MS6 AWD System

[jtom]

Does the MS6 AWD system allow the driver to configure the amount of power to the back wheels? Or does it do it automatically? I would rather have the option of being able to decide if I want 100/0, 95/5, 50/50.

Thanks

[ottawaP5]

It's automatic.

[jtom]

Other then trucks/suv's, do any cars with AWD come with the ability to configure how much power is sent to the rear wheels? How about the wrx, sti, evo, legacy gt?

Thanks

[wwpms6]

on the sti, i'm not sure if it does it stock, but i'm pretty sure with aftermarket engine managment it does. not 100% though

[jtom]

For the MS6 does it just sense snow/ice on the ground and put power to all wheels? How good is this system? For instance, would I be driving around for a while in the snow before the awd kicks in?

Thanks

[ottawaP5]

For the MS6 does it just sense snow/ice on the ground and put power to all wheels? How good is this system? For instance, would I be driving around for a while in the snow before the awd kicks in?

Thanks

It's instant. As soon as it detects real slippage it goes 50/50. It has nothing to do with whether there is snow on the ground or not, it detects slippage and activates the AWD. It's amazing in snow, trust me :)

[Killer]

AWD with FWD bias. Automatically controlled.

[Gandalf]

Other then trucks/suv's, do any cars with AWD come with the ability to configure how much power is sent to the rear wheels? How about the wrx, sti, evo, legacy gt?

Thanks

STi does.

[jdub260]

Listen to this podcast from Mazda's website (http://www.mazdausa.com/MusaWeb/downloads/MS6/podcast_Mazdaspeed6.mp3). It explains a little more about the car.

[jtom]

STi does.


So the sti has a knob or something that you can dictate how much power goes to the rear?

So the sti does but the other subaru models dont?

Thanks

[jdub260]

So the sti has a knob or something that you can dictate how much power goes to the rear?

So the sti does but the other subaru models dont?

Thanks
The STI has a rocker switch on the center console to switch between manual and auto. Next to the switch there is a roller switch, similar to a dimmer switch, that allows you to make manual adjustments. This is how the '06 is set up I don't know about the older models.

As far as the rest I don't know. Check their website.

[psi365]

All Sti's have that ability. It's the only Subaru model that has that though. On Sti's its called DCCD (driver controlled center differential). Wrx's, Evo's, LGT's, etc don't have this ability. In all reality its kind of a pointless feature. All subie dealers will tell you to keep in in auto mode most the time. Audi (TT and A3 3.2L), Volvo (S60R) and a few other use the same awd system as the MS6 and it works well in snow given you have a good set of all season or snow tires on your car.

[Hate]

For the MS6 does it just sense snow/ice on the ground and put power to all wheels? How good is this system? For instance, would I be driving around for a while in the snow before the awd kicks in?

Thanks

Good enough that you don't even notice when it kicks in, unless you aren't driving normal and looking for it. For example, I want to feel it, so going around a turn, I pushed in the clutch and let my rear end fish a little, then engaged it and I could feel the car correct everything on it's own.

As far as what the ratios are, honestly, I don't know what to believe about the split, because that podcast says one thing, then the manual says another and both are from Mazda.

[DSMConvert]

AWD with FWD bias. Automatically controlled.

...but only in a straight line....once you turn the wheels you can only get a max of 10% to the rear wheels....which kind of defeats the whole purpose of having awd...

[Gandalf]

...but only in a straight line....once you turn the wheels you can only get a max of 10% to the rear wheels....which kind of defeats the whole purpose of having awd...

I've seen you post this multiple multiple times, yet The last time I asked you for an explanation you did not give one. You mentioned a VC (what is that?). What does turning have to do with the drivetrain not being able to supply the rear wheels with only 10%? And at what steering angle? SO if I turn the wheel left 3 degrees I now get 10% rwd? 20 degrees? That really makes no sense what so ever. The rear wheels have their own independent diff. It couldn't care less what the front wheels are doing, if it sees an inside loaded rear wheel (like in a turn) its going to do it's thing. There would be no point in even having such a beefy rear diff if the car only gave the rear wheels 20whp in a turn, now would there? I have yet to even push the car, but I have certainly felt the rear hook-up in a turn in a way my old FWD never did - certainly more the 20whp.

