torque steer

[pasadena_commut]

A couple of weeks ago I had the tires rotated and the (4 wheel) alignment done. Now I'm noticing that it tends to pull to the right when the accelerator is pressed, kind of a torque steer, but it seems to be all or nothing and not proportional to the throttle position. The car has a stock engine and auto transmission.

Maybe I'm just looking for problems following the alignment but I never noticed this before.

On a flat surface with no gas it tracks nearly straight (maybe a slight pull to the right but no car goes absolutely straight) and it brakes straight. But put down the accelerator even a little and it starts to pull to the right, not really hard, but a noticeable amount. This is most noticeable coasting (no gas) on a flat surface, not holding the steering wheel: give it gas and the steering wheel jumps 5-10 degrees right, release the gas and the steering wheel jumps back to the original position. The car always tended to turn strongly downhill, so this effect is masked a bit in normal driving which tends to be on the right downward slope of the street.

The only similar thread that turned up was:

http://www.msprotege.com/forum/showthread.php?t=91252&highlight=torque+steer

where similar symptoms were caised by a loose control arm.

Does an alignment require loosening up the control arms? (In which case I'd bet $$$ they didn't retighten one or both of them.)

Or are all P5s like this and I just never noticed it before? I've only had the car 5 months and it's the only P5 I ever drove, so I don't know from personal experience.

Thanks

[pasadena_commut]

Does an alignment require loosening up the control arms?

Nomenclature question.

The P5 manual on line does not use the term "control arm". There is however a "stabilizer control link" (02-13-1). Is that what folks here are calling the "control arm" or is the control arm some other part of the suspension?

There have been a bunch of threads about bending control arms, and the stabilizer control link sure looks like it would be easy to bend, since it's the skinniest piece of metal in the front suspension.

[aMaff]

I think they're the same. That being said, if the arm was bent, I'm fairly certain you would feel it pull constantly. Being a front drive car w/ an Open diff, we do get a good deal of torque steer...

[Revs]

Mine does the same thing. When on the gas somewhat hard it pulls left or right. I believe this is due to the lack of an LSD.

[P-Funk!]

Nah - i would be suspecting the CV joints m'self...

Get it inspected & describe the symptoms only - do not say "Torque steer'.

[pasadena_commut]

I think they're the same. That being said, if the arm was bent, I'm fairly certain you would feel it pull constantly. Being a front drive car w/ an Open diff, we do get a good deal of torque steer...

I was wondering if the alignment shop might have loosened the "control arm" in some way, similar to the thread from the first post. So not bent, but maybe not firmly installed either.

You lost me with the open differential sentence. As I understand it open differentials provide the same torque to both wheels - how does that lead to torque steer if the wheels are facing straight and the alignment is ok? Now if the differential is failing somehow, so that it consistently puts more torque out the left side, then yes, that would be consistent with what I'm seeing.

Perhaps conventional torque steer isn't what I'm seeing exactly since the pull to the right (which isn't all that dramatic in any case) kicks in at about the same level with a little and a lot of throttle. It's sort of an all or nothing phenomenon.

[peepsalot]

I think they're the same. That being said, if the arm was bent, I'm fairly certain you would feel it pull constantly. Being a front drive car w/ an Open diff, we do get a good deal of torque steer...
I once slammed my passenger's side front wheel into a curb hard as hell. Bent the control arm all out of shape. All it did was effectively change the caster. Strangely it made no noticable difference in handling that I could tell. I never even realized it was bent until a mazda tech pointed out how my wheel was sitting way towards the back fo the wheel well. So I replaced it, had it realigned and the car still drives fine.

[Moeed]

I got the same thing, remember negative camber will pull to a certian degree on direction due to the slants of how roads are made.

[Mick]

hmmm, this is very interesting. I myself have started to notice some pull to the right constantly. It started like 3 months ago and i havent gotten around to having it checked out. When i send it in to the alignment shop, should i tell the tech anything in specific to look for? Like should i tell him to take a look at the control arms for me?

