years before the car even hit the streets and they (vishnu/begi) were wiring it into speed3 before the car even hit the dealer lots. this goes back to having your facts straight before a comment like that is made, no offense.

[Captain KRM P5]

I welcome all opinions, and all products for the ms3. All I was saying in my original comment is that the XEDE wasn't for me and I am waiting to see what other manufacturers can come up with. You said that you don't think that the throttle is an issue, but I thought AMS showed that its all over the place. I thought the XEDE was being updated to include this feature among others and when it is, it will be a more attractive option for me, especially if it is plug and play. Like I said, I have great respect for you and the products you make available to our community for great prices and I hope you don't take my comments as an attack on you. I think the XEDE will sell well once its plug and play, especially if its true what you say the cpe's standback is not going to be plug and play. Each system has its strong points, like you point out, but there is no way to tell what the advantages of each product are until they are released. I think its amazing that three companies are going to offer tuning options for the ms3, a limited production car. Its exciting time for the ms3 community, I just want to see how it all works out.

i agree with you, i think its awesome. we NEVER had this kind of support in the mazda community before. it was pretty much DIY engine management of the radio shack variety. ok, not that bad, but still it was nothing like this is now. you guys are very lucky. i just hope it doesn't become like the other car crowds now that mazda is becoming more mainstream.

i know you aren't attacking me, just like i am not attacking anyone else. part of the reason i gave josh a call to get more or new information. he gave me some pointers on tuning thier standback and his thoughts on the limitations of the car itself. that kind of information sharing helps everyone.

[dread]

I realize the xede was around and don't think its inferior because its out first, in fact you could argue that it would be more reliable because its worked on so many cars.
Mazda makes it as hard as they can to tune these cars. I am just glad there are people out there willing to take a risk on our relatively small community. I can't believe how much these forums have blown up since the ms3 was released. I never imagined such an impact from a limited production car that is not even advertised. Mazda hit the nail on the head with this one.

[palerider]

Im Jonesing for the Xede, and I had an idea.

If I hire a damn electrician to install this, is there anyway to make the box in and out in under 30 seconds.

Basically cut the wires but hook up the smallest connectors possible. Make it look professional, and make it easier to hide from my dealership. Basically do a DIY PnP.

The biggest issue for me has been cutting existing wires, and I havent heard enough discussion on what the actual long term ramifications for cutting it up are. Anyway....

I want to buy this thing tonight. lol. I got the bug.

[SAVAGE70]

Hey Palerider I like your idea. I am all so for the XEDE PnP. It has to me proven it will be worth the wait and money. If Im not mistaken it is the only engine management system for our cars that has actual numbers, hp and torque gains that we can see. And it has actually been installed in the MS3, unlike CPE and COBB.

[palerider]

Hey Dread I like your idea. I am all so for the XEDE PnP. It has to me proven it will be worth the wait and money. If Im not mistaken it is the only engine management system for our cars that has actual numbers, hp and torque gains that we can see. And it has actually been installed in the MS3, unlike CPE and COBB.

What was Dreads idea? Do you mean mine, about the electrician? hopefully?

Anyway. So far, I find it hard to believe, that for the mods currently available, that the Xede wont be more than enough. With some simple boltons and a Xede, we can achieve ~300hp.

And I have searched these boards and I have not found a SINGLE, not one, UNsatisfied customer. All the negative revolves around the wirecutting PnP issues, and the Cobb homers who want to knock this product because of the Subaru. Well we aint driving rexs, and I aint getting any younger either.

[DeepBlue]

I'll be interested in the XEDE PnP when it becomes available.

[ZoomRedZoomGT]

Put me on the list for one as soon as PNP comes along.

[meha11]

As soon as pnp is available i'll be buying one but not before.
It is the only other speed enhancing mod i'm interested in, my money is in a safe place waiting to be spent.

[Grodzman]

Cobb is user friendly in the manner that out of the box you can't do your own tuning, unless you drop a few more dollars ($200) into it.

So umm...how much does the Cobb AP cost after you drop $200 bucks on the StreetTUNER software?

Oh yeah...still $100 less than the XEDE. (braindead

[Captain KRM P5]

So umm...how much does the Cobb AP cost after you drop $200 bucks on the StreetTUNER software?

Oh yeah...still $100 less than the XEDE. (braindead

and we're working to make the base XEDE cheaper than Cobb as a wire in unit with tunability out of the box and as cheap with PnP. new developments are in the works on that. as was stated long ago, XEDE has just a few more features over Cobb box regardless of what trim you were to buy it in. i know you're an accessport fanboy, you've made that clear to me in every thread you can :) i've already broken down why the XEDE is feature for feature a more capable system. CP-E's for the record is also a more capable system. you have your own opinion and i am aware that you and i will always disagree on some things. the only thing that can be complained about now - which i too complain about with XEDE - is price. and thats hopefully going to be a non issue very very soon.

oh yeah and there is really no sign of Cobb's system (just like thier miata system, protege system, etc) which was promised what, next month? (drinks)

[voiceKoil]

oh yeah and there is really no sign of Cobb's system (just like thier miata system, protege system, etc) which was promised what, next month? (drinks)

lol, pnp will be a great thing! Im getting impatient

[voiceKoil]

Im Jonesing for the Xede, and I had an idea.

If I hire a damn electrician to install this, is there anyway to make the box in and out in under 30 seconds.

Basically cut the wires but hook up the smallest connectors possible. Make it look professional, and make it easier to hide from my dealership. Basically do a DIY PnP.

The biggest issue for me has been cutting existing wires, and I havent heard enough discussion on what the actual long term ramifications for cutting it up are. Anyway....

I want to buy this thing tonight. lol. I got the bug.


I was also thinking of doing something like this, a DIY PNP as you call it, I was figuring I could buy some pin connectors/ adapters, something to wire this into the plugs without actually cutting them. Im not cutting anything, I want to just make it connect somehow, I think it would be possible. (2thumbs)

[Captain KRM P5]

I was also thinking of doing something like this, a DIY PNP as you call it, I was figuring I could buy some pin connectors/ adapters, something to wire this into the plugs without actually cutting them. Im not cutting anything, I want to just make it connect somehow, I think it would be possible. (2thumbs)

BEGi threw this idea around but it more or less still amounts to the customer cutting wires to put in some connectors. it can be more or less hidden from dealer view but its still not true PnP so i know most people won't go for it for that reason alone. if a dealer were to look for the homemade PnP harness and find it, there could be a warranty concern. if you knew someone who was good with wiring and creative, it could be done. we've been given a timetable of two months until PnP is retail release ready, and the price should drop - significantly we hope - before that time as well.

[Grodzman]

An AP fanboy I'm not...and the StreetTUNER software is pretty poopy as far as I'm concerned. The last STi I tried to tune with StreetTUNER has a dead spot in the power band because the increments aren't small enough to make a fine enough adjustment in timing.

I still can't seem to remember how a piggyback is better than a full ECU flash.

I'm a fan boy of EcuEDIT & EcuFlash. OpenECU all the way.

So first and foremost, the BEGi XEDE is the first to release a reliable solution for our market -- *cheers*

...what fun is it if I can't be the devil's advocate? I'm fighting for the cheapest most reliable solution for our application. I think I speak for everyone in the Mazda community when I say I would like all that and a bag of potato chips.

P.S. I would have to by a hypocrite to hate BEGi, Maximum Boost by Corky Bell is sitting on my night-stand as I write.

[Captain KRM P5]

I still can't seem to remember how a piggyback is better than a full ECU flash.



well it depends on the particular piggyback being compared to the particular flash. goods and bads among both categories.

[Equinox]

Xede is a great unit, and the Transam WS6 I beat with it, will agree. I'm not sure upgrading to the PNP system will be needed for me, I mean, installed is installed.

[Captain KRM P5]

i was wondering when i was going to hear some feedback from you on it :)

[maestro]

and we're working to make the base XEDE cheaper than Cobb as a wire in unit with tunability out of the box and as cheap with PnP. new developments are in the works on that. as was stated long ago, XEDE has just a few more features over Cobb box regardless of what trim you were to buy it in. i know you're an accessport fanboy, you've made that clear to me in every thread you can :) i've already broken down why the XEDE is feature for feature a more capable system. CP-E's for the record is also a more capable system. you have your own opinion and i am aware that you and i will always disagree on some things. the only thing that can be complained about now - which i too complain about with XEDE - is price. and thats hopefully going to be a non issue very very soon.



So I'm just starting to check out the tuning guide from BEGIs' site, a little bit of a read. I thought I read somewhere that there are several maps for the MS3 but I only saw Miata on the BEGI site. Do I need my glasses?
I willl have a local shop (Corksport) tune the unit but it costs me less in tuning time if I can get a base map for current mods, 80mm TBE and MS CAI.

The Xede unit is still on my hotlist of parts for this summer and a lower price is that much nicer, thank you!

[Champloo]

Count me in for an XEDE PNP! A mod that increases HP and torque AND fuel efficiency?!? That's awesome! It's worth the wait for me to get all that and keep my warranty. And it's going to come out at a lower price? This just keeps getting better and better!

[voiceKoil]

BEGi threw this idea around but it more or less still amounts to the customer cutting wires to put in some connectors. it can be more or less hidden from dealer view but its still not true PnP so i know most people won't go for it for that reason alone. if a dealer were to look for the homemade PnP harness and find it, there could be a warranty concern. if you knew someone who was good with wiring and creative, it could be done. we've been given a timetable of two months until PnP is retail release ready, and the price should drop - significantly we hope - before that time as well.

I didnt mean making a Pnp on the existing wires from the car, I meant from the existing harnesses. Just like the xede would plug into each end of the ecu loop, thats how I would make it fit, if possible, instead of splicing wires and connecting it, make little pins that fit in the factory harness, basically a "ghetto" version of Pnp, I think I could do it lol. Its a little hard to explain but thats what I was thinking about doing. I consider myself to be a little crafty ;) lol

and does it seem 2 months is the latest time it would take to be Pnp? Im not sure if you can really answer it?

[BuckDich]

Yar, I'm in for sure.

[boost_me]

Wow.... I just read all 3pages, picachu knows his shit!!!

Hey...when you guys get the PNP harness for the vishnu, I will be on it like flies on shit!!

I choose you picachu!! (Lol)

[Captain KRM P5]

haha thanks man

[maczter]

Lower price + PNP = Interested

[Habuzaki]

I'm In Like Flynn on this one, add another XEDE sold when its ready.

[MS6S2K]

I recommend everyone be patient and wait for Cobb., and see which one is better. Cobb should have a superior tuning system for this car, with many more features, and much better drivability, and I believe it will also be safer, although only time will tell that story. I understand the vendor will come on on and defend his product, and has every right to, but make your own decision, and don't be influenced by anything but straight up evidence FACTS, not opinions and stories. Don't sell out on a product until time has passed and there are several options.

[palerider]

.......and don't be influenced by anything but straight up evidence FACTS, not opinions and stories.

Fact.
Cobb is promising accessports for about 20 cars, when in FACT they have never released anything for anything but Subarus.

Fact.
Xede is available now, has proven gains, and reliability, as EVIDENCED by the lack of a single complaint on this board by a current user....... that Ive seen.

Fact.
Cobbs reflash will void a warranty if discovered. It CAN be detected. PNP interceptor systems should be the choice for those that value a warranty on their brand new cars, as it CANNOT be detected.

Opinion.
New to the Mazda scene, I find it hilarious that all you subaru guys stand around in a circle, jerking about Cobb. Im an exHonda guy, and that does not mean that if Hondata buys a MS3, that Im gonna start trashing anything thats been around for awhile because I used to have Kpro.

Fact.
This is a "dibs" thread on Xede. You threadjacked it.

Opinion.
Im not a Xede rep. But, Im sick of the vendors who seem to represent this product well, getting continually called out and then getting dared to respond. And on top of this, actually getting called out by people comparing Xede to a system like Cobbs, that may never even be fucking released.

Unbelievable.

[Equinox]

Fact: (sorta) I love my Xede 8D

[speed3shon]

i read on the cobb forums it cannot be detected if you "unmarry" it to take your car into the dealership.

