Engine Swap Begins

[jeffmsp]

Hey guys,

As you all know from my previous thread my motor failed and I am going to be replacing this week. I am wondering if anyone has a check list or how to for removing the motor. I have pulled several motors before but a nice list or how to would be a good reference guide for me while I am going along. I can remove the entire transmission without even looking at a guide ive done it so many times but I have never pulled the entire motor in my Speed so if anyone has some additional pointers or advice that would be great. Looks pretty straightforward, but I dont wanna mess anything up. I think I am going to drop the motor through the bottom, should be easiest.

New Motor is a FS-ZE. I will hopefully be able to get the fsze intake manofold sorted out so it does not produce a cel. I believe this will be the first MSP with FSZE swap done. If there are any others out their with the swap in a msp please chime in i could use any additional advice you may have. Hope I can get my AFC in time before I finish the swap. Going to run stock boost and get it tuned hopefully before the snow hits, should make great numbers at 8psi with 94 octane fuel. (first)

I am starting to remove the motor this weekend and will be picking up the new motor monday, i was suppost to have it last weekend but i have weak friends and nobody wanted to donate a friday night to help me with the loading/unloading of the new motor.

Thanks guys TTYL, Jeff

[GMalatrasi]

What did they new engine come out of?

[yashart_mp3]

I would be very careful. Even at 8psi, the higher compression pistons could cause problems.

My suggestion to you, is to get a unichip or something that can control timing. Install the unichip without the boost controller. You are going to want to pull timing with the high compression pistons, especially if you experience spiking. Just a suggestion

Other than that, I suggest stickers. Yes, cheap color coding stickers. Something like this, that can be found at Staples.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v168/yashart7/s0098945_enl.jpg
Why? For every harnes/ plug you undo. Place (for example) a red sticker on on both sides of a plug. Number each side 1. Next plug you undo, use a yellow and number it 2. And so on and so on. Do this for every single plug that you undo. It will prove be very helpful when re-assembling things.

[Keno1542]

thats a good idea yashart

[noclue119]

IBTBA - (In Before The Boom..... Again) J/K.


Good luck man. Love to see the results.

[B1GHAM]

def. drop compression w/ forged pistons, if not to 8.5:1 atleast to stock MSP compresson (9.1:1).

whats the FS-ZE motor run? 10.1:1? I remember it being rediculously high...

BTW yashart, GREAT IDEA!! its soo simple I didnt even think of it lol..

(Im pulling my engine out for a rebuild and that just makes SENSE)

[Boosted03MSP]

high compression + boost = BOOM!!! Im on my second engine too.lol. Get lower compression rods/pistons. I purchased a ZE to put into my MX6, but havent had the time in i dunno....2 years. LOL

[jeffmsp]

i will be fine. i will use the afc to handle fuel and keep the afs a bit conservative. I am sure I can pull of 8psi considering I was boosting over 12 on 9:1. Just needs tuning. If I decide to go over 8 I will install a J and S ignition. I will use my injection kit to help reduce intake temps, the afc will handle appropriet fuel. Aside from my 3" catless exhaust and steering wheel boost gauge car will appear stock. And if I ever do get to the point where I need to drop the compression I can just add a thicker stronger head gasket, but I doubt I will ever have to do this seeing as how I do not plan to overpower the stock drivetrain. I want a well round stock appearing car thats great on the back roads.

[Fudgie]

For the amount your going to spend on a J&S, why not get an MPI that actually control your timing as oppsed to retarding it after it detects knock. Might be too late at that point.

[jeffmsp]

you can have your base timing set how you want it with the J and S. I change fuel on a daily basis from 94-race gas so the J and S is a must for me if I wanna start boosting over 8psi. For now Im sure 8psi is fine for winte, snow will be everywhere anyways. The MPINick stage one T25 upgrade is next on the shopping list to help releave some backpressure and add some more top end grunt and a blkzoomzoom knock off "stock" IC to finish the package by the summer. Should be a crazy car at 10psi with good gas and my injection kit and cost me less than a stock fsde motor.

[dominoy2k1]

taking it out the bottom. hmm.. id take it out through the top with an engine hoist. seemed easier that way when i rebuilt mine.

[TheMAN]

trusting a high compression TURBO engine on an s-afc, real smart :rolleyes:

just so you know, turbo'd FS-ZEs have been done already, so you're not the first

[jeffmsp]

really ive dropped several 1.8ls bp this way and the process was quite smooth.

