Custom Performance Engineering's complete SPEED6 tuning solution

[www.cp-e.com]

MODS: Sponsorhip fee has been paid via paypal 1/24/07 @ 11:56am


Custom Performance Engineering has been anxiously awaiting sponsorship status on Mazdas247 for some time now. We've had a lot of great successes in the past few months and we wanted to share some of our latest developments with the community.

We are currently completing the development of our full tuning solution for the SPEED6. Our unit is a piggyback air/fuel, timing and boost controller with datalogging capabilities. The MSRP for a non-PnP unit is $600, or $635 with two pre-loaded base maps. It should be available for pre-order in the next couple weeks.

We recently wanted to demonstrate the capabilities of our piggyback, so we installed it onto a SPEED6 with a turbo-back exhaust and cold air inatake. We also wanted to see what we could learn about the factory ECU. Here is what we found...



Throttle Position and Boost Pressure

We decided to put the piggyback on Seoulful’s (Brian’s) SPEED6 so we could get a better idea of what the car is doing with timing, the throttle plate, the wastegate, and so on. Brian’s SPEED6 had a turbo-back and an intake installed at the time of testing.

What’s interesting is that the SPEED6’s throttle plate does a similar dance as the SPEED3’s at wide open throttle. The difference is that the SPEED6’s ECU doesn’t create any appreciable performance limitations like the SPEED3’s ECU does. The SPEED3 uses the throttle plate as a power output governor, which was likely implemented to reduce the amount of torque steer and wheel spin in the lower gears. Since the SPEED6 doesn’t have the same traction or torque steer issues, it isn’t clear what the purpose of the throttle plate actuation is during wide-open throttle. Theory dictates that in order get the most out of an engine, the volumetric efficiency should be as high as possible to reduce pumping losses. The fact that the SPEED6 tapers its throttle opening towards redline and reduces boost to some degree goes against convention, and likely has another purpose. The good news however, is that the throttle plate in the SPEED6 doesn’t seem to limit peak boost like it does in the SPEED3. Here is a chart of the boost pressure versus the throttle position at WOT. Take note of the peak voltage of the throttle sensor, and the boost pressure (we dialed it in for 15psi in this case)

http://www.mustangmods.com/ims/u/535/644/136933.jpg

Notice how the throttle plate is NEVER wide open (wide open would indicate about 4.7-volts). Not even close. Also, as the rpm’s begin to climb, so does the throttle position. One may argue that this slow increase in the throttle position is to increase intake air velocity as rpm’s climb, a la the manifold runner control, but notice that the turbo is already at full bore pushing 15psi. At about 5500rpm the fun begins to end and the throttle starts shutting things down.

What’s interesting in this next chart is that we dialed in 19psi of boost to see how the car reacted. Is the turbo capable of holding 19psi to redline? How is the throttle plate going to affect this?

http://www.mustangmods.com/ims/u/535/644/136934.jpg

Again, take notice of the throttle position. You can see how it ramps up quickly between 2300-2700rpm, and then the slope is decreased as soon as peak boost is achieved. This implies that the throttle control is somehow tied to the boost pressure. We also quickly realized that the turbo was not capable of holding 19psi to redline, so we stopped the run short to avoid over spinning the turbo. It isn’t clear from the chart, but the turbo maintained 19psi until about 4000rpm and then started to taper off down to 17psi. We know we ran out of turbo (as opposed to the throttle limiting boost) since the throttle angle is still increasing. Also, notice how the throttle angle is MUCH higher than the angle during the 15psi run in the first chart.

PID Boost Control

Our piggyback differs from some of the other engine management systems in the way it controls boost, or more specifically the wastegate solenoid. The wastegate is controlled by a solenoid which is tied to the ECU. The ECU commands the solenoid to open or close the wastegate depending upon how much boost is requested. Other tuners seem to use a boost coefficient to control boost, which can get tricky. Our boost controller uses a PID (proportional-integral-derivative) feedback loop to monitor and control the boost pressure. This is significant because instead of using some factor with no feedback to control boost, you can demand a certain value, say, 16psi and the feedback loop will control the wastegate solenoid until the map sensor sees 16psi. It really is an incredibly sophisticated system, and I’ll briefly explain how PID control works. Alternatively, you can search Wikipedia for a great explanation as well.

A PID feedback loop uses calculus to control a process without human intervention. In other words, using a setpoint value, the PID control calculates how far some value is from the desired setpoint, and even tries to ‘guess’ at the next value in the process.

The proportion part of the loop calculates the error from the setpoint in percent. For example, if the setpoint is a value of ten, and the current value is 8, then the proportional error is 20%. This helps give the feedback loop some idea of how far off from the setpoint it is.

The integral part of the loop provides an indication of past error. In other words, it finds the integral of the proportional error and sums this error up over time. This also helps indicate if the error is above or below the setpoint value.

Finally, the derivative part of the feedback loop tries to determine where the process is headed. For example, if you look at one of the boost charts above, you can see the slope of the curve is very high to begin with, but once the ECU finds its desired boost setpoint, the slope goes to zero. If the slope is zero, then the boost pressure isn’t climbing. If the slope is negative, then the boost is dropping. By incorporating this into the control loop, the system has some idea of the direction of the process it’s controlling.

A graph of the control loop is shown below. You can see how each aspect of the PID control reacts to Lou setting the boost level to 15psi.

http://www.mustangmods.com/ims/u/535/644/136935.jpg

If the PID control was ideal, then the P portion of the controller would go to zero immediately. This would indicate that there is no error, and you’ve hit your setpoint exactly. The integral term should be a flat line once it reaches the desired setpoint. Any slope to the integral line indicates that error is being generated. Finally, the derivative term indicates the direction of the process. Since we want to keep the boost at a certain value, the PID control loop constantly overshoots and undershoots the desired boost point. This is normal, but the amplitude of the oscillation gives an indication as to how much control the PID feedback loop has over the process. The lower the oscillation, the better the PID control.

The best part of all of this is that you can fine-tune how much weight each term (proportion, integral and derivative) have on the process control by changing the PID coefficients. We provide a PID coefficient to start with, but you can control the PID coefficients if you’d like to get a better control over boost for your particular setup. But how good did the feedback loop control the boost in this particular case?

http://www.mustangmods.com/ims/u/535/644/136940.jpg

This is a chart with the wastegate position versus the boost pressure, and was set for 15psi. You can see that the wastegate is always being tweaked to try to find the setpoint value. Interestingly, the wastegate is never fully opened OR closed! Even at idle, the wastegate is open to some degree. And the wastegate is never fully open to the 255 value because you can create secondary magnetic fields in the solenoid which can inadvertently keep the wastegate open permanently. But, you can see that the boost control is pretty darn good with our recommended PID coefficients.

Hopefully this explains why we didn’t just use a straightforward boost coefficient with no feedback loop to control the boost.

Mass Airflow Sensor

Many people have speculated that the mass air sensor maxing out at 5-volts is responsible for the fuel cut. We wanted to see if we could induce a fuel cut to investigate further and were unable to produce one even at 19psi. Here is a chart with the boost pressure relative to the mass air sensor voltage.

http://www.mustangmods.com/ims/u/535/644/136937.jpg

Keep in mind that peak air/fuel consumption does not occur at peak horsepower or towards redline. The most air will be ingested at the torque peak. So, this chart shows both the incline and decline of the mass air sensor voltage (the voltage decline is more difficult to see on this chart) indicating that peak torque has already been reached. Also worth noting is that the peak sensor voltage occurred at 5267rpm and was 4.29-volts, which is well below the 5-volt maximum. Not surpringly, we did not experience any fuel cut.

Next week we visit the dyno with the wideband and we’ll also get some data on the fuel injector duty cycle to see if we can get some indication as to how much fuel this thing can flow. Lou is also determined to gain control over the throttle plate. Because his piggyback is so versatile, he can incorporate a process that will help the throttle plate mimic the users throttle input better. This is a tricky challenge, but look for throttle control on the SPEED3/6 in the near future.



Since we're now official sponsors, feel free to post up questions or comments, or you can PM us under our www.cp-e.com handle.

Jordan

[CitizenPro]

Awesome to see u jumping in and trying to conquer the mazdaspeed ecu! :D As far as the throttle plate goes.....u could have asked any Mazda tech and they could have told u that the TP is governed. My techs told me the exact percentage that it opens up for the Speed6 and Speed3, but cant remember what it was....its been quite awhile.

Goodluck with everything, and hope u figure it out.

[jcgemt2003]

So when will you have a plugnplay setup and for how much more? Pretty much everyone is waiting for that...no one wants to splice into there ECU. Your price is far better than the XEDE and that makes it far more attractive. If you can get a plug and a map near the 290whp mark I will be more than happy to order when you are ready.

[Rainman]

Great job and wonderful info. It is awesome to see another informative post from a vendor offering a new product for the MS6/3.

Thanks,
R

[www.cp-e.com]

Awesome to see u jumping in and trying to conquer the mazdaspeed ecu! :D As far as the throttle plate goes.....u could have asked any Mazda tech and they could have told u that the TP is governed. My techs told me the exact percentage that it opens up for the Speed6 and Speed3, but cant remember what it was....its been quite awhile.

Goodluck with everything, and hope u figure it out.

Well, this data wasn't recorded solely to prove whether or not the throttle plate moves during wide open throttle. We were looking to validate our piggyback, and show off its datalogging capabilities. We also hadn't seen any posts that illustrated how the throttle plate moves during WOT on the SPEED6, so we thought this would be a good time to verify that. We also wanted to be sure that it didn't "rain on our parade" like the SPEED3 throttle does. The throttle plate on the SPEED3 takes a huge toll on the performance potential of the engine according to our datalogs.


So when will you have a plugnplay setup and for how much more? Pretty much everyone is waiting for that...no one wants to splice into there ECU. Your price is far better than the XEDE and that makes it far more attractive. If you can get a plug and a map near the 290whp mark I will be more than happy to order when you are ready.


Tough question with no good answer unfortunately. I believe all the tuner companies are going to the same electrical connector distributors, so I believe if one company finds connectors, we all will. We do have one avenue for sourcing connectors if all other options fail. We haven't finalized pricing on the PnP model yet, but we're looking to come in around $700.

And truth be told (please don't take offense to this), big horsepower numbers isn't really how we operate at CPE. Obviously horsepower sells, but we're more concerned with the versatility and robustness of the unit. Let me explain. The amount of power one can extract from an engine is pretty much based on your fuel mixture, ignition timing, and boost pressure. How you go about controlling these parameters isn't important as long as they function correctly. In other words, it doesn't matter which tuner you use, so much as what you change. So, we maybe could in theory produce a map for a stock SPEED6 that makes 290hp, but at what cost? Should we increase boost, timing advance, and lean out the mixture just to post good power numbers?

Tuning a car is a black art in that there's no real right answer. We would like to create a base tune for a SPEED6 that makes a lot of power because that's what everyone is here for, but we're going to make sure our tune is safe, but still a lot of fun. If you want to push your car harder than we will, well then have at it and let us know how it goes!


Great job and wonderful info. It is awesome to see another informative post from a vendor offering a new product for the MS6/3.

Thanks,
R


Glad you liked the info in the post!! (drinks)


Jordan

[jcgemt2003]

Very well put...Im also concerned about safe ranges...I have concerns about blowing my engine and turbo so its nice to hear that your not just lookn to put a ton of power into the car to sell units...leaving the customer to wonder how much wear and tear he is actually causing...Thank you very much for the timely response.

[Karma_hunden]

CP-E is definaely the way to go, Im definatelly looking forward on this tune and as jcgemt said, it is great you guys are thinking of power and safety!

How many whp/tq gains?

[Klip]

Looking foward to purchasing this unit when it's PnP, I don't understand all the info but your taking the time to post it and then the added explaination of:
"And truth be told (please don't take offense to this), big horsepower numbers isn't really how we operate at CPE. Obviously horsepower sells, but we're more concerned with the versatility and robustness of the unit."

just convinced me to take my time and wait for CP-E to "get it done right the first time" before I place an order.

Thanks Jordan

[VA03Speed]

This unit definitely interest me, but if this unit puts down some good numbers I may consider this over the xede piggyback system after the taxes get done.

[Rican219]

I'm Terested as well. More Info

[Speed6 Guy]

This is vary well put. I can’t wait to see what this car can do safely and on a daily basis.

[jcgemt2003]

This unit definitely interest me, but if this unit puts down some good numbers I may consider this over the xede piggyback system after the taxes get done.
ThatS funny as hell...thats what me and probably 10 other people are waitn for (TAX RETURNS)!

[dread]

So it sounds like the speed 3 setup is not optimal for tuning. When do you think you will have a tuning solution for the speed 3?

[www.cp-e.com]

I'm glad to hear you guys like what you see so far! I'll keep updating this post as we get closer to production, and please don't hesitate to ask a question about our piggyback or CPE in general.


CP-E is definaely the way to go, Im definatelly looking forward on this tune and as jcgemt said, it is great you guys are thinking of power and safety!

How many whp/tq gains?


If I were to guess, I'd say our map will probably add about 20-30hp. This is of course an "off the top of my head" estimate since we haven't created the map yet. I think it really depends on how much more timing we can safely add, and how much fuel we can safely take out. We already found that running much over 16psi of boost doesn't really do a whole lot because of the efficiency of this turbo.


So it sounds like the speed 3 setup is not optimal for tuning. When do you think you will have a tuning solution for the speed 3?


We actually brought our SPEED3 to the dyno a few weeks ago to run some tests. We wanted to see if our piggyback would work on the SPEED3, and we wanted to see how bad the infamous e-throttle really was. We weren't gentle with our SPEED car, as we ran over 50 WOT dyno pulls that day! Fortunately, we found our piggyback was able to successfully adjust boost, timing, and air/fuel, but the throttle plate is really quite a show stopper. The SPEED6's throttle does limit boost to some degree towards redline, but we felt that to get the most out of the SPEED3, you need to get control of that throttle body. We can only imagine how much opwer one can pick up by opening the throttle a little more at WOT. Horsepower is a function of volumetric efficiency, and I can't imagine a 1/3-opened throttle plate at 6000rpm is very beneficial for power production.

Also, despite what some magazines say, we datalogged the throttle position during our dyno runs and found that it limits boost to some degree in every gear below 5th. In other words, the throttle is still closing early and limiting boost even in fourth gear. So we feel our piggyback for the SPEED3 is incomplete in its current state. The only way to fix this problem is to get control of the throttle plate.

As a result, we're reconfiguring our circuit board to accomodate two extra processors to control the throttle body on the SPEED3. Our electrical engineer has started this project, as he's finishing the piggyback for the SPEED6. I imagine we'll have something to show for the SPEED3 in about a month or so if things go well.


Jordan

[dread]

Nice, its good to hear that you guys are being very thorough, and air on the side of a safe tune. To the best of your knowledge does the XEDE control throttle position or will the CPE, be the first to do this. I am guessing you want to control the throttle position so the power doesn't drop at 5500rpms.

[DSMConvert]

grats cpe! I'm glad to see another company on here that is more concerned with driveability and safety, then just big hp/tq numbers to sell units! I look forward to reading about more results...

[www.cp-e.com]

Nice, its good to hear that you guys are being very thorough, and air on the side of a safe tune. To the best of your knowledge does the XEDE control throttle position or will the CPE, be the first to do this. I am guessing you want to control the throttle position so the power doesn't drop at 5500rpms.


Please understand, I'm not here to make speculations about other people's products, since I wouldn't want other people making claims about CPE's intentions or goals. Maybe the Xede reps on the board can give you a better idea of what they're plans are for the throttle plate.

But we are pursuing control over the throttle plate for exactly the reason you mentioned.


grats cpe! I'm glad to see another company on here that is more concerned with driveability and safety, then just big hp/tq numbers to sell units! I look forward to reading about more results...


Thanks for the warm welcome! We're really excited to finally be on the boards here, and you can expect more sharing of technical data with the community. We love learning about these cars, and we figure you guys do too. So we'll be posting our findings on the boards to help stir up interest, and to get valuable feedback from you guys.


Jordan

[RevLimitLaunch]

if you can get significant gains, pnp and keep tp open a lot more so that the power doesnt die til redline lol....xede (second on list) and cobb ap (first on list) will probably be headin out of the window.

what will you need for tuning?

[dread]

Please understand, I'm not here to make speculations about other people's products, since I wouldn't want other people making claims about CPE's intentions or goals. Maybe the Xede reps on the board can give you a better idea of what they're plans are for the throttle plate.

But we are pursuing control over the throttle plate for exactly the reason you mentioned.





Thanks for the warm welcome! We're really excited to finally be on the boards here, and you can expect more sharing of technical data with the community. We love learning about these cars, and we figure you guys do too. So we'll be posting our findings on the boards to help stir up interest, and to get valuable feedback from you guys.


Jordan

Yeah I figured as much, didn't mean to put you in a bad spot.

[www.cp-e.com]

Yeah I figured as much, didn't mean to put you in a bad spot.


No problem, and thanks for understanding my position! (drive2)


Jordan

[VinnieBeachbum]

are you going to be able to get control of the throttle on the speed6 also? more trottle more fuel more air more boom!

[www.cp-e.com]

are you going to be able to get control of the throttle on the speed6 also? more trottle more fuel more air more boom!


The short answer to that question is yes we will be able to control the throttle plate, but just not with this box. Our piggyback for the SPEED3, which will control the throttle plate, will be applied to the SPEED6 at some point down the road.


Jordan

[matsuda]

For a variety of reasons, it would be nice if your box was also tied into the knock sensor.

[VinnieBeachbum]

CP-E can I see your box I have something hard to put in it(poke) (hitit2)

[jcgemt2003]

CP-E can I see your box I have something hard to put in it(poke) (hitit2)
thats funny

[dread]

that is funny

[www.cp-e.com]

For a variety of reasons, it would be nice if your box was also tied into the knock sensor.


Actually, several input pins to the box were left open for this very reason. We can easily tie into other sensors if we want to. I like this idea, so I'm going to pass it on to our electrical engineer and see if that's a possibility.

