max power on stock internals?

[Doodsmack]

hey guys i just read in a magazine that the MS3 comes with forged crankshaft and connecting rods. so i was wondering, just out of curiousity, if anyone has begun to test the limits of the stock engine block? the magazine estimated that you could get 400 whp out of it. of course i'm guessing you would need a new turbo since the stock one is almost out of its efficiency range.

[nazgul350r]

I read that same article, I guess only a couple of tuning houses will be able to do it also, I wish I couls remeber thier names.

[meha11]

I read that same article, I guess only a couple of tuning houses will be able to do it also, I wish I couls remeber thier names.

Does anyone know what the drivetrain is good for? It's great having all that power and torque but breaking something would suck big time.

I dont know if that would be the case but i am curious if anyone knows?

[redms3gt]

I dont think anyone has broke it yet so the sky's the limit till it breaks. engine/trans. I would say 400-500 depending on the tuning? Its basically built to hold 300 stock with the mazdaspeed stuff so 400 should be no problem. As long as the direct injection has no issues with it.

[Evo Scooter]

I dont think anyone has broke it yet so the sky's the limit till it breaks. engine/trans. I would say 400-500 depending on the tuning? Its basically built to hold 300 stock with the mazdaspeed stuff so 400 should be no problem. As long as the direct injection has no issues with it.

Although I am all for adding power I don't think we should be adding too much as the FWD will not be able to handle all that power easily. My wife was driving the car recently and she said:

"You were right..." she said.
"About what?" I was shocked.
"You need to hold on to the steering wheel tight when you punch it." she replied.

This is her first FWD car and she noticed it has a different driving style as compared to her two Jeep Grand Cherokee Laredos and her BMW 325i. Torque Steer!

That being said, I'm planning on Intake, exhaust and TMIC upgrade but little by little so she can get used to the added power when she stomps on it. I get the imperssion that this little engine was built for abuse.

[Mocoso]

hey guys i just read in a magazine that the MS3 comes with forged crankshaft and connecting rods. so i was wondering, just out of curiousity, if anyone has begun to test the limits of the stock engine block? the magazine estimated that you could get 400 whp out of it. of course i'm guessing you would need a new turbo since the stock one is almost out of its efficiency range.


Im skeptical of 400 HP at the wheels on stock internals... while you may get it without it blowing up I doubt the engine will last you anything close to 100K miles... not to mention the tranny and drivetrain would problably torque itself to death....

[Speed_Racer]

100K is alot of miles, considering the average miles per year is about12-15k. 6 and half years is more than enough for 400hp daily driven car, i doubt anyone would complain.

the drivetrain will be more of a driver thing.

[jeffmsp]

i am sure it can see 400whp. the bp can hit 400 on stock motor and this one is even more beefy and better engineered. New intake manfold, exhaust manifold, turbocharged, intercooler, exhaust and EMS = 400WHP no problem. With just the XEDE you are almost at 300WHP and you havent even started modding yet lol. If you are nuts nd wanna push the motor to the limit you can do a methenol injection setup also.

[jeffmsp]

does cosworth produce an intake manifold for the disi mzr as well as the focus one? that would be a good start.

[jeffmsp]

Although I am all for adding power I don't think we should be adding too much as the FWD will not be able to handle all that power easily. My wife was driving the car recently and she said:

"You were right..." she said.
"About what?" I was shocked.
"You need to hold on to the steering wheel tight when you punch it." she replied.

This is her first FWD car and she noticed it has a different driving style as compared to her two Jeep Grand Cherokee Laredos and her BMW 325i. Torque Steer!

That being said, I'm planning on Intake, exhaust and TMIC upgrade but little by little so she can get used to the added power when she stomps on it. I get the imperssion that this little engine was built for abuse.
__________________


so because the car is fwd you dont want alot of power? It just means you have to learn how to drive and not act like you wife and complain about torque steer. of course it has torque steer, its fwd just hold onto the wheel. your car isnt that fast lol plenty of people daily drive 11-12 second fwd cars to work everyday.

