Question about engine replacement

[erikmanx]

I have a 2001 MP3 and I think I have developed rod knock. I want to get it before it blows a hole in the side of my engine, so Im online looking for engine blocks (thats really all I need, I can have my head machined and reconditioned if needed and swap everything else over).

The question I have is, looking at car-parts.com Im given the option for upper and lower engine blocks. I need to know what from that site I should be looking for. Unless anyone on here knows a better place to obtain block with a good bottom end in it for relatively cheap.

Im wondering if upper vs lower is like the same thing as longblock vs shortblock. If so I can figure THAT out, but Im just not sure.

Im also wondering if my engine block would be the same one found in just a standard 2.0 protege non MP3, or even a 626 2.0 as well.

Any help would be appreciated.

[supa saiyan pr5]

just 2 places..or why not just get a rebuild kit from protegegarage and slap it in the block you have now..ofcourse you'll have to get it machined but it might be cheaper doing it that way.

hope that helps

Jeremy

[erikmanx]

Im really looking for a swap type deal so I can if I want to later build the block I have for a turbo setup. I cant afford to be down for a long time. I have friends who know how to rebuild, swap, etc, who can help me with it. Im not worried too much about the actual work of swapping the top end over. I can have the head disassembled, hottanked and reassembled with new valve seals etc for relatively cheap, I can slap my head onto the new block, swap out any sensors etc I need, new head gasket, (my water pump only has about 20k on it so I could just reuse it), new timing belt, etc.

So yeah, in general I just want something I can swap over, maybe in a weekend assuming I have all the stuff and Im ready to go. Then I can piece by piece get a nice bottom end and internals, and have the block in there done nicely to support a good turbo setup.

Thanks for the links to try. Ill check those out.

[ForBidden]

when my motor went out i bought mine from protegegarage with under 30k miles cheep and the bad boy fired right up very happy with the motor they sold me :)

[erikmanx]

How many miles did you have on yours when it went ForBidden?

What was the cause of failure?

I have 120k miles and I am developing rod knock.. it isnt BAD yet, but I know it will just get worse.

[JoeManNorth]

Our engins dont have rods. You might have a bad valve? Eeather way, over head cams triger the valves directly. You'd probably be fine with a new head if you really think you messed up something bad.

[SeminoleMan]

Our engins dont have rods. You might have a bad valve? Eeather way, over head cams triger the valves directly. You'd probably be fine with a new head if you really think you messed up something bad.


WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? These engines most definitely have rods (hand)

[JoeManNorth]

sorry... was thinking about push rods not the connecting rods.

[JoeManNorth]

If you would of fully read my post you would of understood what I was talking about as it's a common knock in older engines.

[Blackrose]

If you would of fully read my post you would of understood what I was talking about as it's a common knock in older engines.

What he is trying to say is it cant be Rod knock cause you cant have rod knock in a OHC car. There is no push rods. And if something happened to the connecting rods then you would have bigger problems then just a knock. It is probably something in the valve train that is causing the noise. But dont think just replacing the head will do the trick. If a valve is bent the it could very well have done some major damage to its local piston. it would be best to figure out what is really wrong before buying parts and jumping the gun. It could very well be a spun bearing too. They will sometimes make a knocking sound when they go.

[JoeManNorth]

What he is trying to say is it cant be Rod knock cause you cant have rod knock in a OHC car. There is no push rods. And if something happened to the connecting rods then you would have bigger problems then just a knock. It is probably something in the valve train that is causing the noise. But dont think just replacing the head will do the trick. If a valve is bent the it could very well have done some major damage to its local piston. it would be best to figure out what is really wrong before buying parts and jumping the gun. It could very well be a spun bearing too. They will sometimes make a knocking sound when they go.


Thanks for clarifying my french.

That is also true, most of the time when you damage a valve it's because you drove the piston into it. I should of had mentioned that. (braindead

[erikmanx]

Connecting rod knock, piston pin noises, things like that.

Im not talking about pushrods.

