Xede Installed on my Speed6 yesterday

[jcgemt2003]

After weeks of waiting I finally got my Xede enginemanagment system. The install took place down at Kens (Protege Garage) soon to be opened new shop in Libertyville,IL. Let me start by saying that never in my life have I had someone go so above and beyond to take care of me as a customer..Ken would not let me leave until he thought that I was satisfied with the install.
We started at 930am on Saturday morining hoping that everything would go off without a hitch and ran into several hurdles during the day. Eric, who did the actual wiring of the system spent countless hours under the dash of my car and did so with such poise and confidence that I must tell you that I was literally speechless. I thought that the frustration of not having the right software, the wrong wiring diagram and the wrong map would push them over the edge but the two of them handled it like true professionals...If I had took this to some other shop they would have never made the effort that Ken and Eric did to get this right.......finally after several (and I do mean several) phone calls to Stephanie at Bell and after her phone calls to Shiv we got everything workn much, much much later that night. We hooked up the lap top and 4 of us went out to see how system would work with a speed 3 base map and BAM!!! this thing was pulln like there was no one in my car! I will never let another speed shop work on my Mazda again. I will admit I was a little worried at first but after I spoke with the two of them and the other MAZDA heads that were there I felt lke I couldnt be in better hands. These guys no more about Mazdas then most people no about pumping gas. For Gods sake the parking lot looked like a Mazda dealership! Everyone that Ken and Eric new in the area who drove a Mazda was there to help out. It was a great feeling to have that much confidence in the people working on my $25,000 car. As soon as we get some dyno time Im sure that Ken will be posting some numbers. We will also be doing some tuning for day to day driving so not every map will be WOT. All in all,
I am completly and utterly satisified!(cabpatch) (cabpatch) (cabpatch) (cabpatch) (dance) (dance) (dance) (group)
DYNOS: http://www.msprotege.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=103642

[Sveivo]

Sounds like a success story :). That's awesome (burnout).

[Rainman]

Glad to hear that everything worked out and excellent to hear the service that you received.

R

[k-lea]

I'm glad your install went smoother than mine. Congrats. Maybe this will work out for you better than it did me.

[Karma_hunden]

Now let get to the point! hehe...How the XEDE EMS!?!?

[Captain KRM P5]

Jason, it was a blast having you there. The best 'first customer' experience i could have hoped for. You're welcome back any time.

Once the wiring diagram and USB/serial/xede issues were worked out, the car really drove very well. it pulls very hard, even with what is basically a lightly modified mazdaspeed3 map, and harder than what it did stock. i didn't want to make too many alterations without a wideband to assist us, but i can tell from the drives that there is room to lean out the map as well as give the turbo some more work to do :D i'm happy with the XMAP software, its pretty straightforward and responsive in what it does. i'm going to check the wastegate wiring as well as the tuning parameters when we get the car back in this week to see what we can do.

[Nutari]

wish I could have been there. Sorry i wasnt that much of a help over the phone. I now know what you guys were dealing with though. :(

Hope you like the new car.

[trees]

Congrats! Cant wait to see your new 1/4 mile times...Wish I could check this car out with the Xede installed. Maybe next time? Could push me into getting one.

[4DRHTRD]

Make sure to dyno it with AFR and boost graphing capabillities. Also take a datalog of the ignition timing when you make a full pull.
Mike

[jcgemt2003]

XEDE on my speed yanks out some pretty good power right now...we arent able to control the boost yet we are having a wiring issue...but I intalled my wideband and I am running 11.4 AFR at WOT which is much better than the 10.1 I was running...once we ve taken care of the wastegate controll will be making a map for 18psi and one for 20psi. We plan to test the limits of the stock turbo a liitle with the an increase to 20psi because there has been such a debat as to what this tubo can actually handle. Once we ve established that it can or cant handle it I will install the ATP gtr3071 turbo....without a cutout....(if you no what I mean, tuff brake 4drhtrd) Right now with the intake, exhaust, blowoff valve and Xede Im hoping will make some good numbers on the dyno...soon as we have will post.

[Klip]

Sounds great Jason grats and good info on Ken's Garage also. Libertyville is'nt that far from Nashville, TN If I ever need tuning help from some Mazda Pro's.

[Captain KRM P5]

jason and i keep playing phone tag :) however we've got some more goodies and info to try out on his car this weekend if he has the time...

[jcgemt2003]

We finally figured out what the prob was with the boost controll and let me tell you guys this thing is CRAZY FREAKN FAST....I swear I gotta be maken at least another 40whp. But will no for sure on Tuesday evening, we should have some dynos posted for alll of you by the evening.

[M6GR8]

Thanks. Waiting patiently for the outcome of the dyno figure.

[Nutari]

I wish you guys could have heard Kens voice mail when they got the car working right.

"Oh my f@#$% god this thing pulls like a BEAST"

Did I get that right Ken?

I imagined that video with the japanese guys in the 13B powered Hatchi screaming for their lives.

[Anna-chan]

the looks on jason and ken's faces when they came back from the test drive, omg, little boys in a candy shop.

[StarvingRussian]

Jason, your car hauled ass when I rode in it before the Xede worked right and Ken said it's crazy fast now. I'm going to have to see this sometime.

[skylinemonster]

I wish you guys could have heard Kens voice mail when they got the car working right.

"Oh my f@#$% god this thing pulls like a BEAST"

Did I get that right Ken?

