Water/Methanol Injection, Anyone Use It?

[mSHOCKERp]

Just like the topic implies, does anyone use water/methanol injection on their MSP? My friend is a VW guy and it is pretty popular with them, it seems like a win/win honestly. I don't want rediculous power but I do want to run some good power (200whp) with some supporting mods and without worrying about my engine popping. Here is what I have done so far to the engine:

- Custom FMIC and Hardpiping
- 3" Full Custom Turbo Back Exhaust with Corksport S-Pipe
- Forge BOV (might switch out soon)
- Denso IK22 Iridium Plugs

I'd like to run 10-12 psi daily and without worry, right now I'm at 8.5 and I haven't adjusted the boost, just from the mods. Thanks for any suggestions and comments. I'll include some pics for views:)

Mike

[Kagymp5]

your going to be really pushing the engine with anything above 10psi on stock internals...

[Maxx Mazda]

JVJ Civil ran an Aquamist system on his whip I believe...

[Professor MSP]

I run an Engine Run-up system. It consists of a Coolingmist vari-cooler progressive controller, Shurflo 150 psi pump, checkvalve, 303 cc/minute injector, filter, and some tubing. I run a mix of 25% ethanol, 25% methanol, and 50% distilled water.

My car performs noticably better with the system, but I have yet to exploit its full capabilities, as I cannot seem to find a local Unichip tuner to optimze the tune with the alcohol/water injection system in place.

[69RMSP]

pm mspjeff :)

[GhostMercury]

hmm if you didnt have a unichip what would you use to controll the system

[69RMSP]

jeff was just using a afc


hmm if you didnt have a unichip what would you use to controll the system


obviosuly not to control the meth

[mSHOCKERp]

Thanks for the quick replies. So the general consensus so far is that 12 psi may be too much, and I should get management or at least a piggyback before doing this? Sorry I'm kind of lost on this one, would 10psi be better? Thanks for any other info guys/gals.

Mike

[GhostMercury]

just get a dsm afc from protegegarage.com and a single runner intak mani from them too and you should be around 200whp at 8psi

[GhostMercury]

jeff was just using a afc




obviosuly not to control the meth

so then what do you control the meth with

[Fudgie]

Its a self contained system activiated by boost level I believe.

[Maxx Mazda]

The DSM AFC I believe has an output you can have triggered at "x" psi of boost. ust hook it up to close the relay for the meth injection and you're set!

[GhostMercury]

The DSM AFC I believe has an output you can have triggered at "x" psi of boost. ust hook it up to close the relay for the meth injection and you're set!

we should get a write up on this

[69RMSP]

someone should setup a methe kit so that you would have a high boost setting then enjects meth at a certain psi eg 12 and running 8 psi on a lower setting with no meth :P

[69RMSP]

honeslty I dont remember how he has it setup but he was running it for awhile. He had it spraying into the coldpipe. I think I have that pipe in my garage actully lol...


so then what do you control the meth with

[GhostMercury]

id rather just set it up so i can flip a switch to turn it on for when i am STOMPING on it. and switch it off to go on my way with normal driving

[GhostMercury]

i think ken at pg or one of the other AMM should set up an AFFORDABLE kit.

[Maxx Mazda]

id rather just set it up so i can flip a switch to turn it on for when i am STOMPING on it. and switch it off to go on my way with normal driving

An output from your AFC would do that for you... You don't wanna control it yourself.

[GhostMercury]

didn't i use all of the wires coming from the afc while installing it?

[Professor MSP]

hmm if you didnt have a unichip what would you use to controll the system

My Unichip does not control the alcohol/water injection system, but I believe that it could in the hands of an experienced tuner.

The Vari-cool control module controls the injection of the fluid based on psi or MAF readings (or both). It has a minimum psi point at which spraying starts (user selectable), a maximum psi point at which spraying reaches its maximum flow rate (also user selectable), and a "tune" setting that is controlled by the user and determines the maximum flow rate of the high pressure pump. You may want to go to www.coolingmist.com for a more thorough explanation of the functioning of the progressive controller.

Hope this helps some.

[Fudgie]

Do you have any pics of your set-up?







