View Full Version : Installing my Goldlines and Illuminas this weekend. w00t!
MrDiggler
11-11-2006, 01:44 AM
Never swapped springs or struts before, so wish me luck. I'll post my observations on the install and the driving experience over the next days/weeks. I'm curious to see how these do with the AXR bracket. I know I'm not the only one who's installed this combo, but I'll throw up a pic or two of how Sparky sits with the new springs. While it's up on the stands I'm going to put my drilled rotors and maybe my GT-spec trailing arms on too. What else I got up there in the attic that needs to be put on...?
ChopstickHero
11-11-2006, 02:54 AM
if you've never touched your endlinks before, spray those endlinks down with alot of pb blaster! they are known to seize and you will need to cut them off or pry them off.
are the goldines progressive or linear springs?
MrDiggler
11-11-2006, 03:11 AM
It appears the fronts are linear and the rears progressive. Thanks for the tip on the endlinks. They are soaking as we speak.
i've always liked the drop on the goldlines, but have never been sure of the performance aspect. F progressive R linear seems backwards, most are the opposite.... are you sure you got it the right way around??
our "spring buyers guide" thread says all eibachs are progressive...
MrDiggler
11-11-2006, 04:16 AM
I just realized while working on the car that I posted that backwards! Front linear, rear progressive on the Goldlines. Going to edit that, lol.
not sure why i thought you had eibachs.... damn must be this really bad headache that will soon lead to a runny nose.... hows the install going/
MrDiggler
11-11-2006, 05:57 AM
Whew. I'm done for the night. I've been so tired things are taking much longer than they should. I had a hell of a time with the rear deck. A couple of posts said to remove the five front clips and then just pull it toward the front of the car. They neglected to mention that you first have to pop the hidden rear deck clips up out of place by lifting the deck. Common sense said there was more to it than what I was reading. Then I discovered someone rounded one of the front endlink nuts. I had to hammer a socket over it in order to remove it. The other three I had to pop loose with a 1/2" breaker bar, but they're in great shape. Some of the spindle to strut nuts are too tight for me to even get with the breaker bar, and I'm not going to fire up the compressor & impact while my wife's asleep...so I'm going to get some shuteye. Things should go smoother tomorrow.
yeah some peoples struts go pretty easy it seems like, but for other people it can be a total bitch. I guess its probably even worse when you're further north. Hope it all gets finished up pretty easy!! looking forward to driving impressions and pics.
MrDiggler
11-11-2006, 04:06 PM
My "factory" bump stops are already cut way down! They're right at 1". I expected to see a full 2-2 1/2" piece in there. WTF? Maybe they're done that way for the RB springs. I'm sure as hell not going to cut it any further.
sandspeed
11-11-2006, 05:31 PM
i'm looking forward to seeing how your speed looks with the goldlines/illuminas combo, should be awesome.
I'm still riding on the tein springs/stock struts combo and i'm getting tired of them so I hope the illuminas are badass because i might purchase them.
MrDiggler
11-11-2006, 05:44 PM
I did a bunch of research before making this choice and am expecting to be happy. One thing I'm about to be able to determine for sure is the difference in the perch height of the stock rear struts vs. the Illuminas. IIRC, the Illuminas rear perch is supposed to be lower. The fronts are pretty much identical to the HP's. I'll put up some pics of each side-by-side shortly.
sandspeed
11-11-2006, 05:57 PM
I did a bunch of research before making this choice and am expecting to be happy. One thing I'm about to be able to determine for sure is the difference in the perch height of the stock rear struts vs. the Illuminas. IIRC, the Illuminas rear perch is supposed to be lower. The fronts are pretty much identical to the HP's. I'll put up some pics of each side-by-side shortly.
Right, I was thinking that the illuminas would balance out the drop better than the stock msp tokico's. With my tein s-tech springs the rear actually sits higher than when i was stock which is annoying. Again, good luck with the install bro
MrDiggler
11-12-2006, 01:27 AM
Been making progress, however slowly. Although I've successfully built an engine, until today I'd never done struts/springs or brakes, lol. I'm taking my time. I used to have a corner service station who did brakes and suspension work so cheap there was no point doing it yourself, but they closed this summer.
Attached are some pics of rear Tokico HP vs. the Illumina as well as the original RB MSP springs vs. the Goldlines, both front and rear. I know there are pics up somewhere of the struts, but figured it couldn't hurt to put 'em here too. The front struts are essentially identical in dimensions, unlike the rears.
Notice how the front springs are the same height & the rear Goldlines are actually taller than the RB's? If they're slightly stiffer, how is this going to lower the car, lol? One pic shows a complete strut with the new drilled rotors. There's also one of my engine bay showing off my polished intake piping & valve cover, heh. Next will be the heatshield and then I'll have to finish polishing the tranny case. Rainy day stuff.
Some observations/tips... If your coil spring isolators (rubber donuts) are the originals, plan on replacing at least the upper front and lower rear while you are in there...which means, order them ahead of time! I almost ordered all new ones but thought mine would still be in good shape, and damn if the the upper front and lower rear are cracking all over. Since I'm uber anal retentive, I actually washed all my isolators and my dust covers in warm soapy water, dried them and then drenched them in armor all. I also used some ES formula 5 prelube where the springs will ride inside the isolators. I hate squeaks.
I'm heading to see the TN Titans vs. the Ravens in Nashville tomorrow, so I won't be finishing up the rears until tomorrow night. I'll post pics as soon as everything is together and settled in.
well since they're progressive im guessing they lower because the first few inches of compression is actually softer than the stock RB. as it gets settled down to its normal height it should feel the same as stock but with less roll because as it gets compressed more it gets stiffer?
just a guess on why the two springs are almost same height. at least for the fronts....
MrDiggler
11-12-2006, 01:47 AM
well since they're progressive im guessing they lower because the first few inches of compression is actually softer than the stock RB. as it gets settled down to its normal height it should feel the same as stock but with less roll because as it gets compressed more it gets stiffer?
just a guess on why the two springs are almost same height.
