Why does the Fusion have availble AWD.......

[Donas64]

And the Mazda6 does not?

They are built off the same platform so whats the deal here. I know that it might put it in contention with the Mazdaspeed6 but honestly if mazda upped the powe of the MS6 to about 300 horsepower and stuck the vew corporate V6 (250-260hp I believe) in the mazda6 as an option and equipped it with AWD, it would be awesome for those of us who want a good looking AWD sport sedan with decent power.

[MS6S2K]

I would have to believe that the next generation Mazda 6 will have this available in 2008, since the Speed 6 will be gone after 2007. It would be very foolish not to make an AWD option. There really would be no point to offer it at the tail end of the current generation 6, when the new one is set to come out next year. The next Mazda 6 top of the line should have equal performance aspects as the Speed 6, but with an automatic option. Then we will have a successful AWD 6, and not the attempted enthusiast failure with the Mazdaspeed tag.

The Speed 6 to me is a sub par Mazdaspeed vehicle, as it's kind of stuck in it's own category. It's failed because it was geared towards enthusiasts, and there's so many better options out there performance wise. If you gear it towards a regular comsumer market, I believe it will succeed. Mazda is not capable of building a 300hp car right now, as they are already struggling with the tuning of the current Speed 6. They have a ways to go before they get this engine to produce more power safely and efficiently, as they already pushed it to higher hp levels before it was ready (example: constant reflashes due to power loss issues).

I'd think that when the next Mazdaspeed 6 is ready to be made in a few years, they will be ready to push the HP up on this turbo engine. It's time for Mazda to step up to the plate, and get things right, instead of releasing a vehicle before it's truly ready. However,, the Speed 6 makes for a good beginning for the future of the 6, since the next generation 6 will have more of a market, and hopefully the bugs will be worked out by then. :)

[Newf]

I think you are going to start seeing AWD on all of the popular sedans. Honda's new accord is supposed to get it as well.

[Chris-BE]

The new 08 Mazda6 will have AWD option.

This is old news.

[Raynman]

FYI The Japanese 6/Atenza 2.3L has had an AWD option since '03 or '04. WHy that option did not translate, I have yet to figure out.

[Donas64]

The new 08 Mazda6 will have AWD option.

This is old news.

Old news to you maybe but I had heard nothing of this.

[Donas64]

I would have to believe that the next generation Mazda 6 will have this available in 2008, since the Speed 6 will be gone after 2007. It would be very foolish not to make an AWD option. There really would be no point to offer it at the tail end of the current generation 6, when the new one is set to come out next year. The next Mazda 6 top of the line should have equal performance aspects as the Speed 6, but with an automatic option. Then we will have a successful AWD 6, and not the attempted enthusiast failure with the Mazdaspeed tag.

The Speed 6 to me is a sub par Mazdaspeed vehicle, as it's kind of stuck in it's own category. It's failed because it was geared towards enthusiasts, and there's so many better options out there performance wise. If you gear it towards a regular comsumer market, I believe it will succeed. Mazda is not capable of building a 300hp car right now, as they are already struggling with the tuning of the current Speed 6. They have a ways to go before they get this engine to produce more power safely and efficiently, as they already pushed it to higher hp levels before it was ready (example: constant reflashes due to power loss issues).

I'd think that when the next Mazdaspeed 6 is ready to be made in a few years, they will be ready to push the HP up on this turbo engine. It's time for Mazda to step up to the plate, and get things right, instead of releasing a vehicle before it's truly ready. However,, the Speed 6 makes for a good beginning for the future of the 6, since the next generation 6 will have more of a market, and hopefully the bugs will be worked out by then. :)

Great post. Yeah, even though the 2.3 DISI is capable of some amazing stuff (i.e: propelling the MS3 to over 160mph), I've heard too many power loss and fluctuating dyno stories to fully trust a turboed maza vehicle.

Heres all I want:

Sporty Styling (which the 6 already has)
Decent Handling (Again the 6 already has)
AWD (coming in 08 at least that what people say)
and 250+ N/A Horsepower (I think this is do-able also)
I'd also like paddle shifters as my wife can't drive a stick but I still want to change gears on my own.

So heres hoping they get it right!

[Hughes412]

Great post. Yeah, even though the 2.3 DISI is capable of some amazing stuff (i.e: propelling the MS3 to over 160mph), I've heard too many power loss and fluctuating dyno stories to fully trust a turboed maza vehicle.

Heres all I want:

Sporty Styling (which the 6 already has)
Decent Handling (Again the 6 already has)
AWD (coming in 08 at least that what people say)
and 250+ N/A Horsepower (I think this is do-able also)
I'd also like paddle shifters as my wife can't drive a stick but I still want to change gears on my own.

