another mazdaspeed CAI thread

[SwampAss]

Does anyone have them in stock? As in, I pick up phone, talk to parts person, give them credit card number, and then they send me parts?


Am I a little too early for such a silly notion?


Here's a trippy picture eitherway:


http://www.in-the-basement.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10013/and20then20i20saw20godzi1.gif

[C'ville]

I ordered two by mistake, I'll sell you one for $250








































































J/K


online mazda parts said they just git them in when I ordered my manual last week.

[voiceKoil]

They had one on Ebay on auction, Im not sure when it ends or if it ended, it was a mazdaspeed CAI, and CPE sayes on their page in stock, which is new to me http://www.cp-e.com/2101.html, so I would check either of those places if you havent already!

http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/1/web/2497000-2497999/2497424_33_full.jpg

[meha11]

i got an email from tonkin mazda today they have a couple left. they told me they would sell 1 to me for $310 but i had just got one from street unit (dont know if i can say that cos they have a forum too, sorry if i messed up) this morning also for $310 to the door, they say they are pre order but they do have them in stock.

i argued with my local dealer this weekend, they said they were not available yet and would be $819.

[Funkycoldg]

Yeah my dealer told me $800somethin too and then I had them recheck and then he saw he was wrong and tolf me $399. I am hoping to get it alittle less. he told me they dont make too much on the speed parts but maybe could give me 10% off. Have your dealer recheck again!

[SwampAss]

Muchos gracious folks. Oh..F YOU C'ville!

[Rotus8]

I ordered mine yesterday from
http://www.trademotion.com/partlocator/index.cfm?action=AccessoryCatalog&catalogid=3987&siteid=214264&categoryID=103481
Shipped today.

[flyrevs]

I ordered two by mistake, I'll sell you one for $250

I want it, PM me if you are serious








































































J/K


online mazda parts said they just git them in when I ordered my manual last week.

[jomoyo069]

whered u get that pic from?

[SwampAss]

Dave's not here man

[MadOzodi]

Umm, there's a GB post in this forum by Captain Caveman. Ok, that's not really his name but it should be cuz Captain Caveman was the shit...funky hairy ass cave d00d with what, 3 chicks with him all the time?

[ptperformance]

Give me 2 weeks and we will have something for you was well.

[SwampAss]

Umm, there's a GB post in this forum by Captain Caveman. Ok, that's not really his name but it should be cuz Captain Caveman was the shit...funky hairy ass cave d00d with what, 3 chicks with him all the time?

How could you forget this guy?

http://www.deniskitchen.com/docs/bios/bios.shmoo.bw.jpg

[Bakrauf]

I'll get My mazda CAI tommorrow afternoon. WHOOOT!

[SwampAss]

I'll get My mazda CAI tommorrow afternoon. WHOOOT!


i belive mine is also on it's way shortly. (nailbyt) (fu)

[Rotus8]

How could you forget this guy?
Shmoo?

[SwampAss]

X gets the square.

[boosted3]

2007 MS3 APC pepboys wing, LED license plate bolts, 20x8.5 Giovanna Chrome ARARAT knock offs with plated gold centers, 235/30/r20s, heat sagged factory springs, double ebay blow off valves, and tire flys. **under construction**

Need the hook-up on those LED LP bolts and double BOV's. The 20x8.5 Gionanna chromes are a joke, though.. right?

[SwampAss]

I Got Me A Marlin!

http://www.foxharbr.com/recreation/activities/deep-sea-fishing.jpg

[MadOzodi]

Why don't I remember that guy? I mean, I *seriously* don't...and I'm tryin hard to. Did Capt. Caveman and Gloop get smashed and have a one-night stand together or something?

[boosted3]

Apparently sarcasm goes over like a turd in a punch bowl here. I'll be sure to add smilies and the cute-little-icon-of-the-day to ensure my attempt at humor isn't taken too seriously. Marlin? It seems I'm the one doing the reeling....

[SwampAss]

You got me. Reading that as how you intended makes me laugh harder than before. Please throw me back. I'm too small to be a keeper.

[Olestra]

All u need is a photoshopped pic with all that crap on your car in your sig.

[SwampAss]

you give swamp ideas.

[Bakrauf]

[QUOTE=SwampAss]i belive mine is also on it's way shortly. (nailbyt)(fu) QUOTE]


Got my CAI in today and its on my car Swampass -(fu)

Its very nice and feels good too (lick)

[Mspeed3]

pic of MS CAI

[Bakrauf]

Camera is not working I wish it was. I would take pics of my arms they look like I took razorblades to them, from elbow to wrist. I belive you will shed some blood installing this thing

[SwampAss]

how long did it take, what's your level of skill, and any tricks to it?

