Baby seat safety in a 5

[Scott Y]

Hi. I'm seriously considering a 5speed Touring, I think it's the most intelligent vehicle design made available in North America in years. Space efficient, fuel efficient, looks nice. Underpowered maybe, but it's built to a price point.

We currently have a 540i, with a babyseat in the middle of the backseat. I feel very safe in that car, and my daughter is protected from side impacts because she's in the middle of the car. With a Mz5, she'll be on one side or the other (probably passenger side); does anyone feel that there is an inherent safety risk with not having the child seat in the middle? Will a Mz5 crumple like the proverbial tin can upon impact when compared to a much-much more expensive BMW? For the record I've never been in an accident, so my reference points for this type of event are based in conjecture instead of personal historical events.

Is there any opinion on whether or not a 2006 Mz5 will be near as safe as a '97 540i? Rereading the question makes it sound silly as the cars are built to very different price points, but the question is real. With airbags plus 10 years of improved construction techniques, will my family in a Mz5 be even close to as protected as they are currently in the BMW?

As a side note, I'm talking in terms of vehicle construction preventing bodily injury in case of a collision. The BMW is build like a tank and has excellent acceleration/handling/braking/tires to avoid accidents. I don't expect the Mazda to compete dynamically, I'm looking for opinions of Mz5 owners regarding how they feel in 75mph interstate intercity travel and in urban surface street travel.

The reason we're considering the 5 is because the 540i is not space efficient, it's 9 years old with 85K on the clock (we bought it used in '04 with 62K on it for roughly the cost of a new Mz5), and the interior is cramped for how large the car is so we can't take wagons or other large kid items to parks or to the zoo in comfort. It's a little big for urban runabout duties, and truthfully feels a bit wasteful when just driving it to work and back. Driven carefully I can get 21 mpg in city driving, but driven normally mileage goes down to about 17. Highway mileage is great, over 26 at very high speeds. It's a beautiful car and I love it, but I can't help but keep investigating the Mz5....

Thanks for any input!
Scott Y

[jandree22]

When it comes to safety, the Mazda5 is a winner! --> http://www.euroncap.com/images/results/mini_mpvs/car_241_2005/Mazda%205%20Datasheet%203.pdf

Hopefully the Mazda5 works out for you and fits your needs... and welcome!

Piece of advice, though. Especially considering you already own a Beemer 5-Series, at all costs avoid referring to the Mazda5 as the "M5". For some peculiar reason there seems to be a whole mess of BMW vigilantes on these boards that'll throw a hissy fit if you do! (lol2)

[CrazyCaker]

Believe it or not, but there has been studies done that show the safest place for a child safety seat is behind the driver's seat. This is were my wife & I have our son's in our 5.

[Jager12]

I got my 2 year old also behind me

[CrazyCaker]

I wish I could find a copy of this study. It was on a local news report here not too long ago. According to the study, most of the recorded accidents had frontal and passenger side impacts over the duration that the study was conducted.

[Lazy Glen]

When we had our first kid we agonized over where to put the seat based on convienince, safety and accesability. Then we realized that once we had a second child we would have to decide which kid we loved more and put them in the "BEST" seat. We quit trying to figure it out at that point.

I think that the addition of side curtain airbags in the Mz5 more than makes up for the move from a high end BMW to a $20k Mazda. Don't forget that there is 9 more years of technology built into the frame and crumple zones of the Mazda as well.

It would be different equation if you were comparing it to a current model BMW, but I think that an 06 Mz5 beats most any 97 for safety.

Lazy Glen

[jandree22]

Plus, admitedly this factor is minimal, but since the 5 sits a little higher, an impact by another vehicle will better allow a hit to the crumple zone (metal) than creating an inward explosion of glass. As far as the glass goes, the airbags would protect against that, too. I know that's not very pretty to think of, but just another point to consider.