[Black_Protege_5]

Mine does it all the time. If I don't hold on to the steering wheel and hit the gas, the car steers to the right. I don't think it's a problem (well atleast the dealer says so).

[urbanbiker]

hey,


if the problem happened right after the rotation try checkin your air pressure then rotate the front tires side to side. Sounds like a simple fix and sometimes thats all it takes. I've been doin tires for 5 years now, its what i know. If the problem is still there take it back to the shop that aligned it and tell them whats happening. They should correct it for you at no charge. Canadian roads have a crown in them so on a car that is aligned 100% equal on both sides wil pull to the right, you have to stagger caster or camber on one of the wheels to correct for that

matt

[i12drivemyMP5]

Same here...auto, fresh 4 wheel alignment & drifts slightly to the right (not enough to be a pull) fresh tires, same air pressure, been rotated with same action, no curbs-nothing bent. With as many that seem to do this I'm going with "just the nature of the car" & not sweating it. Had the alignment rechecked since had 6 month warranty on it & the readings were spot on. No uneven tire wear at all. Still have to consciously have to ignore it.

[pasadena_commut]

Mine does it all the time. If I don't hold on to the steering wheel and hit the gas, the car steers to the right.

Does it do it with just a little gas, or do you have to mash the accelerator to see this? With mine it seems to be sort of an all or nothing effect that kicks in with even just a little gas.

There's a road near my house that slopes to the left. (No, I'm not driving on the wrong side of the street!) On this section if I'm coasting (foot off the gas, in Drive) it's necessary to steer right to go straight. That is, the car turns downhill, as it should, to the left. On that section if I step (gently) on the gas it still pulls to the right. Probably by coincidence the two effects cancel out almost exactly, so that when the car is given gas it goes straight as an arrow down that section of road.

So the "pull to the right with gas" effect isn't just amplifying the preexisting tendency of the car to follow the slope of the road. It pulls to the right when the accelerator is pressed whether the road is sloped right, left, or is flat.

Note, tire pressures are fine and the L/R side wheels are all still on the correct side of the car. These are directional tires, so I can tell from the arrows on them which side of the car each tire should be on.

[Shoey]

I've had this exact same problem since getting my car a year ago. I had it aligned and realigned, rotated, etc with no improvement. Releasing some air from the left tire did help things out, but there is still that on/off effect.

However, what I did find is that if I temporarily switch the two front tires around (which makes them roll the wrong way as they are directional) the problem is reversed, and the car now wants to steer left. So my only conclusion is that it has to be the tires.

Since then I haven't given it much thought, but lately I've been looking into replacing the tires (its a big price to pay for a small fix, though, assuming that the new tires won't have the same problem).

To those that do have this problem, can you post what tires you are using, or whether changing tires since then solved this problem? Thanks!

I, for one, am using BFGoodrich Traction T/A's (205/50/R16).

[pasadena_commut]

However, what I did find is that if I temporarily switch the two front tires around (which makes them roll the wrong way as they are directional) the problem is reversed.

I, for one, am using BFGoodrich Traction T/A's (205/50/R16).

I'll have to try swapping mine and see if the direction swaps. It wouldn't be the first time I've had tires cause a car to pull but in all previous cases the pull was speed dependent, not torque dependent.

My car has Nankang EX500 195/50 R16 93V tires - the same ones that were on it when I bought the car. These too are directional tires. This is a pretty rare tire for the US, it seems to be more common in Europe. I once saw it described as "Taiwan's finest tyre".

[Shoey]

"I'll have to try swapping mine and see if the
My car has Nankang EX500 195/50 R16 93V tires - the same ones that were on it when I bought the car."

Hm... odd that you haven't had this problem before. It may be something else in your case. (scratch) I am interested in finding out what your results are, but only if you have the time. Thanks.