[C'ville]

Heres some pics for your swamp...LOL

[SwampAss]

I look like the first guy. Really

[C'ville]

I need Pics (rofl2)


I look like the first guy. Really

[Bakrauf]

how long did it take, what's your level of skill, and any tricks to it?


Took me and hour maybe hour and a half. Skill level-Medium, (Installed CAI on other mods on my MSP).--->If i cant get it off i break it off or cut it off! (hand) I took a look at the pics people have posted on the forums, which helped a lot. The biggest pain in the ass was that air direction thingy in front of the drivers side, wheel just behind the fog light. I simply popped the pins holding it to the left side then jerked the shit out of it (left and right rotating it) until I could get a good angle at the screw which is recessed and WAY at the top. That thing took me about 20 mins to get off. After peeling back the wheel well liner it was fairly simple. The install of the CAI really easy. The hardest part is taking all the stuff OFF the car prior to installing. Now its time for(cheers). Need help with anything PM me.

[SwampAss]

Need help with anything PM me.

Fukdat! I'm coming to your house. You're doing it for me!

[smoker6]

Fellow Virginians! I'll need help too! LOL I've got the MS6 though. heh I can't find anyone in VA that has an MS6 as well (yet to see one).

[SwampAss]

where in Va?

[smoker6]

Chesterfield county (Midlothian)

[SwampAss]

Finally, someone who isn't in Nova

[Adammazda06]

Took me and hour maybe hour and a half. Skill level-Medium, (Installed CAI on other mods on my MSP).--->If i cant get it off i break it off or cut it off! (hand) I took a look at the pics people have posted on the forums, which helped a lot. The biggest pain in the ass was that air direction thingy in front of the drivers side, wheel just behind the fog light. I simply popped the pins holding it to the left side then jerked the shit out of it (left and right rotating it) until I could get a good angle at the screw which is recessed and WAY at the top. That thing took me about 20 mins to get off. After peeling back the wheel well liner it was fairly simple. The install of the CAI really easy. The hardest part is taking all the stuff OFF the car prior to installing. Now its time for(cheers). Need help with anything PM me.

myself and my coworker who is also a schooled mechanic put on my mazdaspeed intake in just over an hour. not terribly difficult just time consuming. and yes, breaking the air direction piece once inside the wheel well is the best way. release a few bolts and then yank. the intake sounds great, and the bypass valve can now be heard loud and clear.

[Bakrauf]

See you dont have to be a skilled mehcanic to tear stuff up..lol

[CTGrey02]

Would it have been easier to just drop the front bumper cover off?

[Bakrauf]

Not for me, no way in hell am I gonna take off the front bumper.

[Adammazda06]

Yeah I agree. A good yank is the best way.

[maestro]

Not for me, no way in hell am I gonna take off the front bumper.
Honestly easier than you think.

[Karma_hunden]

Why buy a CAI? It only makes a big difference on N/A cars...my friend had one on his other MS6, and we ran and we were even...we ran while it was cold and he pulled a bumper...or if you want to exagerate, half a car...i still wouldnt pay 290bucks for half a car of improvement...now, for the catless dp...he put that one and he pulled 3 cars on me and was still pulling.

[SwampAss]

are the dyno reports bunk?

[Speedy3]

are the dyno reports bunk?

Dyno coming tomorrow. Actually, I can tell you the % gain in 3rd and 4th gear. 1st and 2nd will have to wait for the rain to stop here; too much slippage and 5th and 6th are too fast for me to test. If you all are wondering, I use Auterra Dyno-Scan SW for the Dyno test.

I ran 6 runs today before installing the CAI. Mean values are:

3rd Gear: 224 HP @ 5300 RPM, 238.8 ft lbs @ 4233 RPM
4th Gear: 253 HP @ 5500 RPM, 255.8 ft lbs @ 4333 RPM

These numbers represent the power and torque at the wheels. The value to focus on will be the % difference from the stock numbers to the numbers I get tomorrow with the CAI installed.

Numbers with MS CAI to come tomorrow, Saturday, 3-2-2007.

I installed my MazdaSpeed CAI today and man, it makes a very noticable difference. The car pulls harder in lower RPMs now and third gear now loses traction on wet pavement whereas it didn't before. I didn't have time today to test the poer/torque with the CAI caus I already got crap from the wife for taking 2 hours to get the baseline numbers above (I had to drive out towards Mt. Rainier to do the test runs. No traffic out there) and 2 hours to install the CAI.

I will also try and post intake manifold temperature differences from stock to upgraded with MS CAI.