In the box's current state it can log the following:

- RPM
- MAF voltage (incoming and outgoing)
- MAP voltage (incoming and outgoing)
- MAP pressure in psi
- TPS voltage
- Ignition timing (incoming and outgoing)
- Wastegate solenoid position (indicated on a scale from 0-255)
- Injector pulse width
- Proportional, integral, and derivative feedback loop control error
- Battery voltage


CP-E can I see your box I have something hard to put in it(poke) (hitit2)


(help)

No no, it's not that kind of box! (monkey2)


Jordan

[DotNet]

Are you implicating a second release? If so do initial buyers have to buy a new unit or can we upgrade for the throttle functionality? The throttle plate seems pretty important if you ask me. Even the smallest of limitations regarding volume I would consider a showstopper. Turbo's are meant to feed air...just don't see why Mazda would try and stop it???

I am sad to see the lengths Mazda has gone to control limitations with this car. The MS6 has great potential. Looks like we may be able to get past the factory hindered potential!

I am almost 100% onboard however I don't want to purchase a second unit and be stuck with release 1 that nobody will ever care about again.

Great approach! All MS6 owners have nothing but questions so this is truely a godsend.

[desperado-c]

Actually, several input pins to the box were left open for this very reason. We can easily tie into other sensors if we want to. I like this idea, so I'm going to pass it on to our electrical engineer and see if that's a possibility.

....
Jordan

Excellent, and in line with the CP-E philosophy of doing stuff that works well over the long haul. If it works out it will be yet another reason to stick with you guys.

Well played, Matsuda-san! I like your style, stepping in here and there at just the right moment with the gentle corrective. I believe you are a force for good despite your covert corporate status.

[www.cp-e.com]

Are you implicating a second release? If so do initial buyers have to buy a new unit or can we upgrade for the throttle functionality? The throttle plate seems pretty important if you ask me. Even the smallest of limitations regarding volume I would consider a showstopper. Turbo's are meant to feed air...just don't see why Mazda would try and stop it???

I am sad to see the lengths Mazda has gone to control limitations with this car. The MS6 has great potential. Looks like we may be able to get past the factory hindered potential!

I am almost 100% onboard however I don't want to purchase a second unit and be stuck with release 1 that nobody will ever care about again.

Great approach! All MS6 owners have nothing but questions so this is truely a godsend.


Hah, you know exactly where I'm going with this. I didn't want to go into a whole lot of detail since we haven't finalized our plans yet. But we're considering offerring this unit for an MSRP of about $600, and then if you'd like to upgrade to the new unit, we'll offer a core refund if you send us back the old board. We're going to ensure that if you buy the first unit, the second unit will be cheaper than if you hadn't bought the first one in the first place. Anyway, by the time you finally get your car dialed in the way you like it and get used to the software interface, it will be time to upgrade to the new board.

Regarding the throttle plate issue, you're right on in that throttle limitations are bad. The reason we're willing to live with it for now on the SPEED6 is because it doesn't seem to really limit boost pressure at all. Any drop in boost pressure (assuming the turbo is capable of supplying the engine with the requisite air) can be seen as an indication that the engine is choked by a partially closed throttle blade, and there will be a subsequent drop in the volumetric efficiency. Since the boost pressure doesn't drop until just near the redline, there is no impact on the VE below the redline where most of the engine operation takes place. So yes, getting control of the throttle is a goal of ours, but we believe at least on the SPEED6, that the throttle games it plays are nearly inconsequential. But of course when we release the second board revision we'll enable e-throttle control.

And we're stumpted as to why Mazda included all these limitation in the system too. I'm sure Mazda corporate hates seeing their brand new cars modified (read: warrantry concerns), so maybe that has something to do with it. But either way, we'll get around it and get the most out of this car because you're 100% correct, this thing could be a monster.


Excellent, and in line with the CP-E philosophy of doing stuff that works well over the long haul. If it works out it will be yet another reason to stick with you guys.

Well played, Matsuda-san! I like your style, stepping in here and there at just the right moment with the gentle corrective. I believe you are a force for good despite your covert corporate status.


(drinks)



Jordan

[flyrevs]

I'm Big time interested in this product. I really like the data logging functions.
The closed loop control of boost ROCKS!!!!

By the way can you run the boost control open loop if you choose?

Interesting point here is the XEDE dyno shows about 50+ HP gain on a stock MS3 and they are NOT controlling the throttle. If CP-E is going to also control the throttle, then I would expect HP gains to be on par or greater than 50 HP. I think they are both great products and I'm excited that there will be at least 2 offerings for good performance increases on the MS3.

For me, like a lot of other people on the forum, it's gotta be plug n play. If my car was out of warranty it wouldn't really matter, but everyone with a MS3 has almost all of their warranty remaining now.

Thanks for the great post and all the work you guys are doing!!!! :)

Yea my tax refund can't wait to be spent when this goes pnp. :):):):)

[www.cp-e.com]

I'm Big time interested in this product. I really like the data logging functions.
The closed loop control of boost ROCKS!!!!

By the way can you run the boost control open loop if you choose?

Interesting point here is the XEDE dyno shows about 50+ HP gain on a stock MS3 and they are NOT controlling the throttle. If CP-E is going to also control the throttle, then I would expect HP gains to be on par or greater than 50 HP. I think they are both great products and I'm excited that there will be at least 2 offerings for good performance increases on the MS3.

For me, like a lot of other people on the forum, it's gotta be plug n play. If my car was out of warranty it wouldn't really matter, but everyone with a MS3 has almost all of their warranty remaining now.

Thanks for the great post and all the work you guys are doing!!!! :)

Yea my tax refund can't wait to be spent when this goes pnp. :):):):)


Thanks for the compliments!! (headbang)

I hear you on the PnP issue. Unfortunately we're in a tough spot where we have very little control over the suppliers for those connectors. We're going through all the appropriate channels, but if that doesn't work we have another option. Hopefully we'll get a definite answer soon so we can start working on plan B. We'll see what we can do!


Jordan

[desperado-c]

I'm Big time interested in this product. ....

Interesting point here is the XEDE dyno shows about 50+ HP gain on a stock MS3 and they are NOT controlling the throttle. If CP-E is going to also control the throttle, then I would expect HP gains to be on par or greater than 50 HP. ....

One thing I like about CP-E is they are not out for the biggest HP gains. The off-the-top of the head estimates are 20-30 whp from this mod for the 6, anyway. Maybe a little more for the 3 since it starts out lower? Personally, I don't think we should hold them to the bleeding edge standard of 50+ whp just from a single mod on an FWD car. We all want more power, but I think what CP-E is after is a smoother, fatter curve that makes the additional power more useable. If the unit comes with a base map ready to lay down an additional 30-35 whp, maybe 40-45 with a CAI, in a nice, fat powerband, I'll be very happy to get that for my $600 ($700 for PnP?). Besides, if you want a more radical tune, you know you're gonna tune it yourself, anyway.

[flyrevs]

One thing I like about CP-E is they are not out for the biggest HP gains. The off-the-top of the head estimates are 20-30 whp from this mod. Personally, I don't think we should hold them to the bleeding edge standard of 50+ whp just from a single mod on an FWD car. We all want more power, but I think what CP-E is after is a smoother, fatter curve that makes the additional power more useable. If the unit comes with a base map ready to lay down an additional 30-35 whp, maybe 40-45 with a CAI, in a nice, fat powerband, I'll be very happy to get that for my $600 ($700 for PnP?). Besides, if you want a more radical tune , you know you're gonna tune it yourself, anyway.
I agree with you, my point in mentioning the XEDE was that with CP-E controlling the throttle position, it should in theory put out more than the unit not controlling the throttle. I'm not holding them to any specific level, just that it should be better with the throttle control. :):):)

Kind of makes me wonder how XEDE gets 57 HP WITHOUT throttle control.... :confused:

[dread]

If you look at the xede graphs the power band is pretty much the same as stock, but with 50 more horses. If you can control throttle, the car could maintain power all the way up to redline and come on lower as well. Can you imagine how nice the ms3 would drive with a much broader powerband. Right now I feel like I have to shift to much and am still getting used to shifting before the throttle takes away all of my power. If CPE can accomplish this I will be very impressed and forced to buy one.

[flyrevs]

If you look at the xede graphs the power band is pretty much the same as stock, but with 50 more horses. If you can control throttle, the car could maintain power all the way up to redline and come on lower as well. Can you imagine how nice the ms3 would drive with a much broader powerband. Right now I feel like I have to shift to much and am still getting used to shifting before the throttle takes away all of my power. If CPE can accomplish this I will be very impressed and forced to buy one.

I could not agree with you more! I will be very impressed and forced to buy one also. Looks like this is goin to be a really fun summer (hopefully spring too)........:):):)

[RevLimitLaunch]

I agree with you, my point in mentioning the XEDE was that with CP-E controlling the throttle position, it should in theory put out more than the unit not controlling the throttle. I'm not holding them to any specific level, just that it should be better with the throttle control. :):):)

Kind of makes me wonder how XEDE gets 57 HP WITHOUT throttle control.... :confused:


mmmm imagine 50whp gain along with having a powerband all the way to redline finally... that'd be awesome.... (humpleg)

[desperado-c]

I agree with you, my point in mentioning the XEDE was that with CP-E controlling the throttle position, it should in theory put out more than the unit not controlling the throttle. I'm not holding them to any specific level, just that it should be better with the throttle control. :):):)

Kind of makes me wonder how XEDE gets 57 HP WITHOUT throttle control.... :confused:

Me, too. That said, sure is nice to have a choice! Nice to be an MS3 owner. Now if it they could just get access to PnP components for those of us who are warranty wusses . . ..

[jdub260]

OK here is what I consider some good questions for cp-e.

Can the AWD distribution be manually controlled through this system or something similar? From what I know the AWD system is controlled by the computer.

Can this system be set up to automatically turn the DSC off? I hate having an electronic baby sitter, if I want it I should have to turn it on.

[StuttersC]

Cool, CP-E is jumping in with some heavy hitting tech about the cars.

Nice work.

[www.cp-e.com]

OK here is what I consider some good questions for cp-e.

Can the AWD distribution be manually controlled through this system or something similar? From what I know the AWD system is controlled by the computer.

Can this system be set up to automatically turn the DSC off? I hate having an electronic baby sitter, if I want it I should have to turn it on.


Those are good questions! Unfortunately we are unable to perform either of the operations you mention with our piggyback. You can basically think of a piggyback tuner as a signal conditioner. We can tap into any sensor and alter the signal sent to the ECU in order to change engine operation parameters from its stock configuration. Since the AWD system is heavily reliant on sensors (eg. wheel speed and steering angle) we could lie to the AWD system, but I'm can't come up with a scenario in my head where this would be beneficial? Maybe you can fill me in on what you're considering. But since the DSC system isn't exactly a sensor, we can't do much to change its default setting.



We actually ran into some issues last week with the fuel cut. It turns out that there's a lot more that goes into the fuel cut initiation than just the MAP sensor input. So, we wrestled with the SPEED6 for a while and were able to get it to do what we wanted it to, but we had to be clever about it (I'll explain in detail later). We're going to schedule a dyno for next week so we can create an optimized map for stock SPEED6's, and we'll start distributing our piggyback to beta testers soon as well. Stay tuned guys, there's a lot more to come!


Jordan

[jdub260]

Since the AWD system is heavily reliant on sensors (eg. wheel speed and steering angle) we could lie to the AWD system, but I'm can't come up with a scenario in my head where this would be beneficial? Maybe you can fill me in on what you're considering.
Jordan

I just got the idea from riding in a friends STI that had a manual adjustment mode along with an automatic mode. I have no clue exactly when the manual adjustments would be needed I just like to have my options open. You know it's one of those "Yea I can do that too" or "Yea I got that" situations. :D

[www.cp-e.com]

I just got the idea from riding in a friends STI that had a manual adjustment mode along with an automatic mode. I have no clue exactly when the manual adjustments would be needed I just like to have my options open. You know it's one of those "Yea I can do that too" or "Yea I got that" situations. :D


Ahh, I see. I enjoy trick features like that as well, so I can't blame you :)

Jordan

[MS64MEE]

We actually ran into some issues last week with the fuel cut. It turns out that there's a lot more that goes into the fuel cut initiation than just the MAP sensor input. So, we wrestled with the SPEED6 for a while and were able to get it to do what we wanted it to, but we had to be clever about it (I'll explain in detail later). We're going to schedule a dyno for next week so we can create an optimized map for stock SPEED6's, and we'll start distributing our piggyback to beta testers soon as well. Stay tuned guys, there's a lot more to come!


Jordan

Jordan -- Will the maps that you're creating be compatible with cars that run 91? Since these cars seem sensitive to octane, I was wondering how maps based on a car using 93 will run for those of us who have to run 91.

BTW...Kudos to you guys at CPE. I'm new to this tuning stuff but you have really got my attention with your piggyback (so much that I've held back on my originally planned purchase of the ETS TMIC). I've enjoyed learning about this car through your detailed posts and as an engineer, I can really appreciate the care and detail that you guys seem to bring to your work. Also, I like your philosophy of increasing power but in a reliable way because this is my daily driver that I plan to drive for awhile.

[spike blue]

nice info!!! I have a question will this piggi back will work in the cx-7 o you're planning on making one for the cx-7???

[www.cp-e.com]

Jordan -- Will the maps that you're creating be compatible with cars that run 91? Since these cars seem sensitive to octane, I was wondering how maps based on a car using 93 will run for those of us who have to run 91.

BTW...Kudos to you guys at CPE. I'm new to this tuning stuff but you have really got my attention with your piggyback (so much that I've held back on my originally planned purchase of the ETS TMIC). I've enjoyed learning about this car through your detailed posts and as an engineer, I can really appreciate the care and detail that you guys seem to bring to your work. Also, I like your philosophy of increasing power but in a reliable way because this is my daily driver that I plan to drive for awhile.


I don't think there's any better compliment then a kudos from a fellow engineer! Your comments mean a lot to us, thanks!

Concerning octane and our tune, we're really not going to tune the SPEED6 to the ragged edge. Since this map needs to work on a wide range of cars (many of which are daily drivers like yours), we're going to keep our tune conservative, but it will still make a noticable difference nonetheless. A good example of this is with our Subaru STi intake kit. We were only able to tune the air/fuel ratio, and our changes were very conservative so it would work with either 91 or 93 octane, and we still picked up over 25 horsepower up top.

http://www.cp-e.com/imgs/MAFstihp.gif

Since we can also adjust timing and boost pressure on the MS6, I'd expect some pretty substantial gains despite the factor of safety we're building in. We figure if someone would like to pick up as much power as possible, we'll leave it to the end-user to tune their car the way they like it if our tune isn't aggressive enough. So really, our tune should work with both 91 and 93 octane and should be just fine for your daily driver.


Jordan

[MS64MEE]

Since we can also adjust timing and boost pressure on the MS6, I'd expect some pretty substantial gains despite the factor of safety we're building in. We figure if someone would like to pick up as much power as possible, we'll leave it to the end-user to tune their car the way they like it if our tune isn't aggressive enough. So really, our tune should work with both 91 and 93 octane and should be just fine for your daily driver.


Jordan
(2thumbs) Between working with 91 and getting that line on those PnP connectors (which I know you will), you've just about got me locked in (much to my wife's chagrin (lol2) )

[RevLimitLaunch]

will you be able to control boost so it stays consistant in all gears (i dont know if everyones car is like this but mine hits 11 psi in 1 and 2, then 15 or so in the rest)...

i may not have read past posts correctly, but have you conquered throttle position so its stays open more throughout the whole rpm band?? this is probably the biggest concern to me so that the use actually having that redline on these cars will sometime matter lol.

[www.cp-e.com]

will you be able to control boost so it stays consistant in all gears (i dont know if everyones car is like this but mine hits 11 psi in 1 and 2, then 15 or so in the rest)...

i may not have read past posts correctly, but have you conquered throttle position so its stays open more throughout the whole rpm band?? this is probably the biggest concern to me so that the use actually having that redline on these cars will sometime matter lol.


Because our piggyback features a feedback loop for the boost pressure, it will open or close the wastegate to generate the boost you demand. So regardless of what gear you're in, if your engine is capable of making the boost you're requesting, our piggyback will increase the wastegate duty cycle until it hits its target.

As far as the throttle plate goes, we've come to the conclusion that the throttle plate isn't as much of a restriction as it is on the SPEED6 as it is on the 3, and we won't have any control over it with this board. However, since we need to get control of the throttle on the SPEED3 soon, and because the electrical board layouts are almost identical to each other, we're likely going to offer an upgrade to the new board once we finish it. In other words, if you buy our piggyback now and would like to upgrade to the new board later, we'll offer you a core exchange so that your total cost is less than if you had just bought the newer board alone. This way we can release the piggyback now, you can enjoy 98% of what you car has to offer, and you can like to upgrade later if you'd like.

But we've found (at least with our test car) that if you tune the car well, it'll pull hard to redline even if the throttle does close a little.


Jordan

[spike blue]

will this piggiback work in the cx-7 or you are plannig on making one??? What happen with the downpipe and the exhaust you were planning to make??? I very interested in moding my car!!!

[www.cp-e.com]

will this piggiback work in the cx-7 or you are plannig on making one??? What happen with the downpipe and the exhaust you were planning to make??? I very interested in moding my car!!!


Our piggyback is easily adaptable to the CX7, but without any definitive evidence to show, we think that the throttle plate is very limiting on the CX7 like it is on the SPEED3. We need to verify this at some point before we do anything on the CX7. But we would like to release an optimized tune for the CX7 after we're finished with the SPEED3.

We were going to make a downpipe and exhaust for the CX7 when it first came out, but we've been very dissapointed with the sales of our cold air intake so our plans have changed. I'll be frank with you, since we released the intake back in November, we've sold all of 8 cold air kits. So at the moment, we've lost money on that project. The majority of threads in the CX7 forum indicate that people want lot's of performance parts, but there only seem to be a small group of people who actually buy the parts that are already available. So it's hard for us to justify another CX7 project after losing money on what is typically one of our most successful products (i.e. cold air kits). If our CX7 intake starts selling well indicating that people are ready to mod their vehicles, then we'll consider doing an exhaust system for it. But for now, we need to stick the vehicles that help keep our lights on. So, maybe make an exhaust for the CX7 in the future, but we don't have any immediate plans to do so. So sorry spike :(


Jordan

[spike blue]

ohh ok i understand that!!! Thats a good point!!! But you still have intakes for the cx-7??? I will buy it next month!!! Well i hope cx-7 owners start to mod this monster LOL. thanks!!!