[turbofever]

so because the car is fwd you dont want alot of power? It just means you have to learn how to drive and not act like you wife and complain about torque steer. of course it has torque steer, its fwd just hold onto the wheel. your car isnt that fast lol plenty of people daily drive 11-12 second fwd cars to work everyday.
(lol)(first)

[spike blue]

well the mazda comes 300 hp with the adrenaline and they said the engine can hold up to 400hp with no problem even with the auto transmission!!! so the ms3 400hp will be ok!!!

[spike blue]

here http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123657966

[Mocoso]

so because the car is fwd you dont want alot of power? It just means you have to learn how to drive and not act like you wife and complain about torque steer. of course it has torque steer, its fwd just hold onto the wheel. your car isnt that fast lol plenty of people daily drive 11-12 second fwd cars to work everyday.

I would love to hear which mass produced fwd daily driver is pulling 11-12 second times and is still able to handle the first left or right turn with all the added power....

[jeffmsp]

turbo civics for a start... light hatchback + built motor + turbo = wow my buddy daves late 90 civic 4 door has a built gsr motor, all external mods. Pushing pretty close to 500HP drives it to work whenever its not snowing. but this is a dumb argument anyways. we are both right.

also ford escort lx with like 2 grand put into it.

sand rt4 with all the mopar stuff and good tires.

list goes on. fwd isnt that bad, especially this ms3. back on topic ..

[WTF MATE]

I would love to hear which mass produced fwd daily driver is pulling 11-12 second times and is still able to handle the first left or right turn with all the added power....
I don't think anyone was reffering to a mass produced vehicle, what was being said was that an 11-12 second fwd car can be a very reliable daily driver that doesn't have to be a hassle at all to drive. I drive a 12sec N/A gsr that could be driven to work every day without a hassle if I chose to. As for making left and right turns, I don't know what people are talking about, really if you floor any car around a turn its going to produce wheel spin. Why don't they learn to drive and use this little trick called throttle control. Don't floor the freakin car when turning and you won't have a problem with it. Really I never heard so many people bitch about a car before. If you wanted an econo box why buy a sports car. Are you gonna complain if you own a Porshce that its to powerful because it spins the tires in a strait line.

[Evo Scooter]

so because the car is fwd you dont want alot of power? It just means you have to learn how to drive and not act like you wife and complain about torque steer. of course it has torque steer, its fwd just hold onto the wheel. your car isnt that fast lol plenty of people daily drive 11-12 second fwd cars to work everyday.

I autoX and I watch a lot of cars with too much power totally lose control (FWD, RWD and AWD). Remember power without control is useless. That is why Mazda limits power in the first two gears, to avoid wheelspin and keep control of the car. I don't mind more power but I want it balanced with the ability to control it.

As for my wife this is her first FWD car and it requires a totally different driving style than a RWD car. She has never felt torque steer so it did surprise her. She is definately not complaining about the power now that she has had three weeks to get used to it. My three previous DSMs gave me plenty of torque steer, thank you very much.

By the way you sound like an SRT4 driver. Maybe you should put that attitude in check.

[Evo Scooter]

I don't think anyone was reffering to a mass produced vehicle, what was being said was that an 11-12 second fwd car can be a very reliable daily driver that doesn't have to be a hassle at all to drive. I drive a 12sec N/A gsr that could be driven to work every day without a hassle if I chose to. As for making left and right turns, I don't know what people are talking about, really if you floor any car around a turn its going to produce wheel spin. Why don't they learn to drive and use this little trick called throttle control. Don't floor the freakin car when turning and you won't have a problem with it. Really I never heard so many people bitch about a car before. If you wanted an econo box why buy a sports car. Are you gonna complain if you own a Porshce that its to powerful because it spins the tires in a strait line.

Most people who mod their cars to give them 11-12 second cars also do work on their SUSPENSIONS to make sure the car can HANDLE. If not they will end up going sideways into a wall. As for throttle control I have plenty thank you very much. But in the heat of a AutoX run sometimes things get away from you so you want a little safety margin.