[Speedy3]

Ok, damn it, I'm going on a test run! BRB.

[MadOzodi]

Haha, late night test run ftw! Been 15min. already

/taps foot

[Speedy3]

Haha, late night test run ftw! Been 15min. already

/taps foot

Ok, got it! I ran 3 runs in 3rd gear WITH the MazdaSpeed CAI. Here are my results (Mean values of 3 runs each):

Stock
3rd Gear: 224.0 HP @ 5300 RPM, 238.8 ft-lbs @ 4233 RPM

With MS CAI
3rd Gear: 247.5 HP @ 5200 RPM, 273.0 ft-lbs @ 4267 RPM

The gains

HP: 10%
Torque: 14.3%

Based on Mazda's baseline figures of 263 HP @ 280 ft-lbs Torque, the new numbers should reflect my measured gains and would be 290.5 HP @ 320.1 ft-lbs of Torque!!! That is a gain of 27.5 HP and 20.1 ft-lbs of Torque!

I will do more tests when it dries out here and try doing it in all gears. BTW, I only took measurements without wheel spin. In some cases, I had to feather the throttle to prevent it.

[flyrevs]

Ok, got it! I ran 3 runs in 3rd gear WITH the MazdaSpeed CAI. Here are my results (Mean values of 3 runs each):

Stock
3rd Gear: 224.0 HP @ 5300 RPM, 238.8 ft-lbs @ 4233 RPM

With MS CAI
3rd Gear: 247.5 HP @ 5200 RPM, 273.0 ft-lbs @ 4267 RPM

The gains

HP: 10%
Torque: 14.3%

Based on Mazda's baseline figures of 263 HP @ 280 ft-lbs Torque, the new numbers should reflect my measured gains and would be 290.5 HP @ 320.1 ft-lbs of Torque!!! That is a gain of 27.5 HP and 20.1 ft-lbs of Torque!

I will do more tests when it dries out here and try doing it in all gears. BTW, I only took measurements without wheel spin. In some cases, I had to feather the throttle to prevent it. Sweet! A guy at the dealer who knows a lot about the Speed said the MS CAI adds 35 crank hp, I tried to correct him that that was with CAI and CBE and he corrected me: "35 crank HP". Your measurement of 27.5 wheel hp is on par with his number. Man this is awsome(nana)

[Airmack]

so this is better than cpe... interesting

[Speedy3]

Sweet! A guy at the dealer who knows a lot about the Speed said the MS CAI adds 35 crank hp, I tried to correct him that that was with CAI and CBE and he corrected me: "35 crank HP". Your measurement of 27.5 wheel hp is on par with his number. Man this is awsome(nana)

Had a much better, more consistent run today with dry pavement. Check my most recent post on the third to last entry here:

http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123662057&page=5

Turns out my better run today produced 34.5 HP difference which lines right up with what they told you!

[flyrevs]

Hey I hope this 35 HP number is real. I'm a bit surprised that there aren't people jumping in on this one, telling us that 35 HP is full of crap. Where is everyone on this topic? This is the first post that I have seen stating the MS3 CAI measured gains.

[SwampAss]

Hey I hope this 35 HP number is real. I'm a bit surprised that there aren't people jumping in on this one, telling us that 35 HP is full of crap. Where is everyone on this topic? This is the first post that I have seen stating the MS3 CAI measured gains.

I've seen lots of threads pertaining to CAI and the perception of increased gains. I've even seen a few threads about modded airboxes adding perceived power. Wasn't there an article in Sport Compact in regard to a measurable gain from opening the stock airbox on the MS3?

I don't know the accuracy of the software or method this gentleman is using to show his gains, but it's clearly showing something. The reports thus far show the car feeling totally different after the CAI install. Independant people who do not represent a company selling the item. I will withhold any and all judgement of the product until mine is fitted and I get some seat time.
All cars are different. In the motorcycle field, I've rejetted bikes and added full exhausts, velocity stacks, and advancers to only gain 3-4 peak HP on the dyno yet change the slip on pipe and main jets on another to gain 18hp.

[Rotus8]

I just got back from an "after" dyno run with the MazdaSpeed CAI. I am using the same measurement equipment as Speedy, with very similar but not identical setup files. Also my conditions are quite different although the software is supposed to correct for it. The one variable I am not able to input with any accruacy is the humidity so I had to estimate that; I hope it doesn't make much difference. My runs were all taken using 3rd gear to keep the speeds within reason.

My results are not as sparkling as Speedy's. I got a 20 ftlb torque increase (8.5%) and an 11 hp power increase (5%). My numbers were quite repeatable over 4 runs. While not incredible, I am happy the numbers at least are positive! I was certainly reaching the shut-down point earlier than my baseline runs.