I imagined that video with the japanese guys in the 13B powered Hatchi screaming for their lives.

it wasn't a 13b. they were screamin because it was a 20b (3 rotor 2 liter rotary) engine with a turbo the size of my head attached to it. that's why it accelerated like a spaceship going into hyperspace in starwars.

[vert]

We are starting to see the promise land:)

[buit9110]

now we need some vids and dyno! (drive)

[jcgemt2003]

Very Soon!!!

[trees]

Cant wait to see some 1/4 mile times... track opens on the weekend of March 24th. (drive2) I will be there.

[Nutari]

it wasn't a 13b. they were screamin because it was a 20b (3 rotor 2 liter rotary) engine with a turbo the size of my head attached to it. that's why it accelerated like a spaceship going into hyperspace in starwars.
lol. God that video was great. Thanks for the correction. I couldn't remember which rotary was in it.

[vert]

Did the dyno take place today?

[jcgemt2003]

Yes it did and Ken will posting the results soon...and yes you will like.

[StephanieT]

Let's just say, I was amazed.
Stephanie

[Captain KRM P5]

Did the dyno take place today?

267 awhp
305 lb/ft torque
12.5 a/f ratio throughout boost

enjoy :)

[buit9110]

thats with the stock turbo right? if it is Im very impressed. what is the boost set up at, and what are his mods?

[vert]

The dyno looks good and it appears the power did not start to drop until 5,800 rpm's. What psi did you have your boost set at during the dyno and how much did the boost fall off in the higher rpm's

[jcgemt2003]

Yes stock turbo....intake and catted turbo back.

[StephanieT]

What was the base line run?
Stephanie

[chuyler1]

They usually baseline between 205-220 at the wheels, with CB and CAI prolly 10-15 more. So anyway you spin this, it is a significant increase.

I'm curious as to what the gains will be w/o CB/CAI.

[trees]

They usually baseline between 205-220 at the wheels, with CB and CAI prolly 10-15 more. So anyway you spin this, it is a significant increase.

I'm curious as to what the gains will be w/o CB/CAI.
turboback not catback...

[jcgemt2003]

Like my man trees said....turbo back with one cat (right after turbo)

[Gandalf]

So you don't have a baseline run though from this car? Just wondering since some people are dynoing around 235 whp and some 210, so its hard to say exactly what the gain was from just tuning. With a turbo back and intake I would dyno close those numbers w/o tuning, but its all about the increase not just the numbers.

[jcgemt2003]

It depends on what dyno you used. If you used a mustang dyno your numbers are gonna be higher than that of the dyno-jet...on a mustang dyno i would be much higher....I doubt you have any were near that with a turbo back and cai....the numbers that they posted to sell you those boltons are not accurate....before tuning I could barely tell the difference in power with bolt ons.....in reality I probably made another 15whp with cai and turboback...and I was only running 13.8 in the 1/4mile. Your not gonna get a cummulative gain on bolt ons. 25whp(exhuast)+15whp(cai)doesnt equall 40whp gain...not from boltons my man.....more like 15whp... so in reallity your nowhere near 270wmp right now...maybe 235 at the very most...if you were that high you would be running 13.6 or better in the 1/4mile. Ill prove it this weekend when I go to the track and beat the crap out of my best time! I have nothing to gain from Bullshitting you guys....I make no money of this product...YOU WILL FEEL A BIG GAIN....!

[jcgemt2003]

Here Ill do some basic math
Mazdaspeed3 with Xede 325bhp.(325x12.5%drivetrainloss)=285whp (aprox).
Mazdaspeed6 with Xede 325bhp.(325x17.5%drivetrainloss)=268whp (aprox).
I used 12.5% and 17.5% because it is in the middle of what most people say fwd lose (10-15%) and awd lose (15-20%) at the wheels.
Now factor in that the mazdaspeed3 has less bhp (tuned down from the factory)than the speed6 by about 25hp and thats why you see almost 70whp gain on the speed3 and more like 35-40 on the speed6.

[vert]

Ken,
Do you plan to do installs/tuning at your Libertyville,IL shop?

I am intersted in 1/4 mile times. I would say low 13's and trap of 104.

[Afroman]

So basically, this should not be attempted by anyone other than a professional and even then it is difficult?

Where the directions really that bad for this product?

It sounds like anyone who orders this will have to call XEDE directly multiple times just to get the thing installed. Even then it sounds like there are problems.

[k-lea]

Good luck getting a hold of Shiv. I was lucky when I got in contact with him..

[Captain KRM P5]

So basically, this should not be attempted by anyone other than a professional and even then it is difficult?

Where the directions really that bad for this product?

It sounds like anyone who orders this will have to call XEDE directly multiple times just to get the thing installed. Even then it sounds like there are problems.

at this point we have our set of directions made up from our experiences and notes having worked on the product. the install is not bad once the right information is in front of you. once it is installed right there should not be any cause for problems.

Ken,
Do you plan to do installs/tuning at your Libertyville,IL shop?

I am intersted in 1/4 mile times. I would say low 13's and trap of 104.

yes we will do installs and tuning on all of our products and then some at Libertyville

i'll throw out a guess and say 13.4 in the quarter mile if jason knows how to drive ;) j/k

as for dynoing close to 260whp with just intake and exhaust, frankly thats not realistic. the exhaust on this particular car retains all stock downpipe restrictions (read: catalysts) so its not a true TBE in that sense. like jason said, horsepower gains don't go 'mod + mod + mod = power'. horsepower gains are a proportionally cumulative affair.