Wow I was getting such a good feeling about this forum until just about now. you guys definately sound like SRT4 drivers.

[WTF MATE]

I autoX and I watch a lot of cars with too much power totally lose control (FWD, RWD and AWD). Remember power without control is useless. That is why Mazda limits power in the first two gears, to avoid wheelspin and keep control of the car. I don't mind more power but I want it balanced with the ability to control it.

As for my wife this is her first FWD car and it requires a totally different driving style than a RWD car. She has never felt torque steer so it did surprise her. She is definately not complaining about the power now that she has had three weeks to get used to it. My three previous DSMs gave me plenty of torque steer, thank you very much.

By the way you sound like an SRT4 driver. Maybe you should put that attitude in check.
If you autoX you should know that cars don't lose control because they have to much power. They lose control because they are going to fast and because the driver pushed their limits and lost control. There is no problem being able to control the power this car puts down. This is by far one of the easiest FWD cars I have ever driven. In fact I think its rediculous all the limitations they put on this car, probablly for the reason that they don't want to be reliable for dumbasses not knowing how to drive and thinking they can just hold the gas pedal to the floor the whole time. And since we're talking about wives driving, my wife thinks this car is slow, she thinks that Mazda is retarted for limiting the boost, because it takes away from driving experience. And if your wife hasn't had any problem driving RWD vehicles than I don't see why she should have any problem driving this because it should be a lot simpler. Oh and congrats on your DSM's giving you torque steer, like I said before you can floor just about any FWD car and get torque steer that includes a geo so imo anyone that has had there license since the 90's should be used to it by now considering that almost every vehicle since then has been FWD.

[WTF MATE]

Most people who mod their cars to give them 11-12 second cars also do work on their SUSPENSIONS to make sure the car can HANDLE. If not they will end up going sideways into a wall. As for throttle control I have plenty thank you very much. But in the heat of a AutoX run sometimes things get away from you so you want a little safety margin.

Wow I was getting such a good feeling about this forum until just about now. you guys definately sound like SRT4 drivers.
Yes thats great if your suspension isn't capable enough, but the Speed 3's suspension is freakin terrific. Really why is too much power going to put you in a wall. Slow the hell down before you turn, it's not that hard of a concept. And as for AutoX, whatever, I did that shit when I was 16 if you want to push your car's limits join the NASA or similar and take it on a real track, not that parking lot crap. I'm not dogging you for wanting to not mod your car and maybe get used to it before you give it more power but don't blame that on the car not being able to handle it. The car is fine, it seems like the drivers are the ones having the problems. As for this forum, there's nothing wrong with it. And I have never owned a dodge in my life so I don't know who your reffering to as an SRT4 owner, really sterotyping certain vehicle drivers into a catagory now, that's real mature, how bout we get ignorant towards the honda drivers to right away.

[Mocoso]

I don't think anyone was reffering to a mass produced vehicle, what was being said was that an 11-12 second fwd car can be a very reliable daily driver that doesn't have to be a hassle at all to drive. I drive a 12sec N/A gsr that could be driven to work every day without a hassle if I chose to. As for making left and right turns, I don't know what people are talking about, really if you floor any car around a turn its going to produce wheel spin. Why don't they learn to drive and use this little trick called throttle control. Don't floor the freakin car when turning and you won't have a problem with it. Really I never heard so many people bitch about a car before. If you wanted an econo box why buy a sports car. Are you gonna complain if you own a Porshce that its to powerful because it spins the tires in a strait line.

