my loud engine knock

[redpr5]

so yall might remember me postin about the loud knock comin from my engine. well the thing is still runnin and i havent lost any oil pressure so im thinkin its not a spun rod bearing. and my cousin was tellin me that it sounds like it could be one of 3 things. a bad lifter, bad rocker arm, or bad valve. or a combination

so im just wonderin how hard it would be to replace any of the above

any input would be greatly appreciated

[Kansei]

Well hmm. I know that all 2002+ 2.0 proteges make an awful racket at idle when it's cold out because of the VTCS system in the intake manifold.

Here's a quick way to try and isolate the problem. Open the hood, and on top of the intake manifold back near the firewall there are two black solenoids with plugs going into the front of them. One plug is white, one is green. The one on the left (green plug if I recall correctly) is the VTCS solenoid. Disconnect the vaccuum line from the back of it (the line is coming from the intake manifold, it goes to a T and then one side goes to VTCS, one to VICS. When you unplug that vaccuum line, cap the line with your finger so you don't introduce a vaccuum leak. If the noise goes away, it was VTCS.

Another way to check would be to get the engine nice and warmed up (drive around for 10 minutes) and then see if it still makes the noise.

Rocker arms.. we don't have those, I think those are on pushrod engines, right? It could just be the noise of having solid lifters perhaps? I dunno.

[redpr5]

the engine does it all the time, no matter what. but only through the 2200-3000 rpm range (so that eliminates rod knock and spun rod/main bearing)

i know its not vtcs

im thinkin broken valve or warped lifter. prices on those would be awesome. thinkin about openin the top up this weekend with a friend of mine who knows whats what about internals, and fixin this before i destroy a camshaft

[Brian MP5T]

Get a Mechanic's stethoscope and listen to where it's coming from..

http://www.etoolcart.com/ProductImages/lisle/LIS-52500.jpg
(http://www.etoolcart.com/ProductImages/lisle/LIS-52500.jpg)

[Captain KRM P5]

compression test wouldn't hurt either

[redpr5]

mechanics stethescope. ill check those out

how much does a compression test cost?

[Captain KRM P5]

mechanics stethescope. ill check those out

how much does a compression test cost?

it can be done by you for free :) tester ranges between 25 and 50

[redpr5]

ah awesome. do places like autozone sell them?

[Captain KRM P5]

ah awesome. do places like autozone sell them?

bought mine from them, yes

[redpr5]

awesome. ill have to make a trip over there soon

what is the optimum compression for this car?

[RatLabGuy]

Mechanic's Stethescpoe is very cool.
However, you can be "old school" and do the same thing for free.

Find a screwdriver w/ the longest blade you can. A metal rod of any kind will work, just helps most for it to be solid and straight (AKA no threads, bends etc).
Place one end on the part you want to "list" to. Now stick the otehr end on your temple bone, right i nfront of your ear. You will "hear" the sound just like it can through your ear.

For those nerds that are curious, this works via what's called "bone conduction". Normally sounds get through your ears and trsmitted through some neat little bones in your middle ear, which then is translated to "neural signals" in the inner ear through their vibration. This trick is vibrating those same bones by using your skull to transmit the energy, with the same end effect.

I am not very familiar with these engines (yet), that is my disclaimer. However do not give up on the lower end quite yet, one possibility (gulp) is a loose rod bearing. It's possible for it to rattle only within a certain RPM range, I had this happen on my 22re once. If it is someting loose or slapping, I'm suspicious that a compresison test will not tell you much; however for the $$ (free if you bum a gauge), it's definitely worth the effort. Or at least a good excuse to "have" to buy one so you'll have it for later use as well.

With the bone/steth test, at least narrow try to narrow it down to 2 things - a general locatiuon (top vs bottom, front/back etc) nad the relative timing. AKA, does it happen w/ every cylinder fire, 1 time per revolution, 2x per revolution, etc. That will guide your further searching.

[Brian MP5T]

^^^ That is very cool, but IMO the Mechanic's Stethescpoe is so cheap that it should be in everyones tool box..