[www.cp-e.com]

ohh ok i understand that!!! Thats a good point!!! But you still have intakes for the cx-7??? I will buy it next month!!! Well i hope cx-7 owners start to mod this monster LOL. thanks!!!


Actually I've been meaning to post a new thread in the CX7 forum. We'd like to dyno a local front wheel drive CX7 because we believe that the intake made more power than the dyno graphs indicate. We had a lot of issues with the AWD DSC on the dyno, and we tried everything we could to get consistent numbers. The numbers we got are good, but we think with a FWD version with the DSC off would show the true potential of the intake.

But we still have the intake for sale, in fact I think we have about 15 units here, so we should have one ready for you when you place your order. Thanks a lot for understanding our position (drinks)


Jordan

[RevLimitLaunch]

Because our piggyback features a feedback loop for the boost pressure, it will open or close the wastegate to generate the boost you demand. So regardless of what gear you're in, if your engine is capable of making the boost you're requesting, our piggyback will increase the wastegate duty cycle until it hits its target.

As far as the throttle plate goes, we've come to the conclusion that the throttle plate isn't as much of a restriction as it is on the SPEED6 as it is on the 3, and we won't have any control over it with this board. However, since we need to get control of the throttle on the SPEED3 soon, and because the electrical board layouts are almost identical to each other, we're likely going to offer an upgrade to the new board once we finish it. In other words, if you buy our piggyback now and would like to upgrade to the new board later, we'll offer you a core exchange so that your total cost is less than if you had just bought the newer board alone. This way we can release the piggyback now, you can enjoy 98% of what you car has to offer, and you can like to upgrade later if you'd like.

But we've found (at least with our test car) that if you tune the car well, it'll pull hard to redline even if the throttle does close a little.


Jordan

well regardless i would love to have that throttle control, but i plan on buying the unit either way as soon as its pnp. cant wait to squeeze more power out of the beast. (alright)

[www.cp-e.com]

well regardless i would love to have that throttle control, but i plan on buying the unit either way as soon as its pnp. cant wait to squeeze more power out of the beast. (alright)


Excellent, we'll be sure to let you guys know asap when we get the PnP connectors!


Jordan

[RevLimitLaunch]

besides a base map, will it be self tuneable? and if so, what will you need for it?

[www.cp-e.com]

besides a base map, will it be self tuneable? and if so, what will you need for it?


Unfortunately no, no self-tuning feature with this piggyback. All tuning needs to be done manually using at least a wideband O2, and an EGT gauge wouldn't hurt either if you've got one. If you make a wide open throttle run and find that you run lean say, past 4000rpm, then you can add any percentage of fuel you want based on your throttle position, mass air voltage, or boost pressure at 4000rpm and on up (or any other rpm for that matter). Add some fuel and make another run to see if your air/fuel ratio is where you want it to be, and adjust accordingly.

But if you really want the car dialed in and get the most out of it, I'd suggest taking it to a dyno. I think this car could tolerate some more timing, which should make for a nice increase in power, but you really need to know what you're doing since it isn't as straightforward as adjusting the air/fuel ratio is.


Jordan

[RevLimitLaunch]

lol sorry, with self-tuning i meant by tuning it myself. but either way you still answered my question? what will you need to tune it? laptop im guessing obviously and a serial cable (i think thats what their called)?

[www.cp-e.com]

lol sorry, with self-tuning i meant by tuning it myself. but either way you still answered my question? what will you need to tune it? laptop im guessing obviously and a serial cable (i think thats what their called)?


Hah! Sorry about that (lol2)

You actually don't /need/ a laptop, but it makes the process much faster. Hypothetically you could run the car and make changes on your home computer, but having a laptop makes more sense. But if you are going to use your laptop, you'll need a USB cable to make changes to your tune.

Most tuners use serial cables because they're easier to implement, but most laptops don't even come with serial ports anymore. Plus, if you have any experience using those serial-to-USB adapters, they don't work more often than not. So we went through the extra effort of putting a USB interface on our piggyback so people don't have to dick with adapters.

So, the bare essentials are a laptop and USB cable, but a good wideband is worth its weight in gold in my opinion.


Jordan

[spike blue]

Actually I've been meaning to post a new thread in the CX7 forum. We'd like to dyno a local front wheel drive CX7 because we believe that the intake made more power than the dyno graphs indicate. We had a lot of issues with the AWD DSC on the dyno, and we tried everything we could to get consistent numbers. The numbers we got are good, but we think with a FWD version with the DSC off would show the true potential of the intake.

But we still have the intake for sale, in fact I think we have about 15 units here, so we should have one ready for you when you place your order. Thanks a lot for understanding our position (drinks)

Jordan


No problem. Jordan i post a thread in the cx-7 forum about the interest of buying cais and some more stuff!!!I hope that can help!!!!(peep)

[4DRHTRD]

Hah! Sorry about that (lol2)

You actually don't /need/ a laptop, but it makes the process much faster. Hypothetically you could run the car and make changes on your home computer, but having a laptop makes more sense. But if you are going to use your laptop, you'll need a USB cable to make changes to your tune.

Most tuners use serial cables because they're easier to implement, but most laptops don't even come with serial ports anymore. Plus, if you have any experience using those serial-to-USB adapters, they don't work more often than not. So we went through the extra effort of putting a USB interface on our piggyback so people don't have to dick with adapters.

So, the bare essentials are a laptop and USB cable, but a good wideband is worth its weight in gold in my opinion.


Jordan
If you want to do road tuning you can get any of the CAN data bus compatible OBD-2 scanners, I use autoenginuity's which can look at the factory wideband O2 readings, MAP voltage, MAF voltage and more. Eventually I hope to get a permanant solution in my car using the NAV video screen and software guages like the ones from PCM Scan. Dyno is great but the only thing it can't do is simulate a true load on the car like wind does. You have no idea how hard it is on the car to push itself through the wind at 80+ MPH, this affects the tune (at least in my humble opinion).

Jordan is right thought, I can't wait to see what they're coming out with.

[RevLimitLaunch]

Hah! Sorry about that (lol2)

You actually don't /need/ a laptop, but it makes the process much faster. Hypothetically you could run the car and make changes on your home computer, but having a laptop makes more sense. But if you are going to use your laptop, you'll need a USB cable to make changes to your tune.

Most tuners use serial cables because they're easier to implement, but most laptops don't even come with serial ports anymore. Plus, if you have any experience using those serial-to-USB adapters, they don't work more often than not. So we went through the extra effort of putting a USB interface on our piggyback so people don't have to dick with adapters.

So, the bare essentials are a laptop and USB cable, but a good wideband is worth its weight in gold in my opinion.


Jordan

awesome, laptop and usb makes things easy as hell. please explain how you'd be able to make changes from your home computer? thanks!

[got_titan]

wow, this is truly great news.......cant wait for the cpe intake and piggyback...

[desperado-c]

awesome, laptop and usb makes things easy as hell. please explain how you'd be able to make changes from your home computer? thanks!

Xede doesn't have USB. I guess that's the benefit to having an EE on board. Not that I'm gonna do it anytime soon, but is tuning s/w part of the package or something you need to get separately? Sorry if this has been asked and answered already.

[www.cp-e.com]

awesome, laptop and usb makes things easy as hell. please explain how you'd be able to make changes from your home computer? thanks!


If you wanted to, you could flash the changes to the piggyback on your home computer, and then plug the unit back into your car. Of course this is tedius, but if you don't have a laptop, it'll at least get the job done. You're able to this with our unit because it's USB, which is what supplies power to the board when it's out of the car.


Xede doesn't have USB. I guess that's the benefit to having an EE on board. Not that I'm gonna do it anytime soon, but is tuning s/w part of the package or something you need to get separately? Sorry if this has been asked and answered already.


Our piggyback will come with all the tools you need to make the appropriate changes to your car. This includes all wiring accessories, software, and instructions. The appropriate gauges and sensors are up to the end-user though.



*And just to keep you guys updated, we recently took a local SPEED6 to the dyno to verify that ourpiggyback works, and it performed flawlessly on all accounts. We were able to adjust fuel, timing, and boost pressure in both directions. Our previous fueling strategy caused a fuel cut whenever we tried to add fuel to the engine, but Lou found a solution that works really well. So we're in the process of building beta units for several local testers. Once they tune their cars and give us some feedback we'll start full-scale production!


Jordan

[sixerjdm]

Hey Jordan,

I am Jonathon from Van Dyn Hoven Imports. I sent Dr. John Lee over to you for a CX-7 CAI and we installed it for him.

All I need is time and a COLOR CATALOG!!!!!!!!!

[www.cp-e.com]

Hey Jordan,

I am Jonathon from Van Dyn Hoven Imports. I sent Dr. John Lee over to you for a CX-7 CAI and we installed it for him.

All I need is time and a COLOR CATALOG!!!!!!!!!


Please forgive me, but I'm not sure I follow what you're asking for? (doh)


Jordan

[sixerjdm]

I was just saying that we had a customer order from you for the CAI on a CX-7 and it would be cool to get a catalog of your parts for our dealership. I pushed him into the sale and I always mention CP-E on just about every Mazda demo I do.

[www.cp-e.com]

I was just saying that we had a customer order from you for the CAI on a CX-7 and it would be cool to get a catalog of your parts for our dealership. I pushed him into the sale and I always mention CP-E on just about every Mazda demo I do.


That's great! If you PM me with your name and address, I'd be happy to send you out a little sales package. Had a chance to check out the SPEED3 CAI yet?


Jordan

[Rican219]

If you wanted to, you could flash the changes to the piggyback on your home computer, and then plug the unit back into your car. Of course this is tedius, but if you don't have a laptop, it'll at least get the job done. You're able to this with our unit because it's USB, which is what supplies power to the board when it's out of the car.





Our piggyback will come with all the tools you need to make the appropriate changes to your car. This includes all wiring accessories, software, and instructions. The appropriate gauges and sensors are up to the end-user though.



*And just to keep you guys updated, we recently took a local SPEED6 to the dyno to verify that ourpiggyback works, and it performed flawlessly on all accounts. We were able to adjust fuel, timing, and boost pressure in both directions. Our previous fueling strategy caused a fuel cut whenever we tried to add fuel to the engine, but Lou found a solution that works really well. So we're in the process of building beta units for several local testers. Once they tune their cars and give us some feedback we'll start full-scale production!


Jordan

CAN'T wait I'll be first on your list to buy if it comes out good

[wannabe]

very cool stuff. hopefully by the time I am starting to want more out of this car (probably a while, i'm coming from an N/A Protege...) all of the products will be released and beat on by members.

[MUSOM]

Just gotta throw my 2-cents in. I actually drove from Huntington, WV to Beltsville to visit the CPE shop myself. I was hesitant to spend $$ on my baby (I call her EL TORO "THE BULL") before meeting the CPE team myself. So I drove 5 hours to Maryland fighting beltway traffic and a bad hangover. Needless to say, the CPE team literally opened the shop for me on a Saturday afternoon, welcomed me to a delightful couch to sleep on while they installed CAI, CATBACK, and DOWNPIPE. And let me tell you something....these boys are true professionals. They wouldn't let me leave until they knew I was completely satisfied and took my car on numerous test runs to feel the difference in power. The team and I figured we added more than 45 wheel horses in a matter of 6 hours (without any dyno testing). Afterwards we ordered a pizza and because they knew i had a long drive ahead of me, they invited me to stay in at their place for the night and leave in the morning. I declined, however on the way home I received a phonecall from the team, wanting to "make for certain that I was pleased with my car, and to make sure I made it home all right".

So, If anyone wants to know who I'm going to purchase my engine management system off of....you could probably guess CPE. As a matter of fact, I very seriously doubt I will purchase any products without the CPE label. The CPE team showed a lot of professionalism and dedication to their products. My suggestion fella's.......GO CPE.

[wannabe]

Just gotta throw my 2-cents in. I actually drove from Huntington, WV to Beltsville to visit the CPE shop myself. I was hesitant to spend $$ on my baby (I call her EL TORO "THE BULL") before meeting the CPE team myself. So I drove 5 hours to Maryland fighting beltway traffic and a bad hangover. Needless to say, the CPE team literally opened the shop for me on a Saturday afternoon, welcomed me to a delightful couch to sleep on while they installed CAI, CATBACK, and DOWNPIPE. And let me tell you something....these boys are true professionals. They wouldn't let me leave until they knew I was completely satisfied and took my car on numerous test runs to feel the difference in power. The team and I figured we added more than 45 wheel horses in a matter of 6 hours (without any dyno testing). Afterwards we ordered a pizza and because they knew i had a long drive ahead of me, they invited me to stay in at their place for the night and leave in the morning. I declined, however on the way home I received a phonecall from the team, wanting to "make for certain that I was pleased with my car, and to make sure I made it home all right".

So, If anyone wants to know who I'm going to purchase my engine management system off of....you could probably guess CPE. As a matter of fact, I very seriously doubt I will purchase any products without the CPE label. The CPE team showed a lot of professionalism and dedication to their products. My suggestion fella's.......GO CPE.

that's one hell of a review (thumb)

[www.cp-e.com]

Just gotta throw my 2-cents in. I actually drove from Huntington, WV to Beltsville to visit the CPE shop myself. I was hesitant to spend $$ on my baby (I call her EL TORO "THE BULL") before meeting the CPE team myself. So I drove 5 hours to Maryland fighting beltway traffic and a bad hangover. Needless to say, the CPE team literally opened the shop for me on a Saturday afternoon, welcomed me to a delightful couch to sleep on while they installed CAI, CATBACK, and DOWNPIPE. And let me tell you something....these boys are true professionals. They wouldn't let me leave until they knew I was completely satisfied and took my car on numerous test runs to feel the difference in power. The team and I figured we added more than 45 wheel horses in a matter of 6 hours (without any dyno testing). Afterwards we ordered a pizza and because they knew i had a long drive ahead of me, they invited me to stay in at their place for the night and leave in the morning. I declined, however on the way home I received a phonecall from the team, wanting to "make for certain that I was pleased with my car, and to make sure I made it home all right".

So, If anyone wants to know who I'm going to purchase my engine management system off of....you could probably guess CPE. As a matter of fact, I very seriously doubt I will purchase any products without the CPE label. The CPE team showed a lot of professionalism and dedication to their products. My suggestion fella's.......GO CPE.


(bow)


Jordan

[dread]

(breakn) (nana) (10) Just gotta throw my 2-cents in. I actually drove from Huntington, WV to Beltsville to visit the CPE shop myself. I was hesitant to spend $$ on my baby (I call her EL TORO "THE BULL") before meeting the CPE team myself. So I drove 5 hours to Maryland fighting beltway traffic and a bad hangover. Needless to say, the CPE team literally opened the shop for me on a Saturday afternoon, welcomed me to a delightful couch to sleep on while they installed CAI, CATBACK, and DOWNPIPE. And let me tell you something....these boys are true professionals. They wouldn't let me leave until they knew I was completely satisfied and took my car on numerous test runs to feel the difference in power. The team and I figured we added more than 45 wheel horses in a matter of 6 hours (without any dyno testing). Afterwards we ordered a pizza and because they knew i had a long drive ahead of me, they invited me to stay in at their place for the night and leave in the morning. I declined, however on the way home I received a phonecall from the team, wanting to "make for certain that I was pleased with my car, and to make sure I made it home all right".

So, If anyone wants to know who I'm going to purchase my engine management system off of....you could probably guess CPE. As a matter of fact, I very seriously doubt I will purchase any products without the CPE label. The CPE team showed a lot of professionalism and dedication to their products. My suggestion fella's.......GO CPE.

[sixerjdm]

That would be great Jordan!!!! I just don't know how to do a PM so I listed my dealer address below and I will E-mail my name over to your sales address on your site ASAP!!!

P.S. I just installed my first CP-E purchase which was a CP-E Excel on my Speed3 and I will show it to every demo I do and the fit and finish is impeccable. I left the details of my impressions in the engine performance section for the speed3 in this forum. It kicks ass!!!!!!!!!!!

I look forward to this sales kit and I will actively notify my customers of new product availability!!!!!!

My dealer address is,

Van Dyn Hoven Imports
3023 Victory Lane
Appleton, WI 54913

[www.cp-e.com]

That would be great Jordan!!!! I just don't know how to do a PM so I listed my dealer address below and I will E-mail my name over to your sales address on your site ASAP!!!

P.S. I just installed my first CP-E purchase which was a CP-E Excel on my Speed3 and I will show it to every demo I do and the fit and finish is impeccable. I left the details of my impressions in the engine performance section for the speed3 in this forum. It kicks ass!!!!!!!!!!!

I look forward to this sales kit and I will actively notify my customers of new product availability!!!!!!

My dealer address is,

Van Dyn Hoven Imports
3023 Victory Lane
Appleton, WI 54913


You got it man, I'll send some info out to you. We appreciate your telling people about our business since we do very little marketing at the moment. So thanks...big time (rockon)

I'm about to check out the post you made in the SPEED3 forums, and I thank you for that in advance. I think people typically post product reviews if they have a problem, so its nice to see someone taking the time to post their positive experiences. We can't thank you enough. I hope you enjoy the intake!


Jordan

[jdub260]

OK CP-E I came up with some more questions for you:

1. Will you be making maps for DP/Cat-Back/CAI, or will it just be stock only and leave it up to each person to go from there?

2. Will your piggyback/tuner be able to change the timing and if so will your base map(s) adjust the timing?

3. Wll your piggyback/tuner be able to read/clear CEL's?

4. Will you still be able to access the port while your piggyback/tuner is installed? I'm thinking of a connector like the plug at the end of a christmass tree light strand?

5. Does your lightweight battery tray come with a new battery? I might be reading your description wrong on your site but it doesn't actually say wheather it comes with the battery or not. It just says that it was designed to work with that battery. Also there is no battery in the pictures.

6. Last but not even close to least, Best guess approx. when do you think you will be able to have a PnP available for purchase, late spring/late summer?? and how do I get my name on the list to be the first to get one? :D

[EE-Geek]

So it looks like we now have quite a few options out, or coming out, for the speed6.. CAI, Catback, Downpipe, piggyback ECU. I was just wondering if you at CPE have an end goal in mind for the speed6. What is the next step? In other words, given that all your available parts are installed on a speed6, what then are the biggest bottlenecks left to "releasing the monster" you see in this car?