Im waiting on something that is not wire in, and provides results. there is no such thing yet. i may be waiting a while....

[Boosted03MSP]

Good luck with Cobb ever making it. They have only made for Subys the last like 5-7 years. Everything has said coming soon for any other car on their site for awhile. I doubt it will get made. Small market, not alot of profit and too much cost to R&D it.

[Yoarashi]

Fact.
Cobb is promising accessports for about 20 cars, when in FACT they have never released anything for anything but Subarus.

Fact.
Xede is available now, has proven gains, and reliability, as EVIDENCED by the lack of a single complaint on this board by a current user....... that Ive seen.

Fact.
Cobbs reflash will void a warranty if discovered. It CAN be detected. PNP interceptor systems should be the choice for those that value a warranty on their brand new cars, as it CANNOT be detected.

Opinion.
New to the Mazda scene, I find it hilarious that all you subaru guys stand around in a circle, jerking about Cobb. Im an exHonda guy, and that does not mean that if Hondata buys a MS3, that Im gonna start trashing anything thats been around for awhile because I used to have Kpro.

Fact.
This is a "dibs" thread on Xede. You threadjacked it.

Opinion.
Im not a Xede rep. But, Im sick of the vendors who seem to represent this product well, getting continually called out and then getting dared to respond. And on top of this, actually getting called out by people comparing Xede to a system like Cobbs, that may never even be fucking released.

Unbelievable.


People need to stop treating the protege garage folks like they do. I had trouble with a part i bought from them and one of their mechanics called me back at 1030pm on a friday. Thats damn good service. Give them the respect they deserve.

Dibs on a pnp harness

[desperado-c]

People need to stop treating the protege garage folks like they do. I had trouble with a part i bought from them and one of their mechanics called me back at 1030pm on a friday. Thats damn good service. Give them the respect they deserve.

Dibs on a pnp harness

+1. These guys are sponsors and should be treated well as people supporting this community. If you want to rave about another vendor's product and compare it to the Xede, that's all well and good, but it should be done in the right spirit in the right thread. None of us is omniscient and everybody should work on the basis that we have opinions based on less than perfect knowledge.

[palerider]

i read on the cobb forums it cannot be detected if you "unmarry" it to take your car into the dealership.

Im waiting on something that is not wire in, and provides results. there is no such thing yet. i may be waiting a while....

My understanding from all that Ive read, is that the Cobb unit actually flashes the ecu on a Subaru. When you unmarry it, you do so by, reflashing it back to stock.

Ive heard NUMEROUS places that this flash IS detectable(Cobb forum not withstanding). Not detectable in the sense that dealerships will know WHAT was flashed, but that they will in FACT know that the ECU was altered at some place in time.

Interceptors are the only ECU mod that acts as a "bolt on" type of mod. Any reprogramming, or I guess in this case... wirecutting... would in all likelyhood void the warranty.

And also, Id like to also say that the ProtegeGarage group certainly seems like a great bunch of guys. I feel like our car is their top priority right now, and I plan on purchasing all my future mods, when possible, through their site. I think we need to support them as much as possible on our limited production vehicle.

[justhavnfun]

this "harness" that keeps being mentioned, is this a harness to connect the Xede via oem connectors? not liking the wire cutting! that would be a deal breaker for me for sure. what are the gains in hp, torque, and maybe even some dyno or track et's ? i don't mind shelling out a grand to make the wife's grocery getter faster but i want to know what improvements i'm getting for my money.

[Equinox]

this is just a dibs thread on the PnP. Perhaps you can search for the main XEDE thread.

[justhavnfun]

yeh i know how the thread STARTED but i seems every other thread is about if this product is worth buying compared to others. i think i'll pass untill i see more actual performance data. i think Exde is asking for problems expecting novice car tuners to splice wires to make this thing work. you don't have to be rocket scientist to splice wires but if you're splicing wires outside the cabin, the elements can quickly corrode a poorly insulated connections. just look up any major manufacture's TSB's and you'll find many electrical problems resulting from moisture (for some reason or another) getting into factory waterproof connectors. good luck, hope it works out but i'll wait till they use oem weatherproof connectors. i'd be willing to shell out more cash for oem connectors. for what it's worth to PnP.

[Captain KRM P5]

People need to stop treating the protege garage folks like they do. I had trouble with a part i bought from them and one of their mechanics called me back at 1030pm on a friday. Thats damn good service. Give them the respect they deserve.

thank you for the kind words. glad to know we made you happy :)

i read on the cobb forums it cannot be detected if you "unmarry" it to take your car into the dealership.

Im waiting on something that is not wire in, and provides results. there is no such thing yet. i may be waiting a while....

cobb's engineering department told me that regardless of if the system is married or unmarried, flashed Cobb or flashed back to Mazda, the dealer can see that the ECU was modified and by a system other an Mazda workstation. if the engine on your MS3/6 goes and Mazda NA asks the tech to scan the car for something like that, they will find it, and they will void your warranty. It will either be a master technician or a district rep. They value these engine's reputations highly and will work to make any failure appear as a customer's fault. i've worked for Mazda for a long time before doing this stuff and its not some BS, i've seen it happen on more than a few cars.

like i have always said, if and when the cobb system comes to light, i'll happily offer it along with whatever systems make promising results for these cars. my biggest complaint outside of PnP on XEDE is price and we're working to cut that down. WAY down. worst case scenario the price of XEDE stays up there, you still can't tune Cobb on your own without sinking another $200 into the package.

comparing the system feature by feature, XEDE does factually offer more capability than AccessPort. subjectively speaking, its ultimately going to come down to personal preference. i had a few STis come in for our meet and greet party last week and they told me that AccessPort and its AccessTuner software "sucked ass". again, thats opinions.

the focus of the thread is see if people really want PnP. the XEDE itself has been proven time and again on several cars, more than a few dyno sheets and several track times. if there is no interest i am not going to sink the capital into it.

[speed3shon]

i must be missing these track times and dyno sheets on the xede...

[justhavnfun]

quote "the dealer can see that the ECU was modified and by a system other an Mazda workstation. if the engine on your MS3/6 goes and Mazda NA asks the tech to scan the car for something like that, they will find it, and they will void your warranty." quote

and if you have the Xede system in your car, don't you think mazda will be inspecting key wires for any signs of splicing? every system out there for this car seems to be detectable by mazda. unless Xede makes the system as a harness so that if things go wrong you can unplug the unit and put everything back as it was. chevy and ford have had these harnesses via different aftermarket companies (bulldog, ect.) for years, why can't the same be done for this car?

[Captain KRM P5]

and if you have the Xede system in your car, don't you think mazda will be inspecting key wires for any signs of splicing? every system out there for this car seems to be detectable by mazda. unless Xede makes the system as a harness so that if things go wrong you can unplug the unit and put everything back as it was. chevy and ford have had these harnesses via different aftermarket companies (bulldog, ect.) for years, why can't the same be done for this car?
bingo! and if you go read this whole thread from its title to its start and to its finish, you'll see that its very purpose - despite the threadjacking and flaming - is to gauge interest in a PnP (plug and play) harness for XEDE as an option over splicing wires.

why do harnesses not get made for these cars? companies who make tuning hardware for systems that are plug and play past and present do so based on vehicle sales volume and potential part sales. for one, domestic vehicles such as the ones you mention typically sell in higher volumes than the mazdas we focus on. beyond that, with the exception of the miata and last gen RX7s, most engine management companies do not see any value in creating mazda specific harnesses. the harnesses are expensive to source from mazda, take a long time to get, and by the time you reproduce them, the likely number of people you will have that buy them is pretty small. domestic harnesses you don't have to call tokyo to procure. to most companies its not worth the investment. we have several of the harnesses already needed to make these systems plug and play. getting japan on the ball to send them in timely and cost effective manner is not easy.

its funny you mention Bully Dog. I approached them and Banks and a few other companies about doing DISI 2.3 Turbo systems and they told me it wasn't worth the investment due to limited production numbers and limited sales projections. same thing happened on the protege. they weren't even interested when i offered to foot the bill in its entirety. AEM pretty much told me unless it was a Honda or Acura they weren't even looking at doing it. Mazda is still viewed as more of a niche car by most companies and thats why, among other reasons, PnP systems are not readily available.

[SAVAGE70]

Im all for the XEDE. In my opinion it has already proved itself and can only get better. 1000 dollars well spent. Just let me know when the PNP is ready. I want to be one of the first to get one. Or if we can make a deposit to reserve one

[justhavnfun]

:) bingo! and if you go read this whole thread from its title to its start and to its finish, you'll see that its very purpose - despite the threadjacking and flaming - is to gauge interest in a PnP (plug and play) harness for XEDE as an option over splicing wires.

why do harnesses not get made for these cars? companies who make tuning hardware for systems that are plug and play past and present do so based on vehicle sales volume and potential part sales. for one, domestic vehicles such as the ones you mention typically sell in higher volumes than the mazdas we focus on. beyond that, with the exception of the miata and last gen RX7s, most engine management companies do not see any value in creating mazda specific harnesses. the harnesses are expensive to source from mazda, take a long time to get, and by the time you reproduce them, the likely number of people you will have that buy them is pretty small. domestic harnesses you don't have to call tokyo to procure. to most companies its not worth the investment. we have several of the harnesses already needed to make these systems plug and play. getting japan on the ball to send them in timely and cost effective manner is not easy.

its funny you mention Bully Dog. I approached them and Banks and a few other companies about doing DISI 2.3 Turbo systems and they told me it wasn't worth the investment due to limited production numbers and limited sales projections. same thing happened on the protege. they weren't even interested when i offered to foot the bill in its entirety. AEM pretty much told me unless it was a Honda or Acura they weren't even looking at doing it. Mazda is still viewed as more of a niche car by most companies and thats why, among other reasons, PnP systems are not readily available.


first, thanks for enlightning me on what PNP stood for. i feel like a ass. (thought it was the manufacturer of Xede) i understand the whole limited production vehicle issue, i knew that when i bought the car having already owned a few limited production cars in the past. i know it takes time to get anything from mazda. my ms3 was hit and run 4 weeks after i bought it and it took 6 weeks to get a new bumper cover. anyways, put me on the list and thanks for being polite about my ignorance on the PNP. you people and your abbreviations! they're killing me. you need some kind of index for the old schoolers. :)

[ZooMIN3]

This is great. Can't wait till its available.... one question, I have a MS3 being delivered in 3-4 months time frame. According to my dealer, its an 08 model; will this XEDE system be compatible? Or is this something that'll have to be tweaked a little to work with the 08s? The way I see it, we won't know until the 08 models are released...

However, if in the end it does work, you can count me in.

-J

PS I hate having the mod bug..... wallet seems to run dry?!! Hmm... CA-CHING! lol

[GoFast]

will this have an option to flash back to the fatory tune? also do you know if the dealer can tell if the computer was reprogrammed and then put back to stock?

[ZooMIN3]

will this have an option to flash back to the fatory tune? also do you know if the dealer can tell if the computer was reprogrammed and then put back to stock?

I beleive that it just re-maps the ECU for certain tuning options. It doesn't FLASH the ECU. At least I didn't see that it FLASHed the ECU when you installed it. So it should be good to go. The only thing as it is now, you have to hard wire it into your ECU's wiring... the guys here at ProtegeGarage are going to make it easier, where all we have to do, plug the connectors together without splicing, and you're set. If you need to take it off, just unplug the XEDE kit, and voila! You're back to a stock ECU, no flashing. Nice if you ask me. just like a radio install, with the proper harnesses, you can just plug and go... i like plug n play. *BORAT VOICE* HI FIVE!!! lol

I pulled this from the site:

XEDE Technical Specifications


* 1200 possible adjustments
* 0.1% accuracy on MAF, MAP, and TPS adjustments
* 0.1degree accuracy on timing adjustments
* Fully sealed, rugged, and lightweight housing
* Support for hall and reluctor type crank and / or cam timing signals
* Support for analog or frequency MAF and MAP / load signals
* One additional 10-bit analog input
* One auxiliary digital input / output
* Internal storage space for up to 12 tuning maps
* Built-in boost control (MSM & MS3 only. Coming soon for Miata)
* Self-configurable load axis, input and output variables, adjustment range, and math function for each map
* 'Map Select' input to change between one of two unique tuning maps
* Bi-color status LED
* Wideband Integration

Web Addy Below

http://mazda3online.web.aplus.net/product_info.php?cPath=281_22_160_259&products_id=715


-J

[Yoarashi]

will this have an option to flash back to the fatory tune? also do you know if the dealer can tell if the computer was reprogrammed and then put back to stock?