Yeah, I figured as much myself. Even though the fronts are both linear (IIRC), the Goldline has one more turn in it. Check out how many more the rear has.
jimmybrite
11-12-2006, 01:56 AM
I had to cut 2 endlinks when I installed my coils.Anyhow the endlinks are cheap at the dealer anyways, Now I cant wait to put new struts in, but I think i'll go with adjustable endlinks and anti-seize this time
MrDiggler
11-12-2006, 08:27 AM
Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that in addition to the short front bump stops, there are NO rear bump stops! Is anyone elses stock MSP like this?
Brian MP5T
11-12-2006, 09:33 AM
Been making progress, however slowly. Although I've successfully built an engine, until today I'd never done struts/springs or brakes, lol. I'm taking my time. I used to have a corner service station who did brakes and suspension work so cheap there was no point doing it yourself, but they closed this summer.
READ THIS PLEASE
I noticed that the Paint Dots on your Pillow mount are in the wrong place. You have just induced alot of camber in the struts for nothing.. You will never be able to get a good alignment. Jack up the car and undo the 4 bolts that support the mount. Push down and rotate the pillow mount until they point towards the rear outside of the car respectfully. So the Passenger side dot faces back and to the passenger side mirror. and the drivers side faces back and the drivers side mirror.
Brian MP5T
11-12-2006, 09:34 AM
(See Point #3)
http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showpost.php?p=930236&postcount=1
MrDiggler
11-13-2006, 12:48 AM
Damn I wish someone had told me something about whether I should have rear bump stops. I'm home from the game and have to put the rear struts in so I can get to work in the morning. They're going in without stops since I didn't have any back there to begin with.
Brian, I sent you a PM about the pillow mounts.
CustomMSP
11-13-2006, 01:37 AM
you definitely want bumpstops in there. I'm pretty sure that mine have bumpstops. I'll check for you tomorrow.
MrDiggler
11-13-2006, 01:55 AM
Thanks, because I'm done for the night anyway. When I went to tighten the first of my rear struts, the big washer with the D shaped hole stripped and the shaft just spins inside it. Now I have to get up at the crack of dawn and take my wife to work so I'll have a car tomorrow. I'll have to find a replacement or get this one to a machine shop for a fix. My f-in luck.
*update* Weirdness. The washer is only slightly rounded out, but there's one point on the strut threads where it will slip and turn. It's barely boogered the threads at that point, so I'm going to have the same problem on reassembly. The damn thing just doesn't fit as snug as it needs to. I'm either going to get a new one or use a punch to swell the metal a bit around the flat side of the hole. Arrgghh.
Jaysanooch
11-13-2006, 02:51 AM
READ THIS PLEASE
I noticed that the Paint Dots on your Pillow mount are in the wrong place. You have just induced alot of camber in the struts for nothing.. You will never be able to get a good alignment. Jack up the car and undo the 4 bolts that support the mount. Push down and rotate the pillow mount until they point towards the rear outside of the car respectfully. So the Passenger side dot faces back and to the passenger side mirror. and the drivers side faces back and the drivers side mirror.
Ya very important....I never thanked you Brian but that solved my alignment troubles. I bought my car new and my car came with the driver side dot pointing towards the headlight. This after many visits to the dealer and many alignments, I gave up. I learned this... made the adjustement and problem solved...a pleasure to drive now! So thanks Brian...big time!
Thanks, because I'm done for the night anyway. When I went to tighten the first of my rear struts, the big washer with the D shaped hole stripped and the shaft just spins inside it. Now I have to get up at the crack of dawn and take my wife to work so I'll have a car tomorrow. I'll have to find a replacement or get this one to a machine shop for a fix. My f-in luck.
*update* Weirdness. The washer is only slightly rounded out, but there's one point on the strut threads where it will slip and turn. It's barely boogered the threads at that point, so I'm going to have the same problem on reassembly. The damn thing just doesn't fit as snug as it needs to. I'm either going to get a new one or use a punch to swell the metal a bit around the flat side of the hole. Arrgghh.
I've swapped out my stock MSP struts with Illuminas and may have a few pointers here: http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2656315&postcount=9
Also, the center nut that comes with the Illuminas will not allow full tightening of the rear assembly. The OEM nut has more material below the threaded portion, but since it sounds like your OEM suspension has previously been monkeyed with, who knows whats on there - washers can do the trick. The OEM MSP bumpstops are the same all around and should definately be on there ... but I'll tell you this; they may never see action lol! Especially with the AXR brackets going on there. I get the most suspension compression in my P5 when I'm entering steep off-camber driveways. With the MSP, the car simply goes into 3-wheel mode. If the car did not have the LSD up front, I'd be getting stuck a lot as the front can lift a tire coming out of the same driveways. My P5 has Tokico HP's and Espelirs and my MSP has Tokico Illuminas with Espelirs (as well as the AXR brackets).
Protege bump stops
http://www.msprotege.com/members/Bala%20de%20Plata/Bump%20Stops%2001.jpg
MrDiggler
11-13-2006, 02:43 PM
Thanks Bala. I couldn't find that thread of yours last night. Great idea putting some carpet down in the garage. I need to do that. Much easier on the knees and the parts. That pic of the bump stops helps a bunch too. Haven't seen that before. All that's left of my front stops is little more than the center third. They've been cut on both ends.
Oh, and of course the dealer will have to order all of the strut parts I need, including the rear bump stops. I'm going to hit the parts store on the way home and see if I can't come away with something to use on the rears for now. Those and fixing the big washer would at least get Sparky back on the road. I'll be pulling everything out again soon and installing new spring isolators and dust boots anyway.
*edit* Well, no go on bump stops. No parts store or dealer in town had any for any vehicle. What BS. I'm not going to run my Illuminas on lowering springs without bump stops in there, so I'm forced to reinstall my factory rear setup until I get the parts I need.