My Unichip does not control the alcohol/water injection system, but I believe that it could in the hands of an experienced tuner.

The Vari-cool control module controls the injection of the fluid based on psi or MAF readings (or both). It has a minimum psi point at which spraying starts (user selectable), a maximum psi point at which spraying reaches its maximum flow rate (also user selectable), and a "tune" setting that is controlled by the user and determines the maximum flow rate of the high pressure pump. You may want to go to www.coolingmist.com for a more thorough explanation of the functioning of the progressive controller.

Hope this helps some.

[Maxx Mazda]

didn't i use all of the wires coming from the afc while installing it?

Do you have the V2?

[GhostMercury]

nope version one

[Nvr2old34]

Not sure if my feedback will help here because I drive a different car, but I run alcohol injection in mine. The alcohol system is automatic and sprays only when I hit a predetermined boost level. At 20psi the system starts spraying up to 26psi.

The control box is mounted in my car and has three lights. One is for armed which hopefully is always on when the car is on. The second is for spraying, so whenever you are above your predetermined boost level that light will blink fast. The last light is just a low-level light. Time to add more alcohol!

Not sure if your constraints are just what the block can handle or if you need a higher-octane level to run more boost without knock. If the higher-octane level for more boost is the issue, alcohol will be a great add!

It's probably the best mod for the money I've done to date.

Mike

[GhostMercury]

is your setup made for your car. or is it a kit for any car?

[Nvr2old34]

is your setup made for your car. or is it a kit for any car?

Well, I know the kit I have uses the original i/c sprayer bottle but there's also an option to mount something in the trunk. I'll check on this for you. I know there are a lot of kits out there, even some that have their own failsafes.

[mSHOCKERp]

Thanks Nvr2old, I was hoping somebody with a kit would chime in. I thank everyone for the information but I have a few questions now that the info given has confused me. Why is 10psi pushing it? Is it too much for detonation control from the ECU (thats what the meth injection is for), or to much power potential for the stock internals? (doubt it). The boost will be increased on the dyno with meth injection to see if the ECU will adapt for the increase in fuel within a safe limit. Over that limit some sort of AFC will be added for substantial fueling. The meth injection will suppress detonation allowing the ECU not to pull so much timing from the knock sensor, resulting in smoother power curves. The meth injection system uses a MAP sensor base controller to initiate meth injection over a desired "x" amount of boost, any time the pressure drops below that set point the system turns off. The best of both worlds would allow control over fueling and ignition for meth. Thanks for any further elaboration, I was under the impression that with my supporting mods and then this system I would be more than safe at 10-10.5 psi and was hoping to be cool at 12psi.

Mike

[jeffmsp]

the system uses a boost activated solenoid. You set where you want it to open. If you are a pro like me you right up a little light in the coqpit so you know when it activates. injecting water you start spraying above like 4psi, with methenol you will wanna wait until 8+psi since the car already runs so rich. I have some serious answers on how to tune these kits in another thread, just do some searching my fingers hurt lol pm me with anything you cant figure out.

14psi, fmic, injection + afc = 3rd geard burnouts from a roll at 100kmph..

[Alejo_NIN]

how readily available is methanol?

isn't water alone enough?
has to be destilled water, like filtered water? or bottled water?

how does the internals handle corrosion from water?
will alcohol be less corrosing than water alone?

[GMalatrasi]

Bump

[Professor MSP]

how readily available is methanol?

isn't water alone enough?
has to be destilled water, like filtered water? or bottled water?

how does the internals handle corrosion from water?
will alcohol be less corrosing than water alone?

Methanol is readily available in all auto parts stores in the form of gas line anti-freeze. A popular brand is Heet in the yellow bottle, which is about $1.29 for 12 ounces and is 99% methanol (verified with the MSDS). Isopropanol is the other alcohol used in gas line antifreeze so you have to read the label, or better yet, get the MSDS for the product you intend to buy.

Water can be enough—it simply depends on your horepower goals for the car. The guys at turbobick.com have repeatedly shown in real-world testing that methanol is the optimal choice for maximum power. I now use 85% methanol and 15% distilled water. Distilled water is much less likely to clog the nozzle, so it is preferred over tap water.