The xede unit is a interceptor type. It doesnt reflash anything. It intercepts the signals from the ecu and rewrites them and then sends them out. With the pnp harness its as simple as plugging it in. The unit comes with a base map that is pretty good but could be made much better if you found a shop to tune it for you. The best thing about this unit with the pnp harness is that if you have to go to the dealer you simply unplug the xede and go to mazda. They would have no way of knowing it was ever there.

[GoFast]

The xede unit is a interceptor type. It doesnt reflash anything. It intercepts the signals from the ecu and rewrites them and then sends them out. With the pnp harness its as simple as plugging it in. The unit comes with a base map that is pretty good but could be made much better if you found a shop to tune it for you. The best thing about this unit with the pnp harness is that if you have to go to the dealer you simply unplug the xede and go to mazda. They would have no way of knowing it was ever there.

very nice

[Micah]

so it's a piggyback

[GoFast]

well ad me to the PnP list

[MazdaSPD3]

Add me to The Plug and Play wire harness too.

[Shiftatredline]

Put me down also. I just put the deposit down for my new Speed3. I pick it up July 14th from the airport when I come back from Iraq. I already have a laundry list of parts to order before I leave so they will be stacked up waiting for me when I arrive home, lol. Hopefully the Xede PnP will be among them.

[nypest]

+1 on the pnp im in

[WickedMZR]

+1

[Captain KRM P5]

ETA on harnesses is end of july/mid july

[nypest]

ETA on harnesses is end of july/mid july
YES!!!!!! put me on the list

[BSTD3]

YES!!!!!! put me on the list

+1 here too! (dance)

[MadOzodi]

Just in time for my B-day!

[silver_ms3]

i will buy too

[maczter]

Any chance you guys will be doing a PnP harness for the MS6 as well? I have a friend whose interested.

[shucky]

+1 for me!

[Champloo]

When the PnP version comes out, will it also have wideband integration? BEGI's website just says that's "coming soon". I plan on installing a wideband gauge so it would be great if I could connect the sensor to the XEDE too.

[CaSHMeRe]

i was all for the PNP Xede unit, then found out that is won't have an type of control for the Throttle Plate, so the PNP is really of no use, besides the new wideband feature

[Nutari]

When the PnP version comes out, will it also have wideband integration? BEGI's website just says that's "coming soon". I plan on installing a wideband gauge so it would be great if I could connect the sensor to the XEDE too.
Yes, the new harnesses have wideband integration.

[Captain KRM P5]

i was all for the PNP Xede unit, then found out that is won't have an type of control for the Throttle Plate, so the PNP is really of no use, besides the new wideband feature

then again, no system has control of the throttle plate. everyone is planning on having it, but its not as easy as some people thought it was going to be.

[jmacmx6gt]

+1 for me also. are you guys sending out emails when there ready or what?

[Captain KRM P5]

trust me we'll let everyone here know :D

[SAVAGE70]

Hey Capt have u guys got the connectors yet? I read on another forum that CPE has already got them.

[Haltech]

Well if chip company ( Diablosport/SCT) can reverse the closing throttle bodies on 05/06 GTs and the Shelby, why cant an intercepter system do it?

[udontknowjack]

whats the latest on the pnp?? i read it somewhere aug 1....still stand?

[Abaddon]

+1 for me when it's released.


Yes, the new harnesses have wideband integration.

Meaning what exactly? All I will need to do to view A/F is to purchase a Gauge? No O2 sensor/controler/etc. ?

[StephanieT]

Any chance you guys will be doing a PnP harness for the MS6 as well? I have a friend whose interested.
The PNP connectors for the MS6 are coming with the MS3 ones! So about the same time, Protege Garage will have those. :)

i was all for the PNP Xede unit, then found out that is won't have an type of control for the Throttle Plate, so the PNP is really of no use, besides the new wideband feature
If we find that control of the Throttle Plate is beneficial, it might be added. But if 300 whp can be hit without it..... it is really necessary or supposition???

The wideband feature will be added into the PNP Harness. It will be a nice SMART Tune function, but not 100% necessary. The MS3 has a stock WB O2 sensor already. All the additional wideband SMART function will do is add an extra correction if the car goes out of it's "happy" zone. For example, if the WB O2 input voltage is lean, the SMART Map will add fuel momentarily to return it to it's "happy" zone. But during the "happy" zone, no additional corrections are made.

It is nice for when you drive thru different elevations or have frequent changes in temperature. The use of an WB O2 gauge is not necessary. You will only need a WB O2 sensor with an Analog out wire. For example, the Innovate Motorsports LC-1 AN out wire is yellow. It attaches the yellow wire in the Xede harness.
Stephanie

[speed3shon]

but it seems like so much power is lost after 6000rpms, thats at least another 500rpms that could make more power if the throttle plate wasnt being closed...

[StephanieT]

In that rpm range (6000 to 6500) there is very little power that could be gained. 10 fwhp, maybe 15. We know that from other cars that have a rec limiter increased 500 rpm. If the difference was 1000 or 1500 rpm - that would be a different story.

Stephanie

[Equinox]

vroom vroom. :)

[krnage]

+1 for PNP action
very interested in this even more with PNP

now to find the money to feed the addiction haha

[speed3shon]

500 more rpms with 300+hp would be HUGE

i just want some more timing to spool the turbo better, and between shifts

[redspeed]

I want pnp and throttle control. That shit about the ecu closing the throttle is killing the hp at high rpm. (argh)

[controlo]

i'm down like james brown!

[funkyman]

If a system ain`t plug and play then just shove it down the drain.

[Haltech]

Ken, when are these harnesses avail? You were stating mid july?

[bast525]

I'm definately interested... saving my pennies at this time, and waiting to see if cobb or xede is the way to go.

I don't care as long as it's easy to install, won't blow my engine up, and comes as close to 300 whp as I can get (thumb)

[CaSHMeRe]

I'm definately interested... saving my pennies at this time, and waiting to see if cobb or xede is the way to go.

I don't care as long as it's easy to install, won't blow my engine up, and comes as close to 300 whp as I can get (thumb)

Same boat !!! saving every penny i get !!!

CPE is coming out with a Standback system as well !!!(nana)

[Ferdball]

I might be interested.

[sportyrider]

I'm interested. Plug n play is the way!

[Speedy3]

I'm in, but not until I get my patio poured.

[meha11]

I'm in, but not until I get my patio poured.


You could do a "Fred West" to save money on the cement.(confused)

[Hyun]

I thought coming out on Aug 1st? Where is it? :(

[udontknowjack]

I thought coming out on Aug 1st? Where is it? :(

+1.....(hand)

[justhavnfun]

i keep checking.... anyone have a update on a eta? anyone?...... hello?......
is it even in the works?!

[Haltech]

Yea, seriously, whats the deal with this thing?

[clos561]

it comes out in 20 minutes, get ready!

[SharkDiver]

it comes out in 20 minutes, get ready!

OK its been 20mins...Where is it.....Im ready...

[cx7pos]

I have another question, but I don't know if this is sensitive material. From the looks of it, the Xede "looks" like the Haltech Interceptor, the software is different, but only the GUI, it still have the same amount of Inputs and outputs. I know a few other companies OE from Haltech, which I'll keep it on the down low, just incase I step on someone's foot.

My point of the question is... is there ANY difference between the two units? Xede vs Interceptor minus the software interface. Or the Xede been OE in a way that is specifically more "compatible" to Mazda's signal ins/outs.

The Interceptor is also been verified to be working on the Mazda6 MPS (Euro name of the Speed6), as well as MSM and Miatas.

* NOTE - Oh and when I say WORK, I don't mean complete solution, like the TPS problem I see the Speed3/6 possible CX-7 has. I mean by the crank signal wheel is recognized by the piggyback unit.


I am only asking because I am trying to find EMS on the CX-7.

[Captain KRM P5]

I have another question, but I don't know if this is sensitive material. From the looks of it, the Xede "looks" like the Haltech Interceptor, the software is different, but only the GUI, it still have the same amount of Inputs and outputs. I know a few other companies OE from Haltech, which I'll keep it on the down low, just incase I step on someone's foot.

My point of the question is... is there ANY difference between the two units? Xede vs Interceptor minus the software interface. Or the Xede been OE in a way that is specifically more "compatible" to Mazda's signal ins/outs.

The Interceptor is also been verified to be working on the Mazda6 MPS (Euro name of the Speed6), as well as MSM and Miatas.

* NOTE - Oh and when I say WORK, I don't mean complete solution, like the TPS problem I see the Speed3/6 possible CX-7 has. I mean by the crank signal wheel is recognized by the piggyback unit.


I am only asking because I am trying to find EMS on the CX-7.

the haltech interceptor and XEDE unit do not share the same circuit board. i've pulled one of each unit apart and they are not the same.

[Captain KRM P5]

i keep checking.... anyone have a update on a eta? anyone?...... hello?......
is it even in the works?!

this is why i refused initially to throw out release dates. hey everyone, cobb's unit was due at the start of the year - where is it? then it was early to mid 2007 - where is it? this is why, despite being badgered by everyone, i hate putting out a release date. The powers that be wanted me to put something out there in terms of a date, so we did, which I still think was not a good idea. BEGi has started accepting deposits for the unit, which I have not and will not due. When its ready its ready and I will not make any false promises, offer false hopes or take names, put dibs on or accept deposits before that time comes.

i don't think it was ever said that 8/01/07 was the firm unwavering date. everything is scheduled to come together this month. when it happens there will be an update. until then i'm not going to play games with people only to let them down.

[Habuzaki]

Thanks for the update Captain. I think people just wonder when they don't hear anything if maybe the whole project got scrapped. I'll patiently wait, Sept, Oct, Nov, whenever. If this thing performs as advertised, then it will be well worth the wait (2thumbs).

[sweetpickles]

Add another potentially interested buyer here!

[ZooZoom]

Cobb is simply waiting to obtain a production supply source for the new CAN bus, like all tuners that want PnP capability. It seems the OEM mfgs are consuming the full volume of these precious dohickys.

I spoke with a Cobb rep, and he honestly said that once they obtain a steady supply of CAN bus cables/connectors, that Cobb intends to satisfy (backfill) the pent up demand for 2007 Subaru products, and of course 2008's now.

He then said a decision was to be made to start moving out on Mazda products (read Speed 3/6) or Nissan/Infiniti (350Z, G35, Maxima, Altima, anything with the VQ V-6 motor).

Its doesn't take a rocket scientist (which I happen to be one) to figure out there's a 99.9% chance that Cobb will first go for the much, much larger Nissan/Infiniti market segment.

I'm just hoping they find a supplier soon for the CAN stuff so that Mazda Accessports might start production before Christmas this year. (kiss)

[SAVAGE70]

So whats the word on the XEDE EMS? Any time soon? I started this thread, but wow I dont know. I mean CPE Standback is sounding so good. I read they might have PnP out in November. Can we expect XEDE EMS to be out like this year sometime or what?

[StephanieT]

The Xede mapping is done, and has been for 11 months. It is the PNP connectors that are missing. If you wire it in, it works just fine. :)
Stephanie

[SAVAGE70]

I am sorry I meant to ask when can we expect the PnP to be completed? Also what is the amount of HP/TQ does the XEDE bring just installed....no tuning.The Xede mapping is done, and has been for 11 months. It is the PNP connectors that are missing. If you wire it in, it works just fine. :)
Stephanie

[BSTD3]

I am sorry I meant to ask when can we expect the PnP to be completed? Also what is the amount of HP/TQ does the XEDE bring just installed....no tuning.