[jeffmsp]

[quote\trusting a high compression TURBO engine on an s-afc, real smart

just so you know, turbo'd FS-ZEs have been done already, so you're not the first
[/quote]

Ya cause 8psi is high boost..and the compression difference is not that signifigant a risk considering it will be properly tuned and have good gas. If DSMAFC was the weak link it would have showed up when I was boosting 14psi on 9.1:1 compression. The dsmafc is nice, have you ever tried or are you saying this cause some guy told you so? Ive tuned with it firsthand, ill be fine.i know im not the first person to turbo a ze i said ze in a msp. (insert smiley to make me look cool here)

[jeffmsp]

enough talk ill post back with pics.Figuring I might as well try to port the exhaust mani as best I can while its off the motor. HP numbers to come of course whenever this ordeal is finished as well as nice pics.

[CustomMSP]

trusting a high compression TURBO engine on an s-afc, real smart :rolleyes:

just so you know, turbo'd FS-ZEs have been done already, so you're not the first

He's not referring to the Apexi s-AFC, but the Split Second fuel management system sold by DSMConvert.

[sandspeed]

nice jeff...sounds like its going to be a pretty cool setup. What kind of hp numbers are you looking for on 8psi, should b pretty quick up top (rpm)

[yashart_mp3]

Jeff,

You asked for peoples input... what were you expecting? If you wont listen to us, why ask for our input?

Please hear us out. high compression + boost = bad idea. PLEASE do yourself a favor and get an MPI or unichip.... SOMETHING that can control timing.

Yes, the AFC is a great unit and works well on most MSP's. But you must remember there is more to tuning than just fuel and AFR's. Yes, the AFC will give you more than enough fuel, but it cant control timing!Using a J&S is not the way to go. Like others have said, why not solve the problem before it starts. A J&S is a great backup, for example a bad tank of gas. I would install a J&S in addition to an EMS that control timing, just to be safe.

Nobody wants to say "i told you so" a couple months from now.

[TheMAN]

something tells me that he's so smart that he won't post about his motor being blown in a few months

[jeffmsp]

the J and S can control your base timing.


something tells me that he's so smart that he won't post about his motor being blown in a few months

thats what people said about 14psi on stock motor. 100,000kms later and it was the twisties that took out the bottom end. Why do you think detonation is going to be a problem at 8psi. I have fuel control managed with good fuel at my local pump, 3" catless exhaust to help with EGT and backpressure, colder plugs, a better flowing intake and exhaust manifold and tuning.

[yashart_mp3]

Holly hell! The FS-ZE has 10.4:1 compression ratio!

I say your motor will last all of 10mins @ 8psi.

LOL, suite yourself buddy.... Can't say we didnt try to warn and HELP you(poke)

[low_psi]

I would defiantely use your meth injection. Stock MSP timing isn't that aggressive but your cylinder pressures are going to be higher, which as you know means more heat.

Apocman probably still has a a thick Cometic headgasket laying around. I don't know if he plans to use it, but it'd be worth finding out how much it drops compression.

[jeffmsp]

should make as much stress on the motor as 10-12psi on stock compression and if things ever did become unamanagable I can always replace head gasket with thicker one but trust me a tuned 8psi will go nice as long as EGT and Afs stay in check and I keep good fuel in the tank.

[Blake]

PM LinuxRacr, he ran FS-ZE and it was A BAD IDEA!

[Blake]

http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1419&highlight=fs-ze



IT BLEW UP

[jeffmsp]

there is no useful info in that thread aside from the guy showing his mint fsze pro5. Some guy says at the end that he never got it working. From what I understand he blew it on nitrous. The only argument I see holding me back is that the cylinder head is not as effiecient as say a honda or toyota design, that is why I am limiting to 8psi for now. In the sprint I wanna do the MPI Stage 1 upgrade and some cylinder head work along with a nicer SMIC and turn things up to 10psi along with the J and S. Looking for a huge powerband and great throttle responce. Along with a new aftermarket oil pan this should really balance the car out and make it really fun to drive without worrying about detroying the trans and diff. and blowing another motor from oil starvation on the rod bearings.

[jeffmsp]

. We have added numerous new features including an on-board Map Sensor to control boost retard.


http://www.jandssafeguard.com/safeguard.html

[69RMSP]

I say buy rods/pistons instead of the j&s and lower the comp. You can do the build yourself you silly wabbit

[Moeed]

Shit let the guy do what he wants. If it fucks up, its his money.

[jeffmsp]

or i could build the car i want and have fun in the twisties and back roads instead of building a qm whore that blows a tranny once a month.lol. all the punk kids I wanted to beat, i beat. people were like fuck how did it do that. now I want a well rounded car and can get this motor for such a good deal, id be dumb not too. id rather spend the cash for rods on suspension and tires. It will be plenty fast, just fast enough to beat your mint fmic strapped to the ugly yellowmsp 69 oh you know the show down is coming. Im gonna killz that yellowmsp of yours haha.jk sure wish i kept that sexy fmic now dont i haha. and buy the damn afc with me already lol

[Blake]

you will blow it up, I'm guaranteeing it.