MrDiggler
11-14-2006, 03:36 AM
It's all back together. I reinstalled the factory rear setup so I can get to work. I just got back from a 10 minute test drive with some medium speed corners, and right now I'm underwhelmed with this combo in the front. Turn-in doesn't seem as crisp as before and the stiffer ride is going to take some getting used to. The Illuminas are only on "2".
I know I really won't be able to tell until I get the rears put in and get a good alignment, so I'm crossing my fingers that things get better. Man, the front is low though. Thankfully my car has always ridden low in the back (compared to other MSP's I've seen) or it would look pretty weird.
Oh, one more piece of weirdness, I didn't have to use the spring compressor to get my stock rears put back together. I had 1/2" of thread sticking out.
It's all back together. I reinstalled the factory rear setup so I can get to work. I just got back from a 10 minute test drive with some medium speed corners, and right now I'm underwhelmed with this combo in the front. Turn-in doesn't seem as crisp as before and the stiffer ride is going to take some getting used to. The Illuminas are only on "2". It's counter-intuitive, but things will probably get less bouncy and stiff as you work your way towards the 5 setting. The best dampening setup will probably be 4 (or 3)
I know I really won't be able to tell until I get the rears put in and get a good alignment, so I'm crossing my fingers that things get better. A good alignment really ties it all together. Bring the Mazdaspeed alignment specs with you to the shop and "encourage" the tech to really nail it. If you don't have the Mazdaspeed specific specs, shoot me a pm.
Man, the front is low though. Thankfully my car has always ridden low in the back (compared to other MSP's I've seen) or it would look pretty weird. Oh, one more piece of weirdness, I didn't have to use the spring compressor to get my stock rears put back together. I had 1/2" of thread sticking out. Yeah, not needing the compressor in the rear threw me off as well, but I was in a fit of rage when I found out. I had just perfectly assembled the struts, went to install the pasenger side and reliezed that I had installed the(L&R) strut hats on the wrong struts. So I pulled them apart again a rebuilt them only to find that there was about 3/8" of slop in the assembly due to the supplied center nut not snugging thing down all the way. F#$K! - I kicked my spring compressors across the floor (good thing I have carpet :)) and threw all my weight on top of the strut and wrenched the center nut off and ... nothing. At least the final assembly cheered me up.
MrDiggler
11-14-2006, 07:21 PM
Lol, good thing you didn't get a strut hat through the forehead!
I see what you mean about the struts. Things may be underdamped right now, but it's really not as bouncy as it is stiff and a bit harsh compared to my stockers. I'm holding off final judgement until I get the alignment fixed, but I'm still not happy with the steering feel. It's lost that perfectly linear feel that I'm used to...almost as if someone snuck in and put a variable ratio rack in it. On-center feel is fine, but a little ways out it seems to turn faster and feels funny. I'm hoping that's a camber/alignment issue. I'm willing to sacrifice a tiny bit on the ride quality, but I won't sacrifice one bit of the incredible steering feel that made me fall in love with driving the MSP.
srd555
11-14-2006, 08:43 PM
Lol, good thing you didn't get a strut hat through the forehead!
I see what you mean about the struts. Things may be underdamped right now, but it's really not as bouncy as it is stiff and a bit harsh compared to my stockers. I'm holding off final judgement until I get the alignment fixed, but I'm still not happy with the steering feel. It's lost that perfectly linear feel that I'm used to...almost as if someone snuck in and put a variable ratio rack in it. On-center feel is fine, but a little ways out it seems to turn faster and feels funny. I'm hoping that's a camber/alignment issue. I'm willing to sacrifice a tiny bit on the ride quality, but I won't sacrifice one bit of the incredible steering feel that made me fall in love with driving the MSP.
This sums up what I felt with the Sportlines and illuminas. I took out some of the caster (turned the paint dot back towards the rear view mirrors)which helped with that variable rack feel. I tried setting 3 in the front and rear but it was too stiff on the front and did not want to turn in also skipped in corners.
The setup I was happiest with was 2 in the front (had to cut the front bump stops in half to get some travel) and 4 in the rear. I topped it of with 36 psi in the front tires and 30 psi in the rear. With this I was able to turn in and follow through the perfect line in a corner.
But since I am a piky basterd I took them of and went with the KW coilovers.:)
CustomMSP
11-14-2006, 08:51 PM
Lol, good thing you didn't get a strut hat through the forehead!
I see what you mean about the struts. Things may be underdamped right now, but it's really not as bouncy as it is stiff and a bit harsh compared to my stockers. I'm holding off final judgement until I get the alignment fixed, but I'm still not happy with the steering feel. It's lost that perfectly linear feel that I'm used to...almost as if someone snuck in and put a variable ratio rack in it. On-center feel is fine, but a little ways out it seems to turn faster and feels funny. I'm hoping that's a camber/alignment issue. I'm willing to sacrifice a tiny bit on the ride quality, but I won't sacrifice one bit of the incredible steering feel that made me fall in love with driving the MSP.
Don't worry man, you just need an alignment and it'll be just like stock. You might want to set the toe to 0 all around if you want a quicker steering response.
MrDiggler
11-16-2006, 03:16 AM
I noticed that the Paint Dots on your Pillow mount are in the wrong place. You have just induced alot of camber in the struts for nothing.. You will never be able to get a good alignment. Jack up the car and undo the 4 bolts that support the mount. Push down and rotate the pillow mount until they point towards the rear outside of the car respectfully. So the Passenger side dot faces back and to the passenger side mirror. and the drivers side faces back and the drivers side mirror.
I did some more research on the various positions of the yellow dots on the strut mounts. Delsing and several individuals were in agreement on the rear/out being the stock position but forward/out being the best for overall performance. According to them, forward/out gives same neg. camber but more caster. My pass. side was already this way, so I rotated the driver's side to match and will take it for an alignment first thing tomorrow.