I am curious as to the same questions Savage70 asked...?

[StephanieT]

We do currently have one of the two needed connectors in stock. We are still working on getting the male connectors, but hope to have them in a few months. We are half way there.

For power increases -
Completely Stock:
221.5 fwhp & 229.5 ft-lbs torque.

Added Xede only:
287.6 fwhp & 309.9 ft-lbs torque.

The last map this car was tuned with is the one we use as the base map. That is a 66.1 whp gain and a 80.5 ft-lbs torque gain. I only know of one person who had his MS3 w/ Xede dyno'd. Nutari did his in Hawaii and I think he showed ~275 whp on the base map.
Stephanie

[Nutari]

I only know of one person who had his MS3 w/ Xede dyno'd. Nutari did his in Hawaii and I think he showed ~275 whp on the base map.
Stephanie
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/Deathwater/mazda/ondyno.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/Deathwater/mazda/FinalMapdyno.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/Deathwater/mazda/runs.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/Deathwater/mazda/lean.jpg

[maczter]

Dammit Nutari! Why you gotta taunt us like that after Stephanie tells us the other connectors are at least a month away? ;)

[palerider]

Nutari... with the Xede already in place, what has been the effect of adding the Vibrant exhaust? I dont think Ive seen you mention a downpipe, or intake on your car.... but I assume youve got at least some upgrade on the intake. I think I recall you have the ETS.

Im interested in how its coming together for you...(dynos, maps, etc)... We dont have much info on Xede with bolt ons. It seems that everybody is going the cp-e route lately.

And Stephanie...

Can we expect a drop in the Xede price now that the market seems to dictate it. Wouldnt it make sense to keep your systems relevent by dropping the price, considering PNP has been more of a tease than a reality? If Im off base.... it seems a Begi pitch, on the Xede vs the standback would be on order.

Ive been a supporter of the Xede in this thread, but as the months have gone by and the market has moved forward, Im having second thoughts.

[voiceKoil]

The whole fact that the lack of a single connector is what is holding this system back from being pnp is getting old. SOO many people say they would get it if it was pnp, including myself, so it seems like that would be a top priority for Xede, it honestly seems like someone at the shop would have went to Radioshack and came up with something by now....... I mean seriously its the biggest draw back of the whole system, but it seems so easily fixed, I think its just an excuss now, and Ive been waiting along side everyone else for this.......


What gives already....

[Sierra117]

I could be, and most likely am, 100% wrong, but I think it might be just a touch bit more than just some plug connector. Back when I was about to pick up a BMW 335i (aka before I had a reality check), there was a huge (and still is I believe) mess all over the XEDE vs. PROcede stuff. Twenty page long threads over which one is better...and about 90% of the posting between the two same members with the tuners jumping in every so often.

My understanding from reading all those is that it has something to do with the box and pins and stuff like that.

[ragindark]

Nutari... with the Xede already in place, what has been the effect of adding the Vibrant exhaust? I dont think Ive seen you mention a downpipe, or intake on your car.... but I assume youve got at least some upgrade on the intake. I think I recall you have the ETS.

http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123671313&highlight=mods

"Here Nutari was kind enough to post dyno graphs of his tuning sessions with the SPEED3. His car isn't stock (I saw an ETS top mount intercooler but no mods list) and he didn't make as much power as BEGi."

[Nutari]

http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123671313&highlight=mods

"Here Nutari was kind enough to post dyno graphs of his tuning sessions with the SPEED3. His car isn't stock (I saw an ETS top mount intercooler but no mods list) and he didn't make as much power as BEGi."

What are you talking about?

I did those runs with the ETS off. I'm also in Hawaii. HUGE climate difference than Texas where BEGI is located.

No, I havent been able to go back to the dyno to retune the XEDE for all my mods since the original dyno time. (MS CAI, CS DP, Vibrant Exhaust)

I am trying to make an appt for next week.

Once again, if anyone would like to donate $100 to me for said dyno time, I would gladly make 100 dyno graphs for you all.


(edit)
ragindark, I replied to that right after he posted it.

Actually, the XEDE comes with a base tune from BEGI that was was running. The reason my numbers are slightly lower (5-10hp~) is because of the climate difference. Im in Hawaii, BEGI is in texas. We also have slightly lower octane gas available.

TMIC was my only mod. I also did a stock run with JUST the XEDE and the numbers matched up.

[StephanieT]

I wish I could say that getting a hold of the connector was as easy as picking up the phone and ordering them from Tyco. But no dice. These are still proprietary to Mazda for another year or so. If they were so easy to get, everyone would have them by now. We do have the male part of the connector, but not the female. The female portion comes with the entire ECU housing as well. So that will require some modification, once we can get it. We are not being lazy, just trying to cut thru all the red tape. We also need these connectors for the MX5 as well. It is frustrating, but we are making progress.
Stephanie

[palerider]

No, I havent been able to go back to the dyno to retune the XEDE for all my mods since the original dyno time. (MS CAI, CS DP, Vibrant Exhaust)

I am trying to make an appt for next week.

Once again, if anyone would like to donate $100 to me for said dyno time, I would gladly make 100 dyno graphs for you.

$100 seems fair:)
It'll be interesting to see what you get.

[Haltech]

CPE made it quite clear that they have to have these connectors manf'd. I dont see why you guys are busting Stephanies ass on the PnP for Xede.. Same thing applies to them as well. The connectors are not available and have to be sourced elsewhere.

[laloosh]

to the guy who made 275 with the xede...what did you make stock?

[BluMicaR]

I wish I could say that getting a hold of the connector was as easy as picking up the phone and ordering them from Tyco. But no dice. These are still proprietary to Mazda for another year or so. If they were so easy to get, everyone would have them by now. We do have the male part of the connector, but not the female. The female portion comes with the entire ECU housing as well. So that will require some modification, once we can get it. We are not being lazy, just trying to cut thru all the red tape. We also need these connectors for the MX5 as well. It is frustrating, but we are making progress.
Stephanie


I am not a rocket scientist... [Captain Obvious disclaimer alert]

But can't somebody with a little fabrication or artistic ability make a resin mold based on the male connector you have OF the female connector? I don't know what this connector looks like, but of ANY system with male/female connectors one can usually envision or reverse enginner one or the other if they have half of the pair. Is it just the innards of the female connector that are giving everyone so much trouble, and not the housing/body of the part?

Somebody call the Mythbusters! I bet they could fabricate a female connector in no time, then get some knowledgeable people and some wiring manuals... Yeah, I know, I'm just a thinker. :) Ain't never as easy as you 'think' it would be. I just wish SOMEBODY would make a EMS that was plug and play because I want one something fierce, but I am NOT splicing and cutting and taping up wires.

And somebody made a point above about pricing; when Cobb comes they'll be near the cheapest, and PnP - so it seems for me after some more comparison shopping, giving Xede or CPE or SOMEONE else has PnP, if they don't match in price I'm already in the Cobb campground.

[Nutari]

to the guy who made 275 with the xede...what did you make stock?

I made 245whp stock and 260~tq.

[laloosh]

I made 245whp stock and 260~tq.


so how is picking up 30whp a big deal? Im just curious to why every1 thinks this is so special. Once again they raised boost and made power. The end, as for the dyno thats on their website, i simply dont believe it

[BluMicaR]

so how is picking up 30whp a big deal? Im just curious to why every1 thinks this is so special. Once again they raised boost and made power. The end, as for the dyno thats on their website, i simply dont believe it

30whp is a big deal...

[laloosh]

30whp is a big deal...

no when you simply raise the boost and do nothing more. Buy a simple boost controller, you will get 30 safe whp as well.

[BluMicaR]

no when you simply raise the boost and do nothing more. Buy a simple boost controller, you will get 30 safe whp as well.

Oh, I get what you're saying now; I thought you meant, flatly, 30whp is no big deal. (flash)

[Haltech]

I am not a rocket scientist... [Captain Obvious disclaimer alert]

But can't somebody with a little fabrication or artistic ability make a resin mold based on the male connector you have OF the female connector? I don't know what this connector looks like, but of ANY system with male/female connectors one can usually envision or reverse enginner one or the other if they have half of the pair. Is it just the innards of the female connector that are giving everyone so much trouble, and not the housing/body of the part?

Somebody call the Mythbusters! I bet they could fabricate a female connector in no time, then get some knowledgeable people and some wiring manuals... Yeah, I know, I'm just a thinker. :) Ain't never as easy as you 'think' it would be. I just wish SOMEBODY would make a EMS that was plug and play because I want one something fierce, but I am NOT splicing and cutting and taping up wires.

And somebody made a point above about pricing; when Cobb comes they'll be near the cheapest, and PnP - so it seems for me after some more comparison shopping, giving Xede or CPE or SOMEONE else has PnP, if they don't match in price I'm already in the Cobb campground.

Welp you can wait around as long as you like for COBB. Goodluck with that one.

As far as the connectors go, its much easier said than done. Do it yourself and sell em.(blah)

[SwampAss]

so how is picking up 30whp a big deal? Im just curious to why every1 thinks this is so special. Once again they raised boost and made power. The end, as for the dyno thats on their website, i simply dont believe it

that's 30hp untuned.

There are some cars making great power gains with tuned stand alone systems.

I saw someone with 309hp and 364tq with the CPE standback I believe. It's more than the whole "peak hp/tq" thing too. These cars make shit loads more bottom end and midrange tuned. That's where you really feel it.

[Nutari]

so how is picking up 30whp a big deal? Im just curious to why every1 thinks this is so special. Once again they raised boost and made power. The end, as for the dyno thats on their website, i simply dont believe it

wow. (dunno)

[laloosh]

that's 30hp untuned.

There are some cars making great power gains with tuned stand alone systems.

I saw someone with 309hp and 364tq with the CPE standback I believe. It's more than the whole "peak hp/tq" thing too. These cars make shit loads more bottom end and midrange tuned. That's where you really feel it.

umm some1 made 311whp and 36x tq with the stock airbox/test pipe/mbc. What exactly is your point? The only way a standback is needed is when they actaully get rid of the throttle shutting.

[Ferdball]

umm some1 made 311whp and 36x tq with the stock airbox/test pipe/mbc. What exactly is your point? The only way a standback is needed is when they actaully get rid of the throttle shutting.

How much boost?

[laloosh]

18 psi, a simple mbc adds boost in the 1st gear to about 13-14, 2nd on hit 18 and hold it there unlike stock. I am still yet to understand why people buy standback when all they are doing is adding a boost and a tiny bit of fuel. Once some1 figures out how to make power past 6k, then ill buy a stand back untill then ill be happy with a 80 dollar boost controller and a 75 dollar boost cut defender.

[SwampAss]

Having previously had a car that ran with an MBC exclusively and then having aftermarket software, I can honestly say I much preferred the software over the MBC. THe MBC performed erratically during part throttle applications.

As for asking why someone would spend money on software vs. an MBC, that's up to the individual person. If you are happy running your MBC GREAT! Why spend $1000 on software? Got me. Why spend $1000 on stereo equipment? Diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks.

[AutoXRacer]

I'm in for an Xede!!!! Just patiently waiting for PnP...
Add me to the list!!

[StephanieT]

so how is picking up 30whp a big deal? Im just curious to why every1 thinks this is so special. Once again they raised boost and made power. The end, as for the dyno thats on their website, i simply dont believe it
Simply put the Xede does more than raise the boost. It also has more capabilities than anything else out there. It controls fuel, timing, MAP sensor and Boost - ALL from the moment the car is turn. And with no check engine light. Not to mention the injection water spray capability, map switch and OBDII compatibility.

It is not ALL about power. It is making power efficiently. The most power possible at the lowest boost pressure. 288 whp @ 16 psi is pretty darn good when I have seen dyno sheets in the 250's @ 20 psi. An efficient system will lead to longer motor life. Less wear and tear on the engines and better fuel economy.

If you still need dyno sheet proof, shoot me an e-mail I would be happy to send you the Winpep file. It's not like I can alter those or duplicate it elsewhere....
Stephanie

[laloosh]

Simply put the Xede does more than raise the boost. It also has more capabilities than anything else out there. It controls fuel, timing, MAP sensor and Boost - ALL from the moment the car is turn. And with no check engine light. Not to mention the injection water spray capability, map switch and OBDII compatibility.