[jeffmsp]

guess we will see what it can do. I have no worries, it wil be done right with plenty of good fuel and my injection kit for safety. Combustion temps will be reduced by the plugs, the injection and the reduced backpressure. If deto still cant be avoided Ill back off the boost until I can make the cylinder head more efficient. I think with my mods and tuning it will be fine at 8psi. We will see, hence the point of this thread.

[noclue119]

you will blow it up, I'm guaranteeing it.

My money is on the rods bending. I just spent $200 on brakes and i am bitching about that. So some people jsut have money

[jeffmsp]

i just spent the same on my front. rotors and got nice pads too. got new rears too but they are just sitting here, still do not need to replace after 100,000kms of fun driving, stock pads

dont think i will bend a rod unless i go over 250whp. 14psi with 9:1 ran great before so I have found they can take some beating, but again this is 8psi, im not breaking 250whp here guys, this is a low boost setup it will be fine. Im looking for some creative thinking from you guys. I already know what the drawbacks are I am looking to make the system more efficient while remaining somewhat stock appearing. Next on the list like I was saying before was the mpi nick turbo upgrade (for reasons I explained earlier) some cylinder head work and a blkzoomzoom style upgraded smic. All tuned for 10psi. Thats my like "goal" but as explained I am going to start low and gradually work my way up. If I could manage to grab a tubular exhaust mani this setup would be worth "going for broke" but for now I just wanna get the car rolling and tuned in a decent timeframe. Im not interested in building the motor, I dont need to go that fast.

[69RMSP]

when were both done it should be a good run :D

its would be better if you found someone who can "actully" drive your car for you though :)

[yashart@work]

yup, im guessing bent rod as well.

[jeffmsp]

lol and why is that. The rod wont bend unless you go over 250whp. we have been over this. Did you bend a rod at less then 250WHP? Then why are you making these comments. Unless you actually bent a rod which you didnt then how the heck do you know what you guys are talking about. There will be no more stress on the rods then there would be boosting over 10psi on stock compression. Its the combustion process that I am worried about not the rod strength.

[yashart@work]

lol and why is that. The rod wont bend unless you go over 250whp. we have been over this. Did you bend a rod at less then 250WHP? Then why are you making these comments. Unless you actually bent a rod which you didnt then how the heck do you know what you guys are talking about. There will be no more stress on the rods then there would be boosting over 10psi on stock compression. Its the combustion process that I am worried about not the rod strength.

Why a bent rod? Because everyone knows (except you) that it is the weakest component in our engine.

Where are you getting this 250whp number from!?!? If there is one thing we have all learned, its that the MSP breaks when it wants to. There have been plenty of people who have blown their engines with less mods & less boost. If anything, 220whp is a more realistic number of where people start to run into problems (without an ems).

What I dont understand is why you wont listen. Your idea of buying a SMIC and turning up the boost is completely unrealstic! There is no such thing as high and low boost with high compression pistons. There is NO boost with high compression pistons. Period! Are you forgetting that the FS-ZE has the same weak rods as any other FS engine?

Seriously, just take a step back and think about it. Use the search button and READ. The general rule with the MSP, is no more than 10-12psi, no matter what mods you have. Most people get 8.5:1 pistons, so that they can turn up the boost. How many people do you see getting 9.5:1 (let alone 10.4:1) and turning up the boost? It just doesnt make sense! High compression pistons are made for all out NA cars, not boosted cars. (poke)

If you must install the FSZE, get yourself a P5 ECU and an AWR or OBX header. The fs-ze should prove to be peppy and have great throttle response in that configuration. The stock P5 ECU should give you more than enough fuel to compensate for the higher compression.

This is the last time I will voice my opinion. I am simply trying to warn you that this is a bad idea, and to stop you while you are ahead. Best of luck

[Blake]

What he said ^.^

[1Sleepy93]

If he can tune it he'll be fine and have great low end with the higher compression. Trick is to get it tuned before it lets go and not get greedy for more power.

[Blake]

High Compression+Turbo=TOOOO MUCH COMPRESSION. It will instantly start to detonate in boost.

[Blake]

Especially on stock ignition timing.

[noclue119]

Hey i just want to see the progress and any updates. And of course any failures.

