Nitrogen

[mixmasterlove]

Has anyone every heard of using NITROGEN instead of air in thier tires? If so what are the benefits AND can I do it if I have the TPMS??

[Shadow102]

Alot of dealerships are going to this. Its a pretty quick and easy way to make money. Being a tech at a dealership i tend to just do it for free to all of my tires since it does have benfits. However i have heard of some porsche places charging upwards of $90 for it. If they are asking in the $40 range and your tires are pretty much brand new it is a good idea as it will extend the life of them.

[sephiroth]

extend the tread life or sidewall life??

[mixmasterlove]

http://www.nitrogendirect.com/N2Info.htm

[Equinox]

Nitrogen molecules are larger than oxygen and have a harder time permeating the wall of the tire. Therefore, maintains pressure longer. Constant correct pressure gains tons of benefits.

[mixmasterlove]

I think I might switch over on monday, depending on how much they want for all 4 + the spare. They also RECOMMEND it for the TPMS (which I have), saying it helps to avoid false alarms.

[Otto]

Since the air is already like 78% nitrogen, I'd only get this done if it's free. Yes, 100% nitrogen will keep the pressure in the tire longer but it's hardly worth $40. If anyone claims other benefits like increased mileage, this is simply not true. Just my .02 :)

[Zoomey]

If you have a Costco membership it's free. Best I've found is $35 for all five tires if you don't have a Costco card.

[Shadow102]

Since the air is already like 78% nitrogen, I'd only get this done if it's free. Yes, 100% nitrogen will keep the pressure in the tire longer but it's hardly worth $40. If anyone claims other benefits like increased mileage, this is simply not true. Just my .02 :)

the nitrogen fill gets the air in the tire up to 97% nitrogen. The biggest thing is that the nitrogen doesnt contain water which is the main culprit of eating the rubber inside the tire and also making the presure fluctuate. Like i said this is of great benefit on a new set of tires to get some more milage out of them.

[5280_CX-7]

Who the hell keeps tires long enough to have moisture rot them out?

In my experience the only real world difference is the nitrogen is a little springier then air.
Most of your air leakage is not from seepage through the tire rubber but from leaky valves.

[9Hooker]

It seems like everyone is throwing in their two cents.

Taken from another web forum debunking this using SCIENCE! :)
The question about nitrogen in tires has come up in other lists on the web as well. Let me clarrify a few points.

1. Air is 78% nitrogen, N2, and 21% oxygen, O2. So even if you put air in the tire, it's already 78% nitrogen. Many of the so called nitrogen generators don't produce much more than 90% nitrogen.

2. At relatively low pressures (ie tire pressures) N2, O2 and water vapor will all behave as ideal gases, and follow PV=nRT. Pressure will increase or decrease to the same extent as the temperature increases or decreases regardless of which gas is in the tire. (Even at 300 psi, which is about 20 atm, there is little deviation from ideality.) Therefore the comments about N2 not changing in pressure as the temperature changes are without merit.

3. The rate of effusion (or diffusion) of a gas through a porous membrane depends on the molar mass and to some degree on the molecular diameter. N2 and O2 are almost the same size and N2 is lighter than O2 (28 g/mol vs 32 g/mol) so if either gas were to effuse out of the tire, nitrogen would do it more quickly. Luckily, tires are designed not to be porous membranes.

4. N2 and O2 both have essentially the same specific heat capacity, about 1.0 J/gK, and thermal conductivity, about 0.00026 W/cmK. Water vapor has a specific heat capacity of about 2 J/gK. But remember, water vapor will constitute less than 1% of the air in the tire. So the idea that N2 has different heat handling properties is also without merit.

5. The ozone, O3, in the atmosphere, which is a ground level pollutant, will do a great deal more damage to your tires than the O2 inside the tire. For instance, don't leave a condom out in the air in Los Angeles for a few days. It will develop lots of tiny holes and weaken.

spdracer22 says that dry air is preferably to air with a lot of water vapor. As a tire heats up, the very small amount of H2O present will be in the vapor state which may contribute to the overall pressure very slightly.

Several have suggested that N2 in a high pressure tank is more portable and requires no electricity. That would make sense, particularly for aircraft tires.

I find no reason to believe that N2 is going to produce a "better ride" or "better handling".