I did not reset my ECU after the CAI installation and drove it about 20 miles from my shop to my "private" testing strip. I may reset the ECU and try again after some miles, or I may call my dealer about the ECU reflash rumor which will effectively reset the ECU anyway.

Interesting noises too!

[Speedy3]

I just got back from an "after" dyno run with the MazdaSpeed CAI. I am using the same measurement equipment as Speedy, with very similar but not identical setup files. Also my conditions are quite different although the software is supposed to correct for it. The one variable I am not able to input with any accruacy is the humidity so I had to estimate that; I hope it doesn't make much difference. My runs were all taken using 3rd gear to keep the speeds within reason.

My results are not as sparkling as Speedy's. I got a 20 ftlb torque increase (8.5%) and an 11 hp power increase (5%). My numbers were quite repeatable over 4 runs. While not incredible, I am happy the numbers at least are positive! I was certainly reaching the shut-down point earlier than my baseline runs.

I did not reset my ECU after the CAI installation and drove it about 20 miles from my shop to my "private" testing strip. I may reset the ECU and try again after some miles, or I may call my dealer about the ECU reflash rumor which will effectively reset the ECU anyway.

Interesting noises too!

What are the measured HP/Torque numbers you got? Are you going WOT on all your runs? Also^2, are you starting consistently at the same RPM and as low of an RPM as possible? You also need to take it as high as possible to make sure you hit the peak power; at least 6k RPM. I start at 1k RPM, accellerate at WOT then upshift / cut the gas at 6k RPM. The later is important to let the Dyno SW determine the end of the data collection. Simply clicking "done" won't give the best results. You either upshift then let off the gas and click "done" or let off the gas, push in the clutch and brake to a stop, then click "done".

[Speedy3]

Hey I hope this 35 HP number is real. I'm a bit surprised that there aren't people jumping in on this one, telling us that 35 HP is full of crap. Where is everyone on this topic? This is the first post that I have seen stating the MS3 CAI measured gains.

Remember, i'm not claiming gains of 35 HP. I measured average gains in HP from 27.5 to 34.2 HP. If you want to really analyze the difference I would have to do at least 30 runs in each configuration and do a complete statistcal analysis. You could take the worse-case and best-case numbers and say that the gains potentially were 23.8 HP to 36 HP. I did notice that my stock air filter had some debris in it, so the other factor here could be somewhat restricted airflow in the stock configuration. What I will do, is do some runs on a brand new MS3 (given the dealer will let me) and compare those results to my results on the CAI.

[Rotus8]

What are the measured HP/Torque numbers you got? Are you going WOT on all your runs? Also^2, are you starting consistently at the same RPM and as low of an RPM as possible? You also need to take it as high as possible to make sure you hit the peak power; at least 6k RPM. I start at 1k RPM, accellerate at WOT then upshift / cut the gas at 6k RPM. The later is important to let the Dyno SW determine the end of the data collection. Simply clicking "done" won't give the best results. You either upshift then let off the gas and click "done" or let off the gas, push in the clutch and brake to a stop, then click "done".
Baseline, 3 runs, Torque 231 +/- 7, Power 211 +/- 3
CAI, 4 runs, Torque 251 +/- 4, Power 222 +/- 2

I started each run at 2000 in 3rd, WOT, held until 6500 :eek: . Clicking done at 6k in 3rd is not an option - too busy driving! (I was doing this solo)

I am going to export the data to a spread-sheet and do some averages of the full graphs and display both versions on one graph to see what the gains are across the band, rather than just peak. I suspect due to the shape of the curves the peaks may be misleading.

[Bakrauf]

(mj)

[Speedy3]

Baseline, 3 runs, Torque 231 +/- 7, Power 211 +/- 3
CAI, 4 runs, Torque 251 +/- 4, Power 222 +/- 2

I started each run at 2000 in 3rd, WOT, held until 6500 :eek: . Clicking done at 6k in 3rd is not an option - too busy driving! (I was doing this solo)

I am going to export the data to a spread-sheet and do some averages of the full graphs and display both versions on one graph to see what the gains are across the band, rather than just peak. I suspect due to the shape of the curves the peaks may be misleading.

Ok, I see one problem. Start at lower RPMS. I did previous runs at around 2k RPMs and got lower power results. Try and start at 1k-1500 RPMS.

Thanks for posting the data! Very low variance.

[flyrevs]

Ok, I see one problem. Start at lower RPMS. I did previous runs at around 2k RPMs and got lower power results. Try and start at 1k-1500 RPMS.