Also, you should let us know of (or show us a dyno plot) the difference between a stock speed6 and one with ALL you stuff installed.

Last, is the FMIC ever going to materialize? And do you have a "recommended" turbo upgrade given your knowledge of the engine's limits/potential?

[www.cp-e.com]

Great questions...


OK CP-E I came up with some more questions for you:

1. Will you be making maps for DP/Cat-Back/CAI, or will it just be stock only and leave it up to each person to go from there?

Yup, we'll have maps for at least the CAI, turboback, and intercooler since those seem to make the most pronounced changes to the car. We'll be including a CD with the piggyback containing all the maps, so you can use, edit, or trade them as you please.

2. Will your piggyback/tuner be able to change the timing and if so will your base map(s) adjust the timing?

It sure will. The problem is that in stock form, the timing is pretty well optimized. We were able to add about a degree of timing on a stock MS6 without any knock, but another degree over that caused knock. Since we like our tunes relatively conservative, and since people will be running a mix of 91/93 octane, we're going to leave the timing map alone. If people are running more efficient turbos or better intercoolers, then their setup may tolerate a few more degrees for some added power.

3. Wll your piggyback/tuner be able to read/clear CEL's?

No, unfortunately it won't. Because our tuner is a piggyback, it is only able to alter sensor signals sent to the ECU. Any codes stored need to be cleared with a scan tool of your choice.

4. Will you still be able to access the port while your piggyback/tuner is installed? I'm thinking of a connector like the plug at the end of a christmass tree light strand?

The OBD-II port will always be open since the piggyback gets wired between the sensors and the ECU. So you'll be tapping wires coming out of the ECU.

5. Does your lightweight battery tray come with a new battery? I might be reading your description wrong on your site but it doesn't actually say wheather it comes with the battery or not. It just says that it was designed to work with that battery. Also there is no battery in the pictures.

Unfortunately your hunch is correct. The battery tray comes without an Odyssey battery :(

6. Last but not even close to least, Best guess approx. when do you think you will be able to have a PnP available for purchase, late spring/late summer?? and how do I get my name on the list to be the first to get one? :D

I'd literally be making a wild guess. We're not waiting for any process to finish, we just have several contacts in the industry working with us in trying to find the correct connectors since Mazda is very tight lipped about it. So we may get PnP connectors tomorrow, or we may get them in June. It's unfortunately up in the air at the moment. If you do want to be sure that you get one of the first ones, you can give Josh Adams a call here at 301-576-6142 to be put on the pre-order list. He will require a credit card number in order to put you on the list, but it won't be charged until the unit ships.




So it looks like we now have quite a few options out, or coming out, for the speed6.. CAI, Catback, Downpipe, piggyback ECU. I was just wondering if you at CPE have an end goal in mind for the speed6. What is the next step? In other words, given that all your available parts are installed on a speed6, what then are the biggest bottlenecks left to "releasing the monster" you see in this car?

Also, you should let us know of (or show us a dyno plot) the difference between a stock speed6 and one with ALL you stuff installed.

Last, is the FMIC ever going to materialize? And do you have a "recommended" turbo upgrade given your knowledge of the engine's limits/potential?


I'm pretty sure the next two products we'll release for the SPEED6 will be our 550hp (maximum rating) turbo upgrade, and a tubular exhaust manifold. The turbo upgrade is already progressing, and we're going to tackle the header once we get the piggyback and intercooler out the door.

And we absolutely plan on releasing a dyno graph demonstrating the effectiveness of our optimized tune. Our last dyno was strictly for validation purposes, but we have a dyno scheduled for the week of the 19th, which is when we'll tune a stock SPEED6 for the optimized base map. We'll publish those grahps as soon as we're done tuning, so you'll know exactly what to expect from this product.

Finally, the intercooler was put on the sidelines temporarily while we were finishing up the SPEED3 exhaust system we're coming out with. I know the core was fixtured yesterday, so we're making progress again. I hate to sound like a broken record, but it should be any day now.


Jordan

[TX Speed 6]

I'm so excited to hear about all the great plans you have for the ms6/ms3!! thanks for all the updates!!

[jdub260]

4. Will you still be able to access the port while your piggyback/tuner is installed?

The OBD-II port will always be open since the piggyback gets wired between the sensors and the ECU. So you'll be tapping wires coming out of the ECU.

I should have clairfied that I ment the PnP unit. I thought a PnP piggyback plugged into the OBD-II port?? Piggyback tuning is completley new to me so sorry if this is a dumb question. I really don't want to make any changes that the dealer will notice, ie tapping into wires. I still have 35,000 miles left on the 'ol warranty. :D The only reason I asked this question is for custom tuning purposes. Like being able to have the piggyback installed and still use a scan tool to read real time engine data. Sorry for the 20 questions. Thanks for the honest answers.

[RevLimitLaunch]

I should have clairfied that I ment the PnP unit. I thought a PnP piggyback plugged into the OBD-II port?? Piggyback tuning is completley new to me so sorry if this is a dumb question. I really don't want to make any changes that the dealer will notice, ie tapping into wires. I still have 35,000 miles left on the 'ol warranty. :D The only reason I asked this question is for custom tuning purposes. Like being able to have the piggyback installed and still use a scan tool to read real time engine data. Sorry for the 20 questions. Thanks for the honest answers.

the cobb accessport plugs directly into your obd port i know that. the cpe goes inline with the ecu, with pnp (obviously) you wont have to worry about tapping into existing wires. lol, im in the same situation about the warranty ordeal so i cant wait for it to come out.

[VinnieBeachbum]

well soon enough I won't have to worry about the stupid warranty shitz. They may be revokin mine. I will find out tommorow. <blah>

[wannabe]

well soon enough I won't have to worry about the stupid warranty shitz. They may be revokin mine. I will find out tommorow. <blah>

they can't "revoke" a warranty. they can charge you for repairs of parts that were damaged by modding, but they cannot revoke a warranty.

[jdub260]

they can't "revoke" a warranty. they can charge you for repairs of parts that were damaged by modding, but they cannot revoke a warranty.
I have a buddy with an '06 STI and he was forced to sign a waiver that stated all future warranty repairs on his car would be a the discretion of subaru. Otherwise they were not going to do warranty work ever again. His lawyer told him that subaru was in the right and he should sign the waiver. They found out that he had been racing the car. He posted an article on scooby tuner and the factory service tech found it. Bad luck I guess.

[RevLimitLaunch]

yeah i've heard stories bout this sort of stuff too on an evo forum. dude posted a video and pics on his myspace of him raping his car on the autocross track and drag...warranty was cut off supposedly for anything dealing with the powertrain.

[www.cp-e.com]

I should have clairfied that I ment the PnP unit. I thought a PnP piggyback plugged into the OBD-II port?? Piggyback tuning is completley new to me so sorry if this is a dumb question. I really don't want to make any changes that the dealer will notice, ie tapping into wires. I still have 35,000 miles left on the 'ol warranty. :D The only reason I asked this question is for custom tuning purposes. Like being able to have the piggyback installed and still use a scan tool to read real time engine data. Sorry for the 20 questions. Thanks for the honest answers.


Hey, answering questions is part of my job!

The piggyback in PnP guise does not plug into the OBD port. There will be a plug that goes into the piggyback, and a harness going out. The plug going in is where the wiring harness that goes to the ECU will plug into the piggyback. Then, another harness will exit the piggyback and plug directly into the ECU. In order to do this, you need a male and female version of the ECU harness connector, which is what we're waiting on. I hope that makes more sense.


Jordan

[flyrevs]

Hey, answering questions is part of my job!

The piggyback in PnP guise does not plug into the OBD port. There will be a plug that goes into the piggyback, and a harness going out. The plug going in is where the wiring harness that goes to the ECU will plug into the piggyback. Then, another harness will exit the piggyback and plug directly into the ECU. In order to do this, you need a male and female version of the ECU harness connector, which is what we're waiting on. I hope that makes more sense.


Jordan Thanks for the update on PNP, are they making headway on the connectors ? Any idea (ball park figure) on when your tuner will be released? Thanks!(shady)

[www.cp-e.com]

Thanks for the update on PNP, are they making headway on the connectors ? Any idea (ball park figure) on when your tuner will be released? Thanks!(shady)


No problem :D

We don't really get updates on the PnP connectors. We have a few companies who are trying to identify and source the connectors. If they have luck, they'll contact us. It kind of stinks, but we have to play a waiting game :(

If things go well at our dyno appointment next week, then the piggyback release shouldn't be long after that. We'll also release the dyno numbers and full description of the piggyback. Ballpark, we're talking two to three weeks from this moment.


Jordan

[RevLimitLaunch]

is there going to be any sort of datalogging function thru connection with a laptop at all or any device?

[flyrevs]

No problem :D

We don't really get updates on the PnP connectors. We have a few companies who are trying to identify and source the connectors. If they have luck, they'll contact us. It kind of stinks, but we have to play a waiting game :(

If things go well at our dyno appointment next week, then the piggyback release shouldn't be long after that. We'll also release the dyno numbers and full description of the piggyback. Ballpark, we're talking two to three weeks from this moment.


Jordan Exciting News!!!!! Can't wait !!!
Thanks, you guys rock...........:)

[VinnieBeachbum]

got a P/N? or anything I can try to see if the navy stock system has it!!! hahahahahha it probably does believe it or not

[StuttersC]

The hard part of the dang connectors is deciphering the little logo on them.

Once the logo is matched with the little company in where-ever-land, then you have a start. The little guy who makes the connectors is usually a better or cheaper way to go than trying to source things through the manufacturer, in this case Mazda.

This same issue happened with the Protege. The only known source was Mazda, no one figured out who the supplier was for the ECU connectors. Mazda wanted bank for each friggin' connector. No market for the plug and play stuff until the MSP gained enough popularity for Unichip to do something. Anyway, long story.

[www.cp-e.com]

is there going to be any sort of datalogging function thru connection with a laptop at all or any device?

You bet :) . You need a laptop in order to datalog, but you can record anything from MAF voltage, MAP pressure, TPS, RPM, Injector duty cycle, wastegate duty cycle, ignition timing...the list is pretty substantial.

We'll have a full list of all the piggyback's capabilities once we release it.


Exciting News!!!!! Can't wait !!!
Thanks, you guys rock...........:)

Thanks boss :cool:


got a P/N? or anything I can try to see if the navy stock system has it!!! hahahahahha it probably does believe it or not

That's actually the hard part we're working on :(


The hard part of the dang connectors is deciphering the little logo on them.

Once the logo is matched with the little company in where-ever-land, then you have a start. The little guy who makes the connectors is usually a better or cheaper way to go than trying to source things through the manufacturer, in this case Mazda.

This same issue happened with the Protege. The only known source was Mazda, no one figured out who the supplier was for the ECU connectors. Mazda wanted bank for each friggin' connector. No market for the plug and play stuff until the MSP gained enough popularity for Unichip to do something. Anyway, long story.

The funny thing is, we know what company sells the connectors, they just have very little motivation to help us out at this point, just like you said. But we're still working on it, and we may strike gold. If we do, we'll let everyone know asap.


Jordan

[flyrevs]

The funny thing is, we know what company sells the connectors, they just have very little motivation to help us out at this point,
Jordan My suggestion:
$$$$ is the motivator for business. Tell them you will pay them DOUBLE the current price for a batch of like 100 or so. Then add this cost into your tuner, once you start selling more of these re-negotiate the price.

[sixerjdm]

Hey Jordan,

You seem to be very active in this section and I don't mean to cross polinate the community subject matter but I just have a quick question for you regarding your Speed3 campaign which I am pretty well committed to.

Between the CAI, turbo back exhaust, MZR hybrid turbo, FMIC, engine management, etc.

At what point would you recommend considering forged pistons and further engine rebuilding?

It seems like cp-e intends bolt-on operation with no internal mods to support higher boost and leaner fuel mixtures which is only my perception of the website and my knowledge with regard to the limits of the MZR powerplant is limited even among the techs we have here.

[desperado-c]

My suggestion:
$$$$ is the motivator for business. Tell them you will pay them DOUBLE the current price for a batch of like 100 or so. Then add this cost into your tuner, once you start selling more of these re-negotiate the price.

People were speculating that Mazda has an agreement preventing them from selling them no matter what the price.

[StuttersC]

The funny thing is, we know what company sells the connectors, they just have very little motivation to help us out at this point, just like you said. But we're still working on it, and we may strike gold. If we do, we'll let everyone know asap.


Jordan

Nice...Did they give a reason?

People were speculating that Mazda has an agreement preventing them from selling them no matter what the price.

That sounds like something Mazda would do. If they won't even help out the teams that race the cars, why not shut down the source of the connectors?

[www.cp-e.com]

My suggestion:
$$$$ is the motivator for business. Tell them you will pay them DOUBLE the current price for a batch of like 100 or so. Then add this cost into your tuner, once you start selling more of these re-negotiate the price.


Hah, you're not kidding, but we only wish it were that easy. We can't even get the company reps on the phone sometimes. We've offered to buy as many as 5000 at a time (about the same as a production cycle for Mazda) with no luck. Either they have no motivation to do business with the aftermarket, or Mazda is keeping them quiet. But your guess is as good as mine right now. But I think I've mentioned before that if this avenue doesn't work out, we have other options. I guess we'll see...


Hey Jordan,

You seem to be very active in this section and I don't mean to cross polinate the community subject matter but I just have a quick question for you regarding your Speed3 campaign which I am pretty well committed to.

Between the CAI, turbo back exhaust, MZR hybrid turbo, FMIC, engine management, etc.

At what point would you recommend considering forged pistons and further engine rebuilding?

It seems like cp-e intends bolt-on operation with no internal mods to support higher boost and leaner fuel mixtures which is only my perception of the website and my knowledge with regard to the limits of the MZR powerplant is limited even among the techs we have here.


I like questions like these (ones with no real "right answer" :D ), and I'll be happy to discuss this in detail with you if you PM me.

Someone just called us the other day to let us know that they threw a rod out the side of their block. This is the first I have heard of anyone blowing up a turbocharged MZR. I have no information about what the guy was doing when it blew up. He's getting it checked out by the dealer, so maybe we'll have more information about it soon. But personally, I'd want a built bottom end for any serious drag racing or track use, regardless of the power levels. But for just farting around on the streets, I think this bottom end is good for around 300-325whp. The pistons are the weak link IMHO.

And you're right in that we typically deal with bolt-on parts and avoid power adders. But we're changing, and we even have plans for a turbo upgrade for the SPEED3/6 that should be released by summer time. (yes)


Jordan

[www.cp-e.com]

Nice...Did they give a reason?



That sounds like something Mazda would do. If they won't even help out the teams that race the cars, why not shut down the source of the connectors?


Nope no reason. They just act like they don't want to do business with us, or anyone else from the aftermarket for that matter :(


Jordan

[StuttersC]

Nope no reason. They just act like they don't want to do business with us, or anyone else from the aftermarket for that matter :(


Jordan

That is really lame.

[MUSOM]

If you hear anything else from the owner that threw that rod, let us know. I'm interested to see if he was abusing the motor, or just had too much whp?

[www.cp-e.com]

That is really lame.


No kidding! Josh actually threatened to fly out to visit the company personally, and now they start taking him seriously (dark)


If you hear anything else from the owner that threw that rod, let us know. I'm interested to see if he was abusing the motor, or just had too much whp?


You bet David. He actually just called us for advice, but if we hear from him again I'll fill you guys in.

I saw your other thread about our exhaust by the way. We're actually looking into offering a quieter muffler for the rear section of the SPEED6 exhaust. It's the same one we're using on the SPEED3 turboback, and we should have sound clips on our web page tomorrow if you want to check it out. If you like the sound better than the resonators, PM me and I'll see if I can get you more info.


Jordan

[StuttersC]

No kidding! Josh actually threatened to fly out to visit the company personally, and now they start taking him seriously (dark)

Jordan


HAHA! Awesome.

[jdub260]

Any more updates on the connectors??

If it has to be done I'm sure that we can pass the hat around and get that plane ticket if it will help. (gun) :D

[www.cp-e.com]

Any more updates on the connectors??

If it has to be done I'm sure that we can pass the hat around and get that plane ticket if it will help. (gun) :D


Actually, Josh made some good progress the other day with one of our reps. It seems they've identified one of the two connectors and may be able to get us a part number. We're keeping our fingers crossed!


Jordan

[4DRHTRD]

Sweet!

[Klip]

Sweet indeed......

Jordan, On a side note, has the muffler issue(choosing a different type) been resolved yet? I have just recieved notification of shipment from RPM for my CP-E DP w/cat & Cat-Back exhaust but I only ordered the 1 muffler option.

From what I gather on the boards, I am fairly certain, I will be calling you for a different solution or additional muffler because of noise/drone issues. Have to excuse me, I am getting older an louder is just not me...........

[desperado-c]

Actually, Josh made some good progress the other day with one of our reps. It seems they've identified one of the two connectors and may be able to get us a part number. We're keeping our fingers crossed!


Jordan

Jordan is this good news for us MS3's or just for the MS6's?

Also, I know you might not want to get into it, but what do you make of the XEDE/Vishnu blowup? http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3007900&postcount=189 and http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpost.php?p=673409&postcount=42. Not the political stuff but the technical stuff. Can you give us some sense of the technical issues involved and how CP-E's solution addresses them? Again, I know it might be too much to ask, but I'm hoping you can help an ECU-mod newb get a handle on what's going on, especially as it relates to the newness of the DISI technology.

[www.cp-e.com]

Jordan is this good news for us MS3's or just for the MS6's?

Also, I know you might not want to get into it, but what do you make of the XEDE/Vishnu blowup? http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3007900&postcount=189 and http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpost.php?p=673409&postcount=42. Not the political stuff but the technical stuff. Can you give us some sense of the technical issues involved and how CP-E's solution addresses them? Again, I know it might be too much to ask, but I'm hoping you can help an ECU-mod newb get a handle on what's going on, especially as it relates to the newness of the DISI technology.