[doctorz]

I've done a few talks on child seat safety, and I'm not aware of any child inury studies that looked specifically at where in the rear seat a child was sitting. All the studies I've seen compared front versus rear seat only. It's pretty hard to get data on enough young kids in accidents to be able to compare the center versus outboard positions, since this tends not to be recorded. One good study on front versus rear seat that I saw from a major child injury research center (Children's Hospital of Philadelphia) had to rely on parental recall on seating position.

Also keep in mind that lap and shoulder belts were required for outboard rear seating positions starting in 1990, and center lap and shoulder belts weren't required until this model year. I'm aware that many cars had center lap and shoulder belts even in the 1990s--my '99 Protege has it--but the lack of standardized seat belts across the board is going to limit what you can conclude from comparing center versus outboard.

If you look on the NHTSA and American Academy of Pediatrics web sites, you'll see the only thing recommended is the rear seat for all children. The data is pretty clear on front versus rear seating. I couldn't find anything about center position from these organizations. The center seat recommendation that you'll find from certain organizations comes from the fact that historically child injury and death rates were highest from side impact collisions versus front (lower) and rear (lowest). It makes a certain amount of common sense, but that's about it.

Regarding the Mazda5 versus a ten year old BMW 5-series, that's a tough one, since BMWs are built like tanks. But...the Mazda5 has the side air bags, side beams, and the seats have LATCH anchors (in the middle) and tethers to ease your child seat installation, which the BMW doesn't. The combination of rear seat and correct car seat installation is going to make the biggest difference in your daughter's safety. Certainly, I think a 2007 BMW 5-series is likely superior, but you're talking about two very safe cars to begin with.

Finally, we have two kids, so the center position isn't an option no matter which way you look at it.

[Lazy Glen]

... the seats have LATCH anchors (in the middle) and tethers to ease your child seat installation...

Not to steal the thread, but can the latch belt be purchased seperately?

A friend whose child we drive around occasionally has a seat that has a strap with hooks on the end that attaches to the latch points. This seems a lot easier to get tight than threading the seatbelt and pulling and sitting and so forth. The car seat that we have has a teather, but nothing to hook to the latch points.

I guess I should look more closely at the car seats next time I'm in a boxmart.

Lazy Glen

[doctorz]

Not to steal the thread, but can the latch belt be purchased seperately?

A friend whose child we drive around occasionally has a seat that has a strap with hooks on the end that attaches to the latch points. This seems a lot easier to get tight than threading the seatbelt and pulling and sitting and so forth. The car seat that we have has a teather, but nothing to hook to the latch points.

I know some car seats can be retrofitted with LATCH--I've seen the kit--but I think it depends on the car seat. You may want to look up the model number of your car seat online and contact the manufacturer. I agree, LATCH makes correct car seat installation much easier. You still have to sit on the car seat to minimize the slack, but there's none of this threading, push and pull stuff you have to do with a regular seatbelt.

One thought, though--in theory car seats shouldn't be used for more than five years. The manufacturers say that the integrity of the plastic can't be guaranteed. Most of them have expiration dates on a sticker, but if not, the date of manufacture is on there somewhere, and you add five years. I know LATCH has been standard on car seats since September 2002, so if your car seat doesn't have LATCH, I'm betting it's older than four years old and you're coming up on having to replace the car seat anyway per recommended guidelines. We're currently in the same position with one of our car seats.

[mountjonas]

Believe it or not, but there has been studies done that show the safest place for a child safety seat is behind the driver's seat. This is were my wife & I have our son's in our 5.

that's where we put our 4 month old daughter.

[Scoot]

Not to steal the thread, but can the latch belt be purchased seperately?

A friend whose child we drive around occasionally has a seat that has a strap with hooks on the end that attaches to the latch points. This seems a lot easier to get tight than threading the seatbelt and pulling and sitting and so forth. The car seat that we have has a teather, but nothing to hook to the latch points.

I guess I should look more closely at the car seats next time I'm in a boxmart.

Lazy Glen

All new Premacy/5 are manufactured with ISOFIX points (thats the European name) and I think this equates to LATCH in the states.