[jeffmsp]

ok first of all:

1. There is NOT ONE GOD DAMN documented case of a properly tuned MSP or any FSDE breaking its rods at less then 250WHP. STOP THE GOD DAMN INTERNET TALK. SHOW ME ONE GOD DAMND FSDE THAT BLEW A ROD THAT WAS PROPERLY TUNED AND HAD SUPPORTING MODS. THERE ARENT ANY SO STFU AND STAY THE FUCK OUT OF MY THREAD YOU INTERNET BULLSHITTER.

I SEE PEOPLE BLOW THEM THAT ARE RETARDS AND PEOPLE THAT BLOW THEM OVER 250WHP.

2.
It will instantly start to detonate in boost.[/QUOTE

YES IF I WAS A RETARD AND RAN 91 OCTANE GAS I WOULD BE FUCKED. I AM RUNNING 94 AND HAVE METHENOL INJECTION, COLDER PLUGS AND LESS BACKPRESSURE. MORE THEN ENOUGH TO KEEP DETONATION AWAY AT 8PSI.

3. [QUOTE]Especially on stock ignition timing.

Should be fine at 8psi. If its not, ill back it to 6psi until I get the J and S.

4.
there is one thing we have all learned, its that the MSP breaks when it wants to.

this is the stupisest thing you have ever said. Maybe people who dont know what the fuck they are doing, maybe you are one of them.

[jeffmsp]

ok first of all:

1. There is NOT ONE GOD DAMN documented case of a properly tuned MSP or any FSDE breaking its rods at less then 250WHP. STOP THE GOD DAMN INTERNET TALK. SHOW ME ONE GOD DAMND FSDE THAT BLEW A ROD THAT WAS PROPERLY TUNED AND HAD SUPPORTING MODS. THERE ARENT ANY SO STFU AND STAY THE FUCK OUT OF MY THREAD YOU INTERNET BULLSHITTER. JUST CAUSE A COUPLE NOOBS BOUGHT A JOEP MBC AND BLEW THEIR SHIT UP THE WHOLE COMMUNITY TURNS INTO A BUNCH OF PUSSIES, 14PSI, 100,00KMS AND NO PROBLEMS. IF YOU CANT GET SIMILAR RESULTS YOU ARE DOING SOMETHING WRONG!~!!!!!!!!!

I SEE PEOPLE BLOW THEM THAT ARE RETARDS AND PEOPLE THAT BLOW THEM OVER 250WHP.

2.
It will instantly start to detonate in boost.[/QUOTE

YES IF I WAS A RETARD AND RAN 91 OCTANE GAS I WOULD BE FUCKED. I AM RUNNING 94 AND HAVE METHENOL INJECTION, COLDER PLUGS AND LESS BACKPRESSURE. MORE THEN ENOUGH TO KEEP DETONATION AWAY AT 8PSI.

3. [QUOTE]Especially on stock ignition timing.

Should be fine at 8psi. If its not, ill back it to 6psi until I get the J and S.

4.
there is one thing we have all learned, its that the MSP breaks when it wants to.

this is the stupisest thing you have ever said. Maybe people who dont know what the fuck they are doing, maybe you are one of them.

[Blake]

1. There is NOT ONE GOD DAMN documented case of a properly tuned MSP or any FSDE breaking its rods at less then 250WHP. STOP THE GOD DAMN INTERNET TALK. SHOW ME ONE GOD DAMND FSDE THAT BLEW A ROD THAT WAS PROPERLY TUNED AND HAD SUPPORTING MODS. THERE ARENT ANY SO STFU AND STAY THE FUCK OUT OF MY THREAD YOU INTERNET BULLSHITTER. JUST CAUSE A COUPLE NOOBS BOUGHT A JOEP MBC AND BLEW THEIR SHIT UP THE WHOLE COMMUNITY TURNS INTO A BUNCH OF PUSSIES, 14PSI, 100,00KMS AND NO PROBLEMS. IF YOU CANT GET SIMILAR RESULTS YOU ARE DOING SOMETHING WRONG!~!!!!!!!!!

This is where you are wrong, there have been cases of the msp blowing up at STOCK BOOST. 150 hp, 100 under what your stating your running. And even N/A Motors blowing up!. Dude you asked for opinions, mine is very firm. This motor will not last long. High Compression and Boost do not go together, get you some stock pistons from the fsde and swap em out. That is your best bet.

[low_psi]

There is no such thing as high and low boost with high compression pistons. There is NO boost with high compression pistons. Period!

Extremely untrue. Please explain to me how Hondas running 10.2:1+ CRs manage to not blow up.

Jeff, have you thought about port matching the intake manifold and head? I don't know how much material you can take out of the exhaust manifold and ports, but the intake side can defiantely be opened up. I know you mentioned porting the exhaust manifold earlier in the thread. Let me know what you end up porting.