Ok left and right turn is rather simple: unless all you care about is 1/4 mile drag races adding a ton of power to a car isnt going to give you better track times on an autocross or the "real" track... dont believe me? assume you could add sufficient hp and torque to the MS3 without doing anything else to bring it up to 400/400 and take a bone stock C6 Corvette.. which car do you think will win that race? throttle control or not the C6 will be able to carry more speed through a turn which means it will make better use of the power available to it... whats the point of having 1000HP if you have to slam on the brakes and do 10 miles per hour through the turn because the car cant handle it? You still dont believe me? there is plenty of good ole American muscle cars of the 60's who fit the profile... beasts with uncaged raw power which cant brake or turn worth a damn....

The logical thing to do is work on the suspension and brakes to give the car balance and allow it to make full use of the added power.... note most supercars or "sports" cars arent all about power but a balance of power and handling....

So if you add the power and you add the suspension and brakes while yes it can be a daily driver (hell any car that moves can be a daily driver) it doesnt make for the most practical or economical daily driver... it will be stiff, noisy, and expensive to mantain (tires, brakes, engine components) not to mention the extra gas....

having said all that: its your frigin ride.. add 1000 HP to it if you wish... Ill be saying "Damn... sweet a 1270 HP MS3... coool" but I wouldnt buy it from you to use as my daily driver... each his own....

You all realize we completly got this thread off topic... can we agree to disagree and drop this argument... I agree with jeffmsp this argument wont get us anywhere... so Ill repeat what he said: "ist goes on. fwd isnt that bad, especially this ms3. back on topic .."

[WTF MATE]

Ok left and right turn is rather simple: unless all you care about is 1/4 mile drag races adding a ton of power to a car isnt going to give you better track times on an autocross or the "real" track... dont believe me? assume you could add sufficient hp and torque to the MS3 without doing anything else to bring it up to 400/400 and take a bone stock C6 Corvette.. which car do you think will win that race? throttle control or not the C6 will be able to carry more speed through a turn which means it will make better use of the power available to it... whats the point of having 1000HP if you have to slam on the brakes and do 10 miles per hour through the turn because the car cant handle it? You still dont believe me? there is plenty of good ole American muscle cars of the 60's who fit the profile... beasts with uncaged raw power which cant brake or turn worth a damn....

The logical thing to do is work on the suspension and brakes to give the car balance and allow it to make full use of the added power.... note most supercars or "sports" cars arent all about power but a balance of power and handling....

So if you add the power and you add the suspension and brakes while yes it can be a daily driver (hell any car that moves can be a daily driver) it doesnt make for the most practical or economical daily driver... it will be stiff, noisy, and expensive to mantain (tires, brakes, engine components) not to mention the extra gas....

having said all that: its your frigin ride.. add 1000 HP to it if you wish... Ill be saying "Damn... sweet a 1270 HP MS3... coool" but I wouldnt buy it from you to use as my daily driver... each his own....

You all realize we completly got this thread off topic... can we agree to disagree and drop this argument... I agree with jeffmsp this argument wont get us anywhere... so Ill repeat what he said: "ist goes on. fwd isnt that bad, especially this ms3. back on topic .."
Ok we can drop it but I'm still not understanding I guess what horspower has to do with the ability to carry speed thru a turn. I don't know how you drive but for the most part I'm not even on the throttle Until I'm exiting a turn, Therefore, Wheather my car has 300hp or 1000hp the stock suspension is going to be able to handle the same turn at the same speed. No matter how much horspower my car is making. Its pretty simple to understand. Now maybe putting the power to the ground exiting the turn but I'm pretty sure this lsd in the car can easily handle putting at least 500whp to the ground without breaking a sweat.

[Evo Scooter]

Yes thats great if your suspension isn't capable enough, but the Speed 3's suspension is freakin terrific. Really why is too much power going to put you in a wall. Slow the hell down before you turn, it's not that hard of a concept. And as for AutoX, whatever, I did that shit when I was 16 if you want to push your car's limits join the NASA or similar and take it on a real track, not that parking lot crap.(sarcasm)Oh yes, oh great one, please forgive my ignorance. Forgive me for only having started autocrossing 3 years ago, Forgive me for not having started at 16 like you did. Forgive me for not having $300 or $400 dollars spare cash for a nasa event as my homeowners insurance here in Florida more than tripled this year to over $5000. I apologize for ever having given my unworthy opinion. Forgive me for setting a goal of doing a few years of AutoX before moving on to bigger things.(/sarcasm)