The bottom line is that for general passenger car tires or truck tires there is nothing to be gained (other than portability) by using nitrogen rather than air. The biggest gain will be $$$ by the companies that sell nitrogen handling equipment and the tire merchants that appeal to ignorant customers. And who is the biggest loser? Yep, the consumer.

found here: http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=120996&page=1

[otmsp]

my friend had this done on his srt4 with 18's and it rides alot smoother ....I so want it ..he paid $6 per tire.

[5280_CX-7]

I work for a large Aerospace Company as a Senior Research Tech. so I have access to many things that most people don't have access to. Like both Gaseous (GN2) and Liquid Nitrogen (LN2). I filled the tires on one of our LN2 bottle carts with GN2, only because our air lines have oil in them to lube air powered tools. It makes a mess of your tires over time.
The only real world difference I could see was a little more bounce to the tires when filled with GN2 as opposed to regular air. They seemed "springier" over the bumps.
I have access to GN2 and could fill my tires with the boil-off from an LN2 tank, no moisture there! But I personally don't think it's worth the hassle even if it's free.

[koala]

my friend had this done on his srt4 with 18's and it rides alot smoother ....I so want it ..he paid $6 per tire.

I think it might be the $6 per tire making it feel smoother. ;)

[azcat]

I think it might be the $6 per tire making it feel smoother. ;)

Yeah, forget all that science and fact stuff. Lightening the vehicle by $24 would definitely make it feel springier. :rolleyes:

[koala]

Yeah, forget all that science and fact stuff. Lightening the vehicle by $24 would definitely make it feel springier. :rolleyes:

Air already contains 78% nitrogen... so even if you're lucky enough to get your tires filled with 92-96% "pure" nitrogen, I'm sure the difference would be very small.

It's similar to adding a cold air intake. Most people claim to feel 10 HP difference, when in reality, your butt dyno isn't going to be able to notice 10 HP.

Is it better than using regular air? Certainly. It's just that the difference is very small.

To me, the benefit I see of using "pure" nitrogen to fill tires comes from anyone that drives in a heavily varied climate... your tire pressures will remain more consistent than when using regular air. But again, we're talking a difference of maybe 10-15%?

[Z_Monzter]

Better air pressure retention. The single biggest reason for tire failure is lack of maintenance of tire pressure. In fact, 54 percent of all vehicles on the road have low tire pressure. Oxygen in compressed air can permeate the tire wall reducing tire pressure. With nitrogen, diffusion is 30 to 40 percent slower than oxygen. As a result, nitrogen maintains tire pressure longer than ambient air.


http://www.irtools.com/products/nitrogen/



Enhanced fuel economy. Maintaining tire pressure can boost fuel economy by as much as 6 percent. Nitrogen disperses heat more quickly than ambient air. By restraining the heat in the tire and reducing rolling resistance, you get better fuel economy.


Longer tread life. With quicker heat dispersion, you get a cooler running tire which helps extend tread life and reduce tire failure. Nitrogen also prevents oxidation which can not only lead to tread separation and belt failure but, when combined with moisture, corrode rims. In fact, moisture can result in rust flakes that can fall into the valve stem, block the valve and cause under-pressurization. It can even cause the valve stem itself to rust.


Slow chemical aging. Filling a tire with nitrogen also significantly slows the chemical aging process of the tire’s rubber components. This leads to fewer catastrophic failures like blowouts. Slower aging lengthens tire core life, which yields extra retreads and lower fleet costs.

[9Hooker]

Apparently no one read the scientific evidence that says nitrogen is all but worthless....

[azcat]

Apparently no one read the scientific evidence that says nitrogen is all but worthless....

"Fighting ignorance since 1972 (it's taking longer than we thought)."
--Cecil Adams

[5280_CX-7]

Apparently no one read the scientific evidence that says nitrogen is all but worthless....

Yup, smaller molecules escape through things easer then large ones...Duuh!

So you'll be PAYING for Nitrogen to refill your tires more often then refilling your tires with air for FREE!
22% more Nitrogen in your tires isn't going to make any difference.
That’s all your paying for anyway, 22% more Nitrogen than you can get for free.

I can get 100% pure Nitrogen for free and I'm not going for it.
But hay if it makes you feel good...
If you worry about your tire pressure just buy a $5.00 tire gage and check them when you gas up.
And by the way, has anyone ever had a tire fail due to rubber degradation before the tread wore out?