You're right, I really shouldn't get involved in all of that, but I can tell you what Shiv told us last week at the BMW 335i dyno day at AMS, and also why I think our product is superior to the Xede.

According to Shiv, the Procede (the new Xede replacement at Vishnu) has more inputs and outputs, which can be used to monitor or alter sensor signals. It sounded like in order to clear some hurdles on the BMW 335i, he had to use TWO Xedes. Now this doesn't mean that the Xede isn't a great product, it just didn't have what Shiv needed to get the job done, that's all. But Chiptorque is still producing the Xede and I believe vendors on this forum are selling the product to SPEED3 owners.

We're very blessed however, to have a very brilliant electrical engineer in house. He's one of the co-owners of cp-e, and he builds all our piggybacks at our facility in Beltsvile, Maryland. Having the boards designed and built in-house gives us the flexibility to change the design as we please. You see, the Xede is made by Chiptorque, so if one of their customers or distributors wanted to make a revision to the board, Chiptorque (in Australia) would have to make the changes. As you can imagine, Chiptorque probably doesn't want to revise their board since it costs money, and it functions well in many current applications. On the other hand, Lou (our electrical engineer) can change his design as he pleases. His board layouts are very modular, and his next board revision will allow for more inputs and outputs than anyone would ever need.

But regarding the SPEED3, the Xede is able to adjust timing, boost, and air/fuel. In the past, the easiest way to adjust the air/fuel ratio was to lie to the computer about how much air the engine is receiving. So tuners would intercept the mass air sensor voltage output and scale it depending on whether or not they needed more or less fuel. But we think this is the wrong way to alter fuel on a DISI vehicle.

Traditional fuel injected cars have a bevy of injector and mass air sensor options over the stock equipment, so when you max out your MAF on your Chevy Tahoe (or whatever), you can just buy bigger injectors and a bigger MAF. But the SPEED3 (as I'm sure you're well aware) has a much more unique fuel delivery system, and bigger injectors simply aren't an option at this point. So when you max out your mass air sensor voltage (5-volts is the maximum) you're basically stuck unless you can control the injectors directly.

If you want a real-life example, 4DRHTRD has this problem at the moment. He installed a GT3071R turbo on his Speed6 along with a liquid to air intercooler and a turboback exhaust. At this point, the fuel injectors can deliver more fuel, but he's reached the mass air sensor's maximum voltage of about 5-volts. So he contacted us and he's going to try using our piggyback, which has a more creative way of altering fuel so we don't bother with skewing the MAF voltage. As such, we're sending him a piggyback to try and he should have it sometime next week.

The other issue the Xede does not alleviate is the throttle limiations. Mazda openly publicized the fact that this car limits torque in the first three gears to maintain traction under power. They were only being half-honest. It turns out the car limits torque in all gears but overdrive (5th and 6th), so to really unlock the potential of this car, you need to get control over the throttle plate. When you put your foot to the floor, the throttle should open to 100%, but it doesn't. It dances around depending on how much traction you have and how much power you're making. That's why our SPEED6 piggyback won't be sold to SPEED3 owners. Although our piggyback would work fine for the SPEED3 owners (we've even tuned our shop SPEED3 with our piggyback) we'd prefer to wait to release our unit until we have full control over the engine since it's only a partial solution in its current state. In addition to getting control over the throttle plate, Lou intends on controlling the cam phasing mechanism and get full control over the injectors for our 2nd-generation revision. He has already started development on the 2nd board too!

We just installed our first customer SPEED6 piggyback last night, and we're going to schedule a dyno appointment in the very near future to tune the car. If things go well then we'll release the piggyback to everyone with a base tune. And hopefully we'll have the 2nd-gen boards for you SPEED3 guys soon!


Jordan

[desperado-c]

You're right, I really shouldn't get involved in all of that, but I can tell you what Shiv told us last week at the BMW 335i dyno day at AMS, and also why I think our product is superior to the Xede.

According to Shiv, the Procede (the new Xede replacement at Vishnu) has more inputs and outputs, which can be used to monitor or alter sensor signals. It sounded like in order to clear some hurdles on the BMW 335i, he had to use TWO Xedes. .... we'd prefer to wait to release our unit until we have full control over the engine since it's only a partial solution in its current state. In addition to getting control over the throttle plate, Lou intends on controlling the cam phasing mechanism and get full control over the injectors for our 2nd-generation revision. He has already started development on the 2nd board too!

We just installed our first customer SPEED6 piggyback last night, and we're going to schedule a dyno appointment in the very near future to tune the car. If things go well then we'll release the piggyback to everyone with a base tune. And hopefully we'll have the 2nd-gen boards for you SPEED3 guys soon!


Jordan

Thanks! Interesting, Xedes squared can't be cheap, but them 335i guys can probably afford it.

Anyway, kinda good news, bad news for us 3 owners. Good news: Lou is starting work on what will be comprehensive EMS solution for the 3. Bad news: Lou is starting work on what will be comprehensive EMS solution for the 3. Cool with me. I'll look forward to following the experiences of the 6 owners with the 1st gen.

[4DRHTRD]

(dance) (nana) (nana) (nana) (dance)

[Klip]

(band)

[Rainman]

Nice work guys. Thanks for keeping us posted on this.

R

[knowledge007]

Nice work CP-E. One question, might be a dumb question. When I get the 2nd board for my MSP3, will be able to V-to-A with my BOV with no problems? Or would you have to program the board for delivery to vTOa?

[dadasracecar]

The install is NOT PnP and there should be soldering involved. Soldering makes a better connection and there is less chance of a wire coming loose, etc. Also, heat shrink should be used to make the connections more durable. Spare no effort as this is the ECU we're talking about.
As mentioned before, I did it last night with Jordan's help and it, daunting though it may seem, it's really not a big deal. You just have to be absolutely sure that your checking and rechecking your work. The Mazdaspeed6 ECU has four connectors and you have to connect to at least one wire on every connector. Connector 1 (shortest wires) is the toughest but thankfully there is only one soldering point on that wire. It's the first wire connected in the instructions and that doesn't do much for your confidence b/c its a total PITA. After that you mainly work with connector 4 (longest wires) and it goes much more quickly.

I had never soldered before so Jordan gave me a quick instruction and we didn't have much trouble.

Couple of things:
1. The front seat MUST come out. This is nonnegotiable. You will need assistance with maneuvering the seat out of the car.
2. There is crossmember on the floor board right where the middle of your back will be lying. Put a pillow, mat, upside down cookie sheet, etc. to minimize the height of this crossmember. I'm still sore...
3. Total install time was ~3-3.5 hours. Neither Jordan nor I had ever done this so we took our time and were very careful. I'm also including the time it took me to pretty up the ecu wires so that it looked as close to stock as possible. It is necessary to have help. You don't want to try this alone. Even if the help is not experienced, you'll need someone reading the instructions to you, handing you the soldering iron, solder, strippers, tape, heatshrink, etc. Get a good friend and a case of beer for afterward.
4. Because of the number of wires in the ECU, Mazda had to reuse some of the color combinations - sometimes in the same connector. The CPE instruction comes with full color photos and a wiring diagram so you can minimize the chance of error, e.g. the photo will show you that the black/yellow wire you're looking for is next to green, pink, and white/brown wires. It's not difficult to find the right wire but you need to know about this going in.
5. Removing the plastic sheath around each connector's wires will help you trace the correct wire so that you can tap in to it away from the connector itself. This just matters if you're trying to be stealthy.
6. You will need: wire cutters, wire strippers, razor blade, heat shrink, soldering iron, solder, electrical tape, 14 mm socket to get the seat out, and zip ties.

I have the piggyback installed now and the only thing different now is the boost is controlled at 15 psi and the car definitely feels different. There is less hesitation and power delivery is much smoother. It also keeps accelerating well into the 6k range. We haven't done any tuning but I'm psyched to get started. Lou showed me the graphical interface and it's really cool. Admittedly, I've never done this kind of thing before but it looks stupid easy to change lots of stuff. For that reason, I'll let the experts tune my car. I don't want that much power... now.

As for overall impressions of the install, I was VERY apprehensive in the beginning. Snipping that first wire certainly gave me a sinking feeling. After that though it was just follow the instructions. They were straightforward and easy to follow. The work is tedious, cramped, and uncomfortable. It is also certainly doable in a morning or afternoon. As I said, we did it in less than 3.5 hours.

Here are some pix (sorry for the low quality, only had my phone):


EDIT BY JDUB260:
Reason is that links to other forums don't work so I copied the images and added them here.

This shows the 4 Mazda connectors connectors AFTER the install.
http://www.msprotege.com/members/jdub260/1ecu_conn.jpg

This is the guts of the CPE piggyback tuner
http://www.msprotege.com/members/jdub260/2Piggyback_guts.jpg

I ziptied my piggyback in the space under the OBDII port. It's like Mazda left us the space just for this purpose...
http://www.msprotege.com/members/jdub260/3piggyback_installed.jpg

This is a crappy shot of the graphical interface Lou was working with.
http://www.msprotege.com/members/jdub260/4GI_screenshot.jpg

[RevLimitLaunch]

awesome where you put it. lol, i checked that out when i was in my car today, what a perfect slot. i'd like to see some dyno graphs, but im sure you already know that lol. anything else done to your car besides this? is it boosting at a fully consistant 15psi all the way to redline without that stupid power drop off? so many questions i have...but ill keep these for now.

[dadasracecar]

My car is totally stock save for the CPE mount. CPE will do the base map on it.

I've only driven this car four times since the piggyback install and the only thing changed is the boost control set at 15 psi but the difference is REALLY noticeable. The slight lag that was there before is completely gone, the pulls like hell all the way past 6200, and is MUCH more responsive when passing in 5th or 6th. I swear the thing is making more power or at least more useable power. Its also easier to drive easy around town. The torque feels better when letting off the clutch so the jerkiness that we've all had some difficulty with due to the clutch is much better. I have relearn how to drive it. I spent most of my ride home yesterday having to slow back down from 90. It's so much more responsive it just makes me that much more aggressive. I am so excited to have them start tuning this car. I'm now sure that Lou is a genius and Mazda is gonna be calling him to make a full ecu for them in the near future.

[RevLimitLaunch]

awesome that makes me want this damn setup so much more...pnp asap!!!! come on haha.

[atoy74]

Quick question. Will the piggyback throw any CELs?

[dadasracecar]

None so far.

[RevLimitLaunch]

are you running on a base preset tune right now? or just whatever? and since we got it established you hold 15psi consistantly thru the whole rpm without dropping off right? and in every gear? this is one of the biggest concerns for me right now as 1-2 like 11psi, while 2-4 like 4psi, 15-16psi doesnt come til 5-6...

[dadasracecar]

You're getting beyond my understanding. Sorry, still a noob and the learnign curve is pretty steep. The piggyback is all zeros. The only thing different is the boost control loop being much more stable than the factory settings. That's a direct quote from Lou at CPE. The car feels completely different. I'm going out with Lou tomorrow afternoon to do a little road tuning and I'll get more info and understanding then. It suffices to say that this mod is the THE THING TO DO with this car.

[RevLimitLaunch]

do you have a boost gauge? lol, all i really wanna know is if it holds the 15psi you said it was set at, thru every gear perfectly. cuz my 6, like others i hear reduces boost in lower gears.

[MUSOM]

i've got a boost gauge and mine is doing about the same thing. however, i'm getting about 13-14 psi in 1 and 2, 15-17 psi in 3 and above. i hit 18 psi in 3rd through 6th many times, but 17 is about average. (freak)

[MUSOM]

on that note.....i think the turbo would hold 15 easy in 1 and 2 and 17 in 3 and above. If I had a manual boost control, that is what i would set mine at, and would feel comfortable for an everyday driver. I would go 16 psi in first, 17 psi in second, and 18 psi thereafter for a "hard driving/track" advance setting. that's just me though. i'm not doing any mods until after i do my FMIC upgrade. I should get those psi improvements with the CPE FMIC (according to CPE). The turbo should hold 17-18 psi with the 2-3 psi decreased pressure drop post install.(yippy)

[www.cp-e.com]

do you have a boost gauge? lol, all i really wanna know is if it holds the 15psi you said it was set at, thru every gear perfectly. cuz my 6, like others i hear reduces boost in lower gears.


Right now Dadasracecar is just using the boost control, and it's set at 15psi. The difference he's feeling is probably due to the precise boost management. The stock wastegate control is pretty poor in that your boost goes all over the place, from idle to redline. Our boost control on the other hand uses a PID feedback loop to control the wastegate solenoid, as opposed to a straight duty cycle above or below the factory settings. So if the car is capable of making the boost you're requesting, then you'll get it.

From the tests we ran during development, we were able to hold up to 17psi to redline. It does taper *slightly* towards redline as the throttle does affect things slightly, but not even close to the MS3's throttle dance. Whether the turbo is running out of breath, or if the throttle is playing games with us is up in the air, and requires more testing. But to answer yor question, yes, the piggyback will help the car hold any boost pressure you desire, all the way to redline.

I'm actually in South Carolina right now, but when I return home I will post data logs which help illustrate my point. :)


Jordan

[dadasracecar]

I thought I'd post a few more pix of the install. These are higher quality. If you don't know what you're looking for, you'd never see the extra set of wires going to the piggyback. If I have to take it out, it's just cut two zipties. The bypass plug is small and so I could tuck the extra wires around behind the ECU and likely no tech would ever spot it.
102698

102699

102700

102701

Here's a closeup of the ecu connectors that CPE needs for a PnP setup.
102702

[RevLimitLaunch]

damn i want it pnp so bad lol...i drive my car around knowing that its possible i could have a lot more power with a better power curve, and it kills me. (blowup)

[www.cp-e.com]

I thought I'd post a few more pix of the install. These are higher quality. If you don't know what you're looking for, you'd never see the extra set of wires going to the piggyback. If I have to take it out, it's just cut two zipties. The bypass plug is small and so I could tuck the extra wires around behind the ECU and likely no tech would ever spot it.
102698

102699

102700

102701

Here's a closeup of the ecu connectors that CPE needs for a PnP setup.
102702



Jason, thanks so much for posting high quality pictures! Now you can really see how great your installation looks!


Jordan

[jbspeed6]

Right now Dadasracecar is just using the boost control, and it's set at 15psi. The difference he's feeling is probably due to the precise boost management. The stock wastegate control is pretty poor in that your boost goes all over the place, from idle to redline. Our boost control on the other hand uses a PID feedback loop to control the wastegate solenoid, as opposed to a straight duty cycle above or below the factory settings. So if the car is capable of making the boost you're requesting, then you'll get it.

From the tests we ran during development, we were able to hold up to 17psi to redline. It does taper *slightly* towards redline as the throttle does affect things slightly, but not even close to the MS3's throttle dance. Whether the turbo is running out of breath, or if the throttle is playing games with us is up in the air, and requires more testing. But to answer yor question, yes, the piggyback will help the car hold any boost pressure you desire, all the way to redline.

I'm actually in South Carolina right now, but when I return home I will post data logs which help illustrate my point. :)


Jordan

Damn, if I had known you were coming down to SC I would have gotten you to bring one of your piggybacks;) , jk. If you don't mind me asking, what part of S.C. are you visiting? Sorry for the OT post.

[www.cp-e.com]

Damn, if I had known you were coming down to SC I would have gotten you to bring one of your piggybacks;) , jk. If you don't mind me asking, what part of S.C. are you visiting? Sorry for the OT post.


Buddy, if I could I would! Unfortunately all of the built piggybacks have been spoken for, and they're reserved for our beta testers. We're still trying to get some dyno time for dadasracecar, but things are pretty crazy at the shop right now. I'll be sure to update everyone as soon as we get him some dyno time.

My folks are retiring to Folly Beach, and I'm helping them get their electronics set up here (computer, t.v., stereo, fax, wireless internet, etc.). I've been absolutely blown away by how beautiful the area is, and the people couldn't be nicer. I've traveled all around the country before, and I've never met such friendly people. Now, I don't wanna go back to Maryland (rofl2)


Jordan

[skylinemonster]

Buddy, if I could I would! Unfortunately all of the built piggybacks have been spoken for, and they're reserved for our beta testers. We're still trying to get some dyno time for dadasracecar, but things are pretty crazy at the shop right now. I'll be sure to update everyone as soon as we get him some dyno time.

My folks are retiring to Folly Beach, and I'm helping them get their electronics set up here (computer, t.v., stereo, fax, wireless internet, etc.). I've been absolutely blown away by how beautiful the area is, and the people couldn't be nicer. I've traveled all around the country before, and I've never met such friendly people. Now, I don't wanna go back to Maryland (rofl2)


Jordan

Hey Jordan, just looking for a status update on the release of this piggyback. It's been a week since the last post by you in this thread. Josh has had my CC info for some time as I should be one of the first to receive this. I am becoming quite anxious and would like to know a more precise time frame on the release of this. Thanks.

[Karma_hunden]

this wait is stressing me out lol i grew a lump on my neck!

when do they estimate the release of the CP-E EMS?

[MUSOM]

I'm not speaking on behalf of anyone, but I'd say there is a good chance of the EMS coming out this week. I feel your anxiety. I can't wait either. And hell.....what's the point in getting an EMS without an intercooler. (hump)

[trees]

Yesterday CP-E said it would be released sometime next week. (drive2)

[www.cp-e.com]

Yesterday CP-E said it would be released sometime next week. (drive2)


Yup, we're shooting for next week (evil)


Jordan

[MUSOM]

yea...got my days confused....sure it what I meant to say. haha!

[jdub260]

Yup, we're shooting for next week (evil)


Jordan

I assume that is for the "Wire In" model.

Do you have any more updates on the "Plug-N-Play" model??

[Booster]

Yup, we're shooting for next week (evil)


Jordan

Hi! this is great.

While I am so excited that will not wait for the PnP unit; Just to know when the PnP units will be avaible?

Anyway expect my order next week.

So excited! Wow!

[www.cp-e.com]

I assume that is for the "Wire In" model.

Do you have any more updates on the "Plug-N-Play" model??


Hi! this is great.

While I am so excited that will not wait for the PnP unit; Just to know when the PnP units will be avaible?

Anyway expect my order next week.

So excited! Wow!