[jeffmsp]

Sorry For Being A Bastard And Bashing People, But This Weak Rod Bullshit Stops Here. Unless Someone Can Show Me Evidence Of Someone Breaking A Rod At Less Than 250whp Properly Tuned With Supporting Mods Then Just Stop The Internet Bullshit. Blkzoomzoom Made 200 Qm Passes Between 270-290whp Estimate, I Ran 14psi For 3 Years 100,00kms No Problems. Just Cause You People Dont Know Shit About Modding Your Car Doesnt Mean The Rods Cant Hold 250 Or Less. No More Bullshit Show Me Evidence Or Stfu.

[jeffmsp]

Jeff, have you thought about port matching the intake manifold and head? I don't know how much material you can take out of the exhaust manifold and ports, but the intake side can defiantely be opened up. I know you mentioned porting the exhaust manifold earlier in the thread. Let me know what you end up porting

going to the leave the intake manifold for now, should not be holding me back as the fsze is the best fs IM you can get, if I ever take it apart ya I would port match.

[jeffmsp]

This is where you are wrong, there have been cases of the msp blowing up at STOCK BOOST. 150 hp, 100 under what your stating your running

im sorry but these people must drive like retard and wot 5th up a hill or they got a bad motor from the factory. im not BSING Ive boosted for years the FS, i am talking out of experience,which is more than i can say for the rest of you

Especially at ONLY 8psi I mean come on thats not much power at all, you guys are just paranoid. I doubt I will break 220whp.

and sorry to anyone i offended,i am being a prick right now, i am mad and stuck at work 5 hours from home and all i can think about is getting the new motor in the car before it snows lol

[Blake]

N/A Blown
http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123650248&highlight=zoom+boom

12 Psi With Timing Control!
http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123644490&highlight=zoom+boom

STOCK BOOST, STOCK TIMING, NO MODS
http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123630385&highlight=zoom+boom

10-11 Psi
http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123630676&highlight=zoom+boom

[low_psi]

oh yea, I forgot the ZE manifold was different. any luck with pulling the motor?

[Blake]

ZE Mani does not have vtcs

[Shift_Lost]

All power to you!
Im a honda guy at heart, Preferably an H22 accord kinda guy not a Civic fan

and the h22 runs 10.1 or 11.1
I have heard numerous talk about boosting with that compression being HARD!

but you seem to atleast have a plan. so all the power to you, If i lived near you i would love to be involved. would like to see results.

POST PICS!

[Blake]

Lol, your saying that these guys don't have experience? LinuxRacr was one of the first to be boosted. He will tell you str8 up its not a good idea. Ive worked on cars my whole life, boosted and N/A I know what works, and the proof is in the pudding. Anytime I bring up evidence your just gonna say that they drive like morons. So good luck, its your money, I was just trying to help. You asked for it, and I'm done. But please don't post up slander, like I have no experience.

[Jaysanooch]

Sorry For Being A Bastard And Bashing People, But This Weak Rod Bullshit Stops Here. Unless Someone Can Show Me Evidence Of Someone Breaking A Rod At Less Than 250whp Properly Tuned With Supporting Mods Then Just Stop The Internet Bullshit. Blkzoomzoom Made 200 Qm Passes Between 270-290whp Estimate, I Ran 14psi For 3 Years 100,00kms No Problems. Just Cause You People Dont Know Shit About Modding Your Car Doesnt Mean The Rods Cant Hold 250 Or Less. No More Bullshit Show Me Evidence Or Stfu.

I was all interested in your build but now...not so much. Hey good for you for trying something different...hope it works out but EASY THERE TOUGH GUY!!! Man the way your acting...I bet people including me are thinkin....he wants evidence ok then...keep up with this build and there's your damm evidence. Jeez!

[low_psi]

Blake, he's going to have to be careful with the boost level, but methanol injection is a big key here. Maybe I will do the calcs later today to compare effective compression between the DE and ZE pistons at various boost levels. I'm interested to see how they compare.

[Blackrose]

going to the leave the intake manifold for now, should not be holding me back as the fsze is the best fs IM you can get, if I ever take it apart ya I would port match.

The 626 Mani is the best "dyno proven" IM for the 3rd Gen Pro. I could be wrong.

[Blake]

I pray that it does work for his sake. But from the research ive done, and from what I've gathered, its not a good idea.

[Blackrose]

Blake, he's going to have to be careful with the boost level, but methanol injection is a big key here. Maybe I will do the calcs later today to compare effective compression between the DE and ZE pistons at various boost levels. I'm interested to see how they compare.

The meth injection is Huge. But it does make things more complicated. First you have to really know how much is needed when. Then you have to understand how Methy changes AFR readings and how to tune for that. Then you will need to get a Very very good tune on the car. I think w/o forged rods it will be risky, but doable. Just remeber to take your time while tuning it because you will have almost no room for error. And if you are going this route bigger injectors are a must. A standalone would be a good idea also.