Based on what I have read from (and I have read a fair bit of material):

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/alcohol-nitrous-propane-tech/
http://forums.evolutionm.net/forumdisplay.php?f=173
http://www.srtforums.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=189
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=145

water does not lead to any significant internal corrosion. In fact, those that have torn their motor apart report that water injection literally steam cleans the internals.

My research also indicates that methanol is more corrosive than ethanol (which you can also inject), and ethanol is more corrosive than water. But you have to remember that you are spraying only under boost, and typically only 15%–25% of the total amount of liquid going in to the combustion chamber is alcohol and/or water. I have not found any reports of engines corroded by alcohol/water by those who have taken their motor apart.

My opinion is that this is an excellent modification for the MSP, which is why I went ahead and put one on. One thing, however, is that you must have a way to adjust your tune to account for the alcohol/water injection in order for it to perform optimally (more on that in another thread).

[GMalatrasi]

Would it be viable to use water injection on a car boosting at 5-7psi, instead of using 91 or 93 octane fuel?

[Maxx Mazda]

Would it be viable to use water injection on a car boosting at 5-7psi, instead of using 91 or 93 octane fuel?

No.

[GMalatrasi]

Would it do more than just lowering the intake and combustion temps for such low boost?

[The Great NY]

injecting 100% water wont do anything for intake temps. you may see a 2degree difference in intake air temps. water is used mainly for combustion temps. what this means is if you have an EGT sensor you will see a drop in egt temps using 100% water. how much depends on the tune and if you were already creating to high a temps with too retarded timing.

to really reap the benefits of these systems you want to run at least a 40/60 meth to water mix. i run a 70/30 meth to water mix although anything higher than 50/50 is considered flammable which is the main reason its not always recommended.

the meth injection kits on the market are universal for the most part. they typically use boost referenced controller to tell the pump when to kick on and handle business. you can simply setup a toggle switch linked between the power of the controller. this is the simplest way. you guys are making stuff too difficult trying to wire it alternative stuff. a $2 switch will do what you want if you really wish to have it off sometimes. mine is on all the time. moreso has power to it. but it doesnt activate till im at my desied boost setting.

either way you look at it. if you go with any kind of extra injection you will need to tune it. or else your wasting money. if you dont have a way to tune at a minimum AFR.......then dont bother installing it. unless you plan on running just water as it doesnt effect AFR's. if you do use 100% water. use the smallest nozzle that comes with the kit. and make sure the pump is pushing out at 200psi to atomize that water as good as possible.


EDIT: lmfao........FML.....just saw the date of the last post.

[GMalatrasi]

EDIT: lmfao........FML.....just saw the date of the last post.

Lol... No worries man. Still good info. Thanks

[Knox Joe]

I run a Snow pump and Labonte controller using straight methanol.

[Knox Joe]

Just a little update to this thread. After switching to straight methanol I had a pump failure, the seals wore out, leaking out all the methanol. I have since switched to a 100% methanol compatible pump with no problems thus far.

[The Great NY]

Good stuff. I personally always recommend not going over a 80/20 meth to water mix. Reason being if you do 100% meth you loose the added cooling charateristics of the water. The water will actually drop combustion temps a bit and help in that area.

I run a 70/30 mix myself and find that to be a great ratio for the best octance increase to cylinder cooling ratio. Thats just on my car. Ive tuned a couple cars and they seemed to like completely different ratios which it is accepted since every motor have a different design

Glad you found a pump that works. Im currently running the aem unit with awesome sucess.

[kamon8404]

Talk about a blast from the past. I'm going to be running a meth setup by the end of summer. I have to aquire a 505 mani and J&S first, then its meth time. I'm going to be running a snow stage 2 kit with a fail safe. The reason being is that their failsafe can be wired into the J&S or bpv incase of a loss of meth. Which is an awesome option only offered by them as far as I know.

anyone else using meth?

[The Great NY]

Talk about a blast from the past. I'm going to be running a meth setup by the end of summer. I have to aquire a 505 mani and J&S first, then its meth time. I'm going to be running a snow stage 2 kit with a fail safe. The reason being is that their failsafe can be wired into the J&S or bpv incase of a loss of meth. Which is an awesome option only offered by them as far as I know.

anyone else using meth?


i run meth in my car

[kamon8404]

i run meth in my car

Well what setup are you using?