[Speed6 Guy]

I've seen you post this multiple multiple times, yet The last time I asked you for an explanation you did not give one. You mentioned a VC (what is that?). What does turning have to do with the drivetrain not being able to supply the rear wheels with only 10%? And at what steering angle? SO if I turn the wheel left 3 degrees I now get 10% rwd? 20 degrees? That really makes no sense what so ever. The rear wheels have their own independent diff. It couldn't care less what the front wheels are doing, if it sees an inside loaded rear wheel (like in a turn) its going to do it's thing. There would be no point in even having such a beefy rear diff if the car only gave the rear wheels 20whp in a turn, now would there? I have yet to even push the car, but I have certainly felt the rear hook-up in a turn in a way my old FWD never did - certainly more the 20whp.

I also find this hard to believe. The rear wheels get a lot of power on my car. There have been several occasions where I have gotten the back end of my car kicked out and the power just kept on coming (in a good way). I think you my need to show some proof or I my just put the bs flag up on some of you claims

[RevLimitLaunch]

I also find this hard to believe. The rear wheels get a lot of power on my car. There have been several occasions where I have gotten the back end of my car kicked out and the power just kept on coming (in a good way). I think you my need to show some proof or I my just put the bs flag up on some of you claims

today i went out and beat the piss out of my car just to see what the commotion was about. i was able to pretty much get the car loose somewhat easily in 2nd around most corners no problem. and i absolutely extremely doubt 10% power could do that.

[DSMConvert]

http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123632246&highlight=awd

goto post#5....

VC = Viscous Coupling...

Please don't call me out without researching the topic for yourselves...

Being as that this is the 12th thread that has come up on this topic, perhaps it is time to make a sticky so that this debate can be answered once and for all. Mods if you'd like I'd be more than happy to get with crossbow(whom originally brought to light most of the info I've found) and make a very detailed thread on the mazda awd system.

[Killer]

If it comes from crossbow you can bet it's good info. No need to sticky.

[DSMConvert]

well I just meant get a single post with all the facts put together and stickied, that way when someone comes to post up a topic about it they'll see it at the top, and hopefully read it before asking again...right now it seems all the info is spread all over the place with may of the thread being buried 10pages back...

[DSMConvert]

and before anyone even thinks of saying this is a Haldex system(which is where most people make quotes that it can deliver 50/50 in corners) read the following link...post #20...directly out of Haldex Inc. tech support. You'll need to insert the forum name (cough...m.a.z.d.a.6.c.l.u.b.com...cough)

http://forum.***************/index.php?showtopic=54297&hl=haldex&st=15

The below link was put together by crossbow for general information about the ms6 awd system(Toyoda)...

[Speed6 Guy]

DSMConvert You should know by now that we don’t allow links to other forums here so I had to edit your last post.

Moreover I do think that Crossbow has a lot of good points. I may have been a little quick to say BS anything. My apology but when I drive my car it does not handle like there is only 10% power to the rear wheels. So what I am saying is maybe there is more going one (or less going on) then you may think. I would just like to see the testing that you have obviously done so extensively put on the forum. I can understand that there are a lot of misconceptions with the Mazdaspeed6 (like the Halidex thing) that are going around I just don’t want there to be any more of them so show the facts about the AWD system and then I will understand where you are coming from.



Also stop asking for your threads to be stickied.

[ottawaP5]

DSMConvert You should know by now that we don’t allow links to other forums here so I had to edit your last post.

Moreover I do think that Crossbow has a lot of good points. I may have been a little quick to say BS anything. My apology but when I drive my car it does not handle like there is only 10% power to the rear wheels. So what I am saying is maybe there is more going one (or less going on) then you may think. I would just like to see the testing that you have obviously done so extensively put on the forum. I can understand that there are a lot of misconceptions with the Mazdaspeed6 (like the Halidex thing) that are going around I just don’t want there to be any more of them so show the facts about the AWD system and then I will understand where you are coming from.


Also stop asking for your threads to be stickied.

I have to agree with you on this...when you take this car around a corner quickly it feels as though there is a lot more than 10% at the rear wheels.

[DSMConvert]

hmm...yea i knew I wasn't supposed to post links...I just didn't see another way to get the info over here without directly copying and pasting it. It's crossbows thread so I would prefer to get his permission before stealing it for another forum...