On the rotation of those mounts- Thankfully I found some info on Delsing's site about the best way to do this. Get the wheels off the ground, remove them, disconnect the front sway endlink at the strut and then the mount is relatively easy to drop and rotate. If you don't disconnect the endlink (and I didn't at first), dropping the strut can preload the swaybar, and if you get the strut off to one side inside the strut tower it can bind up pretty tight in there. Some peeps can successfully pull off the mount rotation without taking a wheel off or the endlink loose, but I won't try it again.
Oh, and attached is a pic showing the drop in the front, but the overall effect is much greater when standing farther back from the car. It's crazy low compared to stock. I can't get one finger in there unless it's angled up. I also found out that my rear driver's side lip has been rolled, but my rear pass. side has not. It's amazing to me that so much weird stuff was done to a car that I bought with 8k miles on it. The previous owner evidently did screw around with the suspension, which would explain my missing rear bump stops. I'm going to roll the other lip before putting on the rear Illumina and Goldline combo. I'm already worried that the Illumina's lower spring perch and the drop from the springs will combine to have the rear tucked like a BMW.
CustomMSP
11-16-2006, 08:02 AM
Looks good man! I miss the drop of the Goldlines.
that does look good. If the jury comes back good after getting an alignment, i think i'm getting me some goldlines!!!
MrDiggler
11-17-2006, 02:31 AM
Got my alignment today, and also turned the front Illuminas up to 3 (Rear still aren't on). It seems some better, but my steering still doesn't feel like it used to. The front also feels considerably stiffer over bumps than before, and I feel like I'm getting more bump steer than before. Certain streches of concrete highway with slight undulations drive me nuts now b/c the car is following the road more closely than I'd care for it to. Maybe I'll adjust to it, and maybe things will improve more when the rear setup goes on. Right now the nose is pitched enough downward I can sense the difference while driving. This must be what SRT-4 drivers feel like, lol. BTW, it rained all day here and I didn't feel like pushing it. If it's dry tomorrow I'll hit some curves and report back.
I wanted the tech to ditch the toe, and he did. We had a problem getting the caster balanced L to R, with the L being .6 more than the right. I suggested to the tech to turn the left strut mount back to the factory setting (dot to outside rear instead of outside front) and it worked out great. My car must be "out" a bit from the hit it took before I bought it. FWIW, here's the specs:
Left (Previous in parentheses)
Camber (-1.0) -0.9
Caster (2.4) 1.8
Toe (-.06) .01
Right
Camber (-0.8) -0.8
Caster (1.8) 1.7
Toe (-.09) -.01
yashart_mp3
11-17-2006, 08:36 AM
Do you have any pics of the entire strut assembly? Like a blown apart view of everything?
lisevolution
11-17-2006, 12:18 PM
I know what you mean about the steering feel. I definitely need to get my alignment done as I have a dead on center feel and much less sensitivity since I installed my Sprint springs on the stock struts. I am probaby going to have to switch to the Illumina's in the very near future as those springs with the stock struts equal a sometimes bouncy ride. I like the appearance factor however as it dropped the car 2" all around and my rear is tucked like a BMW...
MrDiggler
11-18-2006, 03:27 AM
Do you have any pics of the entire strut assembly? Like a blown apart view of everything?
Got one blown apart at this moment. Will edit and post some pics for you tonight or in the morning. It will be a rear since the fronts are already done.
low_psi
11-18-2006, 03:41 AM
The front is stiffer over bumps because the compression dampening on setting 3 is probably more than the stock HPs. The wandering is most likely due to zeroing your toe. With 0 toe all around and max camber via stock tip mounts, my car wanders quite a bit.
MrDiggler
11-19-2006, 01:52 PM
I wish I'd known zeroing the toe could have negative consequences.
CustomMSP
11-19-2006, 02:20 PM
The front is stiffer over bumps because the compression dampening on setting 3 is probably more than the stock HPs. The wandering is most likely due to zeroing your toe. With 0 toe all around and max camber via stock tip mounts, my car wanders quite a bit.
So did mine, but I loved the quick steering response.
Brian MP5T
11-19-2006, 02:57 PM
Ya very important....I never thanked you Brian but that solved my alignment troubles. I bought my car new and my car came with the driver side dot pointing towards the headlight. This after many visits to the dealer and many alignments, I gave up. I learned this... made the adjustement and problem solved...a pleasure to drive now! So thanks Brian...big time!
Totally Awesome.. You made my day..Glad it helped.
Brian MP5T
11-19-2006, 03:00 PM
I wish I'd known zeroing the toe could have negative consequences.
It goes crazy in a straight line..
Awesome in a corner.
low_psi
11-19-2006, 04:10 PM
Yep, a small trade off.
sandspeed
11-19-2006, 05:33 PM
wow...nice progess so far diggler. I am experiencing the same with my my tein/stock strut combo. The car is funny because sometimes it just wanders across an entire street.
Looking forward to some more pics.
MrDiggler
11-21-2006, 02:22 AM
Here's the stance after the install. Me likes!
That said, I'm still trying to get used to the steering and the ride. Undulations aren't too bad, but sharp pavement transitions of only 1" or so are brutal. They just repaved a road cut down from my neighborhood entrance, and both times I crossed it today it was like a kidney punch. My wife is going to hate me. I backed the struts down to 1 tonight and will report the difference tomorrow.
I haven't had much opportunity to test the handling because the weather has sucked here, but I think it's going to corner very flat and very hard. I can only imagine how much better it will get when I put my Eagle F1 GS-D3's on.
CnoTataymo
11-21-2006, 02:35 AM
Here's the stance after the install. Me likes!
That said, I'm still trying to get used to the steering and the ride. Undulations aren't too bad, but sharp pavement transitions of only 1" or so are brutal. They just repaved a road cut down from my neighborhood entrance, and both times I crossed it today it was like a kidney punch. My wife is going to hate me. I backed the struts down to 1 tonight and will report the difference tomorrow.
I haven't had much opportunity to test the handling because the weather has sucked here, but I think it's going to corner very flat and very hard. I can only imagine how much better it will get when I put my Eagle F1 GS-D3's on.