[Blackrose]

Connecting rod knock, piston pin noises, things like that.

Im not talking about pushrods.

I understand that you are not talking about push rods. But connecting Rods dont knock. The point is if you are hearing a knock it is not the connecting rods. And that you should get it diagnossed before you think about buying anything.

[erikmanx]

Tell me where you think you are getting this information from please.

Connecting rods can too knock.

Our engines can experience rod knock. I am not understanding where you guys think that they cant have what is commonly known as rod knock. Any engine can get rod knock.

[Blackrose]

Tell me where you think you are getting this information from please.

Connecting rods can too knock.

Our engines can experience rod knock. I am not understanding where you guys think that they cant have what is commonly known as rod knock. Any engine can get rod knock.


Ok then.... why dont you explain to me how a connecting rod will knock??? Unless you manage to like bend it just right so it hits the cylinder wall or something as unlikely as that it is not going to make a noise. If there is something wrong with a wrist pin then it is not going to be rod knock it is going to be a problem with the wrist pin. Even if its a bad rod bearing then it is not rod knock it is a Spun bearing........ Rod knock is a generic term people use to describe a problem with a motor that is producing a bad sound. Connecting Rods do not knock.. They crack or bend and when they do it is catasrophic. If there was a problem with your connecting rod there would be no question that is what it is.

[erikmanx]

Rod knock as Im talking about occurs when the CONNECTING ROD (which I assure you we have and is the same as any other engine) hits the crankshaft journal (which I assure you we have).

Rod knock will often lead to spinning a bearing and or throwing a rod, resulting in a shattered piston or throwing a hole in the side of the block.

This happens to cars of every make, model, and engine size, even today. How could you think we are exempt from it?

[JoeManNorth]

Tell me where you think you are getting this information from please.

Connecting rods can too knock.

Our engines can experience rod knock. I am not understanding where you guys think that they cant have what is commonly known as rod knock. Any engine can get rod knock.

Anyone who has been arround engines knows this. A connecting rod could "knock" though blackrose. It would be one knock though then more of a bang, and a few clunks and a chuck fallowed by complete silence.

[erikmanx]

Rod bolts can stretch and allow play. Get enough play and you have a connecting rod hitting something.

Bearing journals can go out of round over time and make the rod move a different pattern and it can knock against something there too.

[Blackrose]

Rod knock as Im talking about occurs when the CONNECTING ROD (which I assure you we have and is the same as any other engine) hits the crankshaft journal (which I assure you we have).

Rod knock will often lead to spinning a bearing and or throwing a rod, resulting in a shattered piston or throwing a hole in the side of the block.

This happens to cars of every make, model, and engine size, even today. How could you think we are exempt from it?


I can see talking to you will get us no were but ill try one more time.

We are mearly debating terminoligy.

Rod knock is a buzz term to describe something very bad happening to any motor that produces a sound but it is a technical term for a malfuncioning in a push rod.

The first thing your described is a type of crank walk

Crank walk can lead to spun bearings and broken crank angle sensors and destroyed thrust bearings.

A thrown rod is when you litterally throw a push rod up againt the ceiling of the head or through it. You cant through a rod in a protege because we dont have push rods. this is yet another "buzz" term.

If you did somehow walk the crank then you are the first protege owner I have even heard of to manage this and there are several high HP protege that have never done thins. Even if you think the rod meerly bent and struck the crank then you are insane.

You do not have Rod knock. If thats what you want to call it fine.... But like I said before when I was just trying to help you. Dont buy something without a diagnosis first. What you think might be Rod Knock could simply be a bent vavle.

[JoeManNorth]

Ditto to that... I think I have that issue. To top it off, if the noise is comming out the top of the engine it's most definatly is a valve. And yes you can tell if it's a noise from the top or bottom or mid if you listen long enough.

Eather way, Blackrose is right. Make sure you know what it is before you go buying what you think you need.