Hehe I didn't ask for this thread to be stickied...I just offered to invest the time into an awd fact thread if it would be stickied... Just seems pointless though to invest all the time into a thread only to have it fall to the 2nd page by the end of hte week, and have the question asked 4 more times...

There really isn't any testing I can do that hasn't already been done. My information comes directly from engineers who designed the setup.. Its like asking someone to provide proof that when you jump off a roof you fall towards the ground...its just basic mechanics...the proof is in the diagrams... In this case there is no vc or center diff so it would be impossible for a single output drive train to transfer power at 2 different speeds...in a vc/center diff system they can do this through the slippage that takes place in the viscous coupling..thus it can spin the front wheels at 350 rpms while spinning the rear wheels at 250 rpms(note the numbers are solely for example). In a true awd system the output from the engine first goes into a xfercase(which most of the time contains a vc). the xfercase breaks this single input into 2 separate outputs, thus allowing each axle to turn at its own speed... In our system we have a single output the merely engages and disengages itself to the rear...think of it like a spinning tire...if you grab the tire what happens? If you get a firm grip you begin spinning at the same rate as the tire. If you don't your hands slip and you burn them up... same way with the electronic clutch packs on the ms6, it either gets a firm grip and turns at the same speed as the front, or it slips(if this DID happen it woudl burn up the clutch back in a heartbeat, which is why it cant make the rear wheels spin at a different rate). A VC's sole job is to allow that slipping without burning up, which it accomplishes with fluidic friction, much like a torque converter.
On the apology note I apologize myself if I came off gruff...I just get tired of being called out all the time, when I end up being correct. I try very hard to not make posts without having my facts straight and/or doing my own research, and most people either A. know my reputation for posting information or B. At the very least give me the benefit of the doubt and do their research before saying im full of it...

Anyways I'll get ahold of crossbow and get his permission to post the awd diagram out of the mazda service manual...I think it will help alot to see a picture of how things are connected...

[TheDutchGun]

From what my buddy tells me(he has an MS6), is it not basically fwd with a little help available from the rear wheels when necessary?

[Klip]

Not exactly sure about this +1 or +5 stuff but here it goes:\

+10 to DSM for trying, I hear yah.(inout)

[wannabe]

if there is only 10% going to the rear wheels then how am i able to spin the car so easily on the stock tires in the snow? if i pull out onto snow, cut the wheel and gun it, the backend just spins right around. theres a video i saw on youtube of a dude doing donuts in it...thats not possible in a 90% fwd vehicle....at least not by the laws of physics...

[Karma_hunden]

Im too lazy to comment on all this but i'll say this...about 2 weeks ago i rotated my tires and the rear tires where more worn out that the ones infront...you do the math.

[jtom]

Wow thanks for all the replies. I knew the ms6 would have front bias.

[DSMConvert]

well I can't explain that karman...all I know is what the engineers and diagrams say..BUT another way you can tell is to go out to a wet parking lot and see if you can do an axis spin...if the power to the rear is over 40% you will be able to do a perfect axis spin. Axis spin - where the center of the car stays fixed and both ends rotate around it..

[Gandalf]

hmm...yea i knew I wasn't supposed to post links...I just didn't see another way to get the info over here without directly copying and pasting it. It's crossbows thread so I would prefer to get his permission before stealing it for another forum...

Hehe I didn't ask for this thread to be stickied...I just offered to invest the time into an awd fact thread if it would be stickied... Just seems pointless though to invest all the time into a thread only to have it fall to the 2nd page by the end of hte week, and have the question asked 4 more times...