Thanks for posting the data! Very low variance.
Yea, good point about starting out at lower rpms, that pesky boost limit is rearing it's ugly head if you start out with the rpms too high.

Thanks for posting your data. Let us know what you come up with when you start out at lower rpms. (yes)

[SwampAss]

Mine is to be delivered today. A day ahead of shedual (say it like a brit)

I'll slap it on in a day or 3.



Thanks RonTatonka Mazda!

http://www.museumofthemountainman.com/news/thb-tatonka.jpg


Justin is good people BTW

[Rotus8]

By the way, when mine arrived, the strap across the filter shield was loose on one end. I drilled holes in the center of each end and put little SS bolts and nylock nuts on. Another possibility would be pop-rivets but I didn't have any handy. I suggest you check yours as the thing would rattle around a lot if the strap is loose. The attachment of the strap is just with some pushed in dimples which seem a bit flakey to me.

[SwampAss]

Thanks for the info. I'll make sure to check that out.

[gsrtype1]

Does anyone have them in stock? As in, I pick up phone, talk to parts person, give them credit card number, and then they send me parts?


Am I a little too early for such a silly notion?


Here's a trippy picture eitherway:


http://www.in-the-basement.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10013/and20then20i20saw20godzi1.gif

[Speedy3]

Dynojet Dyno Results with MAZDASPEED CAI here:

http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showt...3662057&page=6

[udontknowjack]

Dynojet Dyno Results with MAZDASPEED CAI here:

http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showt...3662057&page=6


doesnt work

[SwampAss]

copy link please! I can't read the dots yo!

[RonTonkinMazda]

Mine is to be delivered today. A day ahead of shedual (say it like a brit)

I'll slap it on in a day or 3.



Thanks RonTatonka Mazda!

http://www.museumofthemountainman.com/news/thb-tatonka.jpg


Justin is good people BTW


lol Ron Tatonka Mazda....

Ron Tonkin Mazda

glad to hear it came in early that never happens with UPS

-Josh

[SwampAss]

dammit Josh. I meant to say Josh.

[Bakrauf]

Link dont work!!

[Speedy3]

Link dont work!!

Sorry:

http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123662057&page=6

"http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123662057&page=6"

[stretch]

Speedy, you've ignored my request for fuel trim data. Did you miss it, or do you not have the a scan tool? If not, I understand.

I wrote this on another board, but it belongs in this thread too:

Yikes! Somebody measure their fuel trims with this intake.
http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m51/tru-boost/cai.jpg

The MAF is mounted after a bend in the pipe which is a HUGE no-no. Actually, it's between bends, which is even worse. Your MAF accuracy is going to be terrible. This intake is producing huge dyno numbers because it is leaning out the air/fuel ratio, plain and simple. While it feel may good, you're screwing yourself in the long run.

In fact, Cobb tuning (respectable company) once tested an intake that put the MAF after a curve. It was an SPT intake, which is to Subaru what Mazdaspeed is to Mazda- an official part. They found that since the MAF was mounted after a curve, it would sometimes report the engine getting less air even as actual air flow ROSE, and vice versa. I'll repeat that: as the engine drew in more air, the MAF sometimes reported a lower air velocity.

The dynamics of the air within the pipe varied according to velocity (think about the air going to the outside of the bend), and since the MAF only reads air flow in the center, the MAF accuracy went to hell. This is why all OE airboxes use a straight velocity stack (off of a huge airbox) and put the MAF directly after the opening. This is also why companies who actually do R&D, like Custom Performance Engineering, use expensive CNC'd MAF housings and air straighteners to get the fuel trims back to stock.

Strike two is that this intake clearly uses a MAF on tube design, and aluminum tube is not sold (at least not cheaply) in specific enough diameters for this to work. Mazdaspeed may have the diameter close, but air velocity is, I think, something like a 4th power of pipe diameter, so even being off a small amount means the MAF will be off by a lot. In the Mazda6 community, every intake used a 2.75 or 2.5" pipe- since neither matched the stock diameter, every intake threw a CEL unless it had a fuel tuner to correct the MAF (no exaggeration, every single one ever released). Now, the Mazdaspeeds aren't as quick to set a CEL, but they are every bit as sensitive to pipe changes, and being DISA turbos, MAF accuracy is even more important than a naturally aspirated engine.

Mark my words: this intake is a mis-engineered piece of crap. You might wonder why I'm bitter, and it's because Mazda puts their name on these ho-hum aftermarket parts. It's a disgrace. The Mazdaspeed intake for the Mazda6 was just a rebadged AEM intake that Mazda marked up for more money, and it too threw a CEL.

