Effects of Ethanol in Gasoline?

[MASTERNC]

As most of you know they are now putting up to 10% ethanol in gasoline in the Northeast. Besides making gas outrageously expensive, I have heard that the ethanol can be corrosive to an engine. Is this true?

I expect that my gas mileage will drop (which has been the case with Sunoco's ethanol mix that has been used for a few years) but is the government forcing us to shorten the lives of our engines?

It also probably creates a huge mess if you get any water in your gas tank since ethanol supposedly bonds with water.

[keleko]

same as "watering it down"

i.e., takes more of it to get the same effect

less energy per unit = more units to do the same work = your gas mileage is shitty now? HA you ain't seen nuttin' yet

[gdkenoyer]

I have heard that the ethanol can be corrosive to an engine. Is this true?
It's corrosive to the rubber parts in the fuel system. If you put the keywords "ethanol gas rubber" into a search engine (google) you'll get a boatload of hits including What impact will ethanol have on equipment? (http://www.ethanolmt.org/switch.html)

[Mazda3Rookie]

It's corrosive to the rubber parts in the fuel system. If you put the keywords "ethanol gas rubber" into a search engine (google) you'll get a boatload of hits including What impact will ethanol have on equipment? (http://www.ethanolmt.org/switch.html)

If I understood it correctly, the article you refer to says that a 10% concentration of ethanol (as it is going to be in the "new" gas) shouldn't pose any problem corrosion-wise.

It seems to me that the lower fuel economy and the bonding of ethanol with water could be more of an issue that the potential for corrosion.

[gdkenoyer]

It seems to me that the lower fuel economy and the bonding of ethanol with water could be more of an issue that the potential for corrosion.
That may be true at the 10% level, but E85 is starting to grow...85% ethanol might be a bit harsh on some systems.

[goldstar]

Mazda states that gasohol (90% gasoline and 10% ethanol) is completely safe for our cars as they have been designed to work with this mix. Neither corrosion nor water absorbtion will be a problem with this ratio. In fact, ethanol is one of the better octane boosters for gasoline as it has a naturally higher octane rating than gasoline.

[Mazda3Rookie]

That may be true at the 10% level, but E85 is starting to grow...85% ethanol might be a bit harsh on some systems.

Yes, I agree on that, but for us (Mazda3 owners), it is a non issue as a "regular" engine can't take E85 in any case. It has to be designed to run on it. If the 90/10 mix is safe we don't have to worry about the rest.

[qvverty187]

wait.... so ethanol in gas = potential long term damage + more money - gas miles???

wtf is that shit...

[Roywhitep5]

bushenomics

[flat_black]

MBTE is horrible, too. =P It increases some forms of pollution, creates a lot of water contamination, and costs over 10 times as much as ethanol to produce. The ethanol switch is just an excuse to bump up prices. Places like BP/Arco already used 10 percent ethanol. One thing this does is makes the use of acetone in gas totally useless. Basically, one negates the other. You should see no long term damage to anything in excess of what MBTE was already causing.

[BrianG]

Personally, I don't mind ethanol as long as it won't cause a shortened lifespan. The car feels peppier with it than normal gas. Plus, being in Iowa, Ethanol based gas is actually the cheapest fuel (since it's made from corn).

BTW: The following is a decent source of information for ethanol: http://www.ethanol.org/

[MaxRay]

bushenomics

Bush has nothing to do with how ethenol works (and I'm not even a Bush supporter...)

[Rotus8]

Personally, I don't mind ethanol as long as it won't cause a shortened lifespan. The car feels peppier with it than normal gas. Plus, being in Iowa, Ethanol based gas is actually the cheapest fuel (since it's made from corn).

BTW: The following is a decent source of information for ethanol: http://www.ethanol.org/ If you are honest and include all the energy costs of making ethanol (tractor fuel for plowing, making and delivering fertilizer, pumping water, harvester, trucking, refining costs, etc.) you will find ethanol is more expensive than gasolene.

Plus it turns out the use of corn in ethanol fuel has raised the price of corn making the cost of beef and pork higher.

Flame on!!

[gsrtype1]

As most of you know they are now putting up to 10% ethanol in gasoline in the Northeast. Besides making gas outrageously expensive, I have heard that the ethanol can be corrosive to an engine. Is this true?

I expect that my gas mileage will drop (which has been the case with Sunoco's ethanol mix that has been used for a few years) but is the government forcing us to shorten the lives of our engines?

It also probably creates a huge mess if you get any water in your gas tank since ethanol supposedly bonds with water.

[voiceKoil]

If you are honest and include all the energy costs of making ethanol (tractor fuel for plowing, making and delivering fertilizer, pumping water, harvester, trucking, refining costs, etc.) you will find ethanol is more expensive than gasolene.

Plus it turns out the use of corn in ethanol fuel has raised the price of corn making the cost of beef and pork higher.

Flame on!!


Totally man, with gas its just refining, and then transporting. Ive talked to some people about that and they think Im crazy, in reality though it makes perfect sense, farmers are dropping other crops to produce corn, becuase its easier to grow and they will get a higher wage doing it, so wheat is goin to be more "rare" as with other crops, and then feed for animals will cost more, because it will be competing with the production of ethonal, causing basically anything to do with food to go up in price. Anyone notice a raise in grocery prices? I know I have, its nuts. One thing is though, dont some farmers get paid to throw out crops to keep up an even trade value, or farmers wage? If so where does that stuff go? Its all about money, we could have gas up the a$$ if we wanted, and cars that get double the mpg, but we dont becuase noone would make their money. (ghey) Anyone heard about the project in Canada that will soon make them have enough oil to be a Major supplier of oil to the world. Their refining it out of the soil, and some how its even cheaper to do, Im not too sure on the whole topic, but sounded interesting....