It is not ALL about power. It is making power efficiently. The most power possible at the lowest boost pressure. 288 whp @ 16 psi is pretty darn good when I have seen dyno sheets in the 250's @ 20 psi. An efficient system will lead to longer motor life. Less wear and tear on the engines and better fuel economy.

If you still need dyno sheet proof, shoot me an e-mail I would be happy to send you the Winpep file. It's not like I can alter those or duplicate it elsewhere....
Stephanie

288whp at 16psi is raising boost. Theres a big difference btwn stock cars peaking 15psi and holding 15psi. my stock car held 13psi by 5500rpm. Controlt he boost and make it linear, and you will gain power.

[Sierra117]

Stephanie, quick question.

Once the Xede PnP is released, will their be downloadable maps? For example, if I buy one and I'm other wise stock, would you offer maps for say, an intake and exhaust? Or should I decide to VTA, would I be able to load up a map for that?

I'm very interested in the Xede after seeing all the results of Xede/PROcede with the BMW 335i's. If downloadable maps were made available, much like the Vishnu PROcede for the 335i, then it would totally seal the deal. For me, at least.

[StephanieT]

Which is only some of what the Xede does. If you make boost linear you still need to adjust fuel and timing or risk the motor going 'boom'.
Stephanie

[laloosh]

Which is only some of what the Xede does. If you make boost linear you still need to adjust fuel and timing or risk the motor going 'boom'.
Stephanie

no, no you dont. unless by adjust you mean take away. if anything you have to remove fuel and increase timing. And obviously running rich with retarded timing is not gonna make you blow up anytime soon

[StephanieT]

Stephanie, quick question.

Once the Xede PnP is released, will their be downloadable maps? For example, if I buy one and I'm other wise stock, would you offer maps for say, an intake and exhaust? Or should I decide to VTA, would I be able to load up a map for that?

I'm very interested in the Xede after seeing all the results of Xede/PROcede with the BMW 335i's. If downloadable maps were made available, much like the Vishnu PROcede for the 335i, then it would totally seal the deall For me, at least.

We have those now. And really, they do not differ too much from the base map. I just do not post them on the web for liability reasons.

I have several people that send me maps and datalogs, I alter them, and return them. All the end user does is load and save the map.
Stephanie
p.s. I grew up in Colleyville. Things have changed alot!!

[StephanieT]

no, no you dont. unless by adjust you mean take away. if anything you have to remove fuel and increase timing. And obviously running rich with retarded timing is not gonna make you blow up anytime soon

You just answered your own statement. I did not say how it needed to be altered, but that it DID need to be altered. And running too rich does create motor problems. Maybe not immediately, but over time, the wear will kill the engine.
Stephanie

[laloosh]

You just answered your own statement. I did not say how it needed to be altered, but that it DID need to be altered. And running too rich does create motor problems. Maybe not immediately, but over time, the wear will kill the engine.
Stephanie

oh boy. Turning up boost will lean you out to begin with. you will still be rich, but leaner then stock. So according to you the stock engine is going to go boom on the stock boost? Seriously im not bashing on it, nor am i praising it, but this does nothign special. it controls fuel, timing, boost, maf/map voltages....just like any other standback out there, excpet this one is more expensive.

[Sierra117]

We have those now. And really, they do not differ too much from the base map. I just do not post them on the web for liability reasons.

I have several people that send me maps and datalogs, I alter them, and return them. All the end user does is load and save the map.
Stephanie
p.s. I grew up in Colleyville. Things have changed alot!!

Is that so? Well, small world, huh?

And that sounds great. Definately count me in once you get the PnP system!

[StephanieT]

oh boy. Turning up boost will lean you out to begin with. you will still be rich, but leaner then stock. So according to you the stock engine is going to go boom on the stock boost?
There is no need to make assumptions or according to's for me. Ask me to spell it out first, otherwise you mislead others as well.

If you alter the boost setting from the way it comes from the factory, then there are changes that must be made to the timing and fuel. The car is programmed in the ECU for a specific fuel, timing, boost level at a specific RPM. If you put 13 psi where there was once 11 psi allowed, the ECU is not programmed for that function. So something else has to do it.

Seriously im not bashing on it, nor am i praising it, but this does nothign special. it controls fuel, timing, boost, maf/map voltages....just like any other standback out there, excpet this one is more expensive
Probably for a reason. There is a whole lot more development put into the Xede than some others out there. If it is truly nothing special, explain in detail what other products can do that the Xede cannot. I would be happy to explain the logic as to why it doesn't do that function, or how it is better.
Stephanie

[laloosh]

There is no need to make assumptions or according to's for me. Ask me to spell it out first, otherwise you mislead others as well.

If you alter the boost setting from the way it comes from the factory, then there are changes that must be made to the timing and fuel. The car is programmed in the ECU for a specific fuel, timing, boost level at a specific RPM. If you put 13 psi where there was once 11 psi allowed, the ECU is not programmed for that function. So something else has to do it.


Probably for a reason. There is a whole lot more development put into the Xede than some others out there. If it is truly nothing special, explain in detail what other products can do that the Xede cannot. I would be happy to explain the logic as to why it doesn't do that function, or how it is better.
Stephanie


first off, turning up the boost under wot will change nothing, how do i know? i did it on my car. The maf compensates for the added air and adds more fuel, its how maf cars work. The problem lies at part throttle boost.

There is nothing this unit can do in regards to tuning that the cpe unit cant. They both have vast control over all the basic parameters....excpet once again this one is about 400 bucks more.

people fail to realize there is only so much you can control. Both top version will control;
timing
fuel
map
maf
boost
throttle
what else is there that makes this so much better than anything else?

[StephanieT]

Need Specifics! Just saying it is more $ does not do much.

I read a post by a CPE employee that says it cannot control fuel at cruise conditions or at idle. Is this true or application specific?
Stephanie

[laloosh]

i dunno, i never really got into either unit. i just know both control the same thing and one is cheaper than the other.

[StephanieT]

And therein lies the confusion. People who do not know specifics are out there making claims about X and Y product. And it is usually not accurate. That is the reason I will never say anything about someone else's product they have not already said themselves. I realize the Xede is new to the Mazda application, but that does not mean the extra money is not justified. There is a way to tune a car for power, and there is a way to do it for efficient power. We prefer efficiency and think that most will also. If not, there are always other things out there.

The standards for efficiency #'s:
Below 8 - Awful
8.0 to 8.49 - OK
8.5 to 9.0 - Good
9.0 or Greater - Excellent

Our Car: 288 whp @ 16 psi - 288/ (16+14.7)=9.382

Dyno Sheet recently posted on Web: Boost level was not specified, so both are listed.
253 whp @ 19 psi - 253/ (19+14.7)=7.508
253 whp @ 15 psi - 253/ (15+14.7)=8.518

If I was tuning a similar car for someone else, I would leave it de-tuned to 15 psi. Better fuel economy, still enough power to feel the difference, and less wear on the engine.
Stephanie

[x'ed]

So you aren't going to justify the 400 dollar price difference, your just going to tell us to take your word for it? I think you should justify it, it seems like gauging. If the best you can come up with is controlling something at idle, I think I will head on over to CP-E.

[StephanieT]

Need Specifics! Just saying it is more $ does not do much.
Like I said, Give me a specific List of what the CPE can do and how it does it and I will compare it. There is not enough info listed on their website. What is the cost per horsepower gained? What is the cost of the CPE unit?

The only things I have read are about the method of Boost control and the lack of fuel control at idle and cruise. The boost control method works, there are advantages and disadvantages. Just like an boost solenoid. Neither is better than the other, but they both work. The lack of fuel control off of idle would not be good. A larger exhaust or downpipe will affect cruise fuel trims and fuel economy. One really needs to be able to adjust that.
Stephanie

[AutoXRacer]

According to CPE's website, the piggyback costs $640; and thats to be hardwired in. If they follow the same setup as the MS6, then you will have to pay an additional $399.85 for the PnP feature... Thats a total of $1039.85!!!

BEGi Xede is $899 and if I read correctly will include PnP...

So who is more expensive...?

(Stephanie, am I correct will my understanding with the pricing of Xede...?)

[x'ed]

Like I said, Give me a specific List of what the CPE can do and how it does it and I will compare it. There is not enough info listed on their website. What is the cost per horsepower gained? What is the cost of the CPE unit?

The only things I have read are about the method of Boost control and the lack of fuel control at idle and cruise. The boost control method works, there are advantages and disadvantages. Just like an boost solenoid. Neither is better than the other, but they both work. The lack of fuel control off of idle would not be good. A larger exhaust or downpipe will affect cruise fuel trims and fuel economy. One really needs to be able to adjust that.
Stephanie

I thought laloosh did, but oh well.

[StephanieT]

I thought laloosh did, but oh well.

I want specific info on how it controls fuel and timing. I have read about the PID boost control. I am pretty sure they tune via fuel pressure. That has it advantages and disadvantages. We have configured the Xede to tune via MAF and Fuel pressure at the same time with no real benefit. How does it control timing? Does it control fuel during closed loop? What are the other features? Map switch, etc... That is the type of info I need.
Stephanie

[laloosh]

ill will most likly be able to help you out by the end of this week. My ems is getting dropped off today by the friendly ups man. I will play with it all week and see how everything works, or at least try and see how everythign works. From what i read this isnt the easiest thing to comprehend as it controls ALOT of things. go to cpe's website, under the speed 6 they have a bunch of screen shots and more info on how things work.

[SAVAGE70]

Can we expect the XEDE PnP to be out by the end of this year? Also could u tell me if the connectors off of a CX7 ECU are the same as the connectors on the MS3 ECU the same? Or would the MS3 ECM connectors be the same as a regular Mazda 3 ECM?

[AutoXRacer]

According to CPE's website, the piggyback costs $640; and thats to be hardwired in. If they follow the same setup as the MS6, then you will have to pay an additional $399.85 for the PnP feature... Thats a total of $1039.85!!!

BEGi Xede is $899 and if I read correctly will include PnP...

So who is more expensive...?

(Stephanie, am I correct will my understanding with the pricing of Xede...?)

Can anyone confirm this...?

[pHeeL tHiZ ViBe]

the rumors hold true to date...but cp-e is smarter than that ;) and the market is small. so i doubt it will turn out like that.

[ssinstaller]

I want specific info on how it controls fuel and timing. I have read about the PID boost control. I am pretty sure they tune via fuel pressure. That has it advantages and disadvantages. We have configured the Xede to tune via MAF and Fuel pressure at the same time with no real benefit. How does it control timing? Does it control fuel during closed loop? What are the other features? Map switch, etc... That is the type of info I need.
Stephanie


The standback a can adjust the maf voltage and fuel pressure in closed and open loop, those adjustmants are made via a voltage multiplier-not based on rpm or tps. The primary and secondary fuel and timing maps are adjusted by an RPM vs. TPS grid--I don't know the actual method they use to effect the fueling changes though.. The timing changes should be maintained during closed loop, but the fueling changes will eventually be adjusted out by the ECM via the long and short term fuel trims(during closed loop driving). I can see this very easily on my motor-if I reset the fuel trims(disconnect the battery) my wideband will read at 14.6~14.7 at idle and cruise, but over the course of about 100~150 miles it will trend twards 14.1~14.0 at cruise and idle(I have replaced and recalibrated my LC-1 sensor, so I attribute the gradually richening AFR to the stock wideband sensor calibration drifting).. Regardless of the feul trims effect on my closed loop running my afrs at WOT are fairly consistant around 11.8 until about 6k where they take a nosedive into the 10'a at redline...

[speed3MPS]

Not sure but is this it. the connectors everyone has been talking about
http://www.bellengineering.net/Images/MiataTurbo/CLIP-DCC_L.jpg

[speed3MPS]

XEDE Engine Management
1990 to 1993 Miata $1599.00 (AFM Based)
1994 to 1997 Miata $1599.00
1999 to 2004 Miata $1599.00
2004-2005 MazdaSpeed Miata $1599.00
Price Includes: XEDE unit, Plug 'n Play Wire Harness for stock ECU, Four Injectors, (440 cc or 550 cc) and Injector Wire Clips.