So heres hoping they get it right!
I like those, I would almost buy it. But mazda needs to either shortin the 6 or make it wider! I think it's just to long and skinny.

[ZoomZoomH]

long and skinny.

you call that portly mass of a family sedan skinny????

[Raynman]

Sadly, the next gen 6's wil be longer and thus heavier which is not what I want. :/ On the bright side, the new Duratec 35 is sure to deliver 250+ hp with ease and capable of 300+ hp on future platforms. :)

[Da 6]

FYI The Japanese 6/Atenza 2.3L has had an AWD option since '03 or '04. WHy that option did not translate, I have yet to figure out. Euro wagon iirc as well

[Donas64]

you call that portly mass of a family sedan skinny????

Compared to the Camry and Accord the Mazda6 is a featherweight.

[Donas64]

Sadly, the next gen 6's wil be longer and thus heavier which is not what I want. :/ On the bright side, the new Duratec 35 is sure to deliver 250+ hp with ease and capable of 300+ hp on future platforms. :)

I have really high hopes for the new 6. Heres hoping it doesn't lost it's handsome good looks!

[Hughes412]

you call that portly mass of a family sedan skinny????
I was refering to the 6, I just saw that he said 3. On that note, you are right, portly!

[StuttersC]

Mazda has "detuned" just about every Mazdaspeed vehicle they have released. And for good reason.

The Mazdaspeed MX-5 is a prefect example. The Mazdaspeed protege was a joke, and the 6 was better than both, but still lacking.

The US market will not support the kind of car you mention in this thread from Mazda. And, Mazda does not want to deal with the warranty issues a monster car would bring. Mazda can make the car you want, the Mazdaspeed MX-5 was purposely "detuned" and I suspect with some real research, the 6 would show the same thing.

[MS6S2K]

Mazda has "detuned" just about every Mazdaspeed vehicle they have released. And for good reason.

The Mazdaspeed MX-5 is a prefect example. The Mazdaspeed protege was a joke, and the 6 was better than both, but still lacking.

The US market will not support the kind of car you mention in this thread from Mazda. And, Mazda does not want to deal with the warranty issues a monster car would bring. Mazda can make the car you want, the Mazdaspeed MX-5 was purposely "detuned" and I suspect with some real research, the 6 would show the same thing.


Well, I suspect a lot of the reason they detune their cars is because they have to, to avoid potential issues, that could ruin their reputation. They likely will not be reliable if they are tweaked either. Mazda is still behind companies like Subaru in terms of reliability in turbo vehicles, especially high boost, high hp 4 bangers. They simply will not take the risk Subaru has taken with the STI. Subaru has a proven reliable winner in the STI, and all their turbo cars because it's got 300HP, handles modifications well because it's beefed up and prepared for them. Lots of Stage 2 guys who bought the first model year in 04, and have $75k-100k miles on it, track it occasionally, and they so far have proven themselves as reliable high hp cars.

We'll see How Mazda does. I hope my Speed 6 can be durbale and reliable long term, without having to spend lots of $$$ in repairs. I'm afraid to modify my Speed 6 because it's a daily driver. I just don' think it's gonna stand up to mods long term, and still last 150k miles without needing major repairs. Time will tell. :)

[StuttersC]

Well, I suspect a lot of the reason they detune their cars is because they have to, to avoid potential issues, that could ruin their reputation. They likely will not be reliable if they are tweaked either. Mazda is still behind companies like Subaru in terms of reliability in turbo vehicles, especially high boost, high hp 4 bangers. They simply will not take the risk Subaru has taken with the STI. Subaru has a proven reliable winner in the STI, and all their turbo cars because it's got 300HP, handles modifications well because it's beefed up and prepared for them. Lots of Stage 2 guys who bought the first model year in 04, and have $75k-100k miles on it, track it occasionally, and they so far have proven themselves as reliable high hp cars.

We'll see How Mazda does. I hope my Speed 6 can be durbale and reliable long term, without having to spend lots of $$$ in repairs. I'm afraid to modify my Speed 6 because it's a daily driver. I just don' think it's gonna stand up to mods long term, and still last 150k miles without needing major repairs. Time will tell. :)

I disagree. The 323 GTX is a classic example of a stout motor in an all-wheel-drive car that handled plenty of power, and the car over-all was a solid competitor.

And the Mazdaspeed Miata is another stout motor. Turbo Miatas have handled serious power levels for a long time with zero reliability issues.