You know, we thought all the piggyback vendors were going through the same connector distributor, but it looks like Ken from Protege Garage beat us to the punch. We've been trying to reach our connector rep, but he recently fell ill and had to undergo emergency open heart surgery. So if everyone is going through the same distributor, then we may have access to connectors too, but we have to wait for our contact to return to work to get the full scoop.

We're all really excited to release this piggyback because we feel it will really help wake the car up. But, I think the best feature is the PID feedback boost control. The fact that you can set a boost pressure, and the Standback will adjust the wastegate until you hit that pressure is awesome. No more dangerous 20+psi boost spikes, and no more tweaking due to environmental variances.

We're also very proud of, and strongly recommend our method of fuel control over MAF fuel control for a couple very important reasons. We recently learned that the fuel system isn't limited by the fuel injectors (ie. maxxing out the injector duty cycle), but it's limited by the high pressure fuel pump of all things!

Now, when you try to add fuel through the MAF, you're essntially telling the car to stretch its injector pulse-width to counter a lean condition. When you do this, volumetric fuel flow increases, and the high pressure pump needs to maintain the same rail pressure with a greater taxation on flow. What happens is the high pressure pump can't maintain the pressure and flow required, and fuel flow tapers off as the pulse-width increases (fuel needs pressure to flow). This is bad because the obvious solution is to, well, increase the MAF voltage some more, which will again increase the pulse-width. But as you know, if there isn't pressure, then there isn't fuel flow, and this just creates a vicious cycle.

Secondly, if you're adjusting fuel through the MAF, then you're creating an adjustment window that's limited by a 5-volt sensor. We've seen bolt-on cars run as high as 4.5-volt MAF signals, which only leaves less then 0.5-volts to add fuel with. Our method of fuel control has none of these limitations, since we don't use the MAF OR MAP to add fuel. We found a very unique way to add fuel without creating an arbitrary operation window for ourselves.

I think everyone is going to be taken aback by all of the capabilities you get for just $635. Even better yet (and I kid you not on this) we have other "locked" functions on the board that we'll unlock later once the software is fully written. I've been told not to mention the specifics, but we'll be sharing the details about these functions very soon.

Things are still looking good for a release next week. When we announce the release, we'll include a full writeup of all the Standback's capabilities so you don't need to go digging through 20+ page threads for all the info. It will all be organized so you can effectively compare out unit to other piggybacks. And thanks for everyone's patience through this long project!!


Jordan (cool)

[Gandalf]

Great to hear Jordan - can you tell me of you have managed to completely eliminate fuel cut issues also? I know there has always been some speculation on what actually causes the fuel cut, but I also seem to remember a post quite a while back explaining you all had figured it out. Thanks for all the hard work, the connector thing seems promising, but I'm not going to hold my breath:)

[Karma_hunden]

will we be able to hold boost/shift till redline!?!?!? How much boost can be manage?

...im starting to like this (shady)

[www.cp-e.com]

Great to hear Jordan - can you tell me of you have managed to completely eliminate fuel cut issues also? I know there has always been some speculation on what actually causes the fuel cut, but I also seem to remember a post quite a while back explaining you all had figured it out. Thanks for all the hard work, the connector thing seems promising, but I'm not going to hold my breath:)


Yes we have, but let me explain about the whole fuel cut issue. We've found that the "fuel cut" is induced by what the ECU interprets as a sensor anomaly. People thought the fuel cuts were just boost related, but we're finding that there's more to it. We "confused" various sensors while testing our piggyback and could induce a fuel cut through many of them. But the two most common ways to induce a fuel cut is too much boost, or too much fuel trim correction.

Your fuel trims are a reflection of the ECU's efforts to get the air/fuel mixture back where it wants it to be. It uses a table to find a recommended pulse-width that will yield a desired air/fuel ratio according to the engine load and MAF voltage. So anytime you change your MAF voltage, you're also changing where the ECU looks in this table. That means as you artificially increase the MAF voltage from the actual reading, the fuel trims get increasingly worse. When the ECU reaches its adjustment limits, it can no longer add or remove fuel, so it shuts off the injectors in order to save the engine. We can all thank Mazda for this (bird)

We believe that this is why we couldn't add more than 10% fuel to the car through the mass air meter. We were exceeding that fuel trim adjustment window and were triggering a fuel cut. This is also just another reason why we went to another method of fuel control. We want to be able to add fuel (and hence change the air/fuel ratio) without changing where the ECU is looking in its reference tables. Anytime you change the operating characteristics of your engine (i.e. adding performance parts), you're going to change your fueling conditions. But by leaving the MAF alone, we have more room to play without causing problems.

So the short answer is yes, our Standback has the ability to eliminate a fuel cut. But it really depends on what it's caused by. If it's fuel trim related, and is due to a poorly engineered MAF housing for instance, then the answer is maybe. It really depends on how bad the condition is and how much time and patience you have. But if you're experiencing a fuel cut from too much boost, then the answer is most definitely yes.


Jordan

[www.cp-e.com]

will we be able to hold boost/shift till redline!?!?!? How much boost can be manage?

...im starting to like this (shady)


Yup, boost is being held to redline. You type in a value, and if the turbo can handle it, the wastegate solenoid will be manipulated until produces the boost pressure you're looking for.

How much can we manage? That's a tough (and loaded) question, but in our opinion, anything over 17psi (measured at the manifold) isn't a great idea. Although, your question is totally subject to opinion, so someone may chime in with a different idea of what the maximum boost the turbo is capable of. But we've run as high as 19 pounds, but we feel the turbo is so far out of its efficiency range that its just blowing hot air at that point.


Jordan

[LBV]

Great news, but are we gonna need to upgrade the fuel pump?

[www.cp-e.com]

Great news, but are we gonna need to upgrade the fuel pump?


Probably not. If you want more fuel than the high pressure pump can handle, in my opinion the easiest solution is to add secondary port fuel injectors.


Jordan

[RevLimitLaunch]

have you been able to control the e-throttle to open up more, and all the way too redline? i wasn't sure if this pertained to the full boost to redline but better off asking i guess

[Booster]

Yup, boost is being held to redline. You type in a value, and if the turbo can handle it, the wastegate solenoid will be manipulated until produces the boost pressure you're looking for.

How much can we manage? That's a tough (and loaded) question, but in our opinion, anything over 17psi (measured at the manifold) isn't a great idea. Although, your question is totally subject to opinion, so someone may chime in with a different idea of what the maximum boost the turbo is capable of. But we've run as high as 19 pounds, but we feel the turbo is so far out of its efficiency range that its just blowing hot air at that point.


Jordan

Hi!

I am ordering your EMS as soon as is avaible!

now the questions.

1) I have a ATP GT7031R turbo upgrade, worked to fit CPE DP

2) CPE catted down pipe and Magnaflow exhaust(3" custom middle section)

3) No CAI but a K&N in box replacement filter.( I am old for the noise)

What is a maximun-save boost that I can use, with your EMS and upgrades I have? Keeping in mind that it has factory internals.

Also I am planing in adding your future manifold and FMIC or TMIC.


Also I have the ATP fuel cut killer module installed, I asume that I will have to remove it when I install your EMS?

Let me know please.

JC

[www.cp-e.com]

have you been able to control the e-throttle to open up more, and all the way too redline? i wasn't sure if this pertained to the full boost to redline but better off asking i guess


I'll be honest, there is some semblance of boost taper at redline, but it is very slight. Nothing like that of the SPEED3. We plan to fix this issue with our next generation piggyback but we're still months away from having anything to show you guys. But our boost control is so precise that one of our first beta testers said the car felt stronger just using our boost control strategy at stock boost levels.


Hi!

I am ordering your EMS as soon as is avaible!

now the questions.

1) I have a ATP GT7031R turbo upgrade, worked to fit CPE DP

2) CPE catted down pipe and Magnaflow exhaust(3" custom middle section)

3) No CAI but a K&N in box replacement filter.( I am old for the noise)

What is a maximun-save boost that I can use, with your EMS and upgrades I have? Keeping in mind that it has factory internals.

Also I am planing in adding your future manifold and FMIC or TMIC.


Also I have the ATP fuel cut killer module installed, I asume that I will have to remove it when I install your EMS?

Let me know please.

JC


Hey JC, I would stick to ATP's recommendation of 22psi for that turbo. This will keep it well within its efficiency range, you should have plenty of fuel, and the shortblock should hold up okay under those power levels. If this is a daily driver, or if you can't afford to buy a new engine, I wouldn't exceed 22psi until more people have explored the limits of this engine. But this is just my opinion :D

As far as the boost cut killer, I would recommend removing it because it may mess with our piggybacks boost control. It was great lying to the factory ECU about things, but that what our piggyback's job is. So keeping the boost cut killer on there may screw with our unit, and the piggyback has an electronic equivalent of the boost cut killer anyway, so keeping it on the car would be redundant. Hope this helps!


Jordan

[LBV]

Jordan - Are there any changes to part-throttle situations (where MOST of my driving is done) or are all of the changes done to open loop WOT situations?

[dadasracecar]

I'm still running all zero's but with the boost set to 15 psi on the piggyback (we're still having scheduling issues Lou, Jordan, and myself) and the car is completely different and most noticeable at part throttle driving. It's so much more responsive. I recently went back to the bypass plug for a drive home and felt like the car had so much lag when first pushing the accelerator. I have nothing but absolute praise for the CPE piggyback and we haven't even tuned yet.

[LBV]

the car is completely different and most noticeable at part throttle driving. It's so much more responsive.

Just what I wanna hear!

Get that PnP and I'm a customer!! (drive2)

[atoy74]

Just what I wanna hear!

Get that PnP and I'm a customer!! (drive2)


I second that! PNP and I'm in with the quickness.

[ms6denver]

I third that... I've had my checkbook sitting on the counter just waiting for PnP.(drive2)

[Klip]

Same here....................PnP and you have another buyer. Thanks CP-E

[Karma_hunden]

Just a little update for yall. MS6Mike/Michael got his yesterday, he will be installing it today in the morning, should give you feedback on it in a while.



its go time...(drive2)

[flyrevs]

I third that... I've had my checkbook sitting on the counter just waiting for PnP.(drive2)DITTO!!!!! Add me to the list of buyers - I'm definitely buying one !!!!! I can't wait for this for the Speed3 - CP-E THANKS for your hard work on developing this product!!!!!!!!!!

[MS6mike]

Today i connected the laptop to the STANDBACK, I switched the boost from 15 to 17 psi. The boost holds to 6200RPM and then goes to 14 psi, this product is great and if i can install it anybody can. tomorrow i will be going to the track my last time was 13.7 at 99MPH. the program is so easy to use! i will be tunning once i get my catback and FMIC! they will be in shortly. my current mods are CPE CAI, CPE cattless dP, SU rear motor mount, autoEXE springs, autometer gauge, greedy turbo timer. RX8 wheels, and CPE standback EMS!!!!! more to come.

[M6GR8]

Sounds good. How did the hard wire part of the job go? Is it as daunting as it seems to be? I assume you did the adjustment on the boost only, nothing else, right?

[MS6mike]

yes i only adjust the boost the wireing s so easy with the instructions porvided, the car feels better al way around is more responsive andd it just drives better overall!

[atoy74]

Any news? I remember reading somewhere that CPE was hoping to have the Standback up for sale by today.

Also, any idea when we'll see some dyno results?

[www.cp-e.com]

Any news? I remember reading somewhere that CPE was hoping to have the Standback up for sale by today.

Also, any idea when we'll see some dyno results?


We're working on dyno results, but we've been having shceduling conflicts lately. We need three particular people to be at the dyno, and getting everyone there at an agreed time has been a pain. But our tester went on a business trip, and we've agreed to do the dyno when he returns. So we should have some numbers for everyone soon.

We're also ready to release the piggyback, but we're finishing the final touches on the html. We need to get everything up on our website so people can order it. Once we do I'll post here and let everyone know that they're available. So really, we just need a few days to get everything in order.

Stay tuned! (2thumbs)


Jordan


BTW: We designed, prototyped, and produce all our Standbacks in house, so I thought some here might find it interesting to see how we (four guys) plan on producing hundreds of piggybacks. This video was taken the other night during a Standback production run:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjxh5VX30kg

We use this machine called a pick-n-place, which was fully restored and programmed by our electrical engineer. You place the bare electrical boards on the work surface, hit "go," and the machine starts placing all the board components. We later transfer the boards to an oven which activates the solder paste. It's a pretty trick system!

[Karma_hunden]

nice.

[EE-Geek]

BTW: We designed, prototyped, and produce all our Standbacks in house, so I thought some here might find it interesting to see how we (four guys) plan on producing hundreds of piggybacks. This video was taken the other night during a Standback production run:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjxh5VX30kg

We use this machine called a pick-n-place, which was fully restored and programmed by our electrical engineer. You place the bare electrical boards on the work surface, hit "go," and the machine starts placing all the board components. We later transfer the boards to an oven which activates the solder paste. It's a pretty trick system!

Thanks for the vid clip, I've seen a few of those machines before. For how slow it moves, depending on how many parts are on the board, it could take quite a while to make the hundreds of them you are planning on producing!

The moment I thought this something else occurred to me... Seeing as half of the fun we have is the tweaking and upgrading (not just driving a modded car), why not provide another way to offer this? I'd love to buy this when it finally comes out but I know $700 will prevent me for at least a little while; it'd be great if you made this available as a kit we could assemble ourselves for a bit less $$$. This may come across as a bit bizarre but I probably would enjoy building and installing this more than I would enjoy installing a ready-made device. This may be because I'm a "double 'E' " but, if the board isn't too complex, there may be a market for something like that.

I guess not everyone has a hot-air soldering iron for surface mount devices but I figure you made it surface mount for automation and not for size constraints. A through hole board might be possible then?

(Queque the laughing and pointing at the EE Geek)

Oh, and you're not looking for test engineers are you :) :) ?

[ianknight]

so nice to know that a company (cp-e) is actually focused and dedicated to the MS6 community. i cant wait to place an order.

[www.cp-e.com]

Thanks for the vid clip, I've seen a few of those machines before. For how slow it moves, depending on how many parts are on the board, it could take quite a while to make the hundreds of them you are planning on producing!

The moment I thought this something else occurred to me... Seeing as half of the fun we have is the tweaking and upgrading (not just driving a modded car), why not provide another way to offer this? I'd love to buy this when it finally comes out but I know $700 will prevent me for at least a little while; it'd be great if you made this available as a kit we could assemble ourselves for a bit less $$$. This may come across as a bit bizarre but I probably would enjoy building and installing this more than I would enjoy installing a ready-made device. This may be because I'm a "double 'E' " but, if the board isn't too complex, there may be a market for something like that.

I guess not everyone has a hot-air soldering iron for surface mount devices but I figure you made it surface mount for automation and not for size constraints. A through hole board might be possible then?

(Queque the laughing and pointing at the EE Geek)

Oh, and you're not looking for test engineers are you :) :) ?


Actually, very astute observations :cool:

We actually just got the machine up and running a few weeks ago, so we still have it on its slowest setting. It can go faster, but it puts premature wear on the machine and volume is low at the moment, so we keep the speed down. When production ramps up, we'll abuse the machine a little more, hah.

I spoke with our EE today and presented him with your question. First off, he was really pleased to see another EE taking interest in our products! He said he would consider sending the parts to people as a DIY kit, but there are two hurdles that I should mention. First, one of the processors we use has hundres of pins, and to properly align the chip on the board by hand, you would need a microscope and a lot of patience. You may have both, but I wanted to mention it anyway.

The deal breaker was that if one of our customers assembles the board incorrectly and it fries the ECU, then they may come back to us and blame the problem on our design. Our EE made a little test rig which verifies the operation of all the boards before they go out. If we could offer a similar device to our customers so that they may try the board on a test rig before they plug it into their cars, then your suggestion may be possible. But right now I think we're going to stick with our current plan. But I like your idea, and I'm going to brign it up again to the guys down the line.

And as far as being a test engineer, we'd invite you down here if you didn't live across the country from us! :D


so nice to know that a company (cp-e) is actually focused and dedicated to the MS6 community. i cant wait to place an order.


Very soon! I'm confident that we'll have the Standback up on the website this week. I'm actually writing the product description between forum postings :)


Jordan

[LBV]

Oh gooody!!

[OfourTHREEfive]

Thanks for the vid clip, I've seen a few of those machines before. For how slow it moves, depending on how many parts are on the board, it could take quite a while to make the hundreds of them you are planning on producing!

The moment I thought this something else occurred to me... Seeing as half of the fun we have is the tweaking and upgrading (not just driving a modded car), why not provide another way to offer this? I'd love to buy this when it finally comes out but I know $700 will prevent me for at least a little while; it'd be great if you made this available as a kit we could assemble ourselves for a bit less $$$. This may come across as a bit bizarre but I probably would enjoy building and installing this more than I would enjoy installing a ready-made device. This may be because I'm a "double 'E' " but, if the board isn't too complex, there may be a market for something like that.

I guess not everyone has a hot-air soldering iron for surface mount devices but I figure you made it surface mount for automation and not for size constraints. A through hole board might be possible then?

(Queque the laughing and pointing at the EE Geek)

Oh, and you're not looking for test engineers are you :) :) ?
Lol, im not sure theres too many people that can do that. Ten points for you though (naughty)

I know your not supposed to list the details as of now, but will this piggyback include a 2-step launch control? Thanks.

Also, what about timing? I dont know if the ign timing is a concern on this car and knock is a problem, but did you run into any problems when testing?

[Hate]

Staying tuned...

[RevLimitLaunch]

will the cpe tuner read the wideband afr that comes stock on the ms6? and how will it be read and diagnosed?


ps. sorry if this is a double post of someone elses, but i didn't see anyone else post this.

[www.cp-e.com]

will the cpe tuner read the wideband afr that comes stock on the ms6? and how will it be read and diagnosed?


ps. sorry if this is a double post of someone elses, but i didn't see anyone else post this.


Unfortunately it can't, and I'm sorry to say that I doubt any tuner in the near future will be able to either. I, like many others, were under the assumption that you could just tap a wire on the WBO2, sense a voltage, and convert the signal to indicate an air/fuel ratio. The problem is that unlike narrowband O2's, wideband O2's use current to indicate the air/fuel ratio. You measure current because the sensor is basically a narrowband O2 with an ion pump attached to it. As oxygen in the mixture increases, the current going to the ion pump decreases, and the opposite is true for a rich mixture.