2005-2006 Mazda MX-5 $899.00
2007 MazdaSpeed 3 $899.00
Price Includes: XEDE Wire Harness, XEDE Unit

[ZooMIN3]

XEDE Engine Management
1990 to 1993 Miata $1599.00 (AFM Based)
1994 to 1997 Miata $1599.00
1999 to 2004 Miata $1599.00
2004-2005 MazdaSpeed Miata $1599.00
Price Includes: XEDE unit, Plug 'n Play Wire Harness for stock ECU, Four Injectors, (440 cc or 550 cc) and Injector Wire Clips.

2005-2006 Mazda MX-5 $899.00
2007 MazdaSpeed 3 $899.00
Price Includes: XEDE Wire Harness, XEDE Unit


Interesting, it's missing the "Plug 'n Play Wire Harness" part for the Speed3....

BRING ON THE XEDE W/PNP STEPH!!! ;-)


Anyways.

I'm waiting patiently for this, so yeah, I just may have this on my Christmas list for santa!! lol

-J

[speed3MPS]

**Right now, the plug 'n play harness is not available for the MS3. We anticipate delivery of the PNP patch harness in late 2007. There has been some confusion between the parts manufacturer and assembler as to whose part it is to sell. Once that is straightened out, the connectors will be made and shipped. **

hoping late 2007 doesnt move to early 2008 then mid 2008

[ZooMIN3]

**Right now, the plug 'n play harness is not available for the MS3. We anticipate delivery of the PNP patch harness in late 2007. There has been some confusion between the parts manufacturer and assembler as to whose part it is to sell. Once that is straightened out, the connectors will be made and shipped. **

hoping late 2007 doesnt move to early 2008 then mid 2008


GARR DAMMIT!! LOL

yeah, hopefully we get it sometime this year?

[AutoXRacer]

Stephanie!!! Come on girl...we are dying to spend some cold hard cash here!!
Start cracking that whip and get the PnP harness out!!!

(2thumbs)(lol2)

[ZooMIN3]

Stephanie!!! Come on girl...we are dying to spend some cold hard cash here!!
Start cracking that whip and get the PnP harness out!!!

(2thumbs)(lol2)

43 days till Christmas!! And counting!! lol No pressure!! (naughty)

lol

[SwampAss]

If no more bumps in the road.. CP-E's will be out early Jan

[Haltech]

Not sure but is this it. the connectors everyone has been talking about
http://www.bellengineering.net/Images/MiataTurbo/CLIP-DCC_L.jpg

Umm if anything, it looks like a damn foglight harness.. Its only missing about another 20 wires or so to be considered a harness, lol.

And steph, why are you tuning at a 9.0 AFR? Try 11.2 instead. 9 is WAY to rich.

[SwampAss]

those are injector plugs

[Jays07MS3]

And steph, why are you tuning at a 9.0 AFR? Try 11.2 instead. 9 is WAY to rich.

Those weren't AFR numbers she was talking about. They were efficiency numbers that they came up with by dividing Horsepower by MAP pressure

The standards for efficiency #'s:
Below 8 - Awful
8.0 to 8.49 - OK
8.5 to 9.0 - Good
9.0 or Greater - Excellent

Our Car: 288 whp @ 16 psi - 288/ (16+14.7)=9.382

Dyno Sheet recently posted on Web: Boost level was not specified, so both are listed.
253 whp @ 19 psi - 253/ (19+14.7)=7.508
253 whp @ 15 psi - 253/ (15+14.7)=8.518

[pHeeL tHiZ ViBe]

who made up those standards?

efficient: 350+whp @ 0 psi heheh ;)

[Haltech]

Those weren't AFR numbers she was talking about. They were efficiency numbers that they came up with by dividing Horsepower by MAP pressure

Efficiency is claimed by horsepower divided by MAP pressure? Are you kidding me? Looks like the 14:7 number is stoch! Youre never going to hit 14:7 in boost and if you do, kaboom!

[laloosh]

lmao

[Haltech]

This whole efficiency thing is bullshit. Bottom line is, tuning. The more parameters you make avail to the customer, the easier the interface and the ability to be plug n play is ALL that is going to matter here.

How does one measure efficiency of a lawn mower since it doesnt have a map sensor? I mean, cmon. This reminds me of a guy who tuned 2 stroke motorcycles in Florida. When he decided to tune boosted ford engines with a fricken Gas Analyzer instead of a wideband, he got a very bad reputation with blowing up 18 vehicles in 2 weeks. He only tuned 18 vehicles, great stats huh?

[fourthmeal]

....The 14.7 is atmospheric pressure I think. So it is atmos. + boost.

[Haltech]

....The 14.7 is atmospheric pressure I think. So it is atmos. + boost.

Ugh, ok, if you say so. You do realize atmospheric pressure changes like, all the time? 14.7 is its weight at sea level and i guarantee you that there are more people above sea level with MS3s than those who are at sea level.

So this whole number scheme needs to be ditched because its hardly accurate. See below:


ript b Height Above Sea Level Static Pressure Standard Temperature
(K) Temperature Lapse Rate
(m) (ft) (pascals) (inHg) (K/m) (K/ft)
0 0 0 101325 29.92126 288.15 -0.0065 -0.0019812
1 11,000 36,089 22632.1 6.683245 216.65 0.0 0.0
2 20,000 65,617 5474.89 1.616734 216.65 0.001 0.0003048
3 32,000 104,987 868.019 0.2563258 228.65 0.0028 0.00085344
4 47,000 154,199 110.906 0.0327506 270.65 0.0 0.0
5 51,000 167,323 66.9389 0.01976704 270.65 -0.0028 -0.00085344
6 71,000 232,940 3.95642 0.00116833 214.65 -0.002 -0.0006096

[fourthmeal]

No, no...I agree with you. I'm just saying that I think it was atmospheric pressure and not stoich. in regards to what the "14.7" meant with the "formula." The mysterious formula, at that.

I was just addressing the possibility of it not being what you thought (which you thought may be stoich), but I don't agree with the formula.

Ugh, ok, if you say so. You do realize atmospheric pressure changes like, all the time? 14.7 is its weight at sea level and i guarantee you that there are more people above sea level with MS3s than those who are at sea level.

So this whole number scheme needs to be ditched because its hardly accurate. See below:


ript b Height Above Sea Level Static Pressure Standard Temperature
(K) Temperature Lapse Rate
(m) (ft) (pascals) (inHg) (K/m) (K/ft)
0 0 0 101325 29.92126 288.15 -0.0065 -0.0019812
1 11,000 36,089 22632.1 6.683245 216.65 0.0 0.0
2 20,000 65,617 5474.89 1.616734 216.65 0.001 0.0003048
3 32,000 104,987 868.019 0.2563258 228.65 0.0028 0.00085344
4 47,000 154,199 110.906 0.0327506 270.65 0.0 0.0
5 51,000 167,323 66.9389 0.01976704 270.65 -0.0028 -0.00085344
6 71,000 232,940 3.95642 0.00116833 214.65 -0.002 -0.0006096

[pHeeL tHiZ ViBe]

haha i'm glad i'm not the only one who saw that as wack!! LOL

[StephanieT]

The numbers to refer to atmospheric pressure at sea level, not fuel conditions. If you think efficiency is BS, I suggest that you ask ALL the turbo experts their opinions. And by experts I mean people who invented the turbos and race car engineers. Tuning is the key to efficiency. Ever heard of a turbo's efficiency range??? (homework)
Stephanie

[desperado-c]

The numbers to refer to atmospheric pressure at sea level, not fuel conditions. If you think efficiency is BS, I suggest that you ask ALL the turbo experts their opinions. And by experts I mean people who invented the turbos and race car engineers. Tuning is the key to efficiency. Ever heard of a turbo's efficiency range??? (homework)
Stephanie

Stephanie, I think you need to defer to the experts on this site and stop spouting off all this crazy stuff Corky Bell has put in your head. The guys here have wa-a-a-a-a-y more turbo tuning experience and knowledge than Corky, or any of your so-called "inventors" and "race car engineers" for that matter.

[Haltech]

The numbers to refer to atmospheric pressure at sea level, not fuel conditions. If you think efficiency is BS, I suggest that you ask ALL the turbo experts their opinions. And by experts I mean people who invented the turbos and race car engineers. Tuning is the key to efficiency. Ever heard of a turbo's efficiency range??? (homework)
Stephanie

Ever heard of properly measuring turbo efficiency? You cant base it off atompheric pressure, thats for sure because that leaves the guy in new mexico at 6500 ft elevation with worse efficiency than a stock tune!

Wanna measure efficiency? Measure by dyno graphs showing the power increase with the most efficient air/fuel ratio, which would be 11.1 to 11.3 for the street and 12.0 - 12.2 on race fuel at the track. Toss in IAT temperatures before and after the intercooler and measure EGT temps. It doesnt get an simpler than that. Results speak for efficiency when youre laying down more horsepower than the competitors with lower temps and lower a/ ratio's.

How is this done? More parameters for the tuner to change. Xede needs to add high pressure fuel pump parameters to their software. This is going to be the key to big turbo guys in the future.

And just for future knowledge, im not new to the world of tuning my own vehicles or owning force induction vehicles, so please dont treat me as if im stupid. Thanks.

[Nutari]

Stephanie, I think you need to defer to the experts on this site and stop spouting off all this crazy stuff Corky Bell has put in your head. The guys here have wa-a-a-a-a-y more turbo tuning experience and knowledge than Corky, or any of your so-called "inventors" and "race car engineers" for that matter.



Whoa whoa.. there is NO ONE on these forums that has more knowledge than Corky Bell.

The best of the best on these forums have all re-read this book several times.

http://www.amazon.com/Maximum-Boost-Turbocharger-Engineering-Performance/dp/0837601606/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1195155323&sr=8-1
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51GYT1RXD5L._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-dp-500-arrow,TopRight,45,-64_OU01_AA240_SH20_.jpg

[Jays07MS3]

^^ Sarcasm claims another one (lol2)

[Nutari]

^^ Sarcasm claims another one (lol2)

DOH!

internet sarcasm always gets me.

(rlaugh)

[fourthmeal]

Ok, now I'm lost. Which part was sarcasm?

[StephanieT]

Wanna measure efficiency? Measure by dyno graphs showing the power increase with the most efficient air/fuel ratio, .... Results speak for efficiency when youre laying down more horsepower than the competitors with lower temps and lower a/ ratio's.
Laying down more power than the competitor is nice and all. MY MAIN POINT IS -if one car can make the same power at a lower boost level - therefore resulting in a higher efficiency number - there is a clear winner in the tuning war. And a clear winner in who's engine will last longer.

14.7 is an accurate number for us at sea level or close to. It is a generic formula for us. And totally unfair to compare a car at sea level w/ one at altitude. If you want to calculate the efficiency bring me a car and we compare side by side. We'll calculate the efficiency based on this method, and the brake specific fuel consumption.

How is this done? More parameters for the tuner to change. Xede needs to add high pressure fuel pump parameters to their software. This is going to be the key to big turbo guys in the future.
If you want more parameters, go with a standalone EMS. Some standalone's out there are awesome and create even better efficiency #'s. But for some that is not practical and/or do not have the time to pursue it. Some people do, and more power to 'em.

The Xede has already added the tuning via fuel pressure - to no additional benefit. But it is there none the less. Maybe it will be more helpful when the MAF sensor has maxed out, but that has not occurred yet.
Stephanie

[pHeeL tHiZ ViBe]

i agree with haltech 100% on that. points=clear & fact. okay thats all i'm sayin.

[Haltech]

Laying down more power than the competitor is nice and all. MY MAIN POINT IS -if one car can make the same power at a lower boost level - therefore resulting in a higher efficiency number - there is a clear winner in the tuning war. And a clear winner in who's engine will last longer.