[The Great NY]

Well what setup are you using?

i started off running the Labonte stage 2. then was running the Lobonte stage 2 and the AEM setup together for a while. then i switched over and am not running just the AEM setup and the AEM injection monitoring system.

here's my comparison thread of the Labonte and AEM kit

http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?123787328-COMPARISON-Labonte-Stage-2-vs.-AEM-Water-Meth-Injection-Systems

and here is the injection monitoring system

http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?123787330-AEM-Water-Methanol-Injection-Monitoring-System

[The Great NY]

shit actually i never updated the injection monitor one, here...


http://www.6crew.com/forum/showthread.php?16385-REVIEW-AEM-Methanol-Injection-Monitoring-System

[kamon8404]

So your using aem. I'm thinking aquamist is the route I'm going to take. I had a labonte kit in the past. I'm going with something different this time.

[littlemimus]

since we are on the topic. how safe is it to run meth? ive heard of guys running it and something failing and they end up blowing they're motor cause the tune is so aggressive that when something messes up your effed.

[kamon8404]

Well thats like saying i know guys running a manual boost controller and it causes a spike and blows the motor. Shit does happen but, they make fail safes that if the system stops pumping meth for any reason it can switch back to wastegate pressure vice an ebc or even switch to a different map on your ems or retard timing. They are safe if used correctly.

[nicholsspeed]

just like Kamon8404 says, there are many ways to failsafe your system.

the biggest culprit ive seen with Meth kits is the tank being empty.
my buddy had a system in his 240, at a track day his last lap the system ran out and he did not have a low level light or warning.

needless to say we had to get the car towed the 8hrs back home.

I myself plan on getting a system for my car as soon as i get my internals done. there are many systems out there, but i would deffffff recomend one that has a low level light, or warning.

[kamon8404]

Yea the low level lights are cheap too. Plus a failsafe is definitely clutch. Not to mention you should still look at your tank, especially if you have been using it a lot. Just be smart.

[ProjectBlack]

Stupid noob question: Can I run a meth injection on non-turbo FS-DE AT transmission? I believe I know the answer, but I would like to confirm the "no" with someone who knows what they're talking about. Please don't flame this post. I'm on this forum because I'm looking for answers and help, not sarcastic feedback or stupid comments (more stupid than mine! lol!). Thanks for the help.

[kamon8404]

You can run meth on an na car. There would just be no point to be honest. You wouldn't be able to get the full potential unless you had a piggyback to tune for it.

[hornsfan10609]

Basically no point in modding an AT FSDE.

[ProjectBlack]

Yeah...that's what I figured. I'm modding mine for fun, and just to improve aesthetics a bit. Even though it's not fast, it is still a lot more fun to drive with the intake, header, hi flow cat and exhaust. It's an alternative to having a new car payment for me, and it is the car that I have for now. I am the original owner of this and I bought it for work purposes, but of course I now would prefer a 5 speed. Maybe when this car dies, I'll get something a little more in line with "fast".

Thanks for the help!

[br289165]

I've got 11:4 to1 compression on my NA motor controlled by a Microtech LT10s, what can a meth system do for me?

[The Great NY]

Who said you can't run meth on an NA motor? It not a waste if you have a tuning solution. Same as with boost. Obviously the gains won't equate to the same as a boosted engine. But you will see gains if you tune for it.


What can meth do you? Lower intake and cylinder temps. Increase octane so that you can run more timing and a leaner fuel mixture in essence to make more power. At higher compressions it can definitely help. Just be sure to tune accordingly.

[Knox Joe]

So, I'm thinking about adding a little nitromethane to the mix, and making a run for the stock block power record... Coming in Spring 2012

[hornsfan10609]

It's 277 whp right? Shouldn't be impossible but certainly not easy.

[Knox Joe]

It's 277 whp right? Shouldn't be impossible but certainly not easy.

Yeah, 277whp.

I'm going in March to get a tune in NC from a well known tuner, so we'll see what she puts down on 14psi and go from there. I may need to do a little PnP on the IM, maybe cams, and lightened pulleys.