P.S. 10,000 Posts BIACH

[pasadena_commut]

^^^ That is very cool, but IMO the Mechanic's Stethescpoe is so cheap that it should be in everyones tool box..

P.S. 10,000 Posts BIACH

I got one on sale from Harbor Freight for $3.00 about a year ago, and the list price is only $6

http://da.harborfreight.com/cpisearch/web/search.do?keyword=stethoscope&Submit=Go

Bone conduction is fine for testing for hearing defects with a tuning fork but probably not the wisest choice for listening to motors. Do you really want to wedge a steel rod between your only skull and a massive vibrating object like an engine? It would be really unpleasant if the motor kicked forward a cm or so and drove that rod into your head. Hammer. Nail. Get the point? Not a problem with the stethoscope where rubber hose can absorb the shock instead of your cranium.

[redpr5]

the rattle is every cylinder fire its just a constant knock, like if you roll your tounge (like youre rollin an r) and make that sound, same idea.

im pretty sure its top end, because i doubt it would be this loud if it was bottom end, but ill def get a stethescope and find out where its comin from. im hopin that its just a valve or somethin, somethin that me and one of my friends can fix ourselves for cheap

[Captain KRM P5]

awesome. ill have to make a trip over there soon

what is the optimum compression for this car?

180psi on each cylinder

[Kansei]

180psi on each cylinder

Is that factory specs or is that what any decently-running Protege should have? I doubt at over 75k miles of redlining goodness my engine has no wear :P

[i12drivemyMP5]

the engine does it all the time, no matter what. but only through the 2200-3000 rpm range (so that eliminates rod knock and spun rod/main bearing)

i know its not vtcs

im thinkin broken valve or warped lifter. prices on those would be awesome. thinkin about openin the top up this weekend with a friend of mine who knows whats what about internals, and fixin this before i destroy a camshaft If it was a broken valve it wouldn't run worth a shit if at all.

[Captain KRM P5]

Is that factory specs or is that what any decently-running Protege should have? I doubt at over 75k miles of redlining goodness my engine has no wear :P

engine manual says minimum 'allowed' compression is 120psi, maximum is 180psi. you do not want to be more than 20% out on one cylinder. for example, if you get;

Cyl 1: 180 psi
Cyl 2: 178 psi
Cyl 3: 179 psi
Cyl 4: 171 psi

you are fine because all the cylinders are within tolerance and within 20% of each other. if you get;

Cyl 1: 180 psi
Cyl 2: 178 psi
Cyl 3: 179 psi
Cyl 4: 139 psi

you have a problem because one of your cylinders is more than 20% lower than the others. causes for low compression can be fried piston rings, engine out of time, camshaft out of time, etc.

[Mike R]

My car had a rod bearing out of spec, and that is the exact same thing it did.

[Brian MP5T]

^^^That is a fairly easy fix if fixed before it's allowed to do major damage...

A "Saturday Job"

[Kansei]

^^^That is a fairly easy fix if fixed before it's allowed to do major damage...

A "Saturday Job"

If that's a quick fix for you.. come on down to Rochester and install my turbo kit when I get all the parts together :P

[randyscycle]

A very quick way to eliminate the bottom end, is to disable the cylinders one at a time while the engine is running. This takes the load off and will tell you if it is the piston, pin, or rod. I am not very familiar with the engine in question, but if you can remove one plug wire at a time and see which one makes the noise go away. If this has a coil on each plug it may be impossible to do.

Top end noises will not go away using this procedure, so that can help determine where its coming from. If you have a bad enough rod or main bearing, the oil pressure would be pretty low warm. Wrist pins usually give a double knock, and are more pronounced on decel.

[RatLabGuy]

Bone conduction is fine for testing for hearing defects with a tuning fork but probably not the wisest choice for listening to motors. Do you really want to wedge a steel rod between your only skull and a massive vibrating object like an engine? It would be really unpleasant if the motor kicked forward a cm or so and drove that rod into your head. Hammer. Nail. Get the point? Not a problem with the stethoscope where rubber hose can absorb the shock instead of your cranium.