[Captain KRM P5]

thats with the stock turbo right? if it is Im very impressed. what is the boost set up at, and what are his mods?

boost spikes initially to 22psi and holds at about 17/18 psi throughout the powerband. the car has a CP-E intake and the exhaust is a "down pipe back" system, so the car retains all emissions gear.

[MUSOM]

Please take no offense to this, because it is nothing more than my opinion. However, anyone educated in the sciences will tell you that you have, hypothetically speaking, gained nothing if you have not compared the present to a controlled mechanism (base dyno). 268 whp is just fine and dandy, but when you have no idea if you were making 210 or 240 prior, then how do you know what you have gained? Another thing, I would consider 268 a disappointment. XEDE has great control over A/F ratio and controlling the turbo, which are obvious on the dyno. The overall gains are much more impressive that the peak gains. However, CPE (with the same DYNOJET) was showing a peak of 247 whp with the downpipe ONLY and a 30 whp gain from 4k rpm and upward. Add in the CAI, and your turboback exhaust and (again, only from my point of view) there should be no reason why you shouldn't have a base dyno of 250-260 whp (including possible negative variables) So, as you quoted you "felt like XEDE added another 40whp" but according to my calculations, you getting no more than 10-15 whp gains?

On a more personal note, I will be installing the CPE EMS as well as the FMIC within the next week or so (praying). I currently have CPE CAI, downpipe, and catback exhaust system. If I had to guess, I would say I would dyno anywhere from 250-265 whp currently. And I then expect to be much closer to 300whp with FMIC and EMS. [According to CPE, I should be around 245 with the downpipe ONLY, and I have CAI and exhaust system. I can't imagine being less than 250.] So I am planning on doing a MODIFIED BASE DYNO with my current mods, and then will be doing a post FMIC/EMS + tune dyno. Let's just hope that I'm not dissapointed. Good luck with those track times. I still couldn't touch you there. I can't launch worth a d***. (wrc)

[jcgemt2003]

Your way wrong for thinking that your getting 300whp from all that....bolt-ons dont add up cummulativly...theres no way in hell that your getting 25whp from and exhaust and 15 from a cai.....then another 25whp from a downpipe. If you knew what you were talking about then you would know that is impossible. Dyno numbers can be altered with "corrections". I have a 3inch downpipe and custom 3" exhuast with a cpe cai....believe me theres no way in hell that you can gain that much horsepower from that kinda stuff...IMPOSSIBLE...go dyno your car on a dynojet and you will see that those numbers that are being posted for boltons are incorrect and they are trying to sell products...Horsepower sells.....I know there was a big gain because I can feel it and we tested the car from a roll on another speed6 and I whipped his ass. I gain nothing from posting my dyno numbers for you guys...Im not selling the product...I was there when it was dynoed and I know what my car did before...I will show you guys my timeslip from the track when I go on saturday...my best time before boltons 14.0.....after boltons 13.8....my best time now....just wait youll see.

[jcgemt2003]

If you really believe that mod+mod+mod=horsepower...your so wrong you should be commited...cai 15whp+ downpipe25whp+catback25whp..so you should be puttin down like 280 at the wheel....Tell you what...go race a 2006 mustang gt from a 40mph role and after he smokes you youll know what Im talking about. They weigh just about the same as the speed6 and put down about 270hp to the wheels.....HE'LL SMOKE YOU...i had the same mods you did and I couldnt even hang.

[Gandalf]

It depends on what dyno you used. If you used a mustang dyno your numbers are gonna be higher than that of the dyno-jet...on a mustang dyno i would be much higher....I doubt you have any were near that with a turbo back and cai....the numbers that they posted to sell you those boltons are not accurate....before tuning I could barely tell the difference in power with bolt ons.....in reality I probably made another 15whp with cai and turboback...and I was only running 13.8 in the 1/4mile. Your not gonna get a cummulative gain on bolt ons. 25whp(exhuast)+15whp(cai)doesnt equall 40whp gain...not from boltons my man.....more like 15whp... so in reallity your nowhere near 270wmp right now...maybe 235 at the very most...if you were that high you would be running 13.6 or better in the 1/4mile. Ill prove it this weekend when I go to the track and beat the crap out of my best time! I have nothing to gain from Bullshitting you guys....I make no money of this product...YOU WILL FEEL A BIG GAIN....!

Thats all fine and dandy, but I dynoed 236 whp on a dynojet completely stock. So I seriously doubt with a turbo-back and CAI I would still only dyno 235. Like you said if I gained 15 whp from both (and I think thats an ultra conservative number since someone gained 30whp on a MS3 with just a RP) then I would still be dynoing 250-255 whp. Only 10-15 off your mark.

The point of my post was not to contest your numbers, I am sure they are valid. It was to contest the gains - since we have no clue what you made before. If your baseline was 210 and with the tune you put down 265, everyone would be amazed (and wanting to buy). Now if your baseline was 250. . . well not as impressive. See what I mean?

Track is a great way to measure - sometimes. The track has a lot of variables, and unless you run at the same track every time - in the same exact weather - with the same exact track conditions - with the same exact weight and perfect launch everytime, its going to be hard to tell whether you gained 15 or 30 whp.