EuroNCAP JNCAP etc have given the 5 a good rating on side impact no doubt due to active safety features plus as a consequence of the sliding side doors and their construction requirements.

In the UK, studies have shown that the greatest risks associated with child safety were due to incorrect fitment of seatbelt secured child seats. Their integrity only assured when fitted correctly (belt location and tensioning).

The problems arise when the seat is fitted and removed regularly, when more often that not, the seat is not secured properly.

Isofix/Latch overcomes this with points fitted to the chassis for the Isofix seat to secure directly to. Combined with a stabiliser bar and if a forward facing seat (18 months plus) a top tether secured from the child seat to the lower back of the car seat.

In Japan the attitude to child safety is (well I'll be polite) 'a bit inconsistent'. Consequently, even though Japanese manufacturers make vehicles with ISOFIX points, Isofix seats are almost non-existent, with the first supplies of Roemer Isofix seat just becoming available.

I flew to the UK and brought an ISOFIX seat and base (the base secures permanently and the seat simply unclips) back with me in order to feel safe.

I definitely think that its worth looking for this type of secure seat arrangement in order to protect your children as best as possible.

Another issue of concern in the UK was from use of a child seat in the front passenger position without the passenger airbag disabled.

[canadianexpress]

Believe it or not, but there has been studies done that show the safest place for a child safety seat is behind the driver's seat. This is were my wife & I have our son's in our 5.

I volunteer with St John Ambulance in the Toronto area to install child seats. Our in class lesson, have the rear passenger side as the safer side ( 2% less when vehicles are involved in accidents ). Also another thing to consider is if the vehicle breaks down on a highway, which side would you want your child seat to be at? We have installed thousands of childseats this year and most rear facing (3 in 1 not the infant carrier) usually do not fit in the middle and we recommend rear passenger as the next safest. But in my opinion where it is located is not as important as if the seats are installed properly. 85 to 90% of seats that we see, are not properly installed. I have my son on the rear passenger and he is now 2 years old.

[CrazyCaker]

I volunteer with St John Ambulance in the Toronto area to install child seats. Our in class lesson, have the rear passenger side as the safer side ( 2% less when vehicles are involved in accidents ). Also another thing to consider is if the vehicle breaks down on a highway, which side would you want your child seat to be at? We have installed thousands of childseats this year and most rear facing (3 in 1 not the infant carrier) usually do not fit in the middle and we recommend rear passenger as the next safest. But in my opinion where it is located is not as important as if the seats are installed properly. 85 to 90% of seats that we see, are not properly installed. I have my son on the rear passenger and he is now 2 years old.

Wow, talk about mixed information lol. I think it was on CityTV (I'm sure you know how they cover this stuff on BreakfastTV) and some OPP officer was saying behind the driver's seat is safest, studies show, blah blah blah. This is where I think I heard it from.

[doctorz]

But in my opinion where it is located is not as important as if the seats are installed properly. 85 to 90% of seats that we see, are not properly installed. I have my son on the rear passenger and he is now 2 years old.

Good to see your post and your insight. I couldn't agree more that correct, proper installation is going to make the biggest difference, as well as using the rear seat regardless of location.

One more point about center rear versus LATCH: many cars don't have a center LATCH anchor set because there isn't enough room to put properly spaced anchors (11 inches minimum). LATCH's value is how much easier it makes proper car seat installation. It is possible to install a car seat properly using seatbelts and make it just as safe as a car seat that uses LATCH anchors, but it's difficult.

The Mazda5 does not have LATCH anchors in the third row, so our two year old stays behind the driver in a car seat that's never moved while our booster seat-riding six year old usually sits behind the passenger seat but moves around as needed for other passengers.

[X10James]

the data is hard to follow because we're talking about such small differences now. We've fixed the really big impact stuff and we're down to sorting through the last few percentage points. What was it, like 2% more side impact accidents happen against the passenger side when making a left hand turn after the light has turned red, therefore the drivers side is safer. But it's really not if you dont try to push through that yellow light making a turn. Course, I'm sure there are other reasons too...