[azcat]

And by the way, has anyone ever had a tire fail due to rubber degradation before the tread wore out?

Short answer: no.

Long answer: the last flat I had was in October 1997. About two weeks after I got my Miata, I ran over a piece of metal on an off-ramp in Phoenix, cutting the sidewall. Since then, it's had five sets of new tires, the latest (Toyo T1-R) in September 2006. None of my other vehicles (1995 Volvo 850, 1999 Dakota, 2004 Santa Fe, 2007 CX-7) have had a flat.

Filling your tires with anything other than free air is a waste of time and money, offers no performance advantage, and only serves to deflate your wallet, in my not-so-humble opinion.

[mikey1981]

Just got an email from my dealer - they have just started advertising this - 40 bucks for the car

[mikey1981]

Benefits of nitrogen fill:
Safer
Tire failure reduces by 50%
Tread life increases by 25-30%
Fuel economy increases by 5-6%

Better
Improves steering, handling, braking performance
Cheaper
Save over $100 a year in tire and fuel cost

Reduces tire oxidation

Eliminates wheel corrosion

Reduces running temperature

(taken from the email)

[Joffar]

Does anyone have any hard scientific evidence that nitrogen helps?

Seems like 9hooker is the only one using science here, proving that the benefits are nonexistant....

[Mamas Ride]

Nitrogen is most helpful to the Dealer's bottom line... all those who believe in the "benefits" of nitrogen please contact me as I will be willing to sell you all the useless junk you can afford:)

[mikey1981]

For what its worth, nitrogen is probably most usefull in cold climates where pressure loss is imminent and preserving your tires for as long as possible is a value to you. Other than that, prob not worth 40 bucks.

The way i read these benefits list is that they are all related to a pressure loss situations and what happens - not so much as what Nitrogen does better than a normal air fill in a non-pressure loss situation

From Popular Mechanics:
I used to use nitrogen to fill my race car tires because it was the cheapest bottled gas I could buy in big cylinders at the welding shop. Twenty bucks' worth of nitrogen would fill enough tires for a whole weekend of endurance racing, and also would run the air wrenches that I used to change the tires.

Remember, air is about 80 percent nitrogen to start with--so the difference is not profound. The balance of the volume of air is mostly oxygen, which is bad for your tires. Oxygen promotes breakdown of the rubber, so your tires should last longer with pure nitrogen. Furthermore, nitrogen molecules migrate through rubber more slowly than oxygen, so your tires should lose pressure more slowly. (I'm assuming you check your tire pressures on a regular schedule.)

Another, perhaps more important, advantage to nitrogen is that the nitrogen delivered from a welding cylinder or nitrogen generator is desiccated and clean. Moisture inside a tire is bad because it causes pressure fluctuations and corrodes rims. And, I've seen lots of water come out of service-station air pumps. I generally will check the line for moisture before I use it by depressing the inflater pin with my thumbnail. If my thumb gets wet, I try to purge the line for a few seconds. There's also the potential for the compressor to force lubricating oil and garbage from the inside of the tank into the tire. Oil will further accelerate breakdown of the rubber, and dirt can be trapped in the valve core, starting a leak. Worse, some shops use automatic oilers to lubricate their air tools, adding even more oily mist to the mix.

To properly use nitrogen in your tires, all of the air has to be purged, generally by the time-honored tradition of alternately filling and venting the tire. Unless the tire is broken off the rim, cleaned of moisture and debris, and remounted with a waterfree rim lubricant before purging with nitrogen, you'll miss most of the benefits.

Bottom line: I'd fill new tires with nitrogen if the tire shop will do it for free or at least at a discount. Most will. But just cruising in and topping off from a nitrogen hose for 20 bucks? Save your money.

[9Hooker]

Remember, air is about 80 percent nitrogen to start with--so the difference is not profound. The balance of the volume of air is mostly oxygen, which is bad for your tires. Oxygen promotes breakdown of the rubber, so your tires should last longer with pure nitrogen. Furthermore, nitrogen molecules migrate through rubber more slowly than oxygen, so your tires should lose pressure more slowly. (I'm assuming you check your tire pressures on a regular schedule.)


I see the point of the article. But I believe the author may be wrong in two respects.