There really isn't any testing I can do that hasn't already been done. My information comes directly from engineers who designed the setup.. Its like asking someone to provide proof that when you jump off a roof you fall towards the ground...its just basic mechanics...the proof is in the diagrams... In this case there is no vc or center diff so it would be impossible for a single output drive train to transfer power at 2 different speeds...in a vc/center diff system they can do this through the slippage that takes place in the viscous coupling..thus it can spin the front wheels at 350 rpms while spinning the rear wheels at 250 rpms(note the numbers are solely for example). In a true awd system the output from the engine first goes into a xfercase(which most of the time contains a vc). the xfercase breaks this single input into 2 separate outputs, thus allowing each axle to turn at its own speed... In our system we have a single output the merely engages and disengages itself to the rear...think of it like a spinning tire...if you grab the tire what happens? If you get a firm grip you begin spinning at the same rate as the tire. If you don't your hands slip and you burn them up... same way with the electronic clutch packs on the ms6, it either gets a firm grip and turns at the same speed as the front, or it slips(if this DID happen it woudl burn up the clutch back in a heartbeat, which is why it cant make the rear wheels spin at a different rate). A VC's sole job is to allow that slipping without burning up, which it accomplishes with fluidic friction, much like a torque converter.
On the apology note I apologize myself if I came off gruff...I just get tired of being called out all the time, when I end up being correct. I try very hard to not make posts without having my facts straight and/or doing my own research, and most people either A. know my reputation for posting information or B. At the very least give me the benefit of the doubt and do their research before saying im full of it...

Anyways I'll get ahold of crossbow and get his permission to post the awd diagram out of the mazda service manual...I think it will help alot to see a picture of how things are connected...

First off I only asked you to prove your point - you don't need to get all offended.

Second you still have not done it. I don't know who crossbow is, or why he is the end all for info - but the post you linked and told us to read as gospel isn't even correct. It's already been proven that the car IS NOT 100/0 until slippage occurs. The Mazda promo vid with goes into the fact the car is always to some extent AWD, even if its only 85/15 when just going forward at speed. The only time its 100/0 is creeping along at 5mph. So I basically read a post that starts with incorrect info, why would I keep reading? (although I did)

Next - you say you talked to the engineers who built the system? What languages do you speak? Cause they certainly aren't here in the US. If you know them so well then why did we have to get Haldex's word that they did not build this AWD system? Couldn't you have told us this? I hate name dropping. Also you say the center clutch can't cause the wheels to rotate at different rpms. . .it's a PWM (pulse-width modulation) singal input going into a rear diff, a beefed up version of the RX8 diff. Whats the point of a beefy rear diff if I only ever get 10% of my hp in a turn? Even Mazda is not stupid enough to spend the $$$ on such a complex rear diff in a car that will never use it - if that was the case we would not have even gotten a rear diff - there is no point (even in a drag launch it will barely help). They could have saved a ton on production costs here (and they would have).

Also, you are being too generic. You can't simple state "in a turn" you only get 10% rwhp. What steering angle? So when I change lanes I'm really basically FWD? If its a full lock turn then yes, I could see it limiting the rear to some extent - but I would bet its based on speed and steering angle. Cause I have certainly taken a fun U-turn and gotten the backend around. If you know these engineers so well get s some schematics and AWD control module info that goes into steering angle/yaw/wheel speed sensor and how they calculate the amount of rwd bias. THAT would be useful.

[Speed6 Guy]

+1 But lets not get too out of hand.

[Gandalf]

Also - if anyone has the autoenginutiy scan tool with the optional Mazda CAN add-on they website says it can read things like PWM AWD rating, all 4 wheel speed sensors, and a few other very key sensor reading that would be actual proff of what is going on. I will have this tool in a month or so (tax return) and will be happy to try and capture some real world data to either prove/disprove our current discussion. But if someone already has it perhaps they could help us?

[jred321]

All Sti's have that ability. It's the only Subaru model that has that though. On Sti's its called DCCD (driver controlled center differential).
that's not the function of the DCCD. the diff in the sti is either 35/65 split or 49/51 depending on year. the DCCD controls how it locks up when slippage is detected, just like the ACD on the evo but it uses more sensors to make it slightly more complicated. the settings do not change torque distribution though

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=932701&highlight=sti+dccd+torque+bias

[DSMConvert]

Gandalf tried to post the schematics...forum rules prevent me from linking to other websites....BUT if you bother to research the subject before posting wrong information about it you'd stumble upon another forum where you would see at 7 pages of the awd schematics, including all sensor layouts, hardparts, and control situations.

You don't know crossbow..and your point? If you knew as much about the ms6 platform as you thought you did then you surely would of come across crossbow on one of several forums. His contributions in regards to technical knowledge are astounding and well known among true tuners.