Eh.... it's the little dangers in life that make it fun (ughdance) (glare) . You gotta take some risks in life, eh?
I also have long below-shoulder length hair, and make sure it droops and hangs all over the pulleys when I do this.... oh yeah and use a lighter to find gas leaks too (omg)

come on man, of course you should use some comon sense when it comes to things like this. That's why I said a LONG screwdriver!

Randycycle is onto something - when in doubt, disconnect things!

[randyscycle]

Eh.... it's the little dangers in life that make it fun (ughdance) (glare) . You gotta take some risks in life, eh?
I also have long below-shoulder length hair, and make sure it droops and hangs all over the pulleys when I do this.... oh yeah and use a lighter to find gas leaks too (omg)

come on man, of course you should use some comon sense when it comes to things like this. That's why I said a LONG screwdriver!

Randycycle is onto something - when in doubt, disconnect things!

But be sure you don't electrocute yourself!! I see the potential for a lawsuit, and at least a cool million. Heck, why not go for 10 million.......

I've used the screwdriver trick for many of my 20 years as a tech and so far so good. No nail/hammer thing yet. Maybe a little vibration to the brain. Although that may explain my weird obsession with rusty old Mazda trucks.......

[xelderx]

Come find me and let me listen to it. I've heard every possible engine knock the FS-DE can come up with.

[redpr5]

Come find me and let me listen to it. I've heard every possible engine knock the FS-DE can come up with.
alright. ill be at the mattress firm this saturday at probably around 9:30 if you wanna roll up there.

let me know what works for you saturday, cuz thatll be my free day.



the wrist pin theory sounds pretty good to me, because the sound its makin is WAY louder on decel especially at 70mph+

[RatLabGuy]

Haha I just noticed, you guys are just down the road from me too, i'm just outside Winston-Salem.

[xelderx]

alright. ill be at the mattress firm this saturday at probably around 9:30 if you wanna roll up there.

let me know what works for you saturday, cuz thatll be my free day.

the wrist pin theory sounds pretty good to me, because the sound its makin is WAY louder on decel especially at 70mph+

I'll be on my way to Richmond for an AutoX. Will you be around Friday night?

[redpr5]

yea, i should be able to make a run out on friday.

when and where?

yea RatLab i was up in winston on the 28th of october for the southeastern blowout, not sure if you went or heard about it. but its a new car show for the south east.

[RatLabGuy]

yea, i should be able to make a run out on friday.

when and where?

yea RatLab i was up in winston on the 28th of october for the southeastern blowout, not sure if you went or heard about it. but its a new car show for the south east.

Um, no, didn't know about it. Shoot, woulda loved to have gone.

[Brian MP5T]

If that's a quick fix for you.. come on down to Rochester and install my turbo kit when I get all the parts together :P

Once you get from this...

http://www.msprotege.com/members/Brian%20MP5T/Stage%204%20Weight%20Reduction.jpg

To This... and it actually runs... Nothing is a hard job..

http://www.msprotege.com/members/Brian%20MP5T/New%20Stuff%20For%20UL%20-%20%2827%29.jpg.jpg

[Kansei]

(bow)http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=ottawa,+on+to+rochester,+ny&ie=UTF8&z=8&om=1

haha

[redpr5]

Um, no, didn't know about it. Shoot, woulda loved to have gone.
ah yea, most ppl didnt know, so it was a real small show
but its at the forsyth county career center

www.southeasternblowout.com

it was a good show

[redpr5]

UPDATE!!!
id like to thank everybody for their input.
the protege was at the shop gettin the rear brakes replaced (fronts have never been touched hmmmmmmmmm)

the mechanic said that it IS in fact a thrown bearing on cylinder 4. so im gettin a new fs-de with like 30000miles
protege is down for the count till next tuesday.

zoom zoom boom x1 lol

[Kansei]

UPDATE!!!
id like to thank everybody for their input.
the protege was at the shop gettin the rear brakes replaced (fronts have never been touched hmmmmmmmmm)

the mechanic said that it IS in fact a thrown bearing on cylinder 4. so im gettin a new fs-de with like 30000miles
protege is down for the count till next tuesday.

zoom zoom boom x1 lol

:( ouch. *knock on wood* I've made it through 75k miles of excessive redlining while cornering hard fun.