[Mike V]

Plus, being in Iowa, Ethanol based gas is actually the cheapest fuel (since it's made from corn).

I have run E85 in my Nissan Titan. It is cheaper at the pump by 20% (central MO) but my mpg is down 25% on average. In most areas, it's actually more expensive to run E85.

[dread]

E85 is a scam to make corn farmers and ethonal producers rich, it doesn't improve emissions and costs more money. Just another way for the bush administation to screw us.

[FRUCTOSE]

The only way for the price to go down is for more demand and at first the ethenol price will be high untill more demand is created. The ethenol has a lot of room to grow as long as the demand is there. I'm happy it's at least comparable in price already. Look at the price of other alternative fuels. Plus better types of ethenol are getting worked on. The whole reason for the 10% in our gas now is to create the demand.

[Rotus8]

The only way for the price to go down is for more demand and at first the ethenol price will be high untill more demand is created. The ethenol has a lot of room to grow as long as the demand is there. I'm happy it's at least comparable in price already. Look at the price of other alternative fuels. Plus better types of ethenol are getting worked on. The whole reason for the 10% in our gas now is to create the demand.
Actually, the COST of ethanol is way higher than gasolene, if you include the true production cost. It is comparable in price because it is heavily subsidised by the government. More demand will not make these costs go down significantly because most of the cost is energy input, way more than the energy you get out as a fuel. The reason for the 10% in our gas now is that it is actually a pretty good octane booster and not nearly as nasty a chemical as the alternatives.

[FRUCTOSE]

Actually, the COST of ethanol is way higher than gasolene, if you include the true production cost. It is comparable in price because it is heavily subsidised by the government. More demand will not make these costs go down significantly because most of the cost is energy input, way more than the energy you get out as a fuel. The reason for the 10% in our gas now is that it is actually a pretty good octane booster and not nearly as nasty a chemical as the alternatives.


I was mainly trying to say that the price will go down some through demand alone but won't untill more cost effective ways of production are produced. If they can't improve on it then it will most likely fail. The octane boost and chemical makeup are other reasons too but the demand is needed for it to actually work in our economy. It's like hydrogen. They can't just push it on us with the prices the way they are now or it WILL fail! Any alternative fuel will have to be weened in by demand. Plus the demand will push for more effective ways of creating ethanol. And yes the government is doing a good job of creating demand because they see a future for it.



The reason for the 10% in our gas now is that it is actually a pretty good octane booster and not nearly as nasty a chemical as the alternatives.Ya hope it's better then lead (evil)

[Rotus8]

It's like hydrogen.

Ya hope it's better then lead (evil)
And don't get me started on hydrogen... (pissed)(sssh)

[justa4banger]

Ethanol isn't bad gas and the 10% they are adding (and have done so for years) will not affect your car.

It is true that ethanol doesn't have the energy of gasoline, BUt the octane rating is way higher. Few people on another board(turboford) are running ethanol and making more power with it over gas. On the flip side they are running more boost (octane is higher) and they have to Damn near doble the size of injectors to get the proper a/f. It requires quite a bit more ethanol to get the a/f correct.

As for rubber parts well unless your car is 20+ years old you'll be fine. Newer cars are designed with ethanol in the back of their minds ,so they use other rubber compliant material in the event of ethanol being used.

I have considered switching the SVO over to ethanol but there's only one station near me at the momment and well i'll have to go to 95lbs injectors + to get enough flow for my hp goal.

[justa4banger]

Oh N/A cars that run on ethanol do suffer since theres no way to take advantage of the higher octane rating. S/C your titan and then run it on ethanol. report back how you like it . :D

[FRUCTOSE]

And don't get me started on hydrogen... (pissed)(sssh)
(lol2)
At first it sounded great but doesn't seem doable

[dread]

You guys are fooled by the government if you think ethonal is a viable fuel option. It costs just as much energy to produce as you get out of it. And when you consider how much your mileage goes down you are paying over $4.00 a gallon. Prices will go up when demand goes up, because corn will cost more. Not sure why you think prices would go down with demand, that does not make any sense.

[justa4banger]

Hey once my design is done and the patent comes back i'll let you know about my new engine that runs on AIR alone. The you won't have to buy shit anymore ........................ :D




Stay tuned................

[SuperStretch18]

You guys are fooled by the government if you think ethonal is a viable fuel option. It costs just as much energy to produce as you get out of it. And when you consider how much your mileage goes down you are paying over $4.00 a gallon. Prices will go up when demand goes up, because corn will cost more. Not sure why you think prices would go down with demand, that does not make any sense.
Sure, let's just continue using petroleum until it is all gone and then we can (or our kids can) figure out what to do next. That is the exact arguement that OPEC and countries like Argentina that rely on oil are making. Fooled by government or fooled by oil companies, which is better? Time will tell...

Ethanol (and all alternative fuels) are still in their infancy. Yes, at the moment, the switch does not make financial sense, but that does not mean that we should just give up on it. Right now, ethanol is being produced by mom-n-pop farmers in the midwest. Once big companies step in with technology, genetic engineering, distribution channels, etc., there are economies of scale that come into play. Not to mention that once the energy used in producing/transporting ethanol comes from ethanol itself, there is a huge potential for prices to drop.

This is all on top of having a domestic fuel option that keeps us out of the middle east (and Canada)!