I think the collar Mazda wears is semi-self imposed and mostly imposed by the Ford monster on it's back. If the Miata out-powered the new 'Stang, Ford would be mad. If the MSP out-powered the then SVT Focus, we would have a problem. The same thing follows suit with the Mazdaspeed 6. The Fusion is supposed to be the big dog, not the up start Mazda.

[jersey_emt]

I disagree. The 323 GTX is a classic example of a stout motor in an all-wheel-drive car that handled plenty of power, and the car over-all was a solid competitor.

And the Mazdaspeed Miata is another stout motor. Turbo Miatas have handled serious power levels for a long time with zero reliability issues.

I think the collar Mazda wears is semi-self imposed and mostly imposed by the Ford monster on it's back. If the Miata out-powered the new 'Stang, Ford would be mad. If the MSP out-powered the then SVT Focus, we would have a problem. The same thing follows suit with the Mazdaspeed 6. The Fusion is supposed to be the big dog, not the up start Mazda.

MSP did out-power (and out-handle) the SVT Focus by a fairly large margin.

[Raynman]

...I suspect with some real research, the 6 would show the same thing.

Well I can't comment on the turbo L3, but the AJ is indeed detuned though I don't think Mazda is to entirely to blame. If you check out the attached dyno sheet (courtesy of ZoomZoomDiva), you'll notice that the AJ runs pig rich - it goes into the 9's.

Why would Mazda do that? Well the 6 falls under EPA Tier 2 regs which requires the car to fall into stricter smog/emissions controls and have a catalytic converter that lasts 120,000 miles.

How do you make a cat last that long? Well if you run a motor rich, your exhaust gas is not as hot therefore will degrade the cat as quickly.

How does one meet the stricter emissions controls? Well you put not one but two main cats and two precats in the car. The AJ has precat at each bank so that it meets emissions during warmup. The two main cats make sure that the car meets EPA Tier II, nevermind that the EPA hates cats because the increase NOx while decreasing smog. They seem to believe they can have their smog cake and eat NOx too. This contradictory policy is just evidence to me that the bureacracy is more intent on preserving the bureacracy than on saving the environment, but I digress...

I just think that Mazda was forced to engineer themselves into a corner by seemingly contradictory EPA policies. Furthermore, the AJ is no slouch of a motor either. Recall that Noble uses modified 3.0L Duratecs for their 425 hp supercars. Just imagine how much power can be had just by AF tuning alone!

[D-rock240]

Mazda has "detuned" just about every Mazdaspeed vehicle they have released. And for good reason.

The Mazdaspeed MX-5 is a prefect example. The Mazdaspeed protege was a joke, and the 6 was better than both, but still lacking.

The US market will not support the kind of car you mention in this thread from Mazda. And, Mazda does not want to deal with the warranty issues a monster car would bring. Mazda can make the car you want, the Mazdaspeed MX-5 was purposely "detuned" and I suspect with some real research, the 6 would show the same thing.

Mazda wouldn't be the first to do that either. Nissan chose to bring over the 240sx to the US with the truck engine instead of the turbo charged engine the 180sx had specifically because Nissan was worried about possible lawsuits from improper consumer use.

[MS6S2K]

I disagree. The 323 GTX is a classic example of a stout motor in an all-wheel-drive car that handled plenty of power, and the car over-all was a solid competitor.

And the Mazdaspeed Miata is another stout motor. Turbo Miatas have handled serious power levels for a long time with zero reliability issues.

I think the collar Mazda wears is semi-self imposed and mostly imposed by the Ford monster on it's back. If the Miata out-powered the new 'Stang, Ford would be mad. If the MSP out-powered the then SVT Focus, we would have a problem. The same thing follows suit with the Mazdaspeed 6. The Fusion is supposed to be the big dog, not the up start Mazda.


Although I agree with some of what you are saying, you have somewhat changed the argument here. The past doesn't mean much right now. I'm talking about the present. What I see is a Mazdaspeed 6 having tuning issues, and needing constant reflashes to try and keep this power consistent. I have owned an STI previously, and the car has a good deal more hp, yet even when it first came out in summer of 2003, it had no reflashes, no tuning issues, loss of power, and runs superbly, even modified in Stage 2. The de-tuned Legacy GT has the power of the Speed 6, but power gains are very easy on that car. The potential is far greater right now, and I believe the reliability is far greater as well. The AWD system itself is more durable. If you wanna disagree that's fine. :)

Mazda may have some nice performing cars, but if you think this 2.3 turbo engine is advanced enough right now for them to reliably make a 300+HP bone stock Speed 6, capable of adding 50whp reliably, you are kidding yourself. They have to play catchup. Yes, they detuned the MS vehicles in the past, but they had to in order for it to handle modifications reliably. They can't put out a high hp car thats ready to instantly handle 50 more WHP like Subaru and Mitsubishi can do. The Speed 6 is not purposely de-tuned. Perhaps in a few years 260-270hp in that engine will be de-tuned.