I speak german, of the 30 employees working for me, 3 speak fluent german, 2 speak italian, and half speak spanish. Want me to get all their signatures notarized that they speak those languages? b/c gee I wouldnt want to say something without having iron clad proof that you demand. I could also scan my german consolate passport for ya?

I love how quick you are to dismiss my claims and post your own without bothering to back yours up, yet you attack me? Wheres your proof. Oh wait thats right you jumped on the bandwagon. and its what you heard. Go get an engineering degree, become certified in all 9 areas of ASE, start a performance company then come talk to me about awd systems and how they work.

Not sure what you meant by your whole Haldex comment??? Several people called to ask them and they told everyone one of us that they did not build the ms6 awd system? This was the first step in finding the information, once haldex was determined not to have made the sytem it eventually led to Toyoda...I'm confused you yell at me for asking haldex to get solid proof, but when i lack it you attack me also????

My contact at Toyoda Machine Works, Inc - Junjii Ando's group(which speaks perfect english by the way. Never claimed I was buddy buddy with them, but I do have the understanding and knowledge to have a technical discussion with the engineers and be able to intrepret what they are saying. By the way do a search on this guys name and you'll see he's authored SEVERAL papers on awd systems developement.

So lets see I've given information on detailed schematics, direct contacts at Toyoda, as well as links to others input on the subject. I got all my ducks in a row.

YOUR TURN. I'm gonna go make some popcorn so take your time, but I'm not going to post anymore on this. Either people will choose to beleive what everyone says, or they'll take a look at information for themselves and draw their own conclusions. This is EXACTLY how this stupid haldex rumor got started...a bunch of idiots posted up what they thought was correct, b/c they read it in a magazine and bam...took over 6 months and a half dozen threads for the damage to be fixed.

Ok I'm posting this diagram...its the only way to solve this argument without it getting any uglier. Gandalf read the very last document entitled AWD operation...paying attention to the straight line condition and the tight turn condition. Notice it says it reduces the power to the rear wheels to prevent bindign...so if we deduct that the max is 50/50 and you reduce that 50 to the rear wheels...well do the math means you aren't getting anywhere near 50% to the rear...

To keep from getting banned I've removed part of the link name. ("mfg, the number 6 and what type of card you have to have to race a nasa event all as one word).

http://forum.*********.com/about4221.html

[Gandalf]

I am not going to quote since the posts are getting long. I have read that diagram - and have yet to find the number 10% anywhere on it. You will also notice the title of the paragraph you are quoting says "Tight Cornering Control" - and it says it is based on wheel speed sensors and steering angle sensors. What it does not state, as you do very matter of factly, is that anytime you turn it limits rear bias to 10%.

Even your above post - which is basically a long page telling me I don't know what I am talking about, yet giving no facts - doesn't prove anything. There are a lot of sensors involved in this AWD system. It seems to me that such a knolwedgeable tuner as yourself would have the means to log these sensors. So give us some logs. Show me a graph of steering angle vs. wheelspeed vs. rear bias. Simple right?

I don't want papers or numbers or "well so and so told me" about just ANY AWD system. I want them for THIS CAR. Why is that hard to understand? You get very angry when someone questions your unfailable knowledge of cars - we don't know you from Adam, so why would I take anyone's word on an internet forum as the absolute truth when they have no numbers to back up their claims? I understand the concept of wheel speed and binding and yes I realize the limitations of a part-time AWD system, so I know we don't get all 4 wheels at max pull in a corner - but where do you get your 10% number?

[jdub260]

+1 But lets not get too out of hand.

I remind everybody please let's keep this a civil conversation. I'm sure that we all want the truth here, but character attacks are not gonna get us there.

Why don't we let it simmer and wait for Gandalf, or anybody else that has one, to get his autoenginutiy scan tool and see what kind of numbers he/they get out it. This way there is documented proof and everybody wins.

Remember we all want the best for the MS6 community. Don't we??

[Gandalf]

I already know I am partially wrong. And DSM's points are well founded. I simply want him to give us some numbers and stop acting like everyone should just believe him cause he knows everything - its annoying. He is also spouting a 10% number that has no basis except from some other post (that also has no real world numbers) yet then goes right around to tell us to stop jumping on the bandwagon of "something we heard" - which is exactly where he is getting his 10% number.