I meet a guy about 3 moths ago at the track. He had a brand new SI with a 125 shot of N20 and a piggy back configured for it and that car was a monster. Yes i know FI and N20 are a bit different but we are talking about cylinder pressure here. It can be done.

[yashart@work]

Extremely untrue. Please explain to me how Hondas running 10.2:1+ CRs manage to not blow up.

Extremely untrue? Hardly. It is VERY true in most cases. You know this too. MOST engine builders drop compression ratio whether they are building an all out drag monster, or a fun reliable daily driver.

We are talking "in general". How many people do you know that are rebuilding an engine, and using high compression pistons? Slim to none. Why? Because the general rule of thumb is less high compression = NA. You can't dispute that.

Also, you CANNOT compare most honda engines to our FS engine. Look at the k20a, H22, yada yada yada. MOST honda engines are built alot stronger than our FS engine. You cannot dispute that either. Lets be realistic about it here....


Im sorry Jeff, but after you asshole posts--- lets just say I'll be watching this thread closely for your "results"

[Blackrose]

The rods are the biggest issue in the whole build..... the only reason i mentioned the honda guy was because it was high compression + very high Cyl press. There is no doubt about hondas motors being better built. My point is he had no detonation. And that is the main part of making this happen. Avoiding detonation....


We are talking "in general". How many people do you know that are rebuilding an engine, and using high compression pistons? Slim to none. Why? Because the general rule of thumb is less high compression = NA. You can't dispute that.

Also, you CANNOT compare most honda engines to our FS engine. Look at the k20a, H22, yada yada yada. MOST honda engines are built alot stronger than our FS engine. You cannot dispute that either. Lets be realistic about it here....


Im sorry Jeff, but after your asshole posts, I am looking foward to saying "I told you so"

[yashart@work]

The rods are the biggest issue in the whole build..... the only reason i mentioned the honda guy was because it was high compression + very high Cyl press. There is no doubt about hondas motors being better built. My point is he had no detonation. And that is the main part of making this happen. Avoiding detonation....


My comment was addressed to Low_psi. I agree with you though, I know it can be done and has been done, and If I were going to attempt such a feat, it would be with a honda engine. And yes, the stock rods are what is going to fail on Jeff. Although Jeff claims to have more experience than all of us, his attitude and "plan of action" shows must of us that he really has no idea what he is doing.

[low_psi]

We are talking "in general". How many people do you know that are rebuilding an engine, and using high compression pistons? Slim to none. Why? Because the general rule of thumb is less high compression = NA. You can't dispute that.

No one is talking "in general." I know of plenty FI engines that have been built with increased compression, because I've talked to the builders. You stated that boost and high compression ratios(what is considered high?) are bad, period. That is simply untrue. Stop making blanket statements, then trying to cover them by saying "most," atleast standby your statements.

You say, 10.x CR + boost is IMPOSSIBLE("no boost, period)", but Hondas run like that everyday... the engine comparison isn't out of the question. Honda motors crack piston ring lands rather than trash rods like an FS-DE. Every motor has its weakness.

Its usually best to not look to the tuner market for golden standards. Just because a lot of people do something, does not mean it is the only way. You keep saying a turbo FSZE can't be done reliably but you have no data to prove this.

[69RMSP]

Do you consdier the stock tune a proper tune?



This is where you are wrong, there have been cases of the msp blowing up at STOCK BOOST. 150 hp, 100 under what your stating your running. And even N/A Motors blowing up!. Dude you asked for opinions, mine is very firm. This motor will not last long. High Compression and Boost do not go together, get you some stock pistons from the fsde and swap em out. That is your best bet.

[low_psi]

Here you can see 8psi w/ ZE pistons has slightly less ECR than 12psi w/ DE pistons.

PS- Hate on.

[69RMSP]

Nice find


Here you can see 8psi w/ ZE pistons has slightly less ECR than 12psi w/ DE pistons.

PS- Hate on.

[low_psi]

I made it :)

[Blake]

I made it :)
Marc we are talking stock ignition timing mang. You know as well as I do, that it will knock. If he gets an ems with timing control, hed be in a better seat than he is now. But if he is gonna run stock timing with fuel control, it can only lead to a problematic time for him.

[jeffmsp]

yasart and blake sorry for being a prick, just how i get sometimes. Seriously though I dont know what you people are doing to blow these motors. No way i had a factory freak. Its friday night and i need to get laid ill tty guys later

[69RMSP]

even better..


must be nice jeff, im gonna be stuck at work till 2 am :/


I made it :)

[low_psi]

Marc we are talking stock ignition timing mang. You know as well as I do, that it will knock. If he gets an ems with timing control, hed be in a better seat than he is now. But if he is gonna run stock timing with fuel control, it can only lead to a problematic time for him.