As has already been said, proper installation and belt tension is the single best thing you can do. It doesn't make any sense at all to worry about drivers vs passenger side if your seat is loose! Get a new car seat with the proper latch points.

The 5 has gotten excellent safety ratings and with the proper install of a child seat it's as safe a place for your kids as any other modern car.

I have 2 kids and my younger one sits on the passenger side as I often drive him alone, and it's much more dangerous for me to be trying to turn all the way around to see whats the matter with him than to put him in passenger side where I can see him in the mirror ;) My daughter has graduated to a booster seat which doesn't latch down at all and so can be easily moved to the far back to accommodate another adult in the second row when necessary. So keep in mind that it's only the baby seats that it matters for anyway, once your kids reach 4 or 5 or the proper weight to move to a booster the lack of latch points in the far back doesn't matter any more as those seats dont use them.

[canadianexpress]

Just want to add that after proper installation, LATCH is not any better or safer than seatbelts, just different and both are effective. Another component that is overlooked is the harness.

1) After tightening 1 finger space at the collar bone (I find most people think they will hurt their baby and do not tighten enough, remember less movement is better)
2) chest clip at armpit level (hardest point on the baby)
3A) Rear facing - Harness at or below shoulder level
3B) Forward facing - Harness at or above should level

[jandree22]

I have a concern with the side curtain airbags. If they deploy, are they going to put the baby in danger? I’m thinking they won’t deploy down quite far enough to interfere with the car seat, but wasn’t sure.

[Kid Red]

The 5 rocks, simple. The latch system for seat belt side to side fit, then the top latch runs thru the headrest and down the rear of the 2nd row seats to the final latch. So all 3 latches are engaged on the car seat, good clearance between the seat and the door, side curtain airbags and nimble handling and ABS should help as much as any non tank vehicle.

Not to mention almost 3 feet or wide open space to get the little one in and out of the car seat. No awkward back-splitting, parking in the back to give clearance so no one bangs the car, no worries that you back up, hit the door and it flies into the car parked next to you, etc. I love it.

[doctorz]

I have a concern with the side curtain airbags. If they deploy, are they going to put the baby in danger?

see http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/ncap/airbags/pages/SABFAQs.htm.

To my knowledge no studies in medical journals have critically looked at the impact of side air bags and children. NHTSA says limited experience says curtain air bags are okay, but data is still being analyzed.

[Wuster]

Having just adjusted both car seats this weekend, I did noticed that both seats fit within the footprint of the two middle row captain's chairs.

So if the side curtain airbags did deploy, it should deploy between the window the car seats. It should not impact the car seats.

[jandree22]

Great, good info guys… thanks!

[coolmazda5]

Great info for the MZ5, thanks!

Wife 2.0 and I did some research on car seating for babies and also found that some seats seem to be safer than others. I hope not to be making a baby seat commercial here but the Graco Quattro model topped the list in our research (pic attached). If you have any pics, please share them as well. I haven't seen many MZ5s with baby car seats so it would be interesting to see the different styles (for all ages).

Of course, make sure that somebody like canadianexpress looks at your install. Do not follow the pics as the installation manual (spin)

Our seat is fit in the back of the passenger seat. That little back mirror is proven to be very useful as well.

[doctorz]

Last year a colleague and I did a presentation on belt-positioning booster seats, and my then-six year old daughter was a willing accomplice/model, as shown in this photo. She's now seven and a half and still happily sits in the booster. The tough part is having friends that don't use booster seats, which is technically legal in Maryland but not a good idea if the belts don't fit.

Note the convertible car seat in the background, which is where daughter #2, who's now almost three years old, sat until we got a new car seat for her (see below). That particular seat is nicely attached to the LATCH anchors and the tether. I took the headrest off that seat to make the seat fit better.

The convertible car seat in the picture now sits in my Protege; a high back booster seat currently sits in our 5, still attached to the LATCH anchors and the tether anchor. That's the seat that uses the 5-point harness until the child reaches 40 pounds, at which point the harness is removed and the regular seat belts are used instead. I'll post pics of that car seat when I get a chance to take pictures.