A better picture to link would be the rear LSD diagram that states right away the rear LSD is there for improved straight-ahead performance. No mention of cornering - which I doubt is an unintentional omission.

[DSMConvert]

Edited out the first paragraph of this response, since I submitted it after 2 additional posts were made, to remain civil as requested by the mods. Gandalf I apologize for the above attacks to yoru character.

But I will clarify my 10% claim, since I do need to be a little more specific...the amount of reduction to the rear output is a function on the turn angle/yaw/pitch sensors. So on long sweepers you'll have little to know reductions...but in tighter corners say for instance an auto-x event or emergency maneuver, that reduction will be significant. When I did the "math" and looked at the diagrams I came up with what I thought was a good guestimate of the amount of power able to be transferred(originally my number was more around 20%). Afterwards I conferred with other members as well as engineers in the field of driveline mechanics and came to the generalized 10%, though I will admit it shouldn't be taken as an exact number, but more of a ballpark.My apologies if I misconstrued my words, but I consider a turn something over 60 degrees of center, which is where you would begin to see a significant power reduction. If you do the equations regarding fluid mechanics( to determine temps b/c if you notice the awd system completely shuts off power when a certain temp is reached) you'll notice that as the temp rises you need to decrease the length and increase the freq of the pulses from the electric clutch. Which in turn reduces the amount of power that can be transferred between the 2 sections...

For example lets say that durning straight line driving where the wheel speeds can match for the majority of the time the clutch pulses 100 times for 2 seconds per pulse(time of actual engagement). Now if you try to do this in a hard 90 degree corner you're rear wheels will want to turn at a different rate from your front ones. Now obviously something as go to give to prevent driveline binding...in this case the clutch does the giving. well if we keep the same pulse freq/width we are no doubt going to build up significant heat from the force of the 2 shafts attempting to spin at different rates. so to combat this the clutch speeds up the freq and decreases the width(the amt of time the 2 pieces are actually connected) which in turn means the 2 shafts are connected less on each pass. Meaning less power transfer.

Lets make an example. Go find a giant tractor tire and do the following. On the first move I want you to push it as hard as you can 100 times, but only actually touching the tire for 2 seconds each time. Now on the second move I want you to push 250 times but only touch the tire for .5 seconds. Let me know which one moves the tire further......

And not to be rude, but I dont have the time to prove myself to every new member who questions my answers simply b/c they dont know me. People either A. Trust that I am providing accurate information as I have done in the past knowing that my reputation speaks for itself, or B. go out and do the research/testing for themselves and find out I was right to start with. Im sure that the members that do know me, will attest that I rarely make statements without having looked into first-hand. To get the requested info you want, simply to show you that I'm right, would require numerous hours of time that I don't have right now. I wish I had the free time to throw up graphs and logs, as I love sharing information I've found with others.

[Hate]

if there is only 10% going to the rear wheels then how am i able to spin the car so easily on the stock tires in the snow? if i pull out onto snow, cut the wheel and gun it, the backend just spins right around. theres a video i saw on youtube of a dude doing donuts in it...thats not possible in a 90% fwd vehicle....at least not by the laws of physics...

Because the stock tires are summer only tires and not meant to be driven in snow AT ALL?

[Killer]

uh boy.

[wannabe]

Because the stock tires are summer only tires and not meant to be driven in snow AT ALL?

granted. however, the car behaved as a rwd car does in the snow, not a fwd. tapping the gas caused oversteer, in fwd you get understeer.

[Hate]

granted. however, the car behaved as a rwd car does in the snow, not a fwd. tapping the gas caused oversteer, in fwd you get understeer.

Well that I can't explain. I did slide sideways into a ditch in the snow on summers in my is300 while sitting at a stop sign with my foot on the brakes and never touching the gas, and can't explain that one either.

Looking at your pic in your sig, did so much snow get caked in your wheel wells that it rubbed against your tires too? I had to clear it out everytimes I stopped my car...

[psi365]

I could swear I read somewhere that they said the awd system is a Haldex which is were I got that from. Just to be clear I am not calling it that now. I looked over the sales brouchure again and it calls it an Active Torque distribution with a limited slip rear diff. In the brouchure they state that the awd system can go from 100/0 to 50/50 split.