I'm not dogging you for wanting to not mod your car and maybe get used to it before you give it more power but don't blame that on the car not being able to handle it. The car is fine, it seems like the drivers are the ones having the problems. I have had the car for three weeks and I'm not about to go nuts trying to pull out 1000 HP before I get it out of the break in period. People were talking about how much power they could pull out and the simple fact is that though Mazda has done an awesome job with the speed 3, FWD has some limitations.

Honestly I have not come close to finding those limits, again as I am still in the break in. when I do get to finding the limits I will add the appropriate mods to get a fully balanced car out of it. I don't need tons of wheel hop and spinning tires when I touch the damn accelerator.
I have seen some cars with huge amounts of torque just spin their tires and push into corners like mad because the car's balance was off. I may not have all your million years of experience but when I go to events I watch, look and learn. I don't need a tempermental car that I have to fight with. I want one that will obey my commands.


As for this forum, there's nothing wrong with it. And I have never owned a dodge in my life so I don't know who your reffering to as an SRT4 owner, really sterotyping certain vehicle drivers into a catagory now, that's real mature, how bout we get ignorant towards the honda drivers to right away. I was actually very impressed with this forum. I was impressed because it was not full of people calling each other out and insulting each other. It was a very cool group of folks talking about the car they love. Then you came along and the first words typed by you to me were...

so because the car is fwd you dont want alot of power? It just means you have to learn how to drive and not act like you wife and complain about torque steer. of course it has torque steer, its fwd just hold onto the wheel. your car isnt that fast lol plenty of people daily drive 11-12 second fwd cars to work everyday. From my side it sounds like you are giving me attitude. I've been driving for 21 years. I certainly don't need to be lectured in that manner by someone who acts like a teenager. And no, I don't know how old you are nor do I care at this point.

[/rant]

Edit: OK I see your going to drop it but so I apologize for the rant but if you want to see the attitude I'm talking about go to the SRT forums and browse.

[Bakrauf]

Peace my brothers!!!

[tsunami]

lets put this thread back on track... glad to see both of you guys are dropping the issue but lets try and push this thread back to what the internals can take


and my opinion for what its worth

i would thing the internals can take another 50-75 or so hp before you are going to start causing issues beyond that i would think your taking the engine beyond its comfort zone... i could be proven wrong but this is a mazda not a supra so i wouldn't expect much more.

[Hikaru9]

On topic, I wouldn't want to go past 300hp with this car regardless of what the internals can handle only because it's FWD.

I'm no race car driver, nor do I auto-x like some of our fine fellow forum members; nevertheless, from my years of driving FWD layout (never owned any other), I'm sure driving a 500whp FWD car around the track is no easy task. If one possesses such skills, I have high respect for him. *^_^*

I've linked this article before --> http://www.caranddriver.com/features/10495/sport-acura-rsx-challenge.html

FWIW this article interested me because 1. RSX was my last car 2. magazines approached the project all differently. At the end of this event which took many months (from building to racing), it wasn't the 500+whp RSX that won the event, but a 230whp RSX that had a balanced chassis with excellent suspension setup. I'm no expert, but I figure these *magazine people are, so maybe that's saying something. *^_^* Don't hate me though. lol~


*Car and Driver, Honda Tuning, Import Performance, Import Tuner, Speed Magazine, and Super Street

[WTF MATE]

On topic, I would say that if everything in the bottom end is forged like their saying it is, I give the bottom end 500whp easy, The head might need somebetter valvesprings and retainers but since I've seen stock honda motors hold up to 300hp on boost doubling their stock output, with crap internals, I think if Mazda has truely spent their time on this motor like they said it won't have any problem doubling its power output.

Also I do agree on a well balanced car, but I think that this car lacks horsepower and I think if it had an extra hundred or so it would be alot more balanced.