This is a problem because you can't sense the current within a circuit without disrupting the circuit itself. In other words, the feedback loop attached to the ion pump would be skewed, and the readings would no longer be valid once you start altering the circuit. So there is a real hurdle there.

Secondly, even if you're slick enough to sense the current to the ion pump without disrupting the circuit, you still need to make sense of the output, and how the feedback loop is controlling the pump. One may expect the sensor output with respect to air/fuel ratio to be linear, but that's almost never the case. And the signal is also probably pulse-width modulated, which makes the output even more confusing.

So it is possible, but the task isn't striaghtforward by any means. You're much better of just buying an aftermarket wideband while we try to make more sense of this car. Since our Standback will only accept sensor signals from our wideband (which is unfortauntely unavailable at the moment) we'll be offering an analog hub which will accept signals from any analog sensor. The neat thing is that it'll integrate the datalogs into one file. But you can go crazy and get sensors to log things like suspension travel, acceleration, exhaust gas temperature, the uses are endless, which makes the hub a pretty neat addition.



Jordan

[ianknight]

When can we be expecting this to be out? very anxious

[RevLimitLaunch]

well thanks for clarifying that. having an egt reading though would be an awesome help for tuning though either way.

[www.cp-e.com]

When can we be expecting this to be out? very anxious


It should be any day now. We're trying to get a few units built before we release the tuner officially so the wait once people order isn't as long.


well thanks for clarifying that. having an egt reading though would be an awesome help for tuning though either way.


Sure thing! Yeah, the Standback is great for the casual user, but if you're really into getting everything out of your car, the added analog hub is a great addition. If you have the sensor, then it'll log just about anything you can dream up.


Jordan

[RevLimitLaunch]

Sure thing! Yeah, the Standback is great for the casual user, but if you're really into getting everything out of your car, the added analog hub is a great addition. If you have the sensor, then it'll log just about anything you can dream up.

awesome awesome, i wont ask when it'll be released lol, but will it pnp to the cpe piggyback? and how much you think about, rough?

[www.cp-e.com]

awesome awesome, i wont ask when it'll be released lol, but will it pnp to the cpe piggyback? and how much you think about, rough?


Yep, it will plug directly into the Standback, and it'll cost somewhere between $100 and $200 bucks :)


Jordan

[RevLimitLaunch]

sounds like an addition ill def be getting to an otherwise already astounding sounding module.

it'll jus tap into existing sensors correct? and im guessing for egt it won't attach to o2 sensor, but rather a probe you'd need to get?

[www.cp-e.com]

sounds like an addition ill def be getting to an otherwise already astounding sounding module.

it'll jus tap into existing sensors correct? and im guessing for egt it won't attach to o2 sensor, but rather a probe you'd need to get?


Yup, you've got the right idea. Basically, if there's a sensor on the car that uses an analog signal then you can hook it up and log the output. So if you wanted to measure EGT for instance, you need to buy a probe, install it, and hook the leads up to our hub. Then you can datalog the EGT's output signal just like the other stock sensors that the Standback already monitors.


Jordan

[RevLimitLaunch]

sick, now ill add for something like the 5th time to get on that pnp business lol...i want it more than ever.

[EE-Geek]

Did the assembler break? :) just kidding.

Even some descriptions and docs on your webpage would be nice to have just to get familiar with installation, etc.

[VinnieBeachbum]

+1

[InlineTwin]

Thanks for the vid clip, I've seen a few of those machines before. For how slow it moves, depending on how many parts are on the board, it could take quite a while to make the hundreds of them you are planning on producing!

The moment I thought this something else occurred to me... Seeing as half of the fun we have is the tweaking and upgrading (not just driving a modded car), why not provide another way to offer this? I'd love to buy this when it finally comes out but I know $700 will prevent me for at least a little while; it'd be great if you made this available as a kit we could assemble ourselves for a bit less $$$. This may come across as a bit bizarre but I probably would enjoy building and installing this more than I would enjoy installing a ready-made device. This may be because I'm a "double 'E' " but, if the board isn't too complex, there may be a market for something like that.

I guess not everyone has a hot-air soldering iron for surface mount devices but I figure you made it surface mount for automation and not for size constraints. A through hole board might be possible then?

(Queque the laughing and pointing at the EE Geek)

Oh, and you're not looking for test engineers are you :) :) ?

I would be interested in building the board from a kit as well, but it would really depend on the discount. It probably costs CPE less to build it than I think it is worth in time spent on assembly, but I would be interested in any case. I've designed and built 4-axis cnc machines for foam cutting and the boards I've built had 700+ pinouts with a 44 pin microprocessor. I did not find it hard to do the assembly and I am just an aerospace engineer! (Ha, we all know AE's are way cooler than EE's!) I would just lay a piece of solder across the pins and run the iron over it. Solder flows right into the joints. I think it would be easier for the less experienced to do surface mount than through hole.

CPE would have a harder time with validating the components functionallity before sodering as it is very possible damage may occur to what is likely a sensitive microprocessor chip would be due to soldering or humidity changes. How can they control this when it is assembled? Most microchips have a limited shelf life before soldering because of humidity. This would also be a limiting factor.

[www.cp-e.com]

Did the assembler break? :) just kidding.

Even some descriptions and docs on your webpage would be nice to have just to get familiar with installation, etc.


We're working on it. Our webpage has been seriously neglected lately since we've been so busy with production. But we plan to host several documents that will explain in detail, the features of several of our products. We work very hard on some product details that aren't exactly flaunted (and should be!), and we'd like to change that. Things like our machined MAF housings in our cold air kits, or details behind our upcoming intercooler kit are two good examples of this. We just need to find some time to get it done! :)


I would be interested in building the board from a kit as well, but it would really depend on the discount. It probably costs CPE less to build it than I think it is worth in time spent on assembly, but I would be interested in any case. I've designed and built 4-axis cnc machines for foam cutting and the boards I've built had 700+ pinouts with a 44 pin microprocessor. I did not find it hard to do the assembly and I am just an aerospace engineer! (Ha, we all know AE's are way cooler than EE's!) I would just lay a piece of solder across the pins and run the iron over it. Solder flows right into the joints. I think it would be easier for the less experienced to do surface mount than through hole.

CPE would have a harder time with validating the components functionallity before sodering as it is very possible damage may occur to what is likely a sensitive microprocessor chip would be due to soldering or humidity changes. How can they control this when it is assembled? Most microchips have a limited shelf life before soldering because of humidity. This would also be a limiting factor.


You're echoing many of the things our electrical engineer (Lou) told me when I asked him about DIY Standback kits. We all think it's a pretty cool idea, and we're thrilled that there are people out there as 'techie' as we are, but it really isn't in our best interest, and maybe not even our end users best interest either, partially for the arguments you have voiced. But what it came down to is quality control. Since people wil be installing this product into a $25k car, we need to be sure that everything is in working order before we send out our kits. That's why Lou took the time to make another board which basically simulates the MZR in the lab. So whever we complete a Standback, he hooks it up to the engine simulator and verifies its functionality of the unit before it gets shipped. Now if a wire were installed incorrectly, we'd know immediately and lose nothing, whereas the end user may fry either the Standback, or even your ECU. So we're really trying to proect ourselves and our customers.

And regarding the official release of the unit, we've been sending out units that we still consider to be a beta version to everyone who pre-ordered a Standback. Once we fill those orders, get a little feedback from them, and start stocking final versions, then we'll put it up on our website for everyone to order. I think as of today, we have about 15 Standbacks shipped, and we're waiting for dyno results from several people.


Jordan

[MS6mike]

hey jordan any news on the FMIC ?

[www.cp-e.com]

hey jordan any news on the FMIC ?


Should be going to the powder coater this week (headbang)


Jordan

[EE-Geek]

Getting dyno results back from the 15 beta Standbacks you shipped out? Found any issues that will delay the launch? Any good morsels of info for those of us wanting to know when it'll be released?

[MS6mike]

he actually didget one! it was at 276awhp and 300ft tq at 16psi! if i am not mistaken!

[EE-Geek]

sweet! Is that stock otherwise? It would be nice to get numbers for the Standback on stock, CAI, CAI + DP, DP + catback, etc.

I wish there was a release date. That would be so much better than checking their page and the forum multiple times a day. I feel like I'm OCD. Oh right, I am...

[atoy74]

he actually didget one! it was at 276awhp and 300ft tq at 16psi! if i am not mistaken!

WOW, I like that. Did he post this on another thread? I'd love to see it.

[MUSOM]

I might be able to help out with the dyno results. I've currently got CAI, DP, and full exhaust (all CPE). I'll be doing a pre-dyno with my current mods, and then a dyno with the addition of the FMIC and EMS. Maybe that will help some. I should be doing in within the next couple of weeks. Just waiting on the release.(alright)




sweet! Is that stock otherwise? It would be nice to get numbers for the Standback on stock, CAI, CAI + DP, DP + catback, etc.

I wish there was a release date. That would be so much better than checking their page and the forum multiple times a day. I feel like I'm OCD. Oh right, I am...

[www.cp-e.com]

sweet! Is that stock otherwise? It would be nice to get numbers for the Standback on stock, CAI, CAI + DP, DP + catback, etc.

I wish there was a release date. That would be so much better than checking their page and the forum multiple times a day. I feel like I'm OCD. Oh right, I am...


We're working on getting more dyno numbers, but please keep in mind that we don't have a dyno within our facility, so any time we dyno a car we're paying for the time just like any other customer. And dynoing all of those combinations would be expensive! But we're slowly getting some numbers from customers and we're working on getting some stock-tuned numbers as well.

The guy who made 272whp and 300lbft. (a 32whp and 40lbft. gain over untuned) had an AEM cai (along with a nasty fuel cut), cp-e downpipe, and cp-e catback exhaust. The tuner not only added a great deal of power, but he was also able to eliminate the fuel cut that the intake was causing. We asked for dyno graphs, but we have yet to receive them.

And you can buy the Standback now, but we're still calling them beta units and as such they're not being sold on our website. Once we're confident that we've worked out all of the bugs, then we'll start officially releasing it. But if you were to buy a beta unit and something needed to be changed, then you send the unit back, we'll make the necessary adjustments, and send the unit right back to you. It's up to you if that's enough to make you wait for the final version or not. So far we found and rectified one issue, and only one person was affected by it so far.


I might be able to help out with the dyno results. I've currently got CAI, DP, and full exhaust (all CPE). I'll be doing a pre-dyno with my current mods, and then a dyno with the addition of the FMIC and EMS. Maybe that will help some. I should be doing in within the next couple of weeks. Just waiting on the release.(alright)


You're the man (cabpatch)

Just wanted to let you know that we didn't quite get the FMIC to the powdercoater today :( . We weren't able to finish the BOV flanges in time, but that's literally the last piece that needs to be addressed. So you'll hear this for the very last time: "It'll be done next week." :D

We also finished a Standback installation yesterday on a customer's car and he's at the dyno today to get some numbers. His combination is a cp-e XCel intake, cp-e downpipe, and cp-e catback. As soon as we get the numbers/graphs, I'll post them up here.


Jordan

[MS6mike]

thanx jordan for all the updates! good luck with the rest!

[flyrevs]

Quote "The guy who made 272whp and 300lbft. (a 32whp and 40lbft. gain over untuned) had an AEM cai (along with a nasty fuel cut), cp-e downpipe, and cp-e catback exhaust. The tuner not only added a great deal of power, but he was also able to eliminate the fuel cut that the intake was causing. We asked for dyno graphs, but we have yet to receive them."

This does not seem right - the cp-e downpipe, and cp-e catback exhaust alone are advertized at " The best part is when the catback is paired with our upcoming downpipe, one can expect on the order of 30hp and 40lbft of torque to the wheels!"
So the cp-e downpipe, and cp-e catback exhaust add 30hp and 40ftlb , add a CAI and standback and get the same ? How did the tuner add power? Looks like bad math to me. I must be missing something.

Can someone explain this? Thanks

[www.cp-e.com]

Quote "The guy who made 272whp and 300lbft. (a 32whp and 40lbft. gain over untuned) had an AEM cai (along with a nasty fuel cut), cp-e downpipe, and cp-e catback exhaust. The tuner not only added a great deal of power, but he was also able to eliminate the fuel cut that the intake was causing. We asked for dyno graphs, but we have yet to receive them."

This does not seem right - the cp-e downpipe, and cp-e catback exhaust alone are advertized at " The best part is when the catback is paired with our upcoming downpipe, one can expect on the order of 30hp and 40lbft of torque to the wheels!"
So the cp-e downpipe, and cp-e catback exhaust add 30hp and 40ftlb , add a CAI and standback and get the same ? How did the tuner add power? Looks like bad math to me. I must be missing something.

Can someone explain this? Thanks


Well first off, I think you may be looking at the dyno results for our SPEED3 equipment, whereas these numbers were generated by a SPEED6. I'm not sure if that's confusing you? I'm just not sure which part you're questioning? Are you querstioning the total power the customer was making, or the gains from the Standback?

The car came in with the turbo back and intake installed, AND THEN they tuned the car. With just his bolt-ons and no tune, the customer made 240whp/260lbft. Altered Atmosphere's owner and tuner, Mike Mahaffey, told us that the car had a nasty fuel cut and was running extraordinarily lean because of the AEM intake. After adding some fuel, upping boost to a modest 16psi, and pulling a degree of timing up top, they made 272/300. This was a conservative map however, since a little more boost and timing (below the knock threshold of course) could make a significant difference.

Is that clearer? If not, explain where the confusion lies and I'll do my best to clear things up.


Jordan

[flyrevs]

Well first off, I think you may be looking at the dyno results for our SPEED3 equipment, whereas these numbers were generated by a SPEED6. I'm not sure if that's confusing you? I'm just not sure which part you're questioning? Are you querstioning the total power the customer was making, or the gains from the Standback?

The car came in with the turbo back and intake installed, AND THEN they tuned the car. With just his bolt-ons and no tune, the customer made 240whp/260lbft. Altered Atmosphere's owner and tuner, Mike Mahaffey, told us that the car had a nasty fuel cut and was running extraordinarily lean because of the AEM intake. After adding some fuel, upping boost to a modest 16psi, and pulling a degree of timing up top, they made 272/300. This was a conservative map however, since a little more boost and timing (below the knock threshold of course) could make a significant difference.

Is that clearer? If not, explain where the confusion lies and I'll do my best to clear things up.


JordanYes,I am referring to the Speed3, but I thought the 6 would be about the same since it has the same engine. I was under the impression the the cp-e dp and cat back added 30hp 40tq on the speed. I thought the tuner and CAI would bump the 30hp 40 tq up from there. I'm not bashing cuz I love CP-E and what you guys are doing for the Speeds, just wondering why the hp-tq numbers are not higher with the standback / CAI. Thanks for your help.

[www.cp-e.com]

Yes,I am referring to the Speed3, but I thought the 6 would be about the same since it has the same engine. I was under the impression the the cp-e dp and cat back added 30hp 40tq on the speed. I thought the tuner and CAI would bump the 30hp 40 tq up from there. I'm not bashing cuz I love CP-E and what you guys are doing for the Speeds, just wondering why the hp-tq numbers are not higher with the standback / CAI. Thanks for your help.


No, no problem, I didn't take it that way (drinks)

I think the problem is that as you add performance parts to your car, the tune drifts as the stock maps are no longer ideal for the newly added hardware. In other words, individually, these parts may add a lot of horsepower, but when you install all of them on an untuned car, they may not make nearly as much power as they did individually because their combined affect on the OE tune is detrimental despite the added breathing benefits. Hence the lean mixture that Mike was referring to. So the tune essentially made the most of the new combination. In an ideal world, if the ECU could constantly tune itself, then I would imagine that he would have made closer to 260whp with the modifications he had on the car (boost was increased slightly too). This is why tuning after you make modifications to the car is so important.

Another complicating factor is that these cars can dyno stock anywhere from 190whp to as high as 230whp. That's a variance of as much as 40whp! Here's someone who made 193whp stock:

http://tinyurl.com/2mz7rx

and here's someone who made 225whp stock:

http://tinyurl.com/2kptyv

I also got a ride in the car in question yesterday, and let me tell you that it literally transformed the car. The difference from tuned to untuned felt like the difference between a full bolt-on car and a stock car. The customer said that he has a friend with an Eagle Talon that typically beat him by about three car lengths whenever they race, and now he says he has no problem pulling on the Talon :D


Jordan

[MUSOM]

Jordan.....you're kinda like a victoria secret underwear model..... all you're doing is standing in the showroom window in a pair of pink frilly panties waving a leather beatin stick teasing us with some dyno results. quit teasin' and get your panty wearing ass off of the computer and get back to makin' my car a low 8 sec 1/8er. (yupnope)

On a more positive note, thanks kid. You're making me even more anxious to get these two upgrades. I'm looking forward to it!(bowdown) (yippy)


No, no problem, I didn't take it that way (drinks)

I think the problem is that as you add performance parts to your car, the tune drifts as the stock maps are no longer ideal for the newly added hardware. In other words, individually, these parts may add a lot of horsepower, but when you install all of them on an untuned car, they may not make nearly as much power as they did individually because their combined affect on the OE tune is detrimental despite the added breathing benefits. Hence the lean mixture that Mike was referring to. So the tune essentially made the most of the new combination. In an ideal world, if the ECU could constantly tune itself, then I would imagine that he would have made closer to 260whp with the modifications he had on the car (boost was increased slightly too). This is why tuning after you make modifications to the car is so important.

Another complicating factor is that these cars can dyno stock anywhere from 190whp to as high as 230whp. That's a variance of as much as 40whp! Here's someone who made 193whp stock:

http://tinyurl.com/2mz7rx

and here's someone who made 225whp stock:

http://tinyurl.com/2kptyv

I also got a ride in the car in question yesterday, and let me tell you that it literally transformed the car. The difference from tuned to untuned felt like the difference between a full bolt-on car and a stock car. The customer said that he has a friend with an Eagle Talon that typically beat him by about three car lengths whenever they race, and now he says he has no problem pulling on the Talon :D


Jordan

[flyrevs]

Thanks CP-E for the explaination makes sense now. So now I gotta keep on waitin for the standback for the Speed3 - definitely my next mod.