[MUSOM]

I never said that boltons were cummulative and I know they are not. I'm assuming a 215-220 base dyno. CPE reports about 25-30 from downpipe, 20 or so from exhaust, and 10 or so from CAI. 215-220 + 25-30 + 20 + 10 = 270-280 whp if cummulative. I said "i can't imagine being less than 250". Once again, i'm sure you have much mroe experience than me, but those are my assumptions only. I will be doing an dyno soon, and we'll see just how well my car performs with current mods vs current mods + FMIC and EMS. I don't have a stock dyno at all. Wish I would have now, but that's too late now. I have played around with an 06 GT and from 5 mph or so roll on, it was completely even, to my surprise. I had no idea the new GT's were that powerful, considering I have smoked older models on more than one occasion, *on a legal track*.

Also, my car seems to be getting more boost than others are reporting, and I think it might have something to do with seeming a little quicker. I'm reporting a steady 14 psi at 1 and 2, and at 18 peaks in 3 and 4 with a steady 16-17. Others have reported 2-3 psi less at each gear. This may have something to do with the turbo spooling up a little quicker via my mods. I'm unsure. I can't wait to dyno. Again, take no offense to what I've said, only opinion. I can only hope I'm right with my numbers. I'll be sure to post vids, pics, and dynos as soon as they are installed and tuned.

[MUSOM]

Looka like GANDALF and I are on the same page. I can't wait to dyno mine to get a good measure of some results!!!!!!(braindead


Thats all fine and dandy, but I dynoed 236 whp on a dynojet completely stock. So I seriously doubt with a turbo-back and CAI I would still only dyno 235. Like you said if I gained 15 whp from both (and I think thats an ultra conservative number since someone gained 30whp on a MS3 with just a RP) then I would still be dynoing 250-255 whp. Only 10-15 off your mark.

The point of my post was not to contest your numbers, I am sure they are valid. It was to contest the gains - since we have no clue what you made before. If your baseline was 210 and with the tune you put down 265, everyone would be amazed (and wanting to buy). Now if your baseline was 250. . . well not as impressive. See what I mean?

Track is a great way to measure - sometimes. The track has a lot of variables, and unless you run at the same track every time - in the same exact weather - with the same exact track conditions - with the same exact weight and perfect launch everytime, its going to be hard to tell whether you gained 15 or 30 whp.

[jdub260]

Remember all let's keep this civil and post your results. Time slips and dyno sheets speak for themselves. It would be great to have before and after's but if all you got is an after than so be it. I say a little information is better than none at all. :D

For the record I ran a 13.86 on a Gtech with no modifications other than a CAI.

[Speed6 Guy]

Show me the slip. LOL


Just kidding

[david097]

Musom, im guessing the reason you are seeing higher boost level's is because of the downpipe and catback, 4drhtrd saw I believe he said 2 psi higher just from opening his cutout.

[MUSOM]

david097, That's my assumption too. I may have gained 1-2 psi jump with the downpipe and exhaust. I hope to gain 1-2 from the FMIC too. That would be a happy day. I think I'll set my boost at 16-17 in 1,2 (hopefully with an 18-19 peak) and at 18 from 3-6. I don't think that is unreasonable, considering the turbo shouldn't be working any harder because of the 2-3 psi stock TMIC pressure drop it currently has. We'll see what the dyno has to say.

[david097]

sounds like a good plan musom :)

[StephanieT]

Good luck getting a hold of Shiv. I was lucky when I got in contact with him..
Shiv is not providing support for this application, nor was it ever implied that he would. Whomever retails the unit is, ie. Mazda Parts Online or myself. When we took over the Mazda Sales of the Xede, part of the deal was we provide ALL the support - past, present and future. And if necessary, we go thru him. The only reason I say something is because I have heard this alot lately. People are blaming him for something he is not guilty of.

As for Exhausts, the MOST we have ever gained with an exhaust was 19 rwhp. 3" Dual, straight back. Even then we were shocked and did not believe it. It is very rare for an exhaust to pick up over 20 hp. And even then, to get the maximum benefit the car should be tuned for that bolt on. Horse power #'s and psi #'s are good an all, HOWEVER, if you do not have an efficient system, the motor will not last as long and mileage will be bad. If you can make more power at the same psi, consider that awesome results. The average stock MazdaSpeed vehicle will have really bad efficiency #'s (below 7.0)

I am curious to know what the efficiency #'s are for everyone's vehicle. Call me crazy, but I would love to see a thread on everyone's efficiency number instead of horsepower. To calculate it:
psi + 14.7 (atmospheric pressure) = A
horsepower / A = Efficiency
If efficiency is Below 8.0 - car needs help
8.0 to 8.5 = good, average
8.5 to 9.0 = really good
9.0 or higher = Excellent!!!

For example: My Miata runs 243 rwhp @ 12 psi.
12 + 14.7 = 26.7
243 / 26.7 = 9.101

The stock MS6: 210 hp @ 14 psi = 7.317
Stephanie

[jcgemt2003]

Ok...Im not selling the thing all Im saying is that with the xede on my car there is a vast difference in power....3rd gear and up pull much harder than before....If I had to do it again I would, it was definatly worth it to me...Everyone was itchn to know what it would do on the speed6 and now you have someone who was brave enough to do have it installed and all I can get is well we dont know for sure what it really did.Well guess what...I DO KNOW FOR SURE..and this thing pulls like a raped ape. If you dont want to believe me then oh well...your loss.