[Blackrose]

Anyone who has been arround engines knows this. A connecting rod could "knock" though blackrose. It would be one knock though then more of a bang, and a few clunks and a chuck fallowed by complete silence.


Im not arguing that a connecting rod can make a kncocking sound. But it is "technically" not Rod Knock.

[erikmanx]

Dude, stop arguing for the sake of arguing. Its totally derailing my thread.

I am asking people for advice on WHERE to find an engine, like a shortblock, I can rebuild and put in my car.

So again, guys. I know how to diagnose an engine. I THINK I have rod knock. Im going to take a timing light to it later tonight and find out for sure. You can tell whether a noise is in the upper assembly vs lower assembly by where you hear it in conjunction to the light.

Im not a noob to cars here. Im not trying to start a fight. I get sick and tired when everyone on the internet tries to be so LITERAL.

To those who are trying to help, I really appreciate it.

To those who are just trying to argue a stupid slang terminology around, stop trying to help.

Oh and CRANKWALK is the CRANKSHAFT itself (NOT THE MAIN BEARING JOURNALS) wearing against the THRUST BEARING which can lead to destroying the CAS or just throwing a rod.

[erikmanx]

Rod knock is a buzz term to describe something very bad happening to any motor that produces a sound but it is a technical term for a malfuncioning in a push rod.

A thrown rod is when you litterally throw a push rod up againt the ceiling of the head or through it. You cant through a rod in a protege because we dont have push rods. this is yet another "buzz" term.


No, and no.

Rod knock is very real, and it means the bolts stretched or the journals are out of round causing excessive play and hammering the crank journals.

And throwing a rod means it became disconnected from the crank or piston, which is how you get that nice window in the side of your motor.

You're thinking of knock, which is a "buzz" term which means anything from a spun bearing, to detonation.

[JoeManNorth]

[QUOTE=erikmanx]
And throwing a rod means it became disconnected from the crank or piston, which is how you get that nice window in the side of your motor.
QUOTE]

Dude, that's droping the piston not throwing a rod. (flame2)

[Blackrose]

Im sorry you feel I belittled your thread in any way.

You want a short block then so be it

www.protegegarage.com

www.speedcircut.net


I think www.corksport.com sells them

And there might be one or two others.

Have a Super Day.

[erikmanx]

[QUOTE=erikmanx]
And throwing a rod means it became disconnected from the crank or piston, which is how you get that nice window in the side of your motor.
QUOTE]

Dude, that's droping the piston not throwing a rod. (flame2)

LOL and where do you think the rod goes when the thing is moving at thousands of revolutions per minute? Its inherently at a slant, it isnt in there straight, and since there is no rotation directing that force, it usually goes through the side of the block.

[Blackrose]

No, and no.

Rod knock is very real, and it means the bolts stretched or the journals are out of round causing excessive play and hammering the crank journals.

And throwing a rod means it became disconnected from the crank or piston, which is how you get that nice window in the side of your motor.

You're thinking of knock, which is a "buzz" term which means anything from a spun bearing, to detonation.


You just bitched at me about derailing your thread and then you cant resist but carry on.... Fine dude whatever.. Its your thread and you win. I like a good debate but you asked me to stop then you carry on??? What the deal. If you dont like what I say dont listen, click the ignore button or simply ask me to stop... I did and you carried on... So who is not so sure about if they are right or wrong.???

[erikmanx]

Look, argue all you want then. Fine.

I got my links, I got the info I wanted, this can turn into a bitchfest all it wants now.

I dont like misinformation at all. And I believe you are posting it.

You even edited your version of crankwalk AFTER I posted my version of it. You are totally just arguing for the sake of arguing. It seems like youre trying to save face.

I just think its ridiculous in the first place to come into my thread and argue terminology, where if you were inclined to help, you would have either tried to guide me to FIND the trouble, instead of just telling me I was using the wrong term.

Either way, I believe you are wrong with your use of rod knock. I think youre thinking of just KNOCK. Go do a google search on rod knock. Tell me it talks about pushrods in any of the things you find. Im seeing connecting rods this, connecting rods that, etc relating to the crankshalft and piston wrist pins etc.