[DSMConvert]

Yea the Haldex rumor I think got started b/c of the ford fusion...which is reported to use the haldex system. The ms6 version is manufactured by Toyoda.

[DSMConvert]

forgot to post this the other day...for those interested this is a list of cars that utilize the Haldex system(page 11)..hehe notice no ms6 listing..

http://www.odette.se/files/Jan%20Erik%20Dantoft.pdf

On another note I talked to a few Audi enthusiasts and from what they told me the Haldex system came on the higher end audis, while the "lower-grade" toyoda system was found on the base and entry audi cars...namely any audi with the engine pointing north and south had haldex, while East and West engines got toyoda...which apparently plays a role in the haldex being able to be a rwd setup while the toyoda defaults to fwd... please note I have not confirmed this info, though the people I talked to come from professional racing backgrounds ranging from mechanics to pit crew, to drivers.

[Gandalf]

It makes sense that for a RWD biased car you would want a longitudinal engine layout, such as all RWD cars have. Makes the transmission layout and driveshaft arrangement much easier. I dont think anyone is going to argue with you that our setup is FWD biased.

[psi365]

forgot to post this the other day...for those interested this is a list of cars that utilize the Haldex system(page 11)..hehe notice no ms6 listing..

http://www.odette.se/files/Jan%20Erik%20Dantoft.pdf

On another note I talked to a few Audi enthusiasts and from what they told me the Haldex system came on the higher end audis, while the "lower-grade" toyoda system was found on the base and entry audi cars...namely any audi with the engine pointing north and south had haldex, while East and West engines got toyoda...which apparently plays a role in the haldex being able to be a rwd setup while the toyoda defaults to fwd... please note I have not confirmed this info, though the people I talked to come from professional racing backgrounds ranging from mechanics to pit crew, to drivers.

Completely incorrect. Being an Audi Master Guild tech I can tell you Audi uses either a Haldex or a torson differential. So far only the TT quattro, and A3 quattro use Haldex (transverly mounted engines). All other Audi's use a torson differential to make them awd.S4's, RS4's, S6's, and S8's even have a 40/'60 split (frt/rear).

So which system is actually used on the MS6? Viscous coupling, torson differentail? How do they control the power biasd? If its controled from the rear differentail, then it is like a Haldex system. If it is controlled at the transfer case then it would be more like an Evo or Sti.

[Gandalf]

Completely incorrect. Being an Audi Master Guild tech I can tell you Audi uses either a Haldex or a torson differential. So far only the TT quattro, and A3 quattro use Haldex (transverly mounted engines). All other Audi's use a torson differential to make them awd.S4's, RS4's, S6's, and S8's even have a 40/'60 split (frt/rear).

So which system is actually used on the MS6? Viscous coupling, torson differentail? How do they control the power biasd? If its controled from the rear differentail, then it is like a Haldex system. If it is controlled at the transfer case then it would be more like an Evo or Sti.

Electromagnetic clutch - no diff.

[SilversunMSP]

I can't believe this post is still going. March 2005 issue of Sport Compact Car states that the AWD system found in the MS6 was co-produced by Mazda and a company called LUK.

[psi365]

Electromagnetic clutch - no diff.

Is that in the rear differentail housing or in the transfer case?

[DSMConvert]

um psi how am I completely incorrect? you just said yourself that some audi's use the haldex system??? I think what you meant is that I was incorrect on the other means of awd system utilized by the audi lineup. And thank you for clearing that up, like I said I was only going on "shop talk". At any rate please take a minute to read the other 4 pages of this thread and all your questions will be answered. If you're going to jump into a discussion atleast have the courtesy to read ALL the discussion before asking a ton of questions that have already been answered.

Also if you're a master tech then you'd know xfercases cannot have electromagnetic clutches....

[psi365]

um psi how am I completely incorrect? you just said yourself that some audi's use the haldex system??? I think what you meant is that I was incorrect on the other means of awd system utilized by the audi lineup. And thank you for clearing that up, like I said I was only going on "shop talk". At any rate please take a minute to read the other 4 pages of this thread and all your questions will be answered. If you're going to jump into a discussion atleast have the courtesy to read ALL the discussion before asking a ton of questions that have already been answered.

Also if you're a master tech then you'd know xfercases cannot have electromagnetic clutches....