BTW, we keep towels under the car seats--catches all sorts of debris, garbage, etc. Scary what bits manage to filter their way under the car seats.

[jandree22]

I hope not to be making a baby seat commercial here but the Graco Quattro model topped the list in our research (pic attached).
Just to clear this up, I think you mean the Graco SnugRide car seat? Quattro is a Stroller/Car Seat Travel system, but the actual seat used in that system is a SnugRide. That too, is what I purchased, and I get the feeling it’s widely the most popular infant seat chosen. Just curious are you using LATCH or your seatbelt for the Graco?

Thanks for those pics guys!

[Wuster]

BTW, we keep towels under the car seats--catches all sorts of debris, garbage, etc. Scary what bits manage to filter their way under the car seats.

I did the towel thing till about four months ago. I was in the local Target and in the automotive department, they had car seat mats on clearance for $6 each. It's water proof, and comes with two mesh pockets that you can stick CD's, sunglasses, etc. in.

It sorta looks like this but different colors and two pockets instead of one.

http://www.target.com/gp/detail.html/sr=1-2/qid=1174568349/ref=sr_1_2/601-6911280-2166568?ie=UTF8&asin=B0001EM8I2

If you go to the baby department at Target, you can only find the Eddie Bauer version for $25.

[coolmazda5]

Jandree, you are right! The seat is the SnugRide model. I got the whole "travel system" hence the Quattro name.

BTW, You may have already found out that they are proudly from PA State :cool:

Mine is using the seat belt and the latch if I'm not mistaken. The seat belt gets lose after some rides regardless of the locking clip.

I also got the seat protector thingie in Target as Wuster did.

Here is the only model we found though:
http://www.target.com/gp/detail.html/sr=1-2/qid=1174591120/ref=sr_1_2/601-5974201-9161729?ie=UTF8&asin=B000COW82C


Thanks DoctorZ for the pic!

[jandree22]

BTW, You may have already found out that they are proudly from PA State
That, I did not know... thanks for the juicy tidbit of info ;)

[ChadSpeed]

Jandree, you are right! The seat is the SnugRide model. I got the whole "travel system" hence the Quattro name.

BTW, You may have already found out that they are proudly from PA State :cool:

Mine is using the seat belt and the latch if I'm not mistaken. The seat belt gets lose after some rides regardless of the locking clip.

I also got the seat protector thingie in Target as Wuster did.

Here is the only model we found though:
http://www.target.com/gp/detail.html/sr=1-2/qid=1174591120/ref=sr_1_2/601-5974201-9161729?ie=UTF8&asin=B000COW82C


Thanks DoctorZ for the pic!

I bought 2 Eddie Bauer seat protectors, they match the 5s interior and are leather/cloth combo and look great. I also use the latch with our 16mo sons seat, its a 5 point harness type, also Eddie Bauer, also matches the 5 interior. Women they have to match everything, but I did have trouble figuring out were to run the top latch of the seat, I tried running it down behind the car seat but in front of the seat back and thru the space between the seat back and seat bottom. That worked okay, but I changed it because I didn't think it was right, then ran it under the headrest and down the back of the seat, and that works also, except that you can't lower the headrest all the way down.

[Wuster]

If you take the headrest off and flip them around (so they're facing backwards) then you shouldn't have any problems with the top tether.

I learned it with my old Mazda3 hatch.

[ChadSpeed]

If you take the headrest off and flip them around (so they're facing backwards) then you shouldn't have any problems with the top tether.

I learned it with my old Mazda3 hatch.


Hell yes, thanks so much.(cabpatch)

[coolmazda5]

Just checking, better be safe than sorry ;).

I just got a new baby car seat (yeah, yeah my little monster has almost outgrown the Graco SnugRide seat) and should be installed rear facing. The question is: Apart from the back seat tethers, Does the MZ5 have any of those on the floor? The MZ5 manual says nothing plus I have not seen any. I'm all set with the normal latches (same thing as the old seat).