Either way, Ill post what I find is wrong with my engine tonight after me and my buddy look at it using the timing light and tracing sounds with a screwdriver (the ol stethoscope method)

[Blackrose]

***********************

[erikmanx]

K, Ive said what I want to, I would like to call a truce, in context (if someone wanted to read the whole thing), one can determine the nature of my trouble and what Im talking about. They can determine the nature of what you are talking about and discern what they want.

So Im saying truce k?

[JoeManNorth]

lol too funny... Lets google it!

I dont even know blackrose and I can tell you he's talking from experiance, not googling. I have a little experiance and I know what's what. Experiance as in being in a garage with a bunch of mechanics pulling appart and fixing actual cars. All in All, I would have to hear your engine to tell you what it MAY be. I know I have a possible bent valve, and it "knocks" Then again, it might not even be that.

"LOL and where do you think the rod goes when the thing is moving at thousands of revolutions per minute? Its inherently at a slant, it isnt in there straight, and since there is no rotation directing that force, it usually goes through the side of the block."

And if the conecting rod goes threw the side of the block, where do you think the PISTON goes? or should we explain to you what's conected to the conecting rod?

[JoeManNorth]

But allright, I agree to your truce. You also did say you would like to keep the second block to rebuild it to take more HP (turbo) so what's the point of arguing if you're going to swap the engine out anyways?

[Blackrose]

K, Ive said what I want to, I would like to call a truce, in context (if someone wanted to read the whole thing), one can determine the nature of my trouble and what Im talking about. They can determine the nature of what you are talking about and discern what they want.

So Im saying truce k?


Ok I did some more research.. What you are calling Rod knock is in fact called rod knock. I grew up in Chicago.. This is one of the musclecar capitols. If you even said rod knock around one of those guys when refering to your OHC car they would give you the 5th degree. I concide. I was always told that this is typically a type of crank walk and not called rod knock. Maybe its kind of a reginal thing. I am sorry it escilated to that level. I guess it really is dumb to arguee terms but hell this is how we all learn. Besides now I can give those lead sled, mullet wearing assholes a good tounge lashing back now.

[Blackrose]

BTW i didnt edit my post to change what crank walk is. I am a terible speller and was meerly correcting myself.

[erikmanx]

Ok I did some more research.. What you are calling Rod knock is in fact called rod knock. I grew up in Chicago.. This is one of the musclecar capitols. If you even said rod knock around one of those guys when refering to your OHC car they would give you the 5th degree. I concide. I was always told that this is typically a type of crank walk and not called rod knock. Maybe its kind of a reginal thing. I am sorry it escilated to that level. I guess it really is dumb to arguee terms but hell this is how we all learn. Besides now I can give those lead sled, mullet wearing assholes a good tounge lashing back now.


Haha, word. Thanks man.

[ForBidden]

is it more of a tick or when u rev up can u here the pistion hit against the wall? if its a tick its your vavle spings nothing to wory about normal wear if its a knock then your prety much fucked mine went out at 66k due to haveing no oil in the motor cause of that it the tranny shop fucking bastards....

[erikmanx]

Well... from inside the car it sounds ticky... but if you park next to a wall, or another car where there is a slight echo, or what not, it sounds like a knock. When you get your head up under there it sounds like its coming from the back of the engine down at the block, not in the head, but we will see tonight with the timing light and trusty screwdriver if theres any correlation.

[ForBidden]

does it get louder when u get in the higher rpms while driving like somethings relly banging in there?

[erikmanx]

Yeah, it seems to get louder.

It also doesnt do it RIGHT away in the morning when its cold, it makes the noise a minute or so after I start it.

[ForBidden]

well it makes sence your oil is still thick i i dono whats happening to yours i spwn a road bearing your bearing could be wearing out if u wanna see if u can last long on your motor try putting a thicker weight of oil with a quart of lucas it could stop your problem.