[redpr5]

yea ouch is right
$3000 installed

youre lucky. the knock started for me at like 78000 and the car has 86000 on it now....yeaaaaaaaaa

watch yourself with that engine lol

[Kansei]

yea ouch is right
$3000 installed

youre lucky. the knock started for me at like 78000 and the car has 86000 on it now....yeaaaaaaaaa

watch yourself with that engine lol

not what I wanted to hear!!! *eep*

I'll probably be turbo before 80k miles haha.

[redpr5]

not what I wanted to hear!!! *eep*

I'll probably be turbo before 80k miles haha.
yea i bet its not.
ah thats cool. so youre lookin at a rebuild anyways then i take it?

[pasadena_commut]

$3000 installed


Why couldn't just that one bearing be replaced? Is it easier or cheaper to replace the whole motor?

[redpr5]

Why couldn't just that one bearing be replaced? Is it easier or cheaper to replace the whole motor?
yea the guy said that parts and labor would cost more than buying a new engine and installing it. itd be about $4000 to rebuild

[xelderx]

You can't get to the #4 bearing with the motor attached to the tranny. Might as well pull it anyway. Let me know what they are going to do with that broken motor. I might be interested in it.

[redpr5]

You can't get to the #4 bearing with the motor attached to the tranny. Might as well pull it anyway. Let me know what they are going to do with that broken motor. I might be interested in it.

alright. ill ask the guy tomorrow when i call him if he can hold on to it

[RatLabGuy]

I am not very familiar with these engines (yet), that is my disclaimer. However do not give up on the lower end quite yet, one possibility (gulp) is a loose rod bearing. It's possible for it to rattle only within a certain RPM range....

WOW holy crap, score one for Ratty on a complete guess!

Well maybe not complete, more like somewhat educated through painful experience (including financial extraction through the rectal area...)

As I said I'm somewhat unfamilar with these motors; for some motors, loose bearing means immediate death, for others it can keep going a long time w/o damage. Maybe you got lucky, I don't know.

Typically if the bearings are loose enough to make some noise, then there will be more damage than just that. That wiggling allows the bottom end of the connecting rod to shake around, wallowing it out, and even worse, slowly wallowing the corresponding journal on the crankshaft. if thsi has happened, then the crank has to be at least resurfaced, more likely replaced... eitehr way it has to come out. in order to get that out, the whole block has to be disconnected form the transmission and anything attaced to teh front of it. IOW, whole thing must come out.

now in theory, though, you could just fix/replace the crank and all bearings (they have to all match) but leave the pistons and block as-is, don't really "rebuild" the motor at all. Being a toyota guy, maybe i'm biased but 86k is just broken in (ughdance).
But then you balance the "deal" you get on a whole new engine... .compare cost of the above labor verses the total on everything new...

O BTW, I *seriously doubt* they will just give you the old motor. the manufacturers always take the old one as a "core" to rebuild, they think of it like a trade. The steel alone is worth something if only recycled. When you buy a new motor, you have to turn in the old one, else you'll pay several hundred dollars more.

[redpr5]

well the motor im gettin is used. but who knows, im gonna ask anyways.

[redpr5]

THE PROTEGE IS BACK!!! :D im happy! sounds good now, its all quiet, just the usual valve ticking

[xelderx]

THE PROTEGE IS BACK!!! :D im happy! sounds good now, its all quiet, just the usual valve ticking

Awesome...glad to hear it worked out OK.

[Brian MP5T]

Great News.

[redpr5]

great news indeed!

and justin i was gonna keep the old one so you could have it, but id have to pay like an extra $300 to keep it :( so sorry man

[xelderx]

great news indeed!

and justin i was gonna keep the old one so you could have it, but id have to pay like an extra $300 to keep it :( so sorry man

Don't worry about it. I've got 2 extras already in the garage and I'm running out of shelf space.

[redpr5]

haha alright then