[jcgemt2003]

Shiv is not providing support for this application, nor was it ever implied that he would. Whomever retails the unit is, ie. Mazda Parts Online or myself. When we took over the Mazda Sales of the Xede, part of the deal was we provide ALL the support - past, present and future. And if necessary, we go thru him. The only reason I say something is because I have heard this alot lately. People are blaming him for something he is not guilty of.

As for Exhausts, the MOST we have ever gained with an exhaust was 19 rwhp. 3" Dual, straight back. Even then we were shocked and did not believe it. It is very rare for an exhaust to pick up over 20 hp. And even then, to get the maximum benefit the car should be tuned for that bolt on. Horse power #'s and psi #'s are good an all, HOWEVER, if you do not have an efficient system, the motor will not last as long and mileage will be bad. If you can make more power at the same psi, consider that awesome results. The average stock MazdaSpeed vehicle will have really bad efficiency #'s (below 7.0)

I am curious to know what the efficiency #'s are for everyone's vehicle. Call me crazy, but I would love to see a thread on everyone's efficiency number instead of horsepower. To calculate it:
psi + 14.7 (atmospheric pressure) = A
horsepower / A = Efficiency
If efficiency is Below 8.0 - car needs help
8.0 to 8.5 = good, average
8.5 to 9.0 = really good
9.0 or higher = Excellent!!!

For example: My Miata runs 243 rwhp @ 12 psi.
12 + 14.7 = 26.7
243 / 26.7 = 9.101

The stock MS6: 210 hp @ 14 psi = 7.317
Stephanie
YEAH...what she said!

[MUSOM]

I think you're underestimating a stock MS6 whp. I've seen consistent 220's from stock. So that would make the stock MS6 (220 whp and 14psi) make a 7.67 "efficiency". No where close to below 7.0 (like you quoted).

emt is running a 8.17 "efficiency". And anything under 8.0 you said the "car needs help". Just doesn't add up to me. (screwy)

[Captain KRM P5]

Please take no offense to this, because it is nothing more than my opinion. However, anyone educated in the sciences will tell you that you have, hypothetically speaking, gained nothing if you have not compared the present to a controlled mechanism (base dyno). 268 whp is just fine and dandy, but when you have no idea if you were making 210 or 240 prior, then how do you know what you have gained? Another thing, I would consider 268 a disappointment. XEDE has great control over A/F ratio and controlling the turbo, which are obvious on the dyno. The overall gains are much more impressive that the peak gains. However, CPE (with the same DYNOJET) was showing a peak of 247 whp with the downpipe ONLY and a 30 whp gain from 4k rpm and upward. Add in the CAI, and your turboback exhaust and (again, only from my point of view) there should be no reason why you shouldn't have a base dyno of 250-260 whp (including possible negative variables) So, as you quoted you "felt like XEDE added another 40whp" but according to my calculations, you getting no more than 10-15 whp gains?

On a more personal note, I will be installing the CPE EMS as well as the FMIC within the next week or so (praying). I currently have CPE CAI, downpipe, and catback exhaust system. If I had to guess, I would say I would dyno anywhere from 250-265 whp currently. And I then expect to be much closer to 300whp with FMIC and EMS. [According to CPE, I should be around 245 with the downpipe ONLY, and I have CAI and exhaust system. I can't imagine being less than 250.] So I am planning on doing a MODIFIED BASE DYNO with my current mods, and then will be doing a post FMIC/EMS + tune dyno. Let's just hope that I'm not dissapointed. Good luck with those track times. I still couldn't touch you there. I can't launch worth a d***. (wrc)

i simply don't think you will dyno 265whp with the mods you currently have, sorry. 250 might be plausible.

once again, just for reference's sake, its not a true turboback exhaust on this vehicle. the most restrictive elements of the factory exhaust system are still in place. the car performed almost no differently after the exhaust was put on the car. honestly i would like to see him remove the factory cats and downpipe so we can see some true gains from his exhaust.

time prohibited us from tearing jason's car apart and going back to stock. plus quite honestly, this dyno was meant also to disprove the erroneous notion that the XEDE does not work and the erroneous notion that it cannot control fuel. it does both of these things and does it very well. i have been asked whether or not we tried adding fuel and the answer is yes we have, and yes it works.

also, and this is my opinion mind you, we've seen enough stock dynos on dynojets with a variety of correction factors, climates, altitudes to know what most ms6s will be hitting with the few exceptions to the mean. we know the car hits between 210 and 220 for most vehicles. i have personally dynoed one stock at 205whp in ice cold weather no less. you don't see people clamoring for protege or msp baselines any more because with the rare exceptions we know where the car hits. so even accounting for the rare freak vehicle you will have or dyno variance, worst case scenario is that the XEDE is capable of adding 35 to 40 hp and best case scenario is that the XEDE can add up to 55 hp and alot more torque - with what amounts to very little work in the process. for just wiring something in and doing very little actual mapping to the unit on a stock turbo, the results are impressive in either the best case or the worst case scenarios. i don't see how its a disappointment unless you have unrealistic expectations of what a piggyback EMS should do for a car from just plug and play. there are $2500 AEM systems that don't perform this good out of the box on much more powerful cars no less.

all that said, yes i too would like to see a baseline run. i am sure once i have a base line run it still won't silence a portion of those out there. its simply the nature of things when it comes to posting dynos. i am sure this car could go run something ridiculous at the track which would validate the dynos even more so and there will be those who will still cry foul. for example, should we be able to run consistent 13.4 or 13.5 times at the track, mathematically speaking that would show a good 60 to 70hp gain from whence last the car ran.

this may surprise a few people, but i honestly thought the car was going to dyno alot lower than what it did. time willing and if jason or another customer is willing, we'll happily do baseline runs to satisfy people.