Wow, your drop looks way better then mine! I like it!
MrDiggler
11-21-2006, 02:39 AM
Wow, your drop looks way better then mine! I like it!
Thanks. What strut/spring combo you running?
looks great! Keep working on dialing them in and keep us posted. With your new stance, you'll need some new ramps ;) ... see here: http://www.msprotege.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2815436&postcount=7052
Oh, and get ready for 3-wheeling on a daily basis.
CnoTataymo
11-21-2006, 02:47 AM
I've got the stock Tokico's that came with the car with Goldlines. Just curious, are your bumpstops shorter then the stock ones?
really love the stance. I wonder if it would look similar and handle well on the stock struts.
boostdprotegelx
11-21-2006, 10:32 AM
Here's the stance after the install. Me likes!
That said, I'm still trying to get used to the steering and the ride. Undulations aren't too bad, but sharp pavement transitions of only 1" or so are brutal. They just repaved a road cut down from my neighborhood entrance, and both times I crossed it today it was like a kidney punch. My wife is going to hate me. I backed the struts down to 1 tonight and will report the difference tomorrow.
I haven't had much opportunity to test the handling because the weather has sucked here, but I think it's going to corner very flat and very hard. I can only imagine how much better it will get when I put my Eagle F1 GS-D3's on.
looks fantastic DIgg. very nice.
MrDiggler
11-21-2006, 01:24 PM
really love the stance. I wonder if it would look similar and handle well on the stock struts.
The drop would be very similar, but about an inch higher in the rear than what you see here. Check out my pics early in this thread- The front spring perches are the same b/w the two struts, but the perch on the rear Illumina is almost an inch lower than the HP. I don't know if I'd want the rear sitting any higher than it is. What's odd is that the rear is hardly any lower than when I had the stock struts/springs. Mine always sat lower in the rear than everyone elses stock setup that I saw, and it makes me wonder if the previous owner didn't trim the rear springs. I wish someone had a pic of their stock rear spring so I could compare.
I've got the stock Tokico's that came with the car with Goldlines. Just curious, are your bumpstops shorter then the stock ones? New bump stops don't come with the Illuminas, you have to swap your stock ones over. According to Goldline, the stock bump stops should be trimmed 1" in the front and .75" in the rear when using their Protege springs, and that wouldn't change when using Illuminas.
As mentioned earlier in the thread, I discovered my front stops were already trimmed way down and my rears were missing. I had to order new rear stops before I could finish my strut/spring swap as I was not about to run the Illuminas without bump stops.
MrDiggler
11-24-2006, 01:05 PM
An update - It did ride some better with the Illuminas on "1", but it's still bit stiffer than I'd like. The car lifts a wheel over uneven surfaces a bit easier than before, too. It's looking more like I won't be keeping this combination. I think I gave up as much as I gained with this swap. I'm going to shoot an email to Tokico to get some more info on the Illumina vs. the HP to see how well they would with stock springs. My plan right now is to cut the stock front springs just enough to drop me about 1". I'd leave the rears alone if using the Illuminas because mine sat low in the rear anyway and the Illumina perch is about 1" lower.
I'm just not sold on stiffer springs for this car, especially with the big sway bars and the AutoX bracket. With as much everyday driving as I do, the ride quality compromises and iffy improvement in handling aren't enough to justify the killer stance.
whaddaya mean "AutoX bracket"??
If you sell the springs for a good price i might be interested. Probably won't have the funds, but ya never know.
CustomMSP
11-24-2006, 03:13 PM
An update - It did ride some better with the Illuminas on "1", but it's still bit stiffer than I'd like. The car lifts a wheel over uneven surfaces a bit easier than before, too. It's looking more like I won't be keeping this combination. I think I gave up as much as I gained with this swap. I'm going to shoot an email to Tokico to get some more info on the Illumina vs. the HP to see how well they would with stock springs. My plan right now is to cut the stock front springs just enough to drop me about 1". I'd leave the rears alone if using the Illuminas because mine sat low in the rear anyway and the Illumina perch is about 1" lower.
I'm just not sold on stiffer springs for this car, especially with the big sway bars and the AutoX bracket. With as much everyday driving as I do, the ride quality compromises and iffy improvement in handling aren't enough to justify the killer stance.
I'm pretty sure that the Goldlines are not much if any stiffer than the stock RBs. Most of the increased stiffness is from the struts. I think the rear Goldline springs are softer at rest and upto a certain compression point than the stock RBs and the rear Illuminas are undersprung at that point which causes a bouncy ride.
MrDiggler
11-24-2006, 07:19 PM
I'm pretty sure that the Goldlines are not much if any stiffer than the stock RBs. Most of the increased stiffness is from the struts. I think the rear Goldline springs are softer at rest and upto a certain compression point than the stock RBs and the rear Illuminas are undersprung at that point which causes a bouncy ride.
I'm not experiencing a bouncy ride at all, just stiffer and it's harsh over transitions and surfaces that trigger high speed movement of the suspension, which very well could indicate the struts. I also think some of this could be due to having less suspension travel.
Something else I didn't mention b/c I just confirmed it on the way home; It seems to take more steering angle to get a good response out of the front tires than before. No more whipping around corners with a flick of the wheel. It takes more than a flick now. At a certain steering angle the tires seem to settle and bite very well, but not as well before that point... almost a bit floaty. I don't know enough about suspensions and alignment to know what would be causing this. I just hate that I put out all this money and effort for something I'm not pleased with. One of these days I'm going to learn that just because several people (likely younger than myself) post that "this setup rocks" or "it drives better than stock" doesn't mean that they're sweating the same details I am. I was expecting at least a significant improvement in overall handling, and didn't get it. The AXR bracket was a rewarding addition, and I should have stopped there.
jimmybrite
11-25-2006, 04:36 PM
hows ur camber??? maybe thats it
MrDiggler
11-26-2006, 02:13 AM
hows ur camber??? maybe thats it
My alignment specs are are on the previous page, I think. .8 and .9, IIRC.