This intake will work well on a stock car just because they are tuned so incredibly conservative and rich from the factory, but once ECU tuning becomes available, this intake is going to be an Achilles heal. As I said earlier, this intake will dyno high because it leans out the air/fuel ratio- hell, the worse and intake is in this regard, the higher it will dyno. These are what I'd call ricer gains, because Mazdaspeed intake owners will not be able to use Cobb's reflash nor CPE's upcoming piggyback, at least not without paying for custom tuning and dyno time, and MAF corrections are extremely difficult to do even with a Mustang dyno (which a lot of tuners don't even have).

Those who do run ECU tuners may find their engine detonating or worse, since the MAF, which the ECU relies on for fuel metering, won't know what the hell it's reporting. MAF accuracy becomes incredibly important when you tune an engine more aggressively. Without a way to produce an accurate air/fuel ratio, you'll be forced to tune the car very conservatively- like old turbo cars. The ECU won't even know the true load the engine is under. The intake combined with an off-the-shelf ECU tune will surely produce a too-lean situation since the ECU tune will lean out the air/fuel ratio a few points beyond what the intake is tuning- it won't be able to tell that your car's MAF is off. It relies on it. Hell, that's why it's there. Ten years ago cars, turbo cars used MAP sensors, and they had to be tuned conservatively because MAP sensors aren't as accurate. The Mazdaspeed3 has both, but with your intake messing up the MAF, you're essentially taking three steps backwards.

Anyway, I know everyone's excited because it's a cheap way to make horsepower, but please understand why it makes that power and what the long-term consequences are. If you're fine with buying an intake with the engineering pedigree of one of those "eBay resistors" (they make power the same way, throwing off the MAF!), then go ahead. Free market and such. However, I'd strongly recommend owners instead get an intake like Custom Performance Engineering's, since it keeps your MAF accurate while still alleviating the pressure drop, so it'll be balls-on accurate with piggybacks and ECU reflashes down the road. It's the proper way to tune, with no parts stepping on one another's heels. But perhaps most importantly, you won't have the inconsistent rise of MAF voltage- the CPE intake keeps this sensor linear and reliable. If you don't want CPE's intake, given the current market options, stay stock and see if another decent design hits the market.

[stretch]

Dynojet Dyno Results with MAZDASPEED CAI here:

http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showt...3662057&page=6

Speedy, I think the your "scanner dyno" results and these real-life dyno results are confirming something: that the ECU doesn't know what it's doing anymore. The reported gains from users are anywhere between 10hp and 35hp!

I'd estimate the gains from relieving the pressure drop in the intake path should amount to 15-20hp; anything more or less is likely coming from the air/fuel ratio changing. Either it'll lean it out (see above post) and you'll make more power than expected, or the car will get confused and make too large of a correction- and perhaps even pull timing- resulting in lower-than-expected gains. See, when you have the MAF after a bend, the correction needed at an RPM and load will not be the same as the same RPM but a different load. The ECU can't deal with this, but it tries, and these "tries" may be why power gains are so inconsistent.

[SwampAss]

So I plan to use a poorly designed product to help correct a poorly tuned car? Does Mazda sub contract to the government?

[Rotus8]

Stretch,
Can you post some pictures of your MAF tubing setup. I think it would be quite informative and supportive of your views. Thanks.

[stretch]

I don't have any, but I know I've seen them. Anyone got a link? Maybe CPE can post some pictures. I can certainly explain what I know of their system, though I'm sure CPE can explain it better than I can.

CPE puts the MAF after a bend (a no-no), but they used air straighteners after the bend. Air straighteners work (I've seen them used in OE cars- I think the Maxima uses them?), but usually at the expense of air flow. CPE puts them in the large diameter pipe before the MAF housing to alleviate flow problems while still reducing the turbulence created by the bend.

After the straighteners, CPE welds in their MAF housing. This housing is CNC'd from a solid block of aluminum- it is NOT made from normal aluminum tubing. This is expensive and time consuming to produce, but the CNC machine lets them make extremely precise and intricate shapes- a necessity. CPE uses this flexibility to taper the pipe down right at the MAF housing to create a spot-on match to the stock MAF calibration. I don't think it tapers down completely to the stock size, which is why it can still alleviate the huge pressure drop around the MAF, but because they can shape this mount any way they want, they can direct air to the MAF as needed to match the stock calibration.

After the MAF housing, CPE tapers back up to "normal" aluminum tubing.

I don't think anybody else in the industry does this, probably because it's an expensive and time-consuming process. Like I said, perhaps CPE will chime in or someone else can post pictures of what I'm talking about.