I wouldn't trust my Speed 6 if I added 50whp, but I would my former STI in a heartbeat. We shall see if they can compete with Subaru and Mitsubishi. I'd love to see them produce a car to compete with the STi and EVO, but I just don't think they can right now. :)

[StuttersC]

MSP did out-power (and out-handle) the SVT Focus by a fairly large margin.

In real life yes it did. On paper they seemed similar to the untrained person.

[StuttersC]

Although I agree with some of what you are saying, you have somewhat changed the argument here. The past doesn't mean much right now. I'm talking about the present. What I see is a Mazdaspeed 6 having tuning issues, and needing constant reflashes to try and keep this power consistent. I have owned an STI previously, and the car has a good deal more hp, yet even when it first came out in summer of 2003, it had no reflashes, no tuning issues, loss of power, and runs superbly, even modified in Stage 2. The de-tuned Legacy GT has the power of the Speed 6, but power gains are very easy on that car. The potential is far greater right now, and I believe the reliability is far greater as well. The AWD system itself is more durable. If you wanna disagree that's fine. :)

Mazda may have some nice performing cars, but if you think this 2.3 turbo engine is advanced enough right now for them to reliably make a 300+HP bone stock Speed 6, capable of adding 50whp reliably, you are kidding yourself. They have to play catchup. Yes, they detuned the MS vehicles in the past, but they had to in order for it to handle modifications reliably. They can't put out a high hp car thats ready to instantly handle 50 more WHP like Subaru and Mitsubishi can do. The Speed 6 is not purposely de-tuned. Perhaps in a few years 260-270hp in that engine will be de-tuned.

I wouldn't trust my Speed 6 if I added 50whp, but I would my former STI in a heartbeat. We shall see if they can compete with Subaru and Mitsubishi. I'd love to see them produce a car to compete with the STi and EVO, but I just don't think they can right now. :)

I see what you are saying. Subaru does make solid motors. However, I think you under estimate the reliability of the Mazda.

[MS6S2K]

I see what you are saying. Subaru does make solid motors. However, I think you under estimate the reliability of the Mazda.

I'd love to be wrong about Mazda and turbo/AWD vehicles regarding reliability and durability when modifying or even keeping stock, believe me. I don't doubt Mazda's reliability on regular n/a piston cars. However, I am talking about an unproven, unique, AWD high performanxe, high boost 2.3 turbo engine that's already having hp/tuning issues that are yet to be solved. There are a lot of complicated things in this Speed 6, so the jury is still out, and just because Mazda has made reliable, durable vehicles in the past, doesn't mean this one will be. It's an entirely new ballgame, and a totally different unproven beast with an unproven engine.

I felt this way about my STI in beginning, but then 28k miles later, after I really drove that car hard, and it never even had to see the dealership for anything, and ran perfectly the day I traded it in, and without a doubt that vehicle is capable of lasting a long time, regardless of it's HP. I even had mine modified to stage 1 (extra 20whp and torque) the entire time, and it just felt like it could handle whatever I dished out.

I enjoy this Speed 6 a lot, because of it's friendler character, and better looks, and most importantly no negative attention. For some reason, I just don't feel like I can add 20+whp, and drive it like I drove my STI, and have it last. It feels more fragile to me, especially the clutch and tranny. I could be wrong, but for some reason Subarus feel more solid. Time will tell, and I'd love to be wrong.

If this Speed 6 turns out to be one of the most reliable/durable sports sedans on the market like the STI and Legacy GT already are (according to Consumer Reports and other reviews), then I'll smile from ear to ear when I say I WAS WRONG. I generally don't keep cars past warranty, but I enjoy this Speed 6 so much as a daily commuter/winter beater), I'd actually like to keep it for many years and many many miles. I really do want it to hold up and last a very long time without major headaches. We shall see. :)

[Custommx3]

I think it has to do with where the North American 6's are assembled. Non Ms6's I believe were assembled in the states. MS6's are JDM only.
My 06 5-door 6's VIN shows it as a Ford, yet my MS6 has a Mazda of Japan.

[Donas64]

I agree completely. While I am enamored with with te 2.3 DISI turbo, I'm not totally sold on the reliabilty, long term durability of the motor. As such I'm really looking forward to the new Mazda 6. 250+hp N/A and AWD please.