MrDiggler
11-26-2006, 02:15 AM
whaddaya mean "AutoX bracket"??
If you sell the springs for a good price i might be interested. Probably won't have the funds, but ya never know.
The rear sway bar bushing relocation brackets sold by evolv. Also known as the "clunk fix brackets".
Brian MP5T
11-26-2006, 09:07 AM
Get TEIN-SS
Then you can set it to whatever you want..
kamon8404
11-26-2006, 11:31 PM
Looks great. Too bad you aren't going to keep the combination. I would love to take it off of your hands for you but the military doesn't pay me nearly enough!
MrDiggler
11-27-2006, 04:32 PM
Get TEIN-SS
Then you can set it to whatever you want..
Coilovers? I'm pretty certain the spring rates are going to be that much higher. I bought my 323 GTX with GC coilovers on it and I absolutely hate the ride. The Tein SS would give me a lot of adjustability though. Hmmm.
MrDiggler
11-27-2006, 04:43 PM
Another update: I put over 300 miles on the car yesterday doing an appraisal and driving to the Titans game (Go Titans!). This gave me a lot of seat time on every type of road, including some killer mountain roads I hadn't seen before. I'm getting more used to it, but still not sold on the combo. I'm getting rubbing front and rear when taking tighter corners hard, and the steering feel is still iffy. While the center of gravity should be lower now, there's still about as much body roll as before, which I didn't expect and it contributes to the rubbing. It could have something to do with progressive springs and may explain my weird initial turn-in feel. I also found out that the handling balance has changed... hello oversteer! I'm sure if I was a better driver and on the track I'd be tickled pink, but for me on public roads it's probably not the best idea, especially if the road were wet.
srd555
11-28-2006, 01:12 AM
I had all the same negative experiences when I had the sportline/ illuminas. I tried all the shock settings and still was not happy. I gave up and went with the KW coilovers. They are 340 lb/in in the front and a progressive rate in the rear. The ride is firm but not stiff, maybe like setting 1 or 2 on the illuminas when driven normally. When pushed the shocks seem to get stiffer (dunno) so it always feels perfect.
It still has a little bump steer but its less than the sportline combo I had.
I am finally happy.
MrDiggler
11-28-2006, 01:55 AM
I had all the same negative experiences when I had the sportline/ illuminas. I tried all the shock settings and still was not happy. I gave up and went with the KW coilovers. They are 340 lb/in in the front and a progressive rate in the rear. The ride is firm but not stiff, maybe like setting 1 or 2 on the illuminas when driven normally. When pushed the shocks seem to get stiffer (dunno) so it always feels perfect.
It still has a little bump steer but its less than the sportline combo I had.
I am finally happy.
I'm glad to know I'm not alone here. I was starting to think I was crazy because I never would have guessed I wouldn't be happy with this combo. I finally got to take my favorite off ramp tonight and I'm not sure that I'm any faster around it than before. There's a bit more drama now, as the suspension doesn't ever fully settle down like before. It seemed to keep squirming/wiggling above 8/10ths of the limit.
Could you ever hear your Illuminas? Ever since mine have been on, I hear a squish noise or high pitched whoosh from the right rear on any significant compression.
srd555
11-28-2006, 08:37 AM
I'm glad to know I'm not alone here. I was starting to think I was crazy because I never would have guessed I wouldn't be happy with this combo. I finally got to take my favorite off ramp tonight and I'm not sure that I'm any faster around it than before. There's a bit more drama now, as the suspension doesn't ever fully settle down like before. It seemed to keep squirming/wiggling above 8/10ths of the limit.
Could you ever hear your Illuminas? Ever since mine have been on, I hear a squish noise or high pitched whoosh from the right rear on any significant compression.
Yeah, I thought I was going crazy too, because when I came on here everyone said it was the geatest setup they ever had. I think the problem was the shock valving. If you set it to were it was comfortable to drive @ up to 4/10ths, then it was very squirmy/bouncy @ > 5/10ths. Mine for instance was set @ 2 front 4 rear with 36psi in the front tires and 30psi in the rear. This set up felt comfortable on the street and gave the best turn-in response (almost an oversteer) in the first half of a corner, the second half would have a balanced feel. This same setup however, would have a squirmy/bouncy/wandering feel when driven at or above highway speeds especially when you hit multiple bumps with high frequencies, eg. expansion slots on a bridge. When I upped the front shocks to 3, the car did not want to turn and the front wheels would skip over bumps.
srd555
11-28-2006, 08:49 AM
Could you ever hear your Illuminas? Ever since mine have been on, I hear a squish noise or high pitched whoosh from the right rear on any significant compression.
Yes, both the illuminas and the KW make that whoosh sound. I herd mine from all four corners though.
MrDiggler
12-08-2006, 03:07 AM
Still haven't switched out the combo. Thought I'd give it a fair shake, and I'm honestly not 100% sure what I want to do yet. I'll probably put the stock setup back in, but I'm really getting used to the look of it sitting 2" lower!
That said, I'm still not too enthused with this combo. I still think it rides like shit, and I don't think it handles any better than before.
CustomMSP
12-08-2006, 09:55 AM
Still haven't switched out the combo. Thought I'd give it a fair shake, and I'm honestly not 100% sure what I want to do yet. I'll probably put the stock setup back in, but I'm really getting used to the look of it sitting 2" lower!
That said, I'm still not too enthused with this combo. I still think it rides like shit, and I don't think it handles any better than before.
My suggestion is to give the Megan Racing springs a try if you can. They will sit the car higher for better front suspension geometry for less lean and are stiffer. Pretty much most of the lean will be eliminated. Your car will feel like a train. It'll be a good combination for the illuminas. However, they are STIFFER still than the goldlines and the ride will be a bit firmer as I've went from Goldlines to MR.
MrDiggler
12-09-2006, 02:55 AM
Thanks for the info. So, my front being lower might have a lot to do with why I'm not happy with the non-linear turn-in, etc.? Are the Megans too stiff for HP struts? Any pics of the stance after the install?