The Mazdaspeed intake is just one big incorrectly-sized tube with a MAF housing. This is very cheap and easy to produce and manufacture- a high profit solution. However, the MAF sensor's accuracy is compromised for the reasons I explained in the previous post.

[RonTonkinMazda]

stretch does not even own a speed3 he has not seen a MS CAI in person or a CPE it is a shame that someone speeds so much time bashing a product the know nothing about.

[www.cp-e.com]

I don't have any, but I know I've seen them. Anyone got a link? Maybe CPE can post some pictures. I can certainly explain what I know of their system, though I'm sure CPE can explain it better than I can.

CPE puts the MAF after a bend (a no-no), but they used air straighteners after the bend. Air straighteners work (I've seen them used in OE cars- I think the Maxima uses them?), but usually at the expense of air flow. CPE puts them in the large diameter pipe before the MAF housing to alleviate flow problems while still reducing the turbulence created by the bend.

After the straighteners, CPE welds in their MAF housing. This housing is CNC'd from a solid block of aluminum- it is NOT made from normal aluminum tubing. This is expensive and time consuming to produce, but the CNC machine lets them make extremely precise and intricate shapes- a necessity. CPE uses this flexibility to taper the pipe down right at the MAF housing to create a spot-on match to the stock MAF calibration. I don't think it tapers down completely to the stock size, which is why it can still alleviate the huge pressure drop around the MAF, but because they can shape this mount any way they want, they can direct air to the MAF as needed to match the stock calibration.

After the MAF housing, CPE tapers back up to "normal" aluminum tubing.

I don't think anybody else in the industry does this, probably because it's an expensive and time-consuming process. Like I said, perhaps CPE will chime in or someone else can post pictures of what I'm talking about.

The Mazdaspeed intake is just one big incorrectly-sized tube with a MAF housing. This is very cheap and easy to produce and manufacture- a high profit solution. However, the MAF sensor's accuracy is compromised for the reasons I explained in the previous post.



Thanks for explaining the process to everyone stretch. I think people are assuming that our MAF housing is 2.75" like the Mazdaspeed piece, but it is not. we can't disclose the diameter we use, but it is NOT 2.75", it is smaller than that by a good margin. And we don't do that to restrict flow, we do it so we can properly meter the air.

I think it would help if I posted a picture of our MAF housings in transition from raw aluminum into a MAF housing.

http://www.mustangmods.com/ims/u/535/644/150086.jpg

In the picture above, you can see the progress from left to right. We start with a 3" aluminum tube and we machine it to the dimensions we want. The center MAF housing has all the correct dimensions, but it still needs an airflow straightener and a MAF flange. Finally, on the right is the finished product, but with the airflow straightener our of the housing so everyone can see it.

http://www.mustangmods.com/ims/u/535/644/150087.jpg

And here is a shot of our airflow straightener compared to the stock one. They're similar, but no the same! We had to tweak their design to get it to work properly with our MAF housing.

And we don't do all this extra work because we think its fun, we do it because not paying attention to these details could cause problems later down the road when you continue adding aftermarket parts to the car. Stretch is right on with his arguments.


Jordan

[Speedy3]

Thanks for explaining the process to everyone stretch. I think people are assuming that our MAF housing is 2.75" like the Mazdaspeed piece, but it is not. ...

... And we don't do all this extra work because we think its fun, we do it because not paying attention to these details could cause problems later down the road when you continue adding aftermarket parts to the car. Stretch is right on with his arguments.


Jordan

Very nice design!

[www.cp-e.com]

Very nice design!


Thanks Speedy!! (bow)


Jordan

[C'ville]

Amendment # I "Freedom of speech" (rockon)


stretch does not even own a speed3 he has not seen a MS CAI in person or a CPE it is a shame that someone speeds so much time bashing a product the know nothing about.

[RonTonkinMazda]

nobody is saying your intake is not good infact i think its a great intake but it seems people are trying hard to discredit the MS Product trust me there is room for more than 1 company to provide intakes.

[MSAxela]

Very nice. I plan on going with mostly cp-e parts they are very good and have been tested throughly. I have a Cp-e CAI ordered currently and plan on getting the turbo back system too in due time. Jordan and everyone at Cp-e keep up the good work. (2thumbs)

[SwampAss]

Amendment # I "Freedom of speech" (rockon)



That only applies the goverment suppressing our right to speak freely. Doesn't apply to "we the people" in the same sense. (lick)


I wish I had video taped my installation of the Mazdaspeed CAI. I would have surely won America's funniest home videos $100,000 prize. Think Keystone cops meets 3 stooges. I spent more time trying to "fish" for shit I dropped in the engine bay. Luckily, most of the items were non metallic so my magnet was rendered useless.