The new seat is a Britax Marathon. Its manual shows the floor tether as the first option. As a 2nd option it shows the tether strap crossing overhead to get to the back seat tether. Of course option 1 looks/feels better but I don't care as long as its safe.

Oh, me likes the colors. Black n gray matching the car seats :D

[starlightmica]

I've used the Britax tether loop to attach the smaller Roundabout to the seat track. Here's a handy web site with lots of pics:

http://www.angelfire.com/wa3/isakswings/ratetherrf.html

[coolmazda5]

I've used the Britax tether loop to attach the smaller Roundabout to the seat track. Here's a handy web site with lots of pics:

http://www.angelfire.com/wa3/isakswings/ratetherrf.html

Thanks for the tip startlightmica. Good ideas. I'll give it a try!

For a duh! minute I had the morning thought that the Mazda5 had a tether (anchor) on the floor but under the carpet but needed to be "uncovered". Good thing I did not start ripping the damn thing off... (freak) :D

[jeffpurd]

I'm certainly no expert on these things but for some reason, I thought when these things were rear-facing, they were designed to sort of flop up against the seat in a collision. Thinking about it more, I guess that would only really ever happen in a rear-end collision, so it's probably moot. Intuitively, it seems better to be firmly tethered but it's interesting that no manufacturers provide them for LATCH tethers on the floor (to my knowledge) for the rear-facing situation.

[canadianexpress]

Just checking, better be safe than sorry ;).

I just got a new baby car seat (yeah, yeah my little monster has almost outgrown the Graco SnugRide seat) and should be installed rear facing. The question is: Apart from the back seat tethers, Does the MZ5 have any of those on the floor? The MZ5 manual says nothing plus I have not seen any. I'm all set with the normal latches (same thing as the old seat).

- No the Mazda does not have the tether on the floor, that manual mentions it is for Europe.

The new seat is a Britax Marathon. Its manual shows the floor tether as the first option. As a 2nd option it shows the tether strap crossing overhead to get to the back seat tether. Of course option 1 looks/feels better but I don't care as long as its safe.

- Transport Canada have tested this seat without using the tether for rear facing, and it has passed.so right now the 2nd option is just that optional if you like to install it that way. I find it very difficult to put the child in the seat iwith the second option.

Oh, me likes the colors. Black n gray matching the car seats :D

- Also just by looking at the pic you posted, the seat looks too upright. Ideal position is 45 degress for the backrest relative to the ground. The best way to do this is to tape together 3 to 4 pool noodle (about 10 to 12 inches long) and then install the seat on them.

Hope this helps.

[canadianexpress]

I'm certainly no expert on these things but for some reason, I thought when these things were rear-facing, they were designed to sort of flop up against the seat in a collision. Thinking about it more, I guess that would only really ever happen in a rear-end collision, so it's probably moot. Intuitively, it seems better to be firmly tethered but it's interesting that no manufacturers provide them for LATCH tethers on the floor (to my knowledge) for the rear-facing situation.

The rear seats are designed to flex down (absorbing the shock) and then back up. You should always leave 1 inch of clearance from the back of front seat to the back (rear facking only) of the child seat. If the back of the front seat is in the way, the energy of the impact is going through the child as oppose to the seat. Unfortunately this info is never mentioned in any manual.

[coolmazda5]

- Also just by looking at the pic you posted, the seat looks too upright. Ideal position is 45 degress for the backrest relative to the ground. The best way to do this is to tape together 3 to 4 pool noodle (about 10 to 12 inches long) and then install the seat on them.

Hope this helps.

Thanks! Yes indeed, it really helps. You are right, while testing several options I also noticed that same issue, it was really upright! (the seat manual highlights the angle needed as well). The seat has 2 positions, the one in the picture and the one on a 45 degree angle (or very close) so I have set it to 45 now. Anyway, it is work in progress. Wife has not needed the car until now :D. I'll try my best to get some new pics later on.