[vert]

or another customer is willing, we'll happily do baseline runs to satisfy people.
At which shop are you talking about? My MS6 just has a CAI and I would be more than willing to go back to stock and do a base run, then install the Xede and do another dyno run.

[jcgemt2003]

At which shop are you talking about? My MS6 just has a CAI and I would be more than willing to go back to stock and do a base run, then install the Xede and do another dyno run.
The shop in libertyville,Il....that would be great....Ill call Ken and let him know....maybe that will quite some of these haters up.(fuoops)

[StephanieT]

I think you're underestimating a stock MS6 whp. I've seen consistent 220's from stock. So that would make the stock MS6 (220 whp and 14psi) make a 7.67 "efficiency". No where close to below 7.0 (like you quoted).
Before you go off an a tangent, I said "average". Not every one. Even if the car has a 7.67 Eff. # it still needs help if you want it to last longer.

emt is running a 8.17 "efficiency". And anything under 8.0 you said the "car needs help". Just doesn't add up to me.
I think in most people's minds 8.17 is greater than 8.0??? When you are working on this small a scale, every little part will make a difference, whether it be good or bad. And 8.17 is headed in a MUCH better direction than it was previously.
Stephanie

[david097]

Ken,

Would it be possible to clarify his exhaust setup a bit more? He said he has a turbo back, but from what you said it sounds more like he has a catback exhaust. Does he have a full downpipe like the atp or cpe? or is it a test pipe like the one turboxs makes along with a catback? or did he just hollow out the second cat?

If you could name off all the parts on his car, or give us the details of how it is setup better I think that would help everyone out a lot.

If it's just a cat back exhaust or a testpipe and catback exhaust then I agree with you in that he probably only gained 10 horse power if it was just a catback, or maybe close to 20 if it was a catback and test pipe.

I think the real gains from exhaust upgrades in these cars, just like WRX's and STI's come from replacing the whole downpipe with a new one. Getting rid of that first cat right by the turbo and getting 3 inche pipe all the way down im sure helps way more then any catback or test pipe could.

[MUSOM]

I agree. I think you can expect more gains from a 3'' downpipe only (stock exhaust) than from a new 3'' exhaust system (stock downpipe). It's all about physics ya know. pressure, force, and area is where it's at.(doh)

[jcgemt2003]

Ken,

Would it be possible to clarify his exhaust setup a bit more? He said he has a turbo back, but from what you said it sounds more like he has a catback exhaust. Does he have a full downpipe like the atp or cpe? or is it a test pipe like the one turboxs makes along with a catback? or did he just hollow out the second cat?

If you could name off all the parts on his car, or give us the details of how it is setup better I think that would help everyone out a lot.

If it's just a cat back exhaust or a testpipe and catback exhaust then I agree with you in that he probably only gained 10 horse power if it was just a catback, or maybe close to 20 if it was a catback and test pipe.

I think the real gains from exhaust upgrades in these cars, just like WRX's and STI's come from replacing the whole downpipe with a new one. Getting rid of that first cat right by the turbo and getting 3 inche pipe all the way down im sure helps way more then any catback or test pipe could.
the stock cat right after the turbo is the only thing on my exhaust thats not
3"...my downpipe and everything else is. I have an CPE CAI and thats all.

[MUSOM]

So I sit here studying venous pressure gradients and its affect on cardiac output, I've come to the realization that your "efficiency ratio" is invalid. Let me explain.......

You say that the goal of the efficiency ratio is to increase whp without increasing boost. The equation is set up correctly to isolate the unknown. The problem, however, is that you can increase boost without affecting the workload of the turbo. The turbo is operating more efficiently, but without increased work. In physics terms, this is a more efficient closed system.

For example, I can install a FMIC on a stock MS6. This would increase whp in more than one way. First, it would increase air force and velocity (larger ducts with less resistance), secondly, the air would be cooler, and third, the FMIC will (according to sources) have a 2-3 psi DECREASED pressure drop. On average, the factory turbo is working at around 19-20 psi, but because of the pressure drop from the top mount intercooler (2-3 psi) and exhaust restrictions (1-2psi?) the turbo only puts out around 14-15 psi. So with the FMIC, the turbo will then put out around 16-17 psi vs 14-15 stock. So I have increased the efficiency of the system by approximately 10-15%. However, according to your "efficiency ratio", the only increase in efficiency would come from the increased cooler air from the FMIC, because boost is controlled for via atmospheric pressure.

It's a little thing called disinhibition, when you remove a factor that has a negative affect. I would be more than happy to explain this in terms of right atrial pressure change and crossbridge recycling via ATP phosphorylation of myosin heavy chains if you'd like? Just let me know.(dunno)


Before you go off an a tangent, I said "average". Not every one. Even if the car has a 7.67 Eff. # it still needs help if you want it to last longer.


I think in most people's minds 8.17 is greater than 8.0??? When you are working on this small a scale, every little part will make a difference, whether it be good or bad. And 8.17 is headed in a MUCH better direction than it was previously.
Stephanie

[Captain KRM P5]

the stock cat right after the turbo is the only thing on my exhaust thats not
3"...my downpipe and everything else is. I have an CPE CAI and thats all.
Ken,

Would it be possible to clarify his exhaust setup a bit more? He said he has a turbo back, but from what you said it sounds more like he has a catback exhaust. Does he have a full downpipe like the atp or cpe? or is it a test pipe like the one turboxs makes along with a catback? or did he just hollow out the second cat?