[Tengo]

i have the same problem, the mazda service rode with me after i took it back i took it 4 an aliggnment, says that front wheel drive car are supposed to swerve to the right, on it drives with the road he says, if the road is flat then it will drive srtight, if not then it will go with the way of the road.

[uiuc240]

You lost me with the open differential sentence. As I understand it open differentials provide the same torque to both wheels - how does that lead to torque steer if the wheels are facing straight and the alignment is ok? Now if the differential is failing somehow, so that it consistently puts more torque out the left side, then yes, that would be consistent with what I'm seeing.

Perhaps conventional torque steer isn't what I'm seeing exactly since the pull to the right (which isn't all that dramatic in any case) kicks in at about the same level with a little and a lot of throttle. It's sort of an all or nothing phenomenon.

Torque steer is common in *all* FWD vehicles with unequal length drive axles. Because of this difference in length, the rotational force acts slightly differently on each wheel. With an open diff, the force is sent to the wheel having the least amount of resistance, thereby causing torque steer. Some manufacturers use an extension on the side opposite the tranny, which effectively allows both axles to be the same size. This minimizes the effect quite a bit. Audi (and others) have added stabilizer links to create an anti-torque-steer effect that works quite well. For whatever reason, P5s are really touchy about this, so I'd suspect unequal length axles.

Also, an LSD will combat this because when it senses one wheel spinning slightly faster than the other, it will lock and cause them both to spin at the same speed.

Eric

P.S. This is a "layman's" definition...if you want a better, more technical definition, you should search the intarw3b.

[pasadena_commut]

... the mazda service ... says that front wheel drive car are supposed to swerve to the right, on it drives with the road he says, if the road is flat then it will drive srtight

This isn't the same effect, it turns to the right when gas is applied on any road. In fact I can drive it straight down a road that slopes to the left without touching the steerring wheel by just varying the throttle. If I put it in neutral then what the service guy said holds: straight on flat, turns to the left on sloped to the left, and turns to the right on sloped to the right.

It feels like the tires have taken a "set" (you'll know what I mean if you've
ever had this happen) but ONLY when gas is applied.


For whatever reason, P5s are really touchy about this, so I'd suspect unequal length axles.

You lost me there. Are you saying my P5's axles or more uneven than other P5's? I don't see how that's possible unless the rest of the body/suspension has somehow stretched to accommodate the longer (or shorter) one.

[ripcord203]

Hey all, just joined the forum after reading these posts on torque steer. I too am experiencing the same problem ever since purchasing my '02 P5 last fall. There is a constant pull to the right. I took it back and they rechecked the alignment, tried a few things etc etc. Basically they said drive it because they felt it was the tires and that it would "wear" itself in. I did, but then winter came up and I installed my winter tires and lo and behold, I experienced the same problem with those tires. I put up with it over the winter and also developed a bad wheel bearing on the front right. So thinking that may be the cause of my problems, I took it in and had both wheel bearings changed. That cleared up the horrible noise, but still pulled to the right. So I took it back (I have since switched back to my summer tires) and they checked it for alignment and gave it a clean bill of health... Guess what, still pulls to the right. So I took the Business Manager for a drive and let him experience it, he was amazed. So in it went again for service. They double checked the alignment, took my tires off the rims and put on new tires. Went for a drive and still pulled to the right. They reinstalled my tires on the rims and then sent it to another garage for a "second opinion" on the alignment which was bang on. They garage is now at a loss as to what the problem may be. It appears after reading this post that perhaps there is nothing broken, wrong etc, but a flaw in the design from the factory. Who knows, but it is annoying. I have noticed that mine pulls whether there is torque/power applied to the wheels or not. I don't know what to do anymore, but putting the for sale sign in the window is soon becoming an option.

