MT: MS3 vs. Subaru Impreza WRX

[RHAGEL]

Just got my new issue of Motor Trend (Nov. 06) and as expected Mazda handed Subaru a FWD vs. AWD Beat Down! Not to mention it costs $3k less for a similarly equipped car.

[tsunami]

nice... damn going to have to pick that up been waiting for a comparison test article...

[Renesis8]

as expected, the WRX is too heavy, and the MS3 has tons of power

[RHAGEL]

I think one of the worst features of the WRX is the vague steering feel and feedback.

[Hughes412]

Well if you can't see that the MS3 would beat the WRX you'd be blind. 260hp to 230, AWD drivetrain loss to FWD drivetrain loss the MS3 will have way more WHP and has even more torque. That just isn't a good match up. But then not many cars will be!!!! The MS3 is just a badass. To bad they didn't make it AWD or RWD!

[Renesis8]

RWD would be perfect, but the platform wont support it, i wouldnt want the MS3 to be AWD, then it'd be heavily compared to the STi and EVO, I dont think Mazda wants those extra attention yet, and I cant really picture this is the way Mazda would like to go (Turbocharged AWD rocket). Just keep making balanced RWD cars, the MS3 and MS6 is the answer to the market, when everyone complained Mazda didnt have a straight-line performer. Good job to Mazda for listening and giving us these nice cars in such a short time!

Now that they're finished with that task, I forsee they'll place the resource and focus on developing RWD cars and make further use of the Mazdaspeed performance brand.

I'd like to see a lightweight/cheap RWD car next, Kabura concept(MX-3, RX-3) and give us a rotary supercar(RX-7) in the future!

[seanw]

Just got my new issue of Motor Trend (Nov. 06) and as expected Mazda handed Subaru a FWD vs. AWD Beat Down! Not to mention it costs $3k less for a similarly equipped car.

Damn, just went on a treasure hunt for the new C&D and now I hafta start all over again looking for the new MT?!

[mountjonas]

with scans

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1099972

[ZoomVT]

Well if you can't see that the MS3 would beat the WRX you'd be blind. 260hp to 230, AWD drivetrain loss to FWD drivetrain loss the MS3 will have way more WHP and has even more torque. That just isn't a good match up. But then not many cars will be!!!! The MS3 is just a badass. To bad they didn't make it AWD or RWD!


lol try telling that to the nasioc guys trashing the ms3.
some of them are just so blinded by faith. Subarus are great cars but they wont compare the handling and the interior is miles away; they wont catch up for at least 2 production rotations i think.

[CTGrey02]

A lot of them seem to have thier heads on thier shoulders (the scooby boys that is). The SRT-4 boards Im sure are painful as hell to read in regards to this car and the soon to have comparisons with the Caliber's hopped up big brother. Big difference in maturity.

[mountjonas]

they wont catch up for at least 2 production rotations i think.

i don't know about the numbers on the next gen wrx, but the 08 should give the ms3 a run for the money.

[ZoomVT]

Yeah, actually i was referring to the interior quality.
I think the mazda interior is way ahead of any competitor in its class.

[gimpo2]

lol try telling that to the nasioc guys trashing the ms3.
some of them are just so blinded by faith. Subarus are great cars but they wont compare the handling and the interior is miles away; they wont catch up for at least 2 production rotations i think.

"OMG it doesn't have AWD!! @_@ it already sucks!!"

[mountjonas]

the nasioc crowd hates anything and everything that doesn't pertain to their specific cars. it's sad that most threads in the members gallery turn into cock measuring fests because someone doesn't know how to offer an opinion without sounding like a gigantic ass.

[gimpo2]

sounds kinda familiar

[tsunami]

with scans

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1099972


wow read that yesterday when it was 2 pages and thought that most of the nasioc guys were mature individuals... dear god that went down hill fast.. lol some people on there were very open minded but the fan boys were a bit crazy... as i am sure will happen to the ms3 it will have its far share of fan boys... omg my car is f4st3st!!! as there are/were with the msp crowd... you don't find as many as those chest thumper people in the regular (2.5rs, mzda3, p5) models... ???

[mountjonas]

wow read that yesterday when it was 2 pages and thought that most of the nasioc guys were mature individuals... dear god that went down hill fast.. lol some people on there were very open minded but the fan boys were a bit crazy... as i am sure will happen to the ms3 it will have its far share of fan boys... omg my car is f4st3st!!! as there are/were with the msp crowd... you don't find as many as those chest thumper people in the regular (2.5rs, mzda3, p5) models... ???

yeah. it seems like most threads these days over there turn sour pretty quickly. i admit it. the ms3 is better package stock for stock. hopefully the aftermarket will be there for it.

[tsunami]

looking at CPE...pretty much the only option for the speed6 right now...it looks like there will be at least some nice quality parts... and some one on nasioc said something about cob doing something with it?? not sure how to take it but it would be nice... the a/m for the reg 3 is still growing its just the damn ecu thats killing us i wish mazda corp would assist with chip tuners show them how to break in and tune with a hand held or something... its the one thing that focus/vw and the such have we don't.... juan at hiboost even has a s/c kit coming out soon...

[Protege52003]

just got my issue.....great article and the MS3 is such a nice ride!!!!!

[p5sundevil]

COBB Tuning is going to at least come out with their AccesPort for the MS3, it has already been announced on the COBB forums and linked here....they have a MS3 on order to test with and are planning on first releasing the AP tuned for the stock intake, if they feel the need after testing to creat an intake/AP/Exhaust package they will do so....

my thoughts are if the stock mazda ecu on the ms6 bumps th HP up about 15 the AP from COBB can do at least 20-25, plus a nice exhaust and your above evo pwr levels for under 1500 aftermarket.

and i love how the nasioc guys clame the ms3 handling to be because of the tires and wanted a retest with better tires on the wrx, if that be the case for fair comparison you change tires on the scoobie you have to on the MS# and it would still beat it. AWD is everything to them even if they dont realize its only better for launches(in some cases) and rally/offrd use....

[Kansei]

wow read that yesterday when it was 2 pages and thought that most of the nasioc guys were mature individuals... dear god that went down hill fast.. lol some people on there were very open minded but the fan boys were a bit crazy... as i am sure will happen to the ms3 it will have its far share of fan boys... omg my car is f4st3st!!! as there are/were with the msp crowd... you don't find as many as those chest thumper people in the regular (2.5rs, mzda3, p5) models... ???

Because of P5, normal 3, 2.5RS people bought cars that weren't marketed as being "the wild child", or "faster than a porsche boxter".. we bought economical cars that are pretty damn nice and bring smiles to our faces. I've always noticed this.. the MSP people in general are the least satisfied with their cars.. hence why they are always trying to sell their cars... to get the WRX they wish they'd have dropped the few extra Gs on before they even bothered with Mazda.

[Kansei]

omg omg on page 2 of that thread someone actually referred to our beloved FS-DE as being a "solid engine"!!!!!

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15397462&postcount=28

[gimpo2]

omg omg on page 2 of that thread someone actually referred to our beloved FS-DE as being a "solid engine"!!!!!

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15397462&postcount=28

yeah solid like my poo

[shark77]

COBB Tuning is going to at least come out with their AccesPort for the MS3, it has already been announced on the COBB forums and linked here....they have a MS3 on order to test with and are planning on first releasing the AP tuned for the stock intake, if they feel the need after testing to creat an intake/AP/Exhaust package they will do so....

my thoughts are if the stock mazda ecu on the ms6 bumps th HP up about 15 the AP from COBB can do at least 20-25, plus a nice exhaust and your above evo pwr levels for under 1500 aftermarket.

Doing a little arm chair dyno'ing...

From CP-E on the MS6
Down Pipe: ~29whp
Exhaust: ~25whp
CAI: ~11whp

So say combined you are probably looking at around ~45whp from those 3 bolt-ons. If you add some ecu tuning from Cobb for 15-20... So potentially we could be looking at 60-70whp from 4 relatively simple bolt-ons.

If the MS3 dyno's around 225whp were going to be close to 300 with those bolt-ons. I know it's just speculation, but hopefully this will be the case.

[CTGrey02]

Those numbers are so grossly exaggerated that I dont even think its worth commenting... but... my toy car has a v8 with a blower on it.. and a catback exhaust (2 pipes) on that only added about 5 HP.. I dyno ... (ya know.. on rollers) about twice a year, just to make sure everythings kosher. Not even a mid pipe or boost pipe added anywhere near those numbers and we're talking a much larger engine with less compression. I'd be amazed to see those numbers on a small 2.3 liter high compression FI motor, with just those mods.

[shark77]

Those numbers are so grossly exaggerated that I dont even think its worth commenting...

You can find dyno charts from the three mods I referenced on CP-E's website under the MS6. (The ecu is just a guess)

http://www.cp-e.com/scan/co=yes/fi=products/sf=category/se=speed6/op=eq.html?open=


but... my toy car has a v8 with a blower on it.. and a catback exhaust (2 pipes) on that only added about 5 HP.. I dyno ... (ya know.. on rollers) about twice a year, just to make sure everythings kosher. Not even a mid pipe or boost pipe added anywhere near those numbers and we're talking a much larger engine with less compression. I'd be amazed to see those numbers on a small 2.3 liter high compression FI motor, with just those mods.

Superchargers and turbos are completely different animals when it comes to the exhaust side of the equation.

Turbo efficiency is directly related to exhaust flow. The best situation for a turbo is no back pressure. Becuase this will decrease the heat and improve flow through the turbo increasing it's ability to turn higher RPMs.

Superchargers "themselves" do not lose efficiency because of exhaust flow. In essence, to improve a supercharger the way a turbo is improved by better exhaust flow, you would need to decrease its parasitic mechanical drag.

Exhaust flow to a turbo is like engine RPM to a supercharger. Where parasitic losses and boost capability increase with RPM in a supercharger, the same can be said with exhaust flow to a turbo.

So it is not amazing that exhaust upgrades yeild higher results in turbo applications. Where N/A and supercharged engines improve cylinder head flow with better exhausts, turbos improve not only better cylinder head flow, but also compressor performance.

Larger power gains in relation to exhaust for turbo engines are not uncommon in comparison to N/A or supercharged engines. Especially with higher boost engines.

[seanw]

Those numbers are so grossly exaggerated that I dont even think its worth commenting... but... my toy car has a v8 with a blower on it.. and a catback exhaust (2 pipes) on that only added about 5 HP.. I dyno ... (ya know.. on rollers) about twice a year, just to make sure everythings kosher. Not even a mid pipe or boost pipe added anywhere near those numbers and we're talking a much larger engine with less compression. I'd be amazed to see those numbers on a small 2.3 liter high compression FI motor, with just those mods.

CP-E is pretty reputable and has dynos, too, you know. Maybe they're cherry picking a little, but maybe your exhaust started out a lot less restrictive than the MS6's. The exhaust sound has not been referred to as being like a "psychotic vacuum cleaner" for nothing. But, assuming the numbers in the post are what CP-E published, I still gotta wonder if you really can just add 'em up like that. Some of the advantages gained by an individual mod may be not be cumulative. Not that I have any idea, so I'm always open to being corrected.

[shark77]

I still gotta wonder if you really can just add 'em up like that. Some of the advantages gained by an individual mod may be not be cumulative. Not that I have any idea, so I'm always open to being corrected.

I agree with you that you just don't add things up, because 29+25+11 = 65. So I just WAG'd a 30% decrease and came up with 45 for the CP-E parts. Just playing with numbers, but it will be interesting to see everything put together on one car.

[CTGrey02]

CP-E is pretty reputable and has dynos, too, you know. Maybe they're cherry picking a little, but maybe your exhaust started out a lot less restrictive than the MS6's. The exhaust sound has not been referred to as being like a "psychotic vacuum cleaner" for nothing. But, assuming the numbers in the post are what CP-E published, I still gotta wonder if you really can just add 'em up like that. Some of the advantages gained by an individual mod may be not be cumulative. Not that I have any idea, so I'm always open to being corrected.

Not for nothing, but I still dont think they'll see those gains from such small displacement by just opening up the exhaust and retuning a little. Your still talking roughly 75 wheel HP, and granted superchargers are not as effiencient (I've also done twin turbo installs on the same cars as well as helped with quite a few DSM's.) but I still cant see those numbers coming out. Time will tell I guess.

[seanw]

I agree with you that you just don't add things up, because 29+25+11 = 65. So I just WAG'd a 30% decrease and came up with 45 for the CP-E parts. Just playing with numbers, but it will be interesting to see everything put together on one car.

Right, when I said "add", I should have actually or even roughly added them up. Of course, Mazda, herself, says 30 hp out of just intake and exhaust mods. Assuming that's at the crank, WHP's probably 15% less, so 25-26. Downpipes are new, but there should be some people dynoing with all three pretty soon if they haven't already. As far as the ECU, that sounds reasonable since I think Mazda had an MS6 at a show in Japan putting out 300 at the crank largely based on ECU changes. Sounds like even the staged Caliber SRT-8 will have some competition in the insane hp for a FWD category.

[Micah]

lol try telling that to the nasioc guys trashing the ms3.
some of them are just so blinded by faith. Subarus are great cars but they wont compare the handling and the interior is miles away; they wont catch up for at least 2 production rotations i think.

Maybe so - but the Subaru AWD can handle more power - and the aftermarket tuning options are there. Cobb Stage I is only $645 and brings the car up to 260hp. Check the dyno here to see awhp:

http://cobbtuning.com/wrx/images%5Cae-stage1-dyno_2006.jpg

A 2006 Stage 2 (only needs addition of downpipe to the above, catback is optional - though recommended) puts out 285hp.

The MS3 has a very nice interior from the looks of it, I have the new motor trend next to me - it arrived in the mail a couple days ago. I'd still take the Subie, but I'm loyal because I've own one. So far as handling - the WRX is designed to have ground clearance and suspension travel. I took mine off road before I changed the suspension, and the car doesn't bottom out like you would expect it to. If you have the mag - check page 44 for the box about autocrossing. Both drivers would rather have the Subaru.

Out of the box - Mazda FTW. Reflash to stage 1, tires, rear antisway bar - things would change. Now people in NJ buy some MS3's already so I can see them on the road.

Interestingly both cars weigh 3140(curb weight).

[p5sundevil]

If the WRX can benefit that much from COBB stage 1 and 2 the MS3 will gain just as much if not more....

And the part about WRX's being better offrd, i mean common lets go compare apples and oranges....the WRX is a RALLY CAR...the MS3 is a TRACK CAR...not that hard to figure out that the wrx will bet better setup for offrd/rally use....

[Micah]

If the WRX can benefit that much from COBB stage 1 and 2 the MS3 will gain just as much if not more....

And the part about WRX's being better offrd, i mean common lets go compare apples and oranges....the WRX is a RALLY CAR...the MS3 is a TRACK CAR...not that hard to figure out that the wrx will bet better setup for offrd/rally use....

apples to apples???

ok, so what about the AWD vs. FWD you are basing this on in the first place. Also, don't be so sure the MS3 will benefit quite so much, they are limiting torque from the factory for a reason.

[jred321]

Not for nothing, but I still dont think they'll see those gains from such small displacement by just opening up the exhaust and retuning a little. Your still talking roughly 75 wheel HP, and granted superchargers are not as effiencient (I've also done twin turbo installs on the same cars as well as helped with quite a few DSM's.) but I still cant see those numbers coming out. Time will tell I guess.fwiw an evo 9 with tune, exhaust, intake, fuel pump and mbc usually gets between 330 and 350whp, or ~100 over stock. flash alone puts them close to 300whp, or ~50hp over stock. ones with just a tune run high 12s, exhaust, tune, fuel pump are low 12s. similar size engine, probably lower static compression actually but higher boost? def lower fuel pressure. if people can figure out how to tune the direct injection better they should actually have bigger gains

the big issue the ms3 will have, made even worse when you mod, is traction. snow and rain i imagine will be difficult to drive in


edit: some dyno #s of evo 9s, some don't have baselines so they're kinda useless but some do http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthread.php?t=177892

[Renesis8]

The MS3 will lose if you start modding it, its FWD vs AWD, FWD doesnt stand a chance when you have higher horsepower. There are pros/cons for both cars, I appreciate both the WRX and MS3.

What I am intersted to see is how much HP the 2.3L DISI can handle, I am hearing 500crank hp with stock internals on the ********** board, this person attended a Mazda informational class about the new 2.3L DISI engine. Can it really push 500hp stock? no one knows yet, but looking at the development and NA version of this engine, I think it could, we would have to wait and see.

It'll be useless to put that much power to the MS3, but there is still hope as we have the AWD Mazdaspeed 6. It'd be awesome if it has the potential of the Subaru and Mitsu motors.

[jred321]

What I am intersted to see is how much HP the 2.3L DISI can handle, I am hearing 500crank hp with stock internals on the ********** board, this person attended a Mazda informational class about the new 2.3L DISI engine. Can it really push 500hp stock? no one knows yet, but looking at the development and NA version of this engine, I think it could, we would have to wait and see.
what upgrades does the turbo engine have over the normal one? besides the obvious direct injection and turbo

[CTGrey02]

fwiw an evo 9 with tune, exhaust, intake, fuel pump and mbc usually gets between 330 and 350whp, or ~100 over stock. flash alone puts them close to 300whp, or ~50hp over stock. ones with just a tune run high 12s, exhaust, tune, fuel pump are low 12s. similar size engine, probably lower static compression actually but higher boost? def lower fuel pressure. if people can figure out how to tune the direct injection better they should actually have bigger gains

the big issue the ms3 will have, made even worse when you mod, is traction. snow and rain i imagine will be difficult to drive in


edit: some dyno #s of evo 9s, some don't have baselines so they're kinda useless but some do http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthread.php?t=177892

I understand that and I've tuned my own car with SCT Tuning software. We were talking basic bolt on's hitting 300 WHP... which I still think is ludicris. I wont be modding mine as theres just no point. I already have a 12 second car (by no means fast) and it took a lot more than intake and exhaust work to get that way, I'm not about to do that with a car I'm going to use as a beater. The EVO you mentioned also had a boost controller and a re-tune. Changing the fuel maps and timing on a boosted car makes a world of a difference, but simply adding on a CAI and turboback isnt going to find ya 75 whp. Not with out supporting mods for fuel and spark, and tuning. All of thats gonna cost a lot more time and money than most are willing to invest.

[Micah]

if people can figure out how to tune the direct injection better they should actually have bigger gains

Don't be so sure, for the size of the engine, it's already making quite a bit of power. I don't think the gains are in any direct proportion of percentage. What is the compression ratio on that engine? What about the limited torque in lower gears, can that be defeated - and if/when - can the tranny and associated driveline components take it?

To be real about it. How much boost can the stock engine and turbo handle - can the drivetrain keep up? That's what needs to be answered first. Trial and error is the only way this will happen. People will need to blow engines - that's the long and short of it. Also - Cobb is supposed to be working on the ECU. Engine Management needs to be addressed.

[jred321]

tuning is definitely necessary, i missed that we were talking bolt-ons without tuning. unless the ecu is really smart so it can account for the added air, which usually doesn't happen (and let's be honest, in a mazda that's not gonna happen cause their ecus are special). the first mod people do to evos (or should do) is to get a proper tune so i was just assuming that was part of the equation. tuning is why people on bone stock evo 9s with just a mail in tune ($200 or so) hit 300whp and run 12s. cai + turbo back won't get you 75whp, ever. but if people figure out the ecu and can get a proper, mail in style tune, 300whp won't be a problem at all, might not even need intake and exhaust

[jflo]

the Motor Trend comparison was done with the stock tires of both cars, the WRX's being all-season bridgestone re92s, and the mazdaspeed3's bridgestone potenza re050 summer tires, which are naturally a helluvalot stickier. i think the tests as far as handling would go would be pretty different if they used the same tires

[jred321]

Don't be so sure, for the size of the engine, it's already making quite a bit of power. I don't think the gains are in any direct proportion of percentage. What is the compression ratio on that engine? What about the limited torque in lower gears, can that be defeated - and if/when - can the tranny and associated driveline components take it?

To be real about it. How much boost can the stock engine and turbo handle - can the drivetrain keep up? That's what needs to be answered first. Trial and error is the only way this will happen. People will need to blow engines - that's the long and short of it. Also - Cobb is supposed to be working on the ECU. Engine Management needs to be addressed.good points. i'd imagine making any more power will need a proper intercooler too. direct injection is a definite advantage it has going for it though in the quest for more power, if it can be controlled

[CTGrey02]

the Motor Trend comparison was done with the stock tires of both cars, the WRX's being all-season bridgestone re92s, and the mazdaspeed3's bridgestone potenza re050 summer tires, which are naturally a helluvalot stickier. i think the tests as far as handling would go would be pretty different if they used the same tires

Yes, but stock is stock, lol. That said, with all these cars hitting the dealers in october I have a feeling a lot are going to be sold with an extra set of rims (which will fit nicely in the hatch) and some all season tires. Ironic.

jred... where are you from?

[jred321]

all seasons won't help, gonna need some nice winters :)

[CTGrey02]

all seasons won't help, gonna need some nice winters :)

I have an SUV too. lol I just need something for rain.

[Kansei]

all seasons won't help, gonna need some nice winters :)

yeah.. people are going to bitch mazda out for selling the Mazdaspeed3 and 6 in the northern parts of the U.S. and Canada with summer-only tires. 99% of people will absolutely not deal with having separate wheels/tires summer and winter.

Hyundai tried it with the Tiburon with Michelin Pilot Sports (really great tires, but crazy expensive) and people freaked out, so they slapped the tires that they put on the Sonata and XG350 onto the tib.. Michelin mxv4 or some crap like that all-seasons. Total trash for that car unless you drive like a granny.

[seanw]

....

Interestingly both cars weigh 3140(curb weight).

I wondered about that, too. Apparently a typo. They don't, the MS3 weighs 3153 and the WRX in TR trim weighs 3192. I noticed a lot of typos in last month's MT also.

[p5sundevil]

its apples to oranges when comparing offrd use to onrd yes, but not when comparing AWD to FWD on the same surface....because they both have their advantages and disadvantes on tarmac, whereas on dirt the FWD has many more disadvantages than AWD...so yes while it can be pretty similar when comparing AWD to FWD in some cases when you throw in the EXTRA factor of offrd use then its too much....the mazda wasnt designed to be used rally style like the wrx was plain and simple, whereas on the rd it shows how important finess(sp?) can be compared to grunt/brute force.

[shark77]

FWD drive advantages are pretty much just weight savings and less drivetrain loss. For me the daily driving benefits of FWD are better. I don't like to do +5000 RPM clutch slips/drops do take advantage of the AWD. I more or less want a car that will perform well from rolling speeds. The MS3 looks like it will fit that well. For reference, I am comming from an R32 into the MS3 if that says anything.

[p5sundevil]

it says your a wise man =)

If I was gonna even think of using my new car on our camping/fishing trips that would be one thing, but my buddy has a subaru legacy that we beat the shit out of offrd and it likes it....no need for another one of those when I have more fun on the tracks than off.

[CHICO2003]

I was surprised to see the acceleration #s...

The MS3 has a ton more hp and tq yet... everyone who defended mazdas's decision to go fwd says that it saves weight and creates less drivetrain loss.

According to MT, the cars weigh the same and, despite the mazda's potential advantage, it's actually slower.

[Micah]

WRX has AWD
also, the MS3 has torque limited in the first 2 gears (if I recall correctly - I think they said that in the article)

The WRX has a much stronger AWD system which biases power 50/50 at all times.

Ultimately, the WRX is the better car.

[CHICO2003]

so.... since both cars cost about the same (in the real world... wrxs can be had for around invoice which means their comparing stickers is like comparing... you know) so, again, since both cars are about the same price (when similarly equipped) and weigh the same... when the wrx has awd and is faster, what exactly is our motivation supposed to be for getting the ms3? nicer interior? fugly wheels? hatch versatility? (the wrx wagon can be had for well under invoice these days)

I'm just really surprised the ms3 is as slow as it is...

Mazda predicted mid 5 second 0-60 times... maybe I'm making more of this than I should but, from the start, all I heard was how much money and weight mazda would save by going fwd. this would translate into a lower cost, faster car. from what I see... there must be something lost in translation.

[tsunami]

and that something is tq steer.... with a boost limiter in the first two gears the 0-60 is going to be a bit less then the numbers would reveal..only thing i can say that would make it a bit better is a rolling 3rd gear pull it should pretty much beat or stay with most anything out there... (stock for stock)

[seanw]

so.... since both cars cost about the same (in the real world... wrxs can be had for around invoice which means their comparing stickers is like comparing... you know) so, again, since both cars are about the same price (when similarly equipped) and weigh the same... when the wrx has awd and is faster, what exactly is our motivation supposed to be for getting the ms3? nicer interior? fugly wheels? hatch versatility? (the wrx wagon can be had for well under invoice these days)

I'm just really surprised the ms3 is as slow as it is...

Mazda predicted mid 5 second 0-60 times... maybe I'm making more of this than I should but, from the start, all I heard was how much money and weight mazda would save by going fwd. this would translate into a lower cost, faster car. from what I see... there must be something lost in translation.

Personally, I never thought FWD would have a faster 0-60 time than AWD even with less power. But the .4 second time difference is due the extra shift needed on the 6-speed. The MS3 went 50-60 in 1.7 seconds compared to 1.3 seconds for the WRX. Also, you have to wonder whether the 1000 RPM "launch" was really the most effective considering that's just off idle.

From 30-100, the MS3 went faster than the WRX during every 10 mph interval that didn't include a gear change, due to it's power-to-weight advantage. Admittedly, it's not as much as I thought it would be. I guess that's a tribute to the effect of AWD. What it gives up in drivetrain loss, it must make up for in traction. But from 60-90, it the MS3 that walks away from the WRX with a .5 second lead. If you want to bring in the WRX wagon or even make the sedan an Ltd, it would probably be a win for the MS6 0-60 even with the extra shift. The MS3 has an almost 100 lb advantage over the wagon and the Ltd. sedan. The Ltd wagon's definitely gonna lose 0-60 due to its 140 lb. weight penalty.

But if WRX's really are selling at invoice, then I suppose it boils down to drive em both and buy the one you like better. In this review, MT liked the MS3 better. Another comparo in Australia vs. the R32 said the same thing. Much more fun to drive. Everyone is free to do their own comparo and make their own subjective determinations about fugliness, versatility, fun-to-drive, etc.

[RHAGEL]

Nobody mentioned the fact that even though a WRX at invoice is similar price, the resale value won't be there. I know the resale for the MSP is pretty good and the MS3 will be pretty damn good too. For me, resale is a HUGE factor. When you go through cars every three years you want to make sure there is some equity built on the car.

[nondual]

Yes, but stock is stock, lol. That said, with all these cars hitting the dealers in october I have a feeling a lot are going to be sold with an extra set of rims (which will fit nicely in the hatch) and some all season tires. Ironic.

jred... where are you from?
If I lived back in the UP, that's exactly what I'd be doing. That said, I'm in Eastern NC where it rarely snows and ice storms last a day or three at most. I can walk for a day or so if I need to.

[Micah]

Nobody mentioned the fact that even though a WRX at invoice is similar price, the resale value won't be there. I know the resale for the MSP is pretty good and the MS3 will be pretty damn good too. For me, resale is a HUGE factor. When you go through cars every three years you want to make sure there is some equity built on the car.

http://www.cars.com/go/alg/index.jsp?makename=Infiniti&modelname=G35&year=2006

37% after 5 years is actually a high residual value. WRX's do hold their value. See if you can find a reputable site that gives the breakdown on projected residual value for the Mazdaspeed3.

[ZoomVT]

in residual value i think that the wrx will probably win.
Although the regular mazda 3 has been doing outstanding holding its value; it would be a lot different for a "specialty" car like the ms3. However some of the value will be boosted due to the limited production, so it may make up some value but overall i think the wrx may hold more of its value than the ms3.

mz3 > wrx > MS3

[CTGrey02]

Cult status has a lot to do with resale value. Your bound to get more for a car seen as special from a enthusiast than you are from someone looking for a point a-b car. That said, it may take longer to find someone. By the time I'm ready to sell this thing Im sure main stream cars will be running 13's flat, so this will just be another beater.

[RHAGEL]

http://www.cars.com/go/alg/index.jsp?makename=Infiniti&modelname=G35&year=2006

37% after 5 years is actually a high residual value. WRX's do hold their value. See if you can find a reputable site that gives the breakdown on projected residual value for the Mazdaspeed3. I'm not saying that the WRX doesn't have a high resale, but I can pretty much guaranty that the MS3 will still hold out better than the WRX. Mainly because of its limited availability. The only way I can see the resale of the MS3 drop off is if the car takes a crap at the dealers, which I highly doubt. Just like if we are talking about the limited STI's that are out there right now, I know those will hold their value pretty well. I think it's going to come down to suppy and demand, there are TONS of WRX's for sale and that will drive the resales prices down regardless of Kelly Blue Book prices.

[jred321]

limited availability = limited parts = more expensive parts = more expensive maintenance = lower demand for a used car

limited availability isn't all it's cracked up to be unless you find the right buyer, which takes time if it ever happens. for a case study in how limited availability does not help resale value, check out the MSP. although after its initial drop it hasn't lost a ton, it's still not great

[Greysave]

Comparing the 2 cars is like comparing apples to oranges which was already said. But owning both an sti and my wife having a speed, I can tell you overall aftermarket support for mazda's is bad. The wrx is a 2.5l and can take a 20g turbo no problem, with the proper saftey mods, namely fuel injectors, exhaust, intercooler upgrade, and em, which will take the car to over 400whp. If you are intent on leaving the car stock then they are both good choices, but if you are like me and have the mod bug, then the wrx wins hands down. You can through a stock sti turbo(vf39) which can be had for 200 or so and be just over 300 to the wheels. There are just alot more options in the subbie world, alot more tuning experience over there. Thats just my .02 on it.