Seat of the pants dyno feels like a significant power increase. To me, it feels like a power increase in line with having my VW 1.8T chipped vs. unchipped.
I don't doubt the validity of some of the comments made in recent posts. For the time being, I will enjoy my CAI as it will likely be my only performance mod. If problems arise, I'll address them. As for now, I plan to have fun with my new found performance.

p.s. THanks CPE for showing your dedication to making a quality product. It's a shame Mazda didn't use your design to head off possible future issues.

Either way, I am pleased with my purchase. It was $400 less than my GIAC VW chip and feels every bit as significant.

[C'ville]

Yea yea, yada yada J/K, I'm just saying that I like people who question authority…. wait is that what I’m trying to say….Nevermind ...you keep it coming Stretch.(thumb)

Oh and swamp let me know if you decide to get rid of those rims..

[MSAxela]

Grats on the CAI SwampAss hope you do enjoy it. Not matter what product you go with enjoy it and what it can do for your car. If problems arise let others know so we can all be aware of possible issues. Have fun these cars are all about that. (drive2)

[SwampAss]

I'm not ready to lose my ass for a while with those wheels. :)

[C'ville]

I hear you brother...Just dont hate me if I end up with the same ones..(cabpatch)


I'm not ready to lose my ass for a while with those wheels. :)

[SwampAss]

Oh, and my car power wheelies in 2nd now. I had a tough time finding the balance point, but I rode it out to about 100.

[flyrevs]

Just sharing info here, not passing any judgements on anything so no flames - ok?
OK I used the ratio method to figure out the CP_E CAI tube diameter @ MAF.
Some please measure their CP-E and I'll update!!!!
here's the math for the CP-E CAI (ratio) 179/3" = 149/X X=2.50" Looks like the CP-E is about 1/4 wall thickness so this pretty much agrees with my visual calipers.
So to recap...
Mazda stock diameter @ MAF : 2.68"
Mazda CAI diameter @ MAF : 2.64" - (0.04" Smaller than stock)
CP-E CAI diameter @ MAF 2.50" - (0.18" Smaller than stock)

[Antoine]

Interesting info....Attn Moderators...Make sure this thread stays on topic and remove any useless posts. Thanks.

[javanc]

Antoine, but then well be down to a 3 post thread, and all the fun will be gone LOL.

[camrycev6]

I have my Dyno results:

I will be getting the file via email tomorrow, so I can post more data then. For now, here are the raw numbers:

Max Power = 257.4
Max Torque = 271.9

@ 4.65 RPMS, A/F = 11.3

[Speedy3]

Speedy, I think the your "scanner dyno" results and these real-life dyno results are confirming something: that the ECU doesn't know what it's doing anymore. The reported gains from users are anywhere between 10hp and 35hp!

I'd estimate the gains from relieving the pressure drop in the intake path should amount to 15-20hp; anything more or less is likely coming from the air/fuel ratio changing. Either it'll lean it out (see above post) and you'll make more power than expected, or the car will get confused and make too large of a correction- and perhaps even pull timing- resulting in lower-than-expected gains. See, when you have the MAF after a bend, the correction needed at an RPM and load will not be the same as the same RPM but a different load. The ECU can't deal with this, but it tries, and these "tries" may be why power gains are so inconsistent.

Hey stretch, sorry, I have been on another thread through all this. I did respond to Dread with my A/F ratio data. The following is on another thread:

http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123662057&page=9
"http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123662057&page=9"

It turns out to be fairlly difficult to determine the A/F ratio from the SW, but I was able to get some useful data, then derive the commanded A/F ratio.

First off, the numbers indicate that the First O2 sensor is measuring the A/F to be about 8% leaner than stock with the MS CAI. The good news is that the ECU is commanding a decrease in the A/F ratio (Richer) by about 6% to compensate. The Commanded A/F ratio under peak load in stock config was about 12.2. The Commanded A/F ratio under full load with the MS CAI was about 11.5. This is the commanded A/F ratio based on compensation learned from feedback while previously driving, so it seems, it is compensating for the MS CAI. I also noticed during the dyno tests that almost the same density of black smoke was coming out of the exhaust in stock vs with MS CAI. So, despite the difference in diameter of the MAF housing (as posted by flyrevs and cp-e) and the increase in air-flow from stock to MS CAI, it seems the MS 3 ECU is adjusting the A/F ratio to keep the car from running too lean. Initial results look like it is about 2% leaner.

Here's some OBDII data on the "Commanded A/F Ratio" with the MS CAI. From my calculations, the car is actually running 2% leaner than this.

[C'ville]

So this means what?