If you could name off all the parts on his car, or give us the details of how it is setup better I think that would help everyone out a lot.

If it's just a cat back exhaust or a testpipe and catback exhaust then I agree with you in that he probably only gained 10 horse power if it was just a catback, or maybe close to 20 if it was a catback and test pipe.

I think the real gains from exhaust upgrades in these cars, just like WRX's and STI's come from replacing the whole downpipe with a new one. Getting rid of that first cat right by the turbo and getting 3 inche pipe all the way down im sure helps way more then any catback or test pipe could.

lets get some definitions clarified as i think this is causing some confusion;

turbo back exhaust - an exhaust system starting at the turbocharger housing and going to the back of the vehicle. this car does not have that.

downpipe - section of exhaust going from the turbo to the midsection. this part of the vehicle including the emissions gear/sensors. this downpipe is stock.

from the downpipe back the system is 3 inch setup with a glasspack. intake system is CP-E. the car is otherwise unmodified.

[david097]

Thanks ken,

Since the stock downpipe is still in place then I would agree with them that he probably at most gained 20 horse power. Which if his car dynoed stock at lets say 215 then the exhaust mods would probably put him at about 235. So there estimates of around 30-40 horse power gained are most likely very close to being correct :)

Also the second cat is gone correct?

[Captain KRM P5]

http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123664974

intake + exhaust = 13.8 second quarter mile
intake + exhaust + XEDE = 13.1 second quarter mile

no, its not a baseline dyno and yes one will still be gotten, but saying now that the unit isn't adding some real power on its own would be nothing short of foolish. shaving 7/10 of a second off a 1/4 mile time is hard enough. shaving it off in the 12 and 13 second range is exponentially harder.

[MUSOM]

13.1 is impressive. have a slip? video?

[MUSOM]

nevermind me. didn't see the link

13.1 is impressive. have a slip? video?

[Rainman]

Great work guys!

R

[DSMConvert]

Musom - take a look at the stock turbo threads and you'll see 19psi is well outside the efficiency zone... So if you're going to make quotes on efficiency formulas don't contradict yourself by claiming you're going to run 19psi on the stock turbo. Secondly I'm not sure you are correctly using the terms air force(which I've actually never heard used in the context you are using it) and velocity, b/c if you increase ducting diameter you will decrease boost pressure thus directly affecting velocity... to illustrate my point this is why you place your thumb over the end of the hose to squirt. You decrease duct diameter thus increasing pressure and finally directly increase the velocity of the exiting water. However I do agree with the main point you are trying to make...the eff rating of the ms6 has much room for improvement and with a high quality fmic setup(same size ducting and a <=1psi pressure drop) you could indeed increase the eff while technically not increasing the workload required by the turbo.

On the xeded results claims...while I'll trust that Ken will provide a baseline dyno for comparo purposes, I will back the results as I have personally done the research independent of his testing. The stock ms6 ecu maps make the msp ecu look like a tuner god. I would have no problem putting money down that a good retune of the stock ecu alone would net 15+whp and I wouldn't be suprised if someone was able to squeeze out 20-30whp.

[jcgemt2003]

Musom - take a look at the stock turbo threads and you'll see 19psi is well outside the efficiency zone... So if you're going to make quotes on efficiency formulas don't contradict yourself by claiming you're going to run 19psi on the stock turbo. Secondly I'm not sure you are correctly using the terms air force(which I've actually never heard used in the context you are using it) and velocity, b/c if you increase ducting diameter you will decrease boost pressure thus directly affecting velocity... to illustrate my point this is why you place your thumb over the end of the hose to squirt. You decrease duct diameter thus increasing pressure and finally directly increase the velocity of the exiting water. However I do agree with the main point you are trying to make...the eff rating of the ms6 has much room for improvement and with a high quality fmic setup(same size ducting and a <=1psi pressure drop) you could indeed increase the eff while technically not increasing the workload required by the turbo.

On the xeded results claims...while I'll trust that Ken will provide a baseline dyno for comparo purposes, I will back the results as I have personally done the research independent of his testing. The stock ms6 ecu maps make the msp ecu look like a tuner god. I would have no problem putting money down that a good retune of the stock ecu alone would net 15+whp and I wouldn't be suprised if someone was able to squeeze out 20-30whp.
Dude did you see the track results?

[Karma_hunden]

yo jcgemt2003, did you flatshifted? at what rpm did you launched?

[jcgemt2003]

yo jcgemt2003, did you flatshifted? at what rpm did you launched?
Launched at about 5k and shifted around 5800rpms

[MS6S2K]

So what about someone like me, who doesn't want to modify the intake and exhaust. I'm looking for a future plug and play ecu tuner, to give the car some more pop then it has now. The 1/4 mile comparison saying the Xede will take 6-7ths off your 1/4 mile time is also saying it adds 40-50whp on it's own essentially. What is a realistic and safe gain by just installing and running this, with no other mods? NO catback, no CAI, NOTHING. Just plug it in and go. Opinions are welcomed, as obviously there are no facts on this, because a totally bone stock Speed 6 has not been tested baseline dyno, and then with just the Xede installed. Thanks!! :)

[chuyler1]

I've been waiting for a stock before/after dyno also...and I am waiting to see whether this will be plug-and-play too.