[Evo Scooter]

Well, since the engine is shared with the MS6, how much have they been able to squeeze out of it.

[Doodsmack]

lots of unanswered questions. thats interesting that the bottom end is forged though, didn't know that. definitely more potential than the MSP.

i think the big question is whether the ECU can be properly tuned, i.e. taking away the boost limiter in lower gears.

[Evo Scooter]

lots of unanswered questions. thats interesting that the bottom end is forged though, didn't know that. definitely more potential than the MSP.

i think the big question is whether the ECU can be properly tuned, i.e. taking away the boost limiter in lower gears.

Unless you change to some seriously sticky front tires I would leave that alone or your going to get tons of wheelspin. Now if you want to do burnouts...

I would like to see the power stepped up gradually to see how well the chassis takes to extra power. TMIC seems to add some power and CAI and exhaust must too. I think Sport Compact Car did a comparo with the Mazdaspeed3 and a Mazdaspeed3 with the Mazdaspeed CAI and Exhaust. According to the writers it totally woke up the upper rev range and the car would pull all the way to the rev limit. Upper revs is where the car is needing the power.

(DAMN now I have to go find and reread the issue.)

[jeffmsp]

saying that you wouldnt want more than 300ho out a the ms3 because its fwd is retarded. Boost is limited in 1 and 2 so whats the problem? Even if you are making crazy boost and spinning through 3rd you simply modulate the throttle. Seems like people want an idiot proof car, i mean if you cant handle power with fwd then you sure as fuck shouldnt be saying you want even more power in rwd cause your just going to be going backwards all day since you cant even modulate the gas lol

I bet if half the people that modded there cars spent the money learning how to drive they would put much better times in the stock car especially at autoX lol bitching that you will spin the tires giving it gas around a corner, god man modulate the peddle or go home lol like wtf do people expect, now the rest have to suffer for the nancies lack of skills

[Evo Scooter]

saying that you wouldnt want more than 300ho out a the ms3 because its fwd is retarded. Boost is limited in 1 and 2 so whats the problem? Even if you are making crazy boost and spinning through 3rd you simply modulate the throttle. Seems like people want an idiot proof car, i mean if you cant handle power with fwd then you sure as fuck shouldnt be saying you want even more power in rwd cause your just going to be going backwards all day since you cant even modulate the gas lol

I bet if half the people that modded there cars spent the money learning how to drive they would put much better times in the stock car especially at autoX lol bitching that you will spin the tires giving it gas around a corner, god man modulate the peddle or go home lol like wtf do people expect, now the rest have to suffer for the nancies lack of skills

Here we go again... (deadhorse

Go do your burnouts ricer, I want something can take to the Dragon that will not betray me. And if you actually bothered to read my post you will see I'm not against adding power but want to see it done gradually to see just how much the chassis can take.

I am permanently done on this thread

[fourthmeal]

Damn, kids! Will you all go out and take a long, spirited drive (with whatever horsepower you got) and put a smile back on your face, then post? SHEEZ!

To continue the post:

It will be fun seeing who blows the motor first from this upcoming power war.

[Mocoso]

Damn, kids! Will you all go out and take a long, spirited drive (with whatever horsepower you got) and put a smile back on your face, then post? SHEEZ!

To continue the post:

It will be fun seeing who blows the motor first from this upcoming power war.

Someone will overboost the thing soon enough....

[fourthmeal]

XX Crosses Fingers that its not ME XX

Anywho, I'm looking forward to a clean, honest 300HP to the wheels, then I think I'm done w/ this car as far as power mods go. Tires seem to be more of a problem then..

[desperado-c]

Damn, kids! Will you all go out and take a long, spirited drive (with whatever horsepower you got) and put a smile back on your face, then post? SHEEZ!

....

CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG! Why does this have to happen time after time, again and again, over and over, day after day. (cryhard) Oh, well, I guess it's just human nature. (bump) Yeah, people, go take a drive or something!