14.7 is an accurate number for us at sea level or close to. It is a generic formula for us. And totally unfair to compare a car at sea level w/ one at altitude. If you want to calculate the efficiency bring me a car and we compare side by side. We'll calculate the efficiency based on this method, and the brake specific fuel consumption.


If you want more parameters, go with a standalone EMS. Some standalone's out there are awesome and create even better efficiency #'s. But for some that is not practical and/or do not have the time to pursue it. Some people do, and more power to 'em.

The Xede has already added the tuning via fuel pressure - to no additional benefit. But it is there none the less. Maybe it will be more helpful when the MAF sensor has maxed out, but that has not occurred yet.
Stephanie

Why stand alone EMS? I can tap the same amount of parameters in a Chip on a Ford system as those can with a stand alone. Perhaps Begi is too lazy to sit down and bring more parameters to the table than. Bottom line is, i dont need a standalone setup to accomplish the same thing via chip or flash. Mazda's ECU's shouldnt either but thats the difference in supporting one companies piggyback system that works harder to give the tuner what he needs, versus the other doing it half ass and saying their system is more efficient without proof.

Adding fuel pressure is not going to solve the MAF pegging problem. All you need is a new calibrated meter and your problem is solved. The answer lies in the sensor itself and the size of the sample tube. You take the max voltage settings along with the long and short fuel trims and use that as the short end voltage on the new meter. You basically double what you started out with and the added high number is now your high threshold on the meter ( IE 4.7+ )

Since the new high capacity pumps are coming to the table, the MAFs will peg with big turbos, its just a matter of time and the fuel pressure parameters are going to help those who run them.

If i was working in supporting an EMS setup, i would be looking at the future. The worse case scenerio type of future. Plan on the meters pegging and plan on fuel tuning for larger turbo's. Come up with a meter solution now, instead of later. Go plug and play and bam, you just now won and have the market.

[altspace]

Am I too late? Oh wait.....

[StephanieT]

Why stand alone EMS? I can tap the same amount of parameters in a Chip on a Ford system as those can with a stand alone. Perhaps Begi is too lazy to sit down and bring more parameters to the table than. Bottom line is, i dont need a standalone setup to accomplish the same thing via chip or flash. .
I agree it is not needed. The Xede accomplished plenty without being a full standalone. I think we are controlling the needed paramameters. The only other speculated item that needs to be controlled is the throttle plate (which we are working on). So where does lazy come into play?

doing it half ass and saying their system is more efficient without proof.
to play devil's advocate, is there proof to the contrary? I would be happy to do a side by side comparison, at our expense here. That is the only true way to measure differences.

Adding fuel pressure is not going to solve the MAF pegging problem.
No it won't. But the MAF has not pegged it's limit yet. I can tune via fuel pressure, MAF, or both.

Since the new high capacity pumps are coming to the table, the MAFs will peg with big turbos, its just a matter of time and the fuel pressure parameters are going to help those who run them.
True. Some people have no problem with it. I have visions of busted fuel lines and fires. Yes, that seems unreasonable, until you have been in that situation. Though it will probably never happen.....
Stephanie

[Haltech]

I agree it is not needed. The Xede accomplished plenty without being a full standalone. I think we are controlling the needed paramameters. The only other speculated item that needs to be controlled is the throttle plate (which we are working on). So where does lazy come into play?

Lazy is not having the same amount of parameters as your competitor but saying your setup is more efficient. These guys want proof that yours is more efficient. Provide that for them.


to play devil's advocate, is there proof to the contrary? I would be happy to do a side by side comparison, at our expense here. That is the only true way to measure differences.


The two cars have to be idenitical, right down to the oil and fuel used. The odds? Probably not going to happen. As time goes on and people are using brand X against your setup with Dyno's with the same mods, you may see whos system is tuning better. I dont think this is happening until the little Cobb craze is over with, along with CPE's pnp vs yours.


No it won't. But the MAF has not pegged it's limit yet. I can tune via fuel pressure, MAF, or both.


When its pegged youre not going to be able to do this. So why not develop the work around now? Its coming, you know it is. Make the product better now.

True. Some people have no problem with it. I have visions of busted fuel lines and fires. Yes, that seems unreasonable, until you have been in that situation. Though it will probably never happen.....
Stephanie

The fuel lines are going to be fine. Look at the VW/Audi community as proof. I think this is over reacting. The MS3/6 is starved for fuel as is but Mazda didnt want to spend the extra money for a bigger pump.

[ZooMIN3]

this is turing into an egg head discussion! lol you guys rock!!

[AutoXRacer]

I don't know much about tuning and where BEGi wants to go with their Xede.

But, what if BEGi just wants to target the buyers I fit in...?

I just want a piggy back that I don't have to mess with...just take it to a local tuner, spend an hour or so fine tuning for my conditions and there you have it.

50-70 HP gain at the wheels, hopefully more gains in torque and end of story.

I want to retain my stock (or close to it as possible) reliability and drivability... I'm not looking to do major upgrades like turbo, fuel injectors, fuel pump, etc...

All I'm looking for is a simple bolt on or in this case plug in...

Anyone take that into consideration...?

[fourthmeal]

(cricket)(cricket)(cricket)

j/k...


I think a tuning solution is a tuning solution, honestly. Whether it be AP, Xede, or CP-E, as long as you can adjust the necessary parameters then it should suffice when you upgrade this, that, or nothing at all.

[desperado-c]

I don't know much about tuning and where BEGi wants to go with their Xede.

But, what if BEGi just wants to target the buyers I fit in...?

I just want a piggy back that I don't have to mess with...just take it to a local tuner, spend an hour or so fine tuning for my conditions and there you have it.

50-70 HP gain at the wheels, hopefully more gains in torque and end of story.

....

You're not really expecting to get a 50-70 whp with just an ECU mod, are you? I'm pretty sure Stephanie said that 288 whp dyno was done with a completely open airbox (not even the filter), whereas the stock dyno had airbox lid closed. CPE is saying 30-35 for the Standback and I think Nutari got 40 or so with his Xede.

But, I agree, if you're not going to do anything else to the car, the Xede's gonna be fine. Especially if they eventually ship it with PnP connector's for $900. I can tell you that it definitely pulls like crazy with their airbox and FMIC.

[x'ed]

God I love the internet, people like Haltech know how to technically explain the shit me and laloosh were saying on page one.

[laloosh]

im just fighting a loosing battle in every bullshit post on here. Im at the point where i dont care, mazda boards are just filled with crap and useless information. The venders seem to rule the boards....it should be the other way around.

btw what intake should i go with? How about a blow off valve?

[pHeeL tHiZ ViBe]

*

[laloosh]

oh god, i was joking.

[pHeeL tHiZ ViBe]

haha. i didn't even look who posted that ;). i wouldn't have replied rofl

[Haltech]

im just fighting a loosing battle in every bullshit post on here. Im at the point where i dont care, mazda boards are just filled with crap and useless information. The venders seem to rule the boards....it should be the other way around.

btw what intake should i go with? How about a blow off valve?

Im not sure, something off a focus perhaps? lol

[funkyman]

im just fighting a loosing battle in every bullshit post on here. Im at the point where i dont care, mazda boards are just filled with crap and useless information. The venders seem to rule the boards....it should be the other way around.

btw what intake should i go with? How about a blow off valve?

Even if it were true and maybe right,but there is nothing you can do about it because that is how the world we live in today is my friend.(outie)

[AutoXRacer]

You're not really expecting to get a 50-70 whp with just an ECU mod, are you? I'm pretty sure Stephanie said that 288 whp dyno was done with a completely open airbox (not even the filter), whereas the stock dyno had airbox lid closed. CPE is saying 30-35 for the Standback and I think Nutari got 40 or so with his Xede.

According to BEGi website, they yielded 66.11 HP and 80.39 FT-LBS just from adding the Xede.

So yes, I am expecting similar gains. Am I foolish to expect these gains?
Is there a reason to believe this is a false claim?

2007 MazdaSpeed 3
Xede only

Stock vs. Xede:

[desperado-c]

According to BEGi website, they yielded 66.11 HP and 80.39 FT-LBS just from adding the Xede.

So yes, I am expecting similar gains. Am I foolish to expect these gains?
Is there a reason to believe this is a false claim?

2007 MazdaSpeed 3
Xede only

Stock vs. Xede:

I'd go with Nutari's dyno as a better indicator, since I'm pretty sure the BEGI results are with the airbox completely open:

http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2958543&postcount=3

Like I said, CPE is saying 30-35, Nutari's was about 35. Maybe your's will be higher than Nutari's if you're in a less humid place than Hawaii.

[AutoXRacer]

We'll just have to see when and if this thing ever gets released in PnP...

[StephanieT]

You're not really expecting to get a 50-70 whp with just an ECU mod, are you? I'm pretty sure Stephanie said that 288 whp dyno was done with a completely open airbox (not even the filter), whereas the stock dyno had airbox lid closed.
Air filter was installed. I have seen 80+ hp gains with an Xede only on a BMW. It can be done.
Stephanie

[Sierra117]

Air filter was installed. I have seen 80+ hp gains with an Xede only on a BMW. It can be done.
Stephanie

335i+Vishnu PROcede=FTMFW.

[StephanieT]

It was before the Procede was released. No doubt, it works well too. Nice cars!
Stephanie

[AutoXRacer]

PnP status...?

[x'ed]

pipe dream

[Captain KRM P5]

Pnp harnesses are being test fitted to cars this weekend, however only for the speed6 at this time

[Sierra117]

How different is the harness? And any word on pricing?

[Captain KRM P5]

i was told today to expect about $200 retail for the PnP harness on mazdaspeed6s. the harnesses and plugs are radically different on the mazdaspeed3.

[Sierra117]

Crud. So its $200 for the harness and then add in the cost of the unit, asuming pricing is the same for the Speed3? If you can get this all set up before Christmas, you will be my new hero! If not...I'll still go to you for everything, lol.

[Captain KRM P5]

i would bet on pricing being the same but i don't forsee a speed3 harness making it before the holidays.

[Haltech]

Well the MS6 is one step closer. What about the MS3 ETA?

[Captain KRM P5]

early next year if all goes well

[desperado-c]

Air filter was installed. I have seen 80+ hp gains with an Xede only on a BMW. It can be done.
Stephanie

Okay, Stephanie, open airbox or closed this time? And what what was the stock displacement and hp? The MS3 is already putting out 115 bhp/liter. Getting another 25 to 35 bhp/liter with just an ECU mod is going to be a lot more difficult than it would be on a less highly tuned engine.

I couldn't find any other MS3/6s with the XEDE that have dynoed except one MS6 on Mazda 6 Club (jcgemt2003). He put down 268whp/300tq on a Dynojet using the base tune shipped with the unit and a CPE CAI and a custom TBE.

So, for the sake of argument let's assume he would have dynoed 220hp when he was completely stock using a less generous Dynojet than the one you guy's used. That would be a very impressive increase of 50 hp . . . with a CAI and a TBE. FWIW it's another data point that's not a 50-70 hp increase with just an ECU mod.

[Sierra117]

Okay, Stephanie, open airbox or closed this time? And what what was the stock displacement and hp? The MS3 is already putting out 115 bhp/liter. Getting another 25 to 35 bhp/liter with just an ECU mod is going to be a lot more difficult than it would be on a less highly tuned engine.

BMW 335i, 3.0L Inline 6 Twin Turbo. When they first came out with the XEDE, they were putting down about 320 at the wheels with more torque. Last time I looked into it, after switching to the "PROcede", Vishnu was about to offer a package of just a PROcede box (XEDE with more plugs basically) that would put down around 380-400 (I know is a big spread, but it was still in the tuning stage) at the wheels in both HP and TQ.

Bone stock, 335is are dynoing around the 270-280 mark. Thats a 100 wheel horsepower increase. From nothing more than a little PnP Interceptor.

I swear, this forum...

Standback/AP<->Everyone else
(bj)

[desperado-c]

BMW 335i, 3.0L Inline 6 Twin Turbo. When they first came out with the XEDE, they were putting down about 320 at the wheels with more torque. Last time I looked into it, after switching to the "PROcede", Vishnu was about to offer a package of just a PROcede box (XEDE with more plugs basically) that would put down around 380-400 (I know is a big spread, but it was still in the tuning stage) at the wheels in both HP and TQ.