[Captain KRM P5]

I've been waiting for a stock before/after dyno also...and I am waiting to see whether this will be plug-and-play too.

we're told the harnesses are a definete at this point, just a matter of details. i'm not going to throw out firm dates and empty promises to disappoint people. all i can say to this effect is "it will happen when it happens"

which, regardless, people will still post and ask when its going to be plug and play :)

[chuyler1]

No rush from me...I'm waiting patiently since I won't have the cash for a while anyway. I just like to see progress instead of bickering about dyno/track results.

[Captain KRM P5]

agreed. personally i feel the unit more than proved itself thus far. claim one was that the unit did not work - disproven. claim two was that the unit would not make power over stock - disproven. claim three was that the unit would not be able to add fuel - disproven.

whatever more information people would like me to supply, please let me know. i intend to for the sake of the community.

[wwpms6]

we're told the harnesses are a definete at this point, just a matter of details. i'm not going to throw out firm dates and empty promises to disappoint people. all i can say to this effect is "it will happen when it happens"

which, regardless, people will still post and ask when its going to be plug and play :)


when is it going to be plug and play? lol

jk.

[Captain KRM P5]

when is it going to be plug and play? lol

jk.

timmy you are such a comedian

[Blackrose]

Ken you are the man...... oh yeah Aric too.

[Bokerparts]

I don't know why you guys are not able to flash the ms6 ECU? In Germany we are able since month.

[StephanieT]

Someone cracked the ECU??? Or are you referring to a dealer re-flash?
Stephanie

[Bokerparts]

Yes they cracked the ECU month ago. They also cracked it for MS3.

[trees]

who is "they"

[Bokerparts]

I can't post a link. It is not allowed. I PM you.

[chuyler1]

You can't post a link? What is this the nazi secret tuning service?

[Bokerparts]

You can't post a link? What is this the nazi secret tuning service?

Reason: referenced german parts company link (advertising)

Thats it

[trees]

You can't post a link? What is this the nazi secret tuning service?

I think he means this site wont let him post a link...thanks for the pm Bokerparts, now i just need to learn how to read german.

[Nutari]

cross posting some stock speed 6 dyno runs I just found. (Just for fun)

These are from BiggTimm

[MS64MEE]

I think he means this site wont let him post a link...thanks for the pm Bokerparts, now i just need to learn how to read german.

Try babelfish. It will translate from German to English (& many other combos) either chunks of text or entire websites. I've used it for Dutch, Spanish, French & German with decent success. Here's the link: http://babelfish.altavista.com/

[ssinstaller]

I can't post a link. It is not allowed. I PM you.

Can you PM me the link also??

[chuyler1]

So did anyone translate yet?

[DSMConvert]

I speak german someone wanna forward me the link and I'll translate it. I had heard rumors from UK peeps that they had cracked it. Kudos to whomever did we worked on the msp one for months and the hex coding they use was way out of the league of anything I've ever used.

[Bokerparts]

They told me you can send your ECU and they will flash it to 301bhp and 339 torque without any suporting mods. What else do you want to know?

[chuyler1]

Are there differences between the MS6 and euro MPS that would require adjustments? Will it pass emissions tests? does it throw CELs? How much would it cost for one of us to send and ECU to them and get back a new one? Will they provide support if things don't work as expected? etc, etc, etc.

[MazdaJeff]

I might be a little off topic, but I called Cobb and they indicated that they HAVE cracked the ECU as well. There seems to be a different communications protocol being used and they are waiting for the appropriate cables. He did mention that they should have a product on the shelves end June early July.

[chuyler1]

product? like a piggy back? or another "send us your ecu and we'll reflash it" type thing.

[MazdaJeff]

Access Port, so re-flash. Like they have for the WRX.

[chuyler1]

sweet... well, until I find out how much it will cost me.

[Japan8]

About $600-$700.

Check Cobb Forums for info on it... but in the MS3 section. Looks like there is quite a bit going on there. I posted up some of the info from Trey Cobb on the other Mazda 6 forum (it got moved to "other cars").

[vert]

They told me you can send your ECU and they will flash it to 301bhp and 339 torque without any suporting mods. What else do you want to know?
Do they offer a dealer reflash insurance? In other words, they flash the ECU to 301bhp and you take your car to dealer and they reflash your ECU. All will be lost.

[LBV]

Can anyone identify this mysterious tuner? Gimme a name that I can atleast google ...

[jcgemt2003]

They told me you can send your ECU and they will flash it to 301bhp and 339 torque without any suporting mods. What else do you want to know?
That comes out to a whopping 240whp.

[Bokerparts]

That comes out to a whopping 240whp.

Sorry it is 318bhp we don't have bhp here in Germany. We do have DIN PS.

[jcgemt2003]

Sorry it is 318bhp we don't have bhp here in Germany. We do have DIN PS.
That sounds more like it.

[MS6S2K]

I might be a little off topic, but I called Cobb and they indicated that they HAVE cracked the ECU as well. There seems to be a different communications protocol being used and they are waiting for the appropriate cables. He did mention that they should have a product on the shelves end June early July.


Ty for that info, but supposedly it's prohibited to mention another product on a Xede thread, so moderators, you have some extra clean up on this thread to do.

[Koenig]

whatever happened to Bokerparts and the German thing? can someone PM me the information?