ETA? I think there's a lot of people really looking forward to this big time!

[dadasracecar]

Quote
This does not seem right - the cp-e downpipe, and cp-e catback exhaust alone are advertized at " The best part is when the catback is paired with our upcoming downpipe, one can expect on the order of 30hp and 40lbft of torque to the wheels!"
So the cp-e downpipe, and cp-e catback exhaust add 30hp and 40ftlb , add a CAI and standback and get the same ? How did the tuner add power? Looks like bad math to me. I must be missing something.

Can someone explain this? Thanks

Where did you see that quote about the catback and downpipe pairing giving those numbers? It's not on their website. Also, the part about "upcoming" indicates that this information is old as hell. Everyone knows that mod HP improvements are not additive. My understanding is the tune got rid of the fuel cut problem and was very conservative for a daily driver. That's why any HP/tq numbers will be suspect because they will depend on the intentions of the tuner. If you're looking to go to the ragged edge for gains, you'll make more and have impressive numbers but your motor won't last too long. Conversely if you're looking to reliably improve performance and maintain longevity, 30-40 hp for $600 is the best bang for the buck out there.

Most importantly, you're not reading the post correctly. The car made the extra 30+ HP over the same mods without the tune, NOT over stock. Stock the MSP6 makes about 220 Hp to the wheels IIRC.

[LBV]

Mike Mahaffey, told us that the car had a nasty fuel cut and was running extraordinarily lean because of the AEM intake. After adding some fuel, Jordan

This comment about the AEM CAI making the car leaner scared me as I have that mod on - anyway, I hooked up my LM-1 wideband and at WOT the car never got leaner than 11 AFR and most times it was in the mid-10's.

I just though I'd post that in case anyone else is crapping their pants about going dangerously lean with the CAI. I'm not sure if that's the sole reason for Mike's car going lean, but in my case anyway, it's a non-issue.

What's a good AFR on the tune btw? Low 12's??

Anyway, great job on the Standback - part of me just doesn't want to wait on the PnP but the other part sez "just a little longer" ... I hope!

[flyrevs]

Where did you see that quote about the catback and downpipe pairing giving those numbers? It's not on their website. Also, the part about "upcoming" indicates that this information is old as hell. Everyone knows that mod HP improvements are not additive. My understanding is the tune got rid of the fuel cut problem and was very conservative for a daily driver. That's why any HP/tq numbers will be suspect because they will depend on the intentions of the tuner. If you're looking to go to the ragged edge for gains, you'll make more and have impressive numbers but your motor won't last too long. Conversely if you're looking to reliably improve performance and maintain longevity, 30-40 hp for $600 is the best bang for the buck out there.

Most importantly, you're not reading the post correctly. The car made the extra 30+ HP over the same mods without the tune, NOT over stock. Stock the MSP6 makes about 220 Hp to the wheels IIRC.I got it off the forum - where CP-E announced the downpipe and catback. If i can get 30-40 hp for $600 I'll be pretty happy - I really want 3rd to pull hard all the time, it is pretty finicky now seems 4th always pulls hard but 3rd is random. Also holding boost longer would be sweet.

[ianknight]

any dyno numbers available yet?

[www.cp-e.com]

any dyno numbers available yet?


(yippy)


http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123670326


Jordan

[1fastMS6]

with this EMS, will i be able to get rid of the 150MPH govenor?

[Killer]

with this EMS, will i be able to get rid of the 150MPH govenor?

No...but for some reason Mikeys car does 168mph. Send him a PM...


http://www.msprotege.com/forum/member.php?userid=33867

[knowledge007]

again...168 my ass!!!

[Killer]

He swears it will do 168.

[MS6mike]

with this EMS, will i be able to get rid of the 150MPH govenor?



turn off the A/C, trust me it works try it. you will see you speed going over 150mph if you have the A/C off.

[MUSOM]

man....i've got to see a video of that stuff.


turn off the A/C, trust me it works try it. you will see you speed going over 150mph if you have the A/C off.

[Killer]

18 miles per hour over? I doubt it.

[Killer]

man....i've got to see a video of that stuff.asked him for a pic over 3 weeks ago...he just cant seem to swing it. So 168 mph remains complete :bs:

[MS6mike]

well hpw many people claim that they have done over 150mph? it is posible to go over 150mph take your seed 6 turn A/C off and you will se the car reaching 155mph like nothing!

[Killer]

well hpw many people claim that they have done over 150mph? it is posible to go over 150mph take your seed 6 turn A/C off and you will se the car reaching 155mph like nothing!155 I can beleive...but you have said in numerous other threads you have gone 168MPH.

So, lets see a pic. Have a friend take a pic of your speedo at 168...we ALL want to see it.(boom01)

[MS6mike]

okay

[StuttersC]

well hpw many people claim that they have done over 150mph? it is posible to go over 150mph take your seed 6 turn A/C off and you will se the car reaching 155mph like nothing!

You are assuming the speedo is accurate? That's the first mistake.

[MS6mike]

You are assuming the speedo is accurate? That's the first mistake.
thats true it was discused before!

[StuttersC]

thats true it was discused before!

So, if that was discussed, why is it still an arguement about how fast you were going? You weren't going that fast.

[MS6mike]

look i don't know if i was actually going 168mph! all i know is that i saw my speedo at 168. Also my turbo timmer records the top speed and it said 272kph! nobody bolives me, my friend that was folowing me saw me pulling away when he was at 155mph! or atleats his speedo was saying that! if this car can do it why not a mazaspeed6! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPQ_cMgnRxc

[Killer]

and the story changes. :bs:

[RevLimitLaunch]

whoa off topic, every time i see an update i hope its about the cpe ems...but instead its about how fast someone went...sweet (stfu) lol

[jdub260]

whoa off topic, every time i see an update i hope its about the cpe ems...but instead its about how fast someone went...sweet (stfu) lol


I agree this is a paid AV thread and we should keep the he said she said out of it.

No more usless arguing here, it will be deleted. If you want to keep this going start a new thread or use PM's.

We need to get this thread back on track and keep it that way.

CP-E do you have any new updates to get this back on track?

[www.cp-e.com]

I agree this is a paid AV thread and we should keep the he said she said out of it.

No more usless arguing here, it will be deleted. If you want to keep this going start a new thread or use PM's.

We need to get this thread back on track and keep it that way.

CP-E do you have any new updates to get this back on track?


Not really news, but we just had a Mazda dealer install all of our products on a SPEED3 and tuned it using the Standback. They were considering installing our parts on new cars and selling them as a package, so this was their "experiment" so to speak. He went from 217/240 to 273/320 to the wheels!

Posted on another messageboard:


My name is Dennis Gomes I work for the Legendary Bob Tasca at his performance center in Cranston R.I. I have to be honest I mainly build Mustang's and Ford GT's but, when your bosses grandson Carl Tasca Jr. wants his Mazda to go "fast" you have to do it. I hooked up with a company called CP-E (custom performance engineering) who had parts available already for the speed 3. Now I have been dealing with a number of big name companies such as Saleen, Ford Racing, Whipple Superchargers and Greddy on a couple of RX-8's that we have installed turbo's on. I was nervious about using cp-e do to the fact I didn't know weather or not they could meet the standards that I was use to but, they EXCEEDED my expections beyond belief with colored and detailed instructions, excellent tech support and just all around excellent customer service. Now lets talk about our 3 speed, stock to the front wheels on our in house dyno dynamics dyno the 3 made 217 hp and 240 torque. After installing CP-E's in fender cold air induction, downpipe, exhaust, HKS BOV and CP-E standback PCM software with a little tuning the car made an incredible 273hp and 320 torque at the front wheels!!! All of CP-E's parts were great, the exhaust sounds like nothing I have ever heard, and all the fitment was as good as stock. The over all driveablity of the car is unbelievable. If you have any further question on this write up,would like these parts installed by Tasca or even buy a Mazda from us you can reach me at 401.692.6973 or shoot me an email at dgomes@tasca.com. Thank you CP-E!



Jordan

[knowledge007]

Jordan, what did he have ont he turbo back the same as me with one high and one 12"er?

Also, when is the ems going to be ready to ship. That is the only thing I am waiting for. As soon as that comes out I will be purchasing the upgraded tmic.

[dadasracecar]

Not really news, but we just had a Mazda dealer install all of our products on a SPEED3 and tuned it using the Standback. They were considering installing our parts on new cars and selling them as a package, so this was their "experiment" so to speak. He went from 217/240 to 273/320 to the wheels!

Posted on another messageboard:




Jordan
That is fantastic news for you guys. Congratulations. You just thought there were lots of orders.... ;)

[www.cp-e.com]

Jordan, what did he have ont he turbo back the same as me with one high and one 12"er?

Also, when is the ems going to be ready to ship. That is the only thing I am waiting for. As soon as that comes out I will be purchasing the upgraded tmic.


Dennis has the full turboback with cat and single muffler. If I'm not mistaken, it's the same setup you have, no?

I just asked the boss (Josh) and he says that we're going to start selling the Standback to MS3 folks. If you'd like to order one, you may do it over the phone by giving us a call.


Cheers,
Jordan

[knowledge007]

Jordan,

Did you guys finally get full control over the throttle body?

[www.cp-e.com]

Jordan,

Did you guys finally get full control over the throttle body?



Nope, unfortunately not. That's actually a tremendous project, since any traditional method of messing with the throttle won't work and will just set a cel. The throttle has two redundant processors that constantly monitors the throttle position. If one processor indicates a different signal than the second redundant processor, then it sets a cel and goes into limp mode. Since there is no cable attached to the throttle, these processors ensure that the computer doesn't do something that will put the driver in harms way (like keeping the throttle open when it shouldn't be). So not only do we need to be very careful about the end-users safety, we also have to figure out how to "trick" both redundant processors without setting CELs. So there really is a lot of work that still needs to be done.

But our Standback does control boost timing and air/fuel. It is just at the mercy of the throttle plate. We'd be happy to sell you one, and if you'd like to upgrade to the next generation down the line, I'm sure we could work out some kind of deal.


Jordan

[knowledge007]

That was exactly my next question... Would I be able to upgrade? And would I have to replace the entire unit or will there be just a cd with a reprogram map to update software?

[StuttersC]

Nope, unfortunately not. That's actually a tremendous project, since any traditional method of messing with the throttle won't work and will just set a cel. The throttle has two redundant processors that constantly monitors the throttle position. If one processor indicates a different signal than the second redundant processor, then it sets a cel and goes into limp mode. Since there is no cable attached to the throttle, these processors ensure that the computer doesn't do something that will put the driver in harms way (like keeping the throttle open when it shouldn't be). So not only do we need to be very careful about the end-users safety, we also have to figure out how to "trick" both redundant processors without setting CELs. So there really is a lot of work that still needs to be done.

But our Standback does control boost timing and air/fuel. It is just at the mercy of the throttle plate. We'd be happy to sell you one, and if you'd like to upgrade to the next generation down the line, I'm sure we could work out some kind of deal.


Jordan

Mazda certainly seems to go to great lengths to make things work so that tuners can't mess with it later on.

[InlineTwin]

Mazda certainly seems to go to great lengths to make things work so that tuners can't mess with it later on.
EPA and safety crap...you know nothing important.

[Dalton]

Not really news, but we just had a Mazda dealer install all of our products on a SPEED3 and tuned it using the Standback. They were considering installing our parts on new cars and selling them as a package, so this was their "experiment" so to speak. He went from 217/240 to 273/320 to the wheels!

Jordan

Is there something coming for CX7 also - I ordered the CP-E CAI but mostly in terms of EMU? (eekdance)

[StuttersC]

EPA and safety crap...you know nothing important.

You can keep safety and EPA standards in mind while still working with tuners. I think other companies have gone that route before...

[Hate]

You can keep safety and EPA standards in mind while still working with tuners. I think other companies have gone that route before...

Cater to the majority, not the minority. What's in it for Mazda? I don't expect anything from them or any auto maker in respects to making a car mod friendly. It isn't their job to. Their job is to mass produce cars that work reliably.

So back to the topic, how soon are we talking on second generation? Months? Years?

[1fastMS6]

turn off the A/C, trust me it works try it. you will see you speed going over 150mph if you have the A/C off.

all the time when i got up to 150 my ac was off. it just stops going any faster than that. i still haven't gotten a reply from cpe themselves. so a question for them : does the ecu eliminate the 150mph govenor?

[www.cp-e.com]

Is there something coming for CX7 also - I ordered the CP-E CAI but mostly in terms of EMU? (eekdance)


We fully intend on adapting the Standback to the CX7. We just need someone to come by our shop when we have a spare moment so we can find the right wires to tap, and to make sure that we have the right crank timing wheel pattern. In other words, the Standback as it sits can be installed on a CX7 with no hardware changes, which makes our lives much easier :D


So back to the topic, how soon are we talking on second generation? Months? Years?


We're talking months, but I can't say how many. I'd like to say that we should have something in the next 3-4 months, but that's just an off the top of my head estimate. But I'll be on the forums providing regular updates on our progress so everyone is up to date.


all the time when i got up to 150 my ac was off. it just stops going any faster than that. i still haven't gotten a reply from cpe themselves. so a question for them : does the ecu eliminate the 150mph govenor?


Unfortunately our piggyback will not be able to eliminate your speed governer. The Standback can lie to various sensors, but the vehicle speed sensor is not one of them. Your best bet would be some kind of flash tuner, like the Cobb Access Port, but you'll have to do some research to see if that is one of the AP's functions. You might check out Cobb's website for more information.


Jordan

[ms6denver]

I thought this thread was supposed to be a SPEED6 forum. Not to be a (expletive of your choice) but I don't give a rip about the CX7 or the SPEED3 otherwise I'd visit that thread.

I still have the money sitting in my bank account once CPE decides to get serious and release a "finished" product. I hope this doesn't go the way of your FMIC which has been floating on the CPE website for at least the last 7 months listed as "coming soon". Please don't stall out on this product... I want it.

Jordan, any NEW news on the SPEED6 PnP ECU solution over the last 2 weeks?

[RevLimitLaunch]

I thought this thread was supposed to be a SPEED6 forum. Not to be a (expletive of your choice) but I don't give a rip about the CX7 or the SPEED3 otherwise I'd visit that thread.

I still have the money sitting in my bank account once CPE decides to get serious and release a "finished" product. I hope this doesn't go the way of your FMIC which has been floating on the CPE website for at least the last 7 months listed as "coming soon". Please don't stall out on this product... I want it.

Jordan, any NEW news on the SPEED6 PnP ECU solution over the last 2 weeks?


much agreed, speed 3 and cx7 have their own section. but an update on pnp, hopefully for the good, would be aweosme lol

[dadasracecar]

I thought this thread was supposed to be a SPEED6 forum. Not to be a (expletive of your choice) but I don't give a rip about the CX7 or the SPEED3 otherwise I'd visit that thread.

I still have the money sitting in my bank account once CPE decides to get serious and release a "finished" product. I hope this doesn't go the way of your FMIC which has been floating on the CPE website for at least the last 7 months listed as "coming soon". Please don't stall out on this product... I want it.

Jordan, any NEW news on the SPEED6 PnP ECU solution over the last 2 weeks?

Take a chill pill buddy. The standback is available now as wire-in. PnP depends on getting the connectors. Do you think CPE is "stalling" on purpose. They're in it to make money and they don't make money until (the proverbial) you buy something from them. The FMIC is almost ready to ship. I have a prototype on my car now and it's awesome. It will also be the first FMIC on the market. They know you want it. They want to sell it. They don't make a thing until they do and I'll bet you anything you want that Josh, Jordan, and Anthony are there now. 8:05 pm Tuesday. It's also very likely that Lou and John are there as well. What are you doing right now???

[Killer]

I thought this thread was supposed to be a SPEED6 forum. Not to be a (expletive of your choice) but I don't give a rip about the CX7 or the SPEED3 otherwise I'd visit that thread.

Easy tiger.

I still have the money sitting in my bank account once CPE decides to get serious and release a "finished" product. I hope this doesn't go the way of your FMIC which has been floating on the CPE website for at least the last 7 months listed as "coming soon". Please don't stall out on this product... I want it.

Yea and this is REALLY a good way to get them to "Hurry up" for you.(stooges)

Jordan, any NEW news on the SPEED6 PnP ECU solution over the last 2 weeks?

Better, but work on your delivery...seems to me you need to relax a bit.(drinks)

[forrestang]

The EMS is an awesome product, it's very user-friendly and easy to tune with a wideband.

[PerformanceRacing]

Ordered :D

[RevLimitLaunch]

so on the 'other' forum (m 6 club), a thread has been started that cpe has gotten the pnp adapters already

[www.cp-e.com]

so on the 'other' forum (m 6 club), a thread has been started that cpe has gotten the pnp adapters already


(first)

http://www.mustangmods.com/ims/u/535/644/176830.jpg

http://www.mustangmods.com/ims/u/535/644/176831.jpg

Yup, we got the SPEED6 samples in last week and now we're waiting on our full lot (about 1000 PnP sets!). We should be getting the full order in a couple months. We're already taking pre-orders for the PnP Standback for the SPEED6, so if anyone is interested give us a call and we'll add your name and info to the list!


Jordan

[baseballd2]

greatt news! Do you guys know how much more the pnp will be going for compared to the wire in?

[www.cp-e.com]

greatt news! Do you guys know how much more the pnp will be going for compared to the wire in?


(drinks)

Not yet unfortunately. We're going to be doing a lot of work getting some tools together for the PnP option, so we won't have a final price until we get all of that worked out. The crimp tool alone will end up costing us several thousand dollars believe it or not! Preliminarily, we're looking at $200-$400 over the wire-in unit cost for the PnP.


Jordan

[gsrtype1]

im very! intested in the cpe piggy for my ms3

[StuttersC]

Cool, good job on actually getting the harness things! That is a huge step.

[Chris-BE]

Full write up @ http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123676065

My engine/exhaust mods:

CP-E CAI
CP-E Catback
CP-E Standback™

271hp
307ft/lbs

Gains - 31whp/40ft#TQ


91 octane gas
15lbs of boost

The stock ECU numbers are with the intake and catback installed.

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g307/franchizeracing/speed6/dyno/dyno1copy.jpg