1)Oxygen promotes breakdown of the tire. How many of us have tires that have given out due to rot and not punctures/tread wear/etc? I am willing to bet a large sum that the number is few, and happens rarely on today's tires.

2)Nitrogen molecules migrate through rubber more slowly. The size difference of the molecules is not that much at all. The amount increase of dissipation over regular air is going to be negligible. And if you think about it, only ~20% of the air is O2. So if it gets diffused, you in essence have nitrogen filled tires anyway. Also, who lets their tires get into a state of mal-repair and not around the normal tire pressures? Hell, temperature makes a bigger difference in air pressures than losses through the rubber.

$0.02

[lgagno1]

I see the point of the article. But I believe the author may be wrong in two respects.

1)Oxygen promotes breakdown of the tire. How many of us have tires that have given out due to rot and not punctures/tread wear/etc? I am willing to bet a large sum that the number is few, and happens rarely on today's tires.

2)Nitrogen molecules migrate through rubber more slowly. The size difference of the molecules is not that much at all. The amount increase of dissipation over regular air is going to be negligible. And if you think about it, only ~20% of the air is O2. So if it gets diffused, you in essence have nitrogen filled tires anyway. Also, who lets their tires get into a state of mal-repair and not around the normal tire pressures? Hell, temperature makes a bigger difference in air pressures than losses through the rubber.

$0.02

Yeah, I tend to focus on the science behind it all and say all this advertisement crap is just that, crap. The ONLY benefit I can see of nitrogen over normal air is that oyxgen is a better oxidant and will oxidize the tire, but will you ever notice it? I seriously doubt that oxidation plays a large role in tire failure.

As for people saying that nitrogen is larger than oxygen and won't exit the tire as quickly, that's true. But we're talking about such a small difference in radius. Covalent oxygen is 73 pico meters while covalent nitrogen is 75. We're talking a difference of less than 3% difference in radius.

[mikey1981]

Right, point is - nitro is prob adventagous to a handfull of people. If regular air was so bad for a tire, wed have been pumpin them full of nitro a while ago

[9Hooker]

for what I'm sure is another reason completely, can someone smarter than me tell me why my hydraulic accumulators are filled with nitrogen instead of some other gas???

[mixmasterlove]

Just read article today and it recommended NITROGEN, especially in the winter...found a place by me $25.00 ($5.00 a tire). www.getnitrogen.org

[reynoldsrobbie]

Just read article today and it recommended NITROGEN, especially in the winter...found a place by me $25.00 ($5.00 a tire). www.getnitrogen.org
Ive got nitrogen in mine. Keeps much better pressure and seems better for my low profile tires too!

[gone_fishin]

Who are you guys going to believe-- someone who has absolutely nothing to gain by telling you how it really is, or someone who has everything to gain by telling you what they want you to believe?

A lot of these pro-nitrogen 'statistics' are commming from the same individuals that charge $45 for an oil change :rolleyes:

[mixmasterlove]

Who are you guys going to believe-- someone who has absolutely nothing to gain by telling you how it really is, or someone who has everything to gain by telling you what they want you to believe?

A lot of these pro-nitrogen 'statistics' are commming from the same individuals that charge $45 for an oil change :rolleyes:
I read mine in a article today, and I have been thinking about it for a while ( I started this thread ), it is HIGHLY recommended for those who live in cold climates.

[xelderx]

Nitrogen has been used to fill race tires for years. It reacts to temperature change much less than normal air. Most racing rims that are used with nitrogen have two valve stems to make sure the tire is filled with 100% nitrogen. In a daily commuter car I don't see much need for it, but the colder climate thing might be an exception.

[9Hooker]

it is HIGHLY recommended for those who live in cold climates.


why. what makes it so special that science hasn't debunked (in this thread no less) yet?

[mixmasterlove]

Put the NITROGEN in today, it cost $25.00 for all 4 tires and the spare AND I got a lifetime refill on them. You actually feel a lil' difference for the BETTER with the NITROGEN. So I give it a A +

[kailua]

Next thing you know, someone is going to offer helium fill for tires, because it is lighter than nitrogen and oxygen and will reduce unsprung weight, thus help with handling of your SUV. (bike)

If someone was offering the nitrogen for free, like costco, I'll accept it, but to spend more money on it because it is marginally better, is probably money better spent on a reliable air gauge, re-balancing your wheels, alignment, or dinner. (drive)