True, having timing control would be a big plus. But the stock timing isn't that aggressive. With meth injection, I'm curious if 8psi is do-able.

What I believe happens with the Split Second AFC is once you start reducing the MAF voltage past a certain point, the timing starts to retard in addition to the injector pulse. This is because the ECU is seeing a temp reading from the IAT but also a "warmer" reading from the MAF and it decides to pull timing. Depending on how much Jeff has to adjust his fueling, he could see timing changes(either + or -).

[yashart_mp3]

No one is talking "in general." I know of plenty FI engines that have been built with increased compression, because I've talked to the builders. You stated that boost and high compression ratios(what is considered high?) are bad, period. That is simply untrue. Stop making blanket statements, then trying to cover them by saying "most," atleast standby your statements.

You say, 10.x CR + boost is IMPOSSIBLE("no boost, period)", but Hondas run like that everyday... the engine comparison isn't out of the question. Honda motors crack piston ring lands rather than trash rods like an FS-DE. Every motor has its weakness.

Its usually best to not look to the tuner market for golden standards. Just because a lot of people do something, does not mean it is the only way. You keep saying a turbo FSZE can't be done reliably but you have no data to prove this.


Stand by statements? I DO. I am talking in general. You know nothing in this world is 100% absolute. There are exceptions to every "rule". I am not trying to change my arguement. I am simply trying to get you to agree with me that MOST engine builders drop compresssion when doing an FI engine build. I am not making blanket statements. Im simply saying what is generally known. High compression and FI is usually a bad thing.

I never once said that 10.4 CR's + Boost was impossible. I am saying that doing this build (10.4:1 compression with 8psi without timing control, and then installing a smic later and turning up the boost) is just silly stupid, especially with our weak rods. You are picking out the exception to the rule with hondas. Honda makes some of the strongest and best build engines in the market. Yes, honda's do blow engines as well too, but not nearly as easily as our FS.

There is no reason to insult me. I am done with this thread. I wish him the best of luck.

[jeffmsp]

The reason Honda motors can take a decent amount of boost while having high compression is because they have combustion chambers that are excellent at surpressing detonation and are very efficient. This is why i do not plan to boost over 8psi without at least a better flowing turbo and manifold to relieve heat and backpressure, an upgrading SMIC to further reduce intake temps(the injection alone would be enough without even having an intercooler so trust me a smic will be fine if not overkill, chemical intercooling is very effective and the methenol injection is also key for reducing intake temps, cylinder head temps and combustion temps while largely reducing the chance of detonation as you are mixing the air with a highly potent fuel) WOW 6 pages already

[jeffmsp]

I wish him the best of luck.

thanks, and if it does blow Ill put you up there on the list of told ya so's

[kamon8404]

I don't see why it wouldn't work. Yes, the higher compression will not allow high boost apps sure, but as stated like 30 times in this thread he will be running 8 psi. So, he should be alright inless something goes thats uncontrollable.

Do you plan on swapping the rods and pistons at a later date to run higher boost?

[orng1]

I could see this happening with a J&S and the meth injection. With those two things it may work out for him. This thread has gotten long, curious to see how it turns out.

[Green2000~ES]

Hows the pull going?? I pulled my 1.8 out the top and replaced it with a 30k less mileage motor after locking up my first one.. went hella smooth.. just disconect the engine from the trans, seperate em andmake sure you have support under the trans if your not pulling it out.. I left the trans in the car, pulled the old replaced it with the new.. bolted it in, reconnected the wires, fired it up... been driving it ever since... hardest part was not having a spline tool to realign the input shaft :( but i managed... Good luck!!

I want to get a dif engine to mod and swap now...

[jeffmsp]

UPDATE: DSM AFC Ver 2 on the way from John. Shopping wideband tomorrow. Picking up wrx 440s from guy in toronto tomorrow. The list goes on..

