who knows about the speed 6

[spool4u]

What can it handle. Who has taken it to the limits.
I know it is , awd, and it is 6 speed with lsd, 274 hp and 280 tq , 2.3 liter turbo dohc, 9.5 to 1 compression, boost spikes to about 17 and holds around 15, and a very comfterable ride, but my questions are:

Whats the governor set at if there is one?
Whats the fastest someone has gone yet?
what are some dyno #?
What is actual size of turbo (centimeter wise)?
--------------size of o2 housing?
--------------size of exhaust piping?
How much power can the turbo produce safely?
How much power can the engine handle safely?
Has anyone hooked up a wideband (air/fuel) yet?
What size are stock injectors?
How much boost can the turbo make before overboosting?
Has anyone hooked up an safcII yet?
Has anyone ran nitrous on them yet?
What is the widest tire you can fit on stock 18s?
Is the turbo reverse scrolling or not?
Has anyone seen the stock egts (egt guage) yet?

I guess what i am saying is --- is it possible to get 325 to 350 hp out of this car without touching internals or turbo?

Personally i was told by a gm of mazda that he has a friend that upgraded things like boost, exhaust, intake, and a good tune and he was running 360 hp to the wheels, now i am not gulable or anything but i call bs.

[spool4u]

does anyone know anything about it besides the basics.

[Antoine]

Bump...Mods...We should be seeing more technical threads and posts that can answer some of the questions brought up by spool4u!

[TommyT913]

I can answer some of the questions you ask.

The top speed is electronically governed at 149 mph. As far as how fast I've gone... 129 mph while tangling with a BMW 5 series on the Garden State Parkway in NJ. I actually didn't know I was going that fast until I looked at the speedo!!!

I'll let some more knowledgable people handle the rest of the questions.

TommyT

[Flykazoo]

I can answer some of the questions you ask.

The top speed is electronically governed at 149 mph. As far as how fast I've gone... 129 mph while tangling with a BMW 5 series on the Garden State Parkway in NJ. I actually didn't know I was going that fast until I looked at the speedo!!!

I'll let some more knowledgable people handle the rest of the questions.

TommyT


How'd you do against the BMW5?

KeithC

[Killer]

Engine : 4 cylinder, turbocharged DOHC, front engine AWD
Displacement : 2,300 cc
Valve : 16 valves, 4 valves per cylinder
Transmission : 6-spd manual
Fuel economy : city - 18 mpg(estimated)
highway - 26 mpg(estimated)

Suspension : F - Independent double wishbone
R - Independent multilink
Brakes : F - Vented discs
R - Vented discs

Horsepower : 274 hp @ 5500 rpm
Torque : 280 lb-ft @ 3000rpm
Redline : unknown

Top speed : 150 mph
0-60 mph : 6.2 sec.
0-¼ mile : 14.7 sec @ 96.5 mph(estimated)
60-0 braking distance : 121 ft(estimated)
200 ft skidpad : 0.90 g(estimated)

Curb Weight : 3500 lbs(estimated)
Overall length : 186.6 in.
Wheelbase : 105.3 in.
Overall Width : 70.0 in.
Height : 56.9 in.

[Mazda3]

Those were the conservative estimates. In the real world the MS6 Has tested:

0-60: 5.3-5.8

1/4 mile: 13.8-14.3

With the slower times not using the proper octane gas.

[Killer]

Those were the conservative estimates. In the real world the MS6 Has tested:

0-60: 5.3-5.8

1/4 mile: 13.8-14.3

With the slower times not using the proper octane gas.

Cough up a time slip and you win. (first)

[Mazda3]

Cough up a time slip and you win. (first)

Car and Driver:

0-60 5.4

1/4: 14.0@99 MPH

World of Wheels:

0-100 KM: 5.8 = 0-60: 5.6

1/4: 13.8@100.44 MPH

(first)

[StuttersC]

Personally i was told by a gm of mazda that he has a friend that upgraded things like boost, exhaust, intake, and a good tune and he was running 360 hp to the wheels, now i am not gulable or anything but i call bs.

Manager of a dealership?? What do you mean by GM?

Dealerships are morons...

[Antoine]

Car and Driver:

0-60 5.4

1/4: 14.0@99 MPH

World of Wheels:

0-100 KM: 5.8 = 0-60: 5.6

1/4: 13.8@100.44 MPH

(first)

Holy Sh*t! 13.8 secs for a family sedan under 30k! (shocked)

[Killer]

Car and Driver:

0-60 5.4

1/4: 14.0@99 MPH

World of Wheels:

0-100 KM: 5.8 = 0-60: 5.6

1/4: 13.8@100.44 MPH

(first)You win! (thumb)

[ssinstaller]

Personally i was told by a gm of mazda that he has a friend that upgraded things like boost, exhaust, intake, and a good tune and he was running 360 hp to the wheels, now i am not gulable or anything but i call bs.

The turbo is already pretty much maxed out, it wont even hold the stock boost to redline.

[Rainman]

The turbo is already pretty much maxed out, it wont even hold the stock boost to redline.

On another Mazda forum there is an extensive discussion about the capacity of our turbo (search for a thread questioning whether 400 hