oil catch tank alarm!

[miataguy2cyprus]

ok i searched the google for hours, i search the topic with no results and i tried to "read" the chinese diagram. a few days ago it was my birthday and a friend of mine brought me an oil catch tank http://ravspeconline.com/ecommerce/images/sard-29283.jpg
unfortunately the instructions are in chinese (and i only speak greek and badly english). so, does anyone knows where the two hoses go? i guess the one goes on the place where i have a small filter now. the other one?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v347/nirvanouis/engine1.jpg

[Brian MP5T]

http://www.cadillacfaq.com/faq/answers/catchcan/index.html

From PCV TO Can...
From Can To Intake...

[miataguy2cyprus]

thanx brian! i'll propably put the filter that i had on the pcv!

[Brian MP5T]

thanx brian! i'll propably put the filter that i had on the pcv!

Cool...
(glare)

[MiaTurbo]

if you don't have boost, it's a waste of time and money.

Unless you like rice. Or you have a bad PCV valve..

[miataguy2cyprus]

thanks people, here's the result:http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v347/nirvanouis/oiltank.jpg

[MiaTurbo]

Negative Ghost Rider, here's how it should go. You need to double check which nipple on the tank is the intake side, and which is the PCV side:

[TheMAN]

uhh no
http://www.msprotege.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2205158&postcount=64
you got it right, don't listen to miaturbo

[miataguy2cyprus]

Negative Ghost Rider, here's how it should go. You need to double check which nipple on the tank is the intake side, and which is the PCV side:


no fucking way! by this way except that i'll be loosing pressure and the FPR wont work properly the oil catcher will blow the oil back (shocked)

[miataguy2cyprus]

uhh no
http://www.msprotege.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2205158&postcount=64
you got it right, don't listen to miaturbo

thanks, you are THEMAN!

[MiaTurbo]

Negative. The way it's set up now, it does absolutly nothing. Think about it, what did that little filter do? did you have oil coming from there? no. all you have now is a fancy crankcase filter.

The oil catch can is designed to go between the PCV valve and intake manifold. When the engine pulls vacuume it sucks in vapors through the PCV valve. A problem with this is that it will suck oil in as well. The catch can works as a seperator to seperate liquid oil, from vapors.

http://www.neonrick.com/oilair_howto.html

http://www.integra.orcon.net.nz/catchcan

But you don't have to listen to me. I'm only a [retired]ASE certified tech, and have only built 3 race cars. Not to mention dozens of performance engines. You also thanked Brian for telling you how to properly install it, exactly like I diagramed it originaly.

[MiaTurbo]

uhh no
http://www.msprotege.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2205158&postcount=64
you got it right, don't listen to miaturbodid you actually read that? It says nothing about an oil catch can. It does actually tell you how a Positive Crankcase Ventilation(PCV) Valve works. If you actually read what was posted, then it will make sense how a catch can works.

[MiaTurbo]

I was bored and whipped up this awesome diagram for you guys. Hope it helps shed light on the subject. The green air is the airflow created by the vacuume from the intake. Top diagram is proper install, the bottom one is your install.

Please also note that by posting how to install it, I do not support the install. On a fairly stock street car in proper working order, you do not need a catch can.

[JDM Sam]

did you actually read that? It says nothing about an oil catch can. It does actually tell you how a Positive Crankcase Ventilation(PCV) Valve works. If you actually read what was posted, then it will make sense how a catch can works.

He doesn't need to read it. He wrote the thing!
(rtfm)

[MiaTurbo]

He doesn't need to read it. He wrote the thing!
(rtfm)I know he posted it, but just because he posted it doesn't mean he read it. :rolleyes: He could have just copied and pasted it. If he knew how the PVC system works, he would know how to install the oil catch can.(rtfm)

[miataguy2cyprus]

now i get it! miaturbo the place where the small filter is should connect with intake pipe. right? my intake pipe has no place to connect it. should i change the whole pipe or is there something else i could do?

if i connect the red one on pcv as you say i cant connect the other side because i'll have to disconnect the fuel pressure regulator :S

[MiaTurbo]

put the filter back where it was on the valve cover originaly. Then connect the 2 lines like I diagramed for you in the original picture (http://www.msprotege.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=83193) I posted. The fuel pressure regulator is unaffected. Follow that little 3" of black hose from the PCV valve. Thats the line you need to use.

I'm glad you understand how it supose to go now :)

[TheMAN]

I know he posted it, but just because he posted it doesn't mean he read it. :rolleyes: He could have just copied and pasted it. If he knew how the PVC system works, he would know how to install the oil catch can.(rtfm)

you being on the forums for only 2 years assume a lot about me
go ahead and try to find everything (except the diagrams) in that post in a book or some website... I copied/pasted it... riiight

I wouldn't have wrote that shit if I didn't know how that shit worked... and if you actually fucking read that shit, you'd see that I mentioned about oil catch cans towards the end of it and explained where you should hook it up and WHY it should be there

I don't care if you're a retired ASE certified "tech" or not, the fact is, you don't know the relationship between engine blow-by and PCV valve orifice opening from vacuum/pressure

there is almost NO blow-by during cruising/high vacuum state on a GOOD engine... whatever there is will be so minor it SHOULD be sucked in through the PCV valve (which is at the most open state, which should be "obvious" to you mr retired "tech")... so minor that there will be NOTHING that gets caught in a catch can except for a nasty film of oil that'll turn to sludge eventually... and during hard driving, there will be so little vacuum that the PCV valve will be basically shut and thats when the most blow-by occurs... and where does it go? out the breather tube, which is WHERE an oil catch can should be hooked up

you'll see how inadequate YOUR way, the commonly misconcepted way of hooking up the shit is when a) the MSM is setup exactly like how I've mentioned it except its fancy OEM oil catch can has a drain back to the oil pan b) all the crazy magazine featured sports cars tuned by REPUTABLE tuning companies in japan have it hooked up the way I've mentioned IIRC c) the special Mazdaspeed oil catch can sold in limited numbers (as part of their race car "parts kit") for the N1 race Demio *instructs* the installer to hook it up the way I've mentioned

so since its clear you didn't read what I wrote, not thinking, and thinking too mighty of yourself, you DON'T know what you're talking about and you're giving bullshit advice

like I said, I don't care if you're certified or not... I've seen enough "certified" people in my time that don't know their heads from their asses and a "kid" who doesn't do whatever shit it is (computers, mechanical shit, etc) for a living can figure it out better.... this is why I'm *NOT* going to even flaunt MY own certifications in auto repair because that's just unnecessary egotism bullshit... if I know the processes of shit, I'll explain it, let people learn, and stop the spread of bullshit... but if I don't know anything, I'll stfu and NOT talk out of my ass


the reason why everyone else and I have been ignoring this thread for the past 2 days was because its a waste of OUR time, because miataguy2cyprus got the help he needed, but you haven't been giving up in spitting out your bullshit

so I'm only replying this one last time in this thread because miataguy2cyprus doesn't need to be heading off the wrong turn on the road all because of your insistent needless, baseless crap

this thread is DONE, so SOMEONE FFS lock this sorry thread

[MiaTurbo]

Your post is weaksauce. I've seen enough "kids" in my time that don't know their heads from their butt and destroy their engine, brakes, car, computer, house, whatever. And a "professional" who does do it for a living do it better. And yes, if you want to discuss it, your qualifications are important.

If that is the actual way to install it, fine I'll step aside and admit my error, but you haven't shown anything. Every link on the web I've seen shows it installed the way I said too. Please show us where all these 'reputable' Japanese builders install it. A link, picture, something. maybe the manufacturers have something on their site we can't see, But you can? I'm not taking your word for it just because you are 'TheMAN'

Your repetitive use of curse words is a nice touch too..

[Kooldino]

Theman - Chill out. If you're going to flame, you're going to pay consequences.

FWIW, I have mine hooked up how MIATurbo mentioned, and I get about a cup of oil a week in the catch can that way.

[MiaTurbo]

FWIW, I discussed this on another mailing list full of engine builders, racers, and general car nuts in the Miata community. The general concensious is that if there is excessive blow by, ie:worn piston rings, or high boost on an unbuilt motor, then you could use it the way TheMAN describes. But I need to stress that that's a bandaid fix for other problems. The original purpose of the can is exactly how i described.

[TheMAN]

Your post is weaksauce. I've seen enough "kids" in my time that don't know their heads from their butt and destroy their engine, brakes, car, computer, house, whatever. And a "professional" who does do it for a living do it better. And yes, if you want to discuss it, your qualifications are important.

If that is the actual way to install it, fine I'll step aside and admit my error, but you haven't shown anything. Every link on the web I've seen shows it installed the way I said too. Please show us where all these 'reputable' Japanese builders install it. A link, picture, something. maybe the manufacturers have something on their site we can't see, But you can? I'm not taking your word for it just because you are 'TheMAN'

Your repetitive use of curse words is a nice touch too..

ok, so the engineers and I are wrong :rolleyes:
http://www.roadraceengineering.com/instructions/greddycatchcan.htm
http://www.bozz.co.jp/JP/parts/engine/oilcatchtank/evo_5.html

this thread needs to be locked because everything that needed to be said has been said, and everyone is talking in circles... but apparently, the wise people with that ability don't think so, just like every other flamefest on this board they spiral out of control until it gets locked

so to the reader, read BOTH sides of what's been said here, then THINK of what's been said to form your own informed opinion after you consider the physics involved in the system, and of course using common sense... once you've done that, you'll see which method *works*... god help you if you can't sit down and think this through

so how about posting supporting data to back up *your* claims mr certified retired mechanic which I'm saying is common misconception hence why there's more pages showing your setup method? it doesn't take someone smart to see that I've explainations and supporting data compared to you.... so how about it? I'd love to see how wrong mazda engineers, bozz speed (as well as other major big name tuners in Japan) engineers, and I are

[MiaTurbo]

I guess KoolDino is just imagining the oil caught in his can...

Like I said in my previous post, the way you say to mount it (and Mazda) is a bandaid fix for excessive blow by, and I acknowledged it. Since Cypress's car is N/A, he will never get oil in his can.. The way Cypress has it mounted on his car is incorrect.

Thank you for posting the diagram of the MSM. (I don't have other language packs installed on this computer so I can't read the BOZZ site, and the picture isn't clear...)

BTW. You really need to check the 'I am God and what i say is right' attitude at the door.

[evilmonkeyMSP]

Fadi FTW! <3

[TheMAN]

I guess KoolDino is just imagining the oil caught in his can...

Like I said in my previous post, the way you say to mount it (and Mazda) is a bandaid fix for excessive blow by, and I acknowledged it. Since Cypress's car is N/A, he will never get oil in his can.. The way Cypress has it mounted on his car is incorrect.

Thank you for posting the diagram of the MSM. (I don't have other language packs installed on this computer so I can't read the BOZZ site, and the picture isn't clear...)

BTW. You really need to check the 'I am God and what i say is right' attitude at the door.

I don't know about you, but an oil catch can is meant as insurance in case you DO get crazy blow-by, *not* a "bandaid fix", and not a "we must catch everything and keep everything from going into the engine because it's urine"... if it's spraying out all the time like your garden hose, then the motor has to be fixed... plus you shouldn't even expect an ounce of anything in an oil catch can to begin with (it should just be a mist that will hardly get caught which is basically like trying to catch and measure rain in a desert)!... burning that mist is insignificant to engine performance! by your "bandaid" logic, if mazda put it on the MSM, then we can assume there's something wrong with the motors to begin with and they put that on there as a "cheap bandaid fix"

[got wake?]

http://www.mn12.org/images/misc/comicbookguy-worst-thread-ever.jpg

[Rac3rX]

http://img286.imageshack.us/img286/5181/comicbookguyworstthreadever0wx.jpg

Would the Set up & use on a Turbo engine differ from that of a N/A engine?

[Ryoga28]

I noticed that the majority of the Wrx crowd are using two catch cans.
One for the valve cover to intake and the other from the pcv to intake manifold.

I have a similar setup as the one stated above and I catch about a tablespoon of oil from the pcv to intake manifold setup and no oil from the valve cover to intake setup.

[Rac3rX]

Q: Why is a catch can used?

A: To catch those gasses that can create carbon and oil sludge build-up in your intake system.

You guys need to read this

http://www.roadraceengineering.com/instructions/catchcaninstructions.htm

Yes they do explaine That the way TheMan explained it, is how it should be on a BOOSTED car, also giving the benifits of closing off the PCV all together.


"An option for cars that never see use on the streets is to disable the PCV valve. Under normal operation the PCV valve allows crankcase air to be drawn into the intake manifold when you have vacuum in the manifold. Once you make boost pressure, the PCV valve closes and the only ventilation the crankcase gets is thru the small hose that was running to the turbo inlet.

By eliminating the PCV valve you can get twice the crankcase ventilation while under boost."

However with No-Boost....... Like the engine in question.

It would make sence to have it tapped into the breather line between the intake & PCV (Positive Crankcase Ventilation) to allow it to breath without injesting the oil vapors. This would in the end catch those gasses that can create carbon and oil sludge build-up in your intake system, especially since the engine will not see boost, and that being the use of a oil catch can. However, tapped into the Crankcase, it would still catch the blow-by gasses, I just would assume not as much due to the vacume.

On another note tapped into the PCV wont help the throttle body where as tapped into the crankcase will, but with more vapors still going through the intake manifold.

The Prob with the catch can tapped into the PCV on a boosted car, is once you make boost the PCV valve closes and the only ventilation is through the crank case, making the crank case the place you want your catch can on a boosted car, preferably with the PCV valve closed off altogether (Not recomended for street use) Or a second catch tank tapped into the PCV.

Both ways catch oil and work, one just wont work as well on a boosted car.

Final thought.

On a Boosted Car, if you are to have 1 catch can, tap it to the crank case, as with only one catch can the PCV < Crank Case. It will still work tapped into the PCV but not as good as it will tapped into the crank case (It would be useless during boost). Boosted cars will also benifit from a second one tapped to the PCV or the PCV closed altogether.

On a N/A Car you can go eithor way, however the PCV tap will be more effective, as tapped to the crank case it will only help the throttle body, nothing else as the PCV will still have vapors going through the intake manifold. Yes if tapped to the PCV the crank case will still put out vapors going through the throttle body and then through the intake manifold, but ALOT less.

My 2 Cents

Soo miataguy2cyprus untill your car is boosted, I would sugest to change the set up to how MiaTurbo has explained. If ever you boost, switch it over to how TheMan has it, or get a 2nd one for the crank case at that time.

Keeping it where it is, wont hurt at all, and you will still catch oil, but it will be more benificial if you change it, untill your boosted.

[miataguy2cyprus]

first of all thanx miaturbo and theman. i guess rac3rX is the most right :). you both have right, so for now i changed it to the way miaturbo said. the only thing left is to put a ring there where the red connects to the green pipe.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v347/nirvanouis/oiltank2.jpg

thanx again people

[Rac3rX]

first of all thanx miaturbo and theman. i guess rac3rX is the most right :). you both have right, so for now i changed it to the way miaturbo said. the only thing left is to put a ring there where the red connects to the green pipe.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v347/nirvanouis/oiltank2.jpg

thanx again people

NP, glad to help.

It looks good, & you can always put some hose covers over the hoses to make them color matched if ever you want to.

[xbbmazda]

looks awesome!

[Alejo_NIN]

yes, awaken from the death...just my 2 cents
the first time i installed the catch can i didn't know how....tried to make sense of it myself and came up with exactly the way miataguy2cyprus has it installed. it just made more sense.
I understand TheMan's way too, and the "japanse's" way too.

i belive that the MSP PVC valce could had been improved, mazda FAILED at this...but one only wonders "WHY" if they had made BOOSTED cars before and there was A BETTER PVC already made that fitted our cars?
why did mazda chose not to re-use a BETTER PCV valve and reuse the anemic one from the protege?.....i think the day we figure out why mazda does the things they do, we'll have a very horrific death because we quetsioned GOD...lol

anyways, just wanted to see who else had done what miataguy2cyprus said and who actually has it hooked up as TheMAN said.

i believe we can benefit from 2 catch cans.

i do have one more question....
if in addition to the PCV valve, we also use a ONE WAY CHECK VALVE like the one used in the brake booster line, would this help the functionality of the PCV system?

hmmm