CustomMSP
12-09-2006, 04:52 AM
Thanks for the info. So, my front being lower might have a lot to do with why I'm not happy with the non-linear turn-in, etc.? Are the Megans too stiff for HP struts? Any pics of the stance after the install?
I'm pretty sure that because the front end is too low where the control arms are almost parallel is the major problem here. I would think that the HP struts will not be able dampen MR springs well, especially in the rear. My illumina has to be on 3 or higher in the rear to be able to control the MR Spring well. I'm not sure how a 3 setting on the illumina compares to the HPs.
here's a pic of the stance;
http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=76893
MrDiggler
12-12-2006, 11:58 AM
Cool, thanks man. I've been meaning to email Tokico and ask them (in layman's terms) what the differences are between the HP and the Illumina as far as performance. I'm aware of the obvious differences but I'd like to know if there is any setting on the Illumina that roughly corresponds with the action of the HP's. My guess is they don't really overlap, meaning #1 on the Illumina is still a bit firmer than the HP, but we'll see what they say.
MrDiggler
12-12-2006, 12:40 PM
There's no email address I could find for them, but I just got off the phone with Ray at Tokico in L.A. Apparently he was involved with the suspension testing on these cars a few years ago, and he said that the HP would correlate to about a 1.5 setting on the Illumina (for those who don't know, you have to set them in increments of 1). This also means they do overlap a bit with the HP. At least I have a reputable reference point now, and with my most recent Illumina settings in the 1-2 range, it would appear that my ride quality problems are not due to big differences in the struts. On that note, he also went on to say that they noticed that the MSP in particular didn't take well to being lowered too much and street driven, at least with their struts, because the ride quality deteriorated severely. He indicated that to maintain a decent ride quality and handling feel on the street, the MSP needs to keep as much of its suspension travel as possible. I'm sure this holds true in general for most cars, but it was surprising how distinctly he seemed to remember how the MSP behaved during their testing, so it apparently made an impression.
Either way, I'm glad for the info, and will probably keep my Illuminas, and therefore keep some adjustability. Now I just need to find a set of springs to my liking, and I bet they don't exist. I'd like something with the design and spring rate exactly like the Racing Beats, only with the front .75" lower than the RB when compressed.
CustomMSP
12-12-2006, 01:58 PM
There's no email address I could find for them, but I just got off the phone with Ray at Tokico in L.A. Apparently he was involved with the suspension testing on these cars a few years ago, and he said that the HP would correlate to about a 1.5 setting on the Illumina (for those who don't know, you have to set them in increments of 1). This also means they do overlap a bit with the HP. At least I have a reputable reference point now, and with my most recent Illumina settings in the 1-2 range, it would appear that my ride quality problems are not due to big differences in the struts. On that note, he also went on to say that they noticed that the MSP in particular didn't take well to being lowered too much and street driven, at least with their struts, because the ride quality deteriorated severely. He indicated that to maintain a decent ride quality and handling feel on the street, the MSP needs to keep as much of its suspension travel as possible. I'm sure this holds true in general for most cars, but it was surprising how distinctly he seemed to remember how the MSP behaved during their testing, so it apparently made an impression.
Either way, I'm glad for the info, and will probably keep my Illuminas, and therefore keep some adjustability. Now I just need to find a set of springs to my liking, and I bet they don't exist. I'd like something with the design and spring rate exactly like the Racing Beats, only with the front .75" lower than the RB when compressed.
That sounds good. You could always cut a coil on the front springs since they're linear.
There's no email address I could find for them, but I just got off the phone with Ray at Tokico in L.A. Apparently he was involved with the suspension testing on these cars a few years ago, and he said that the HP would correlate to about a 1.5 setting on the Illumina (for those who don't know, you have to set them in increments of 1). This also means they do overlap a bit with the HP. At least I have a reputable reference point now, and with my most recent Illumina settings in the 1-2 range, it would appear that my ride quality problems are not due to big differences in the struts. On that note, he also went on to say that they noticed that the MSP in particular didn't take well to being lowered too much and street driven, at least with their struts, because the ride quality deteriorated severely. He indicated that to maintain a decent ride quality and handling feel on the street, the MSP needs to keep as much of its suspension travel as possible. I'm sure this holds true in general for most cars, but it was surprising how distinctly he seemed to remember how the MSP behaved during their testing, so it apparently made an impression.
Either way, I'm glad for the info, and will probably keep my Illuminas, and therefore keep some adjustability. Now I just need to find a set of springs to my liking, and I bet they don't exist. I'd like something with the design and spring rate exactly like the Racing Beats, only with the front .75" lower than the RB when compressed.
For whatever difference it makes, the megan racing springs are stiff but don't drop the car as much as the goldlines, as CustomMSP pointed out. My friend got some iluminas and megan racing springs on his P5, with the struts set to 4 in front and 3 in back, the ride i went on didn't feel any worse than my stock setup. But of course i'm not as familiar with it as someone who drives the setup every day.
MrDiggler
12-12-2006, 05:43 PM
I've thought about it, but I'd be cutting off the flat-wound load bearing part of the spring to do it, and that worries me. If I knew for sure it wouldn't be a problem, I'd go for trimming them just a bit.
MrDiggler
12-12-2006, 05:47 PM
For whatever difference it makes, the megan racing springs are stiff but don't drop the car as much as the goldlines, as CustomMSP pointed out. My friend got some iluminas and megan racing springs on his P5, with the struts set to 4 in front and 3 in back, the ride i went on didn't feel any worse than my stock setup. But of course i'm not as familiar with it as someone who drives the setup every day.
Yeah, mine wouldn't be terribly noticeable to most passengers until I hit a sharp pavement transition or even a shallow pothole. Then it wants to knock your teeth out. Since I get about 20k miles a year of seat time on all kinds of roads, I unfortunately notice even the slightest changes in the ride & handling.