[redpr5]

my p5 auto pulls to the right no matter what...regardless of the gas being pushed, it just pulls to the right. whats weird is that i just had an alignment done, so im thinkin about taking it to a garage and havin it looked at, see if maybe somethin is up with the suspension and all

[2003newlyack]

mine pulls right as well, but im guessing its from abusing my ebrake (headbang)

[uiuc240]

This isn't the same effect, it turns to the right when gas is applied on any road. In fact I can drive it straight down a road that slopes to the left without touching the steerring wheel by just varying the throttle. If I put it in neutral then what the service guy said holds: straight on flat, turns to the left on sloped to the left, and turns to the right on sloped to the right.

It feels like the tires have taken a "set" (you'll know what I mean if you've
ever had this happen) but ONLY when gas is applied.



You lost me there. Are you saying my P5's axles or more uneven than other P5's? I don't see how that's possible unless the rest of the body/suspension has somehow stretched to accommodate the longer (or shorter) one.

1. Basically all cars designed for LHD are setup to pull ever-so-slightly to the right. This is to keep people from dozing off and possibly drifting into oncoming traffic. It should not be severe, but it should be there.

2. P5 axles are fine. I was just saying that in cars with unequal length drive axles (i.e. FWD cars with transverse mounted motor), you get torque steer. It's just part of the game. In lower gears, where there is more torque available, it is more noticeable. If you punch the gas, it pulls. That's just how it is.

Eric

[Shoey]

Hey everyone,

So today I had new tires installed and the pull is now gone. No alignment was done - only installation and balancing. Go figure.

Shoey

[Red5_02]

Whenever I take off from a dead stop and shift from 1st to 2nd, the car pulls HARD to the right. But this is normal for FWD cars. Shouldn't worry about it too much.

[i12drivemyMP5]

If something is off then the tires will wear. I'm just going with it's the nature of the car. Unequal axle lengths & the differential type plus the general tendency of FWD make the most sense. It's also a small safety factor as was stated where the car will go off the road & only harm the inattentive driver instead of innocent folks traveling in the opposite direction. It's definitely nothing so major to deal with that makes it time to sell the car. You'll just have some equally annoying probably worse little bugaboo with anything else you buy that's less than $50,000. Hell if you take it to the right alignment guy he can purposely align it with a pull to the left to even it out but then your tires will wear so it's just something way small to deal with. If you just use your left arm to drive with then it isn't noticeable since the weight of your arm will counterbalance the drift.

[pasadena_commut]

For a variety of reasons I ended up changing the tires today to a set of Falken Ziex 512, see:

http://www.msprotege.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2552422#post2552422

With the new tires the car no longer pulls to the right on flat services. They also checked the alignment and that was ok (it had been aligned earlier). So the strong pull appears to have been a tire problem with the Nankang's that were on the car when I bought it. Of course, I wouldn't have bought it if it had pulled like that then, but apparently the messed up alignment was compensating for the tire pull, and it only became evident after a tire rotation and having the alignment done.

[pilot511]

our cars actually have enough tq to torque steer?

[aMaff]

unequal lenghth half shafts ftl....

[purewhitemp5]

All US highways Have a crown in the middle of the road that gradually slopes to the right. This is so the rain water does not puddle on the road and drains to the side. If you just had an alignment done and your car pulls right slightly this is why. I too have had this mysterious pull to the right that dissapears once new tires are installed , but soon reappears after about 20,000 miles. Anyone care to explain this or has a clue ?

[JCell]

wider tires helped in my case

[pasadena_commut]

All US highways Have a crown in the middle of the road that gradually slopes to the right. This is so the rain water does not puddle on the road and drains to the side. If you just had an alignment done and your car pulls right slightly this is why.

The P5 steers a bit like a shopping cart - it loves to turn downhill. Because of this the only way to really test if the car is pulling is to drive it on a parking lot or other flat surface. Before the new tires my car was pulling right in the parking lot too. Now it goes nice and straight on any flat surface, but as you say, does pull slightly towards "downhill" on any tilted surface (be that left or right).