You were incorrect due to saying that the high end Audi's and the Audi's that have the engines mounted longitudinally use a Haldex system. Only two lines in the US uses haldex and they are the lower line cars (A3, TT). Also only transversly mounted powertrained cars use Haldex (TT,A3). All other Audi's use a torson differential for the awd system (A4,A6,A8,Q7, S cars, RS cars). Their engines are mounted longitudinallly.

As to your second point, I was trying to get to a point that others in here keep saying that the MS6 system isn't a Haldex system. The fact that a Haldex unit is mounted in the rear differential housing (even though it has the awd system in the rear diff, it still needs to have a rear diff to change the rotation of the drive shaft (from trans to diff) to the rear axles (diff to wheels)). Working on two different models that have this system, the way you describe the awd system on the MS6 is exactly the way that a Haldex system is set up. It may not say Haldex on it, but I am positive that who evers system it is had to pay royalties to Haldex. Haldex works by applying pressure to a clutch pack in the rear diff housing that engages or disengages the rear diff assembly............sound fimiliar?

[automaton]

well I can't explain that karman...all I know is what the engineers and diagrams say..BUT another way you can tell is to go out to a wet parking lot and see if you can do an axis spin...if the power to the rear is over 40% you will be able to do a perfect axis spin. Axis spin - where the center of the car stays fixed and both ends rotate around it..

I know this is a little late in the discussion to comment on this post, but...

I was able to do an axis spin in the MS6. It was icy and snowy and I had the summer tires on. I turned into the donut and cut it tighter and tighter til the car was spinning on it's axis. I've never been able to do this in my Galant VR-4, and when I had my WRX I could never do it in that.

I had the wheel cranked to one side the whole time. I'm sure someone will find a way to explain it away, but by your definition, that would mean more than %10 goes to the rear wheels while the wheel is turned.

My personal observation is that much more than %10 goes to the rear wheels at all times, just by the ease with which I can step the rear-end out. Take it for what it's worth.

[Newf]

bla bla bla bla bla. The car is awesome in the winter, and if there is one person here that would know it, it is me. Heck, I still have 7' snow banks in my front yard, damn winter. And, i can get the rear to come around in my car WHENEVER I want,do donuts when I want, and I have good winter tires on. I simply do not believe the 10% nonsense unless it is when the wheel is fully locked to one side, in which case it might make sense.
The one thing all of you need to realize, is that when it comes to the Mazdaspeed line up, very very FEW people actually know the real technical details of it all and actually understand it. I've seen this first hand when dealing with the engineers and designers of the mp3/msp when we were going to sue them. Don't believe everything you read, don't believe the first engineer you listen to, drive the car and enjoy it.

[Speed6 Guy]

Well put.

[Gandalf]

My Autoenginuity tool should be here this week, hopefully the next autocross I can get a plot of all 4 wheels speeds, steering angle, and PCM output and see if we can get some empirical data into this discussion.

[DSMConvert]

good deal gandalf...so lets just keep this thread clear until then...no use arguing anymore...soon enough we'll have actual data...and from what I've seen this will be the first time actual real on the street data will be posted...

[Speed6 Guy]

Well put also

[Gandalf]

Now I just have to figure out how to convince the auto-x committee that my passenger holding the 10lb laptop is not a safety violation. . .lol.

[DSMConvert]

eh just do it on the street one day...doesn't have to be hard driving we just need different degree turns over 10mph...if you can get the actual bias %(according to the toyoda schematic this is an optional output) and the fluid temp that would be great too! When you do the turns try to do consistent radius turns so we can see the log all the way through the turn at the same steering angle...

Hmm though I am curious to see how the awd system react if you're in a hard corner and a tire comes up from body roll...technically its not a front/rear slip issue, but it would make for odd wheel speeds into the sensors.

[Mutmatt]

go to a parking lot out of the way :), block it off and make sure the owner is ok with it first!

[Gandalf]

Hmm though I am curious to see how the awd system react if you're in a hard corner and a tire comes up from body roll...technically its not a front/rear slip issue, but it would make for odd wheel speeds into the sensors.

I dont think thats possible with our suspension setup.

[Mogley2000]

So I just spent 30 min catching up on this....wheres the hard data at?