CustomMSP
12-12-2006, 06:49 PM
I've thought about it, but I'd be cutting off the flat-wound load bearing part of the spring to do it, and that worries me. If I knew for sure it wouldn't be a problem, I'd go for trimming them just a bit.
All of the aftermarket springs I've seen do not have a flattened out top coil.
MrDiggler
12-14-2006, 12:50 AM
All of the aftermarket springs I've seen do not have a flattened out top coil.
Yeah, I guess I didn't clarify. It's hard to tell in the pic on page 1, but even the end with the round wire is formed to go straight for half a turn on so on my RB's. I studied cutting it, but if I do the coil wire will be forced into the spring isolator pad at an angle, with most of the load carried right at the tip of the end I just cut. It may not matter, and I'm going to study on it some more. Tonight I gotta figure out why I'm getting a knocking from the right rear under susp. compression. Arrgghh.
MrDiggler
12-23-2006, 12:41 AM
Tonight I gotta figure out why I'm getting a knocking from the right rear under susp. compression. Arrgghh.
'Twas the upper endlink bolt. I use lock washers on them and it appeared tight, but it went another 1/2 turn before snugging up. Almost certain that the wheel bearing is going bad back there too. Getting some odd rythmic noises from that corner on the highway, and they change a bit under braking. Checked the pads and rotor (they're fine), but when I had the pads out and spun the rotor I could hear that the wheel bearing sounded a bit rough. Can't wait to change that.
MrDiggler
12-23-2006, 12:44 AM
Oh, and if anyone's read the Feb. SCC mag, that article on damper adjustment went a long way toward explaining what I don't like about this suspension setup. I think the rebound damping is a little high and delaying weight transfer, which would cause the weird feeling I get of initial push turning into sometimes dramatic oversteer. That was a great article.
could you by chance run some scans of it?? Sounds like a good read but i don't get that magazine
MrDiggler
01-29-2007, 03:25 PM
An update after another few thousand miles of driving...
I got the right rear wheel bearing replaced. No more noise. Glad it didn't seize on me while on a mountain road. I'm going to replace the left rear next week, and then I'll have new wheel bearings all the way around.
While digging through some recent issues of SCC, I ran across an early installment of their suspension tech series. (JMV- the scans would take forever. I'll see if I can get you the issue dates. You can order them, and it's a great series.) One of the things that was explained were the different centers: Roll center, center of gravity and instant center, as well as the all important roll couple. Now I think I know why I feel like my body roll increased and my handling quality deteriorated after lowering the front end so much. I'm betting (IIRC) my roll center dropped way down due to my stock suspension geometry, and dropped more than my CG did from the lowering. This increased the roll couple, and worsened my handling characteristics. It sounds like a classic case of overlowering, and also jives with what the R&D guy at Tokico said. Now I'm back to my original idea of using a factory front spring and cutting it just enough to give me about .75" drop over stock. If not, I need to find a front spring that isn't too stiff and will set the front end just where I want it. Fun, fun.
I'm still considering coilovers, but if I get them, I want a fully adjustable set. No cheap stuff. Most likely Tein with the EDC controller. Problem is, I just bought these Illuminas and I don't want to sink $1,500+ into the suspension right now. Not to mention, neither myself or my wife would be thrilled with the much higher spring rates of good coilovers.
I do love the "tucked" look though. I always get tons of compliments on Sparky, but they've increased since the drop. That's the main reason why I don't want to put the front back up to stock height. I'm willing to compromise just a bit.
JoshP5
01-29-2007, 04:41 PM
This is a very informative thread. Thanks for maintaining it.
The Illumina handling kit comes with springs rated at 185lb/in front, 145-200 rear according to the Protege FAQ, but the Goldlines are 140/130. This suggests that your setup is overdamped by some 30%, which is probably contributing to your handling problems, maybe more so than the radical drop.
MrDiggler
01-29-2007, 06:52 PM
Thanks man. I didn't even know they made such a kit for the Protege. I wonder where I'd get the springs? I definitely think I'm overdamped on at least the rebound damping, based on what I read in SCC's guide. There's a noticeable delay in the weight transfer happening, particularly around the longer back and forth s-curves. The delayed oversteer can be sudden and scary (and sometimes quite fun)!
JoshP5
01-29-2007, 07:25 PM
The Tokico part number is ILK248. The kit supposedly drops 1-1/4", so for your MSP it'd be 1/2" lower than stock. If that's low enough, maybe call Tokico back and explain the situation. They might sell just the springs, or at least tell you who their supplier is.
Otherwise, a lot of spring specifications are available at http://www.protegefaq.net/ and
http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?t=58798.
Good luck.
great thread. If you can find those dates for the articles, thats cool, if not no biggie.
I'm glad to see someone out there who is looking for the same kind of suspension setup i am, i'm going to continue following this thread closely to see what you ultimately end up with!!
MrDiggler
01-30-2007, 12:22 AM
great thread. If you can find those dates for the articles, thats cool, if not no biggie.
I'm glad to see someone out there who is looking for the same kind of suspension setup i am, i'm going to continue following this thread closely to see what you ultimately end up with!!
I found part 1 on SCC's website by searching for the title, "Making it Stick". I'll edit shortly with the info for the months they ran the rest of the series.
Part 1: http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/tech/0506scc_handling_cornering/index.html
JMV, if you would be kind enough to Paypal me a couple of grand, I'll be happy to research several combinations for ya. :D
hahahaha
ya well, i'm not expecting you to be my test mule, but i can learn from the info you gather for sure!!
:)
MrDiggler
03-05-2007, 02:14 AM
The Tokico part number is ILK248. The kit supposedly drops 1-1/4", so for your MSP it'd be 1/2" lower than stock. If that's low enough, maybe call Tokico back and explain the situation. They might sell just the springs, or at least tell you who their supplier is.
Otherwise, a lot of spring specifications are available at http://www.protegefaq.net/ and
http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?t=58798.
Good luck.
Looking for specs on the ILK248 right now. Not much out there. I'll try calling Tokico in the morning. Thanks for the info.
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