[jeffmsp]

booooooo ENGINE SWAP CANCELLED! ENGINE REPLACEMENT STARTS TONIGHT LOL After all that BS I went to go pick up the motor today. shop called J K Japanese engines on Finch and Dufferin area. very very shady place. many ..."uneducated" people all of the places yelling and complaining about stuff jabbering in languages that I could not make out for a damn. back to story i finnally get the guy there hagi to help me and we go see the motor. to my surprise the first thing I notice is the lack of black resonator box on the intake manifold. wtf is this motor i asked the guy. i want a fsze, you told me twice you have a JDM FSZE motor from a famillia. he says ya this is fs-ze. here is paperwork showing it came out of jspec familia and shipping receipts from japan. I spend about 5 mins looking over the motor. Head is marked FS9 motor has FS01 dipstick strange looking intake manifold. I did not have any tools to remove the valve cover and check the cams. I am pretty sure this motor is from a jspec mazda van as THE MAN described in an old thread. I am not 100% sure and I really didnt want to buy a motor that I dont even know wtf it is. I dont think it was a FP as I didnt see FP anywhere on the block. It was also mated to a torque converter so it was from an auto which is making me think even more that it was from the van. I figured fuck it, this could have been cool but I dont wanna plop down 900 for the motor and the guy would not include any accessories or warranty and this place is shady as hell. If any of you guys are going to get a motor from there check it out before paying(they expected me to pay before even seeing the motor lol) I was all pissed off and drove the hour home from the shop. I went onto car-part.com and as luck would have it a motor was at a place called AADCO in Brampton.I went to the place to check it out. Compression tested 205-220 accross all cylinders. It came with a flywheel and clutch. The guy charged me $700 and included a 60 day warranty on the motor, and if I have any problems said they can look over the install and help troubleshoot. It was like a night and day difference than the first shop. First guy was mad shady, these guy were as organized and presentable as a company like UPS. I would heavily reccomend dealing with these people if anyone needs contact info give me a PM. I think they have another motor there from an auto P5. Sorry for all the ecitement for no reason. Pics of new motor tonight once I get it out of the hatch of my escort. came with stock i/e manifolds too. 626 manfold shopping tomorrow, cant wait for afc to arrive.

[Blake]

Good.

[1Sleepy93]

Well so much for a turbo FS-ZE. That's too bad.

[Brian MP5T]

But This Weak Rod Bullshit Stops Here. Unless Someone Can Show Me Evidence Of Someone Breaking A Rod At Less Than 250whp Properly Tuned With Supporting Mods Then Just Stop The Internet Bullshit.

People have bent and broke rods even stock, I think you have a good set of supporting mode to back up your build..

[69RMSP]

Thats because the stock tune sucks ceck


People have bent and broke rods even stock, I think you have a good set of supporting mode to back up your build..

[projectmx]

sad to see this didn't happen... i'm building a Bp Dohc currently that is going to run 10.2 - 10.5:1 compression and will be running turbo in about a year or two and i've gotten a lot of grief about how its too risky

[jeffmsp]

there are lots of 10:1 turbo miatas making great power, but they are using the newer style cylinder head that outflows the stock n/a fwd head im pretty sure. pics tonight! Motor is on the engine picker in my garage. i have to go take 4 bolts out of the tranny in the MS so I can mount the new motor to the stand. Motor seems to be in great shape, like I said earlier 205-220 comp. Even got the stock ex mani

[projectmx]

in the Bp's the NA head from usdm flow's better than the gtr and gtx heads plus mine is ported and polished and portmatched check out the pics on my www.projectmx.net (http://www.projectmx.net) site

have you taken off the valve cover to see how the cylinder head looks yet?

[mspHtown]

how is everything going? update!

[kamon8404]

I wanna see pics of the motor!!!

[jeffmsp]

fuck i roke my digi cam cell phone an none of my immediate friends have them,. 69rmsp come to my house and take some pictures, I will give you beer and that motor mount I sold you a year ago and you never took home. The motor is in great shape, I popped the valve cover and it looks nicer than my original motor. I took the stock exhaust manifold off tonight so if anyone needs a spare n/a manifold shoot me a PM. Doing the 626 intake manifold tomorrow I hopes. Started pulling the old motor, got all the small stuff out of the way.

I am still open to suggestions to others that pulled the motor before, I have a picker I have high jackstands, is it easier to pull out from the top with a picker or should I drop it through the bottom? Would you guys reccomend seperateing it from the tranny first or take it out as one unit? It is 4 above freezing today so I will be trying to get as much done as I can in the 2 hours I have to work on the car lol.

[jeffmsp]

removed exhaust manifold and intake manifold. cleaned stuff. adam come take pics already.

[jeffmsp]

does anyone have a cell that can send pictures to email? I just got the new MIKE phone with Telus through my work and took a bunch of pictures of the new motor, pulling the old motor etc. but i cant send to email only other phones and i dont have a digi cam :( Swap is more than underway, engine is out, afc v2 is here, injectors and IM still being shopped. New motor is mint popped the valve cover and everything looks great.

[jeffmsp]

when i bought the new motor they gave me the vin of the LX that it came out of. If i go to a dealer and give them the vin will they be able to tell me what service had been done at mazda dealers?