Bone stock, 335is are dynoing around the 270-280 mark. Thats a 100 wheel horsepower increase. From nothing more than a little PnP Interceptor.

I swear, this forum...

Standback/AP<->Everyone else
(bj)

What do you mean by the "this forum" comment? Personally, I have no axe to grind against XEDE/PROcede/whatever. I suspect that I am like many on this forum in that I would probably opt for whichever EMS beats the others to offering PnP at an affordable price. But you have to compare apples to apples, stock to stock, mod to mod, Dynojet to Dynojet, etc., when throwing out figures. If you're gonna talk about hp increases in engines with different displacements, you need to look at hp/liter to make a valid comparison.

So, back to the BMW with the 80 whp increase Stephanie mentions and how it compares to a 50-70 whp claim for the MS3. Sticking with the manufacturer's bhp rating, a stock 335i is rated at 300 bhp or 100hp/liter. It's got to be a lot easier to bring that engine up to 131 bhp/liter (claimed 80 whp / .85 powertrain loss / 3 liter displacement = 31.3 bhp increase) than it is to bring the MS3 up from 114 to 140-160 bhp/liter (using the same formula for the claimed 50 to 70 whp increase).

[Vengure]

I admit I know next to nothing about turbo car tuning. However from what I've read these units are piggy backing off the ecu to tune the cars to yeild a better performance without worrying about a ecu flash being detected by the dealer. Why doesn't one company come out with a highly tunable ecu replacement that you can basically swap for performance. I know the costs would be high but overall no extra wiring and lots options and you could swap back for warranty work. Maybe I making a fool of my self but it was an idea. I realize that if you you tune your aftermarket ecu for your new high pressure fuel pumps and larger turbo's you can't ever use the stock ecu again but when you go that far you already know you've voided your warranty.

[Haltech]

I admit I know next to nothing about turbo car tuning. However from what I've read these units are piggy backing off the ecu to tune the cars to yeild a better performance without worrying about a ecu flash being detected by the dealer. Why doesn't one company come out with a highly tunable ecu replacement that you can basically swap for performance. I know the costs would be high but overall no extra wiring and lots options and you could swap back for warranty work. Maybe I making a fool of my self but it was an idea. I realize that if you you tune your aftermarket ecu for your new high pressure fuel pumps and larger turbo's you can't ever use the stock ecu again but when you go that far you already know you've voided your warranty.

Thats simple, they have to add everything in there for other systems that ECU controls besides the engine. Can be very costly and problematic. Systems like that already exist but they will only control the engine, aka FAST system. Paint o tune but theres more power on tap. Generally considered racing only applications.

Piggy backs are the solution for now, that is, if the MS3/6 catches on and gain momentum with more of these engines installed in other MS vehicles in the future. Everyone seems to be on the fence as who will have the best tuning solution when PnP systems come out. For me, its who has the best PnP setup with the most parameters i can tap, with ease of use.

[Vengure]

Thats simple, they have to add everything in there for other systems that ECU controls besides the engine. Can be very costly and problematic. Systems like that already exist but they will only control the engine, aka FAST system. Paint o tune but theres more power on tap. Generally considered racing only applications.

Piggy backs are the solution for now, that is, if the MS3/6 catches on and gain momentum with more of these engines installed in other MS vehicles in the future. Everyone seems to be on the fence as who will have the best tuning solution when PnP systems come out. For me, its who has the best PnP setup with the most parameters i can tap, with ease of use.

Yea I agree with you I would want the most accurate tuning possible with being able to dial it in with exact parameters while being easy use dont get me wrong I suppose I want it all but who doesnt when your the one buying it :)

[fourthmeal]

Exactly. Our computer controls everything from the engine as well as the health of the CAN-BUS wiring of the entire car, and that communication includes the stability control, ABS, etc. The CAN-BUS runs it all, and then runs into the ECU. This is a LOT for an aftermarket to emulate, and they run the very high risk of messing something up that can kill you (could you imagine if the code for the stability control got goofed up?!) The manufacturers spend MILLIONS getting it right. A retune via the AP option (in the future) or a piggyback both seem like viable alternatives to control just the things we need to within the engine management system. No need to touch the other stuff.

[Speedy3]

Side note. The mere fact that any aftermarket solution is interfacing with the ECU, means that there is a potential "of messing something up that can kill you". It doesn't matter if it is a piggy-back, inline or replacement chip, a full regression test or ATP would need to be performed to ensure that the entire system has the same expected behaviour as before and the only way to do that is to know the complete functionality and equations inside the manufacturer's SW.

[Sierra117]

That sounds like alot of math...

[Haltech]

Side note. The mere fact that any aftermarket solution is interfacing with the ECU, means that there is a potential "of messing something up that can kill you". It doesn't matter if it is a piggy-back, inline or replacement chip, a full regression test or ATP would need to be performed to ensure that the entire system has the same expected behaviour as before and the only way to do that is to know the complete functionality and equations inside the manufacturer's SW.

Well i dont necessarily agree with you here. The only damage a engine management mod would do is blow your motor. It certainly isnt going to kill you. You cant tap into the ABS system to work some magic on your brakes and such. Ive been modifying engine parameters since the early 90s and never heard or seen any evidence of aftermarket tuning being the cause of a persons death. Now, we cant control the idiot who points his car into on coming traffic or trees., driving like an idiot in rain or snow, now can we?

[Speedy3]

I was just ellaborating on the previous post. Coming from a background of Microchip Design (ASIC), Systems of Systems design, Performance Analysis and Test and Integration, my intent was to remind people that until a system and its interfaces is COMPLETELY tested, there is no way you can predict with 100% certainty that any particular subsystem won't incurr unexpected behaviour in the whole system.

As for the ABS brake example, how do you know for sure that the device installed doesn't interfere in any way with the data going to the ABS controller? You can deduce that it won't based on your knowledge of your system, but that doesn't ensure that you won't have any anomalous failure modes in the whole system. Be careful, major companies for many years have experienced unpredicted behaviours in systems that resulted from undetected failure modes. For example, Darkstar failed and crashed on its second takeoff due to inadequate SW testing. Changes were made in one box and the system wasn't adequately tested to find the problem that caused the crash.

My 2 cents....

[Haltech]

I was just ellaborating on the previous post. Coming from a background of Microchip Design (ASIC), Systems of Systems design, Performance Analysis and Test and Integration, my intent was to remind people that until a system and its interfaces is COMPLETELY tested, there is no way you can predict with 100% certainty that any particular subsystem won't incurr unexpected behaviour in the whole system.

As for the ABS brake example, how do you know for sure that the device installed doesn't interfere in any way with the data going to the ABS controller? You can deduce that it won't based on your knowledge of your system, but that doesn't ensure that you won't have any anomalous failure modes in the whole system. Be careful, major companies for many years have experienced unpredicted behaviours in systems that resulted from undetected failure modes. For example, Darkstar failed and crashed on its second takeoff due to inadequate SW testing. Changes were made in one box and the system wasn't adequately tested to find the problem that caused the crash.

My 2 cents....

Why are you comparing an aircraft to a car? Aircraft have a hell of a lot more going on inside than an automobile. Secondly, you're tapping the pinouts on the harness that goes strictly to engine management, not abs, climate control, traction control, etc. If you want to get really technical, same can be said with people modifying their stereos or nav units. I think your point is really ridiculous and you're letting your text books get the better of you. Like most engineers, they cant lead a group... when you throw Murphy in their face, they freak out because the book told them something else. Your're over analyzing this device...

I work in the Nuclear industry and deal with people of your caliber all the time. Its always a knee jerk reaction with them when common sense comes into play. Take a chill pill and relax.

[Speedy3]

Why are you comparing an aircraft to a car? Aircraft have a hell of a lot more going on inside than an automobile. Secondly, you're tapping the pinouts on the harness that goes strictly to engine management, not abs, climate control, traction control, etc. If you want to get really technical, same can be said with people modifying their stereos or nav units. I think your point is really ridiculous and you're letting your text books get the better of you. Like most engineers, they cant lead a group... when you throw Murphy in their face, they freak out because the book told them something else. Your're over analyzing this device...

I work in the Nuclear industry and deal with people of your caliber all the time. Its always a knee jerk reaction with them when common sense comes into play. Take a chill pill and relax.

The difference between me and the ppl you talk about (or try to compare me to) is that I can take a chill pill and relax. I just openned an ice-cold beer and am feeling relaxed.

My point was to play devil's advocate and from your response, i'm successful. So, just remember, your idea of common sense may look like idiocy to someone else.....

Cheers.

[Speedy3]

Why are you comparing an aircraft to a car? Aircraft have a hell of a lot more going on inside than an automobile.

Oh and by the way, You ask why I compare an aircraft to a car? Actually, cars now days have more, higher technology than the average aircrat and the safety factor in the automobile industry is much higher than in aircraft. Structural design in a car has a safety factor higher than 2.5 whereas in an aircraft, because of weight, has a safety factor of less than 2. Also, getting new technology approved for an aircraft takes much more red tape than a car, which results in an out-dated design(thank the FAA for commercial and the government for military) which is proven, but limited. Look at the space shuttle which could use some high performance AMD or intel processors, but still uses old style 8086 technology. Current military aircraft use CAN busses just like cars for subsystem controller communications, but the version lags behind the automobile industry. Commercial arcraft use ARINC 429 standard communications, which are VERY outdated and limited. So, yea, I am comparing cars to aircraft, because cars are the new benchmark in reliability of those systems.

[Sierra117]

Yeah, but if you screw up the ECU control of the anti lock brake system, I think the results will be slightly less catastrophic than screwing with the aerodynamic control surfaces of an F-22.

[Haltech]

Oh and by the way, You ask why I compare an aircraft to a car? Actually, cars now days have more, higher technology than the average aircrat and the safety factor in the automobile industry is much higher than in aircraft. Structural design in a car has a safety factor higher than 2.5 whereas in an aircraft, because of weight, has a safety factor of less than 2. Also, getting new technology approved for an aircraft takes much more red tape than a car, which results in an out-dated design(thank the FAA for commercial and the government for military) which is proven, but limited. Look at the space shuttle which could use some high performance AMD or intel processors, but still uses old style 8086 technology. Current military aircraft use CAN busses just like cars for subsystem controller communications, but the version lags behind the automobile industry. Commercial arcraft use ARINC 429 standard communications, which are VERY outdated and limited. So, yea, I am comparing cars to aircraft, because cars are the new benchmark in reliability of those systems.

Explain to me how you would benefit from using an intel or amd processor onboard opposed to a stable, low voltage 8086/8088 chip that requires no heatsink, no northbridge chipset, no southbridge chipset, easily failing ddr2 memory, higher latency bus to run basically an os lighter than dos? I dont think you want BETA hardware stuffed into a plane at 30,000 feet now do ya? They are already seeing the limitation using tail pieces made of carbon fiber.

A car doesnt have to run some way out nav system, nor does it have to have a series of hydraulics on board, compensate for extreme elevation with adjustable cabin pressure, extreme weather, wind, etc. You're comparing apples to oranges.

[Speedy3]

Explain to me how you would benefit from using an intel or amd processor onboard opposed to a stable, low voltage 8086/8088 chip that requires no heatsink, no northbridge chipset, no southbridge chipset, easily failing ddr2 memory, higher latency bus to run basically an os lighter than dos? I dont think you want BETA hardware stuffed into a plane at 30,000 feet now do ya? They are already seeing the limitation using tail pieces made of carbon fiber.

A car doesnt have to run some way out nav system, nor does it have to have a series of hydraulics on board, compensate for extreme elevation with adjustable cabin pressure, extreme weather, wind, etc. You're comparing apples to oranges.

We shouldn't be jacking this thread......Yes, it is apples to oranges, but my original point was that you can't forsee the effects of adding another system to the car without a complete and rigorous test, which requires knowing the internal, functional workings.

[AutoXRacer]

Any updates on Xede PnP...?
So far there are estimates for the first quarter of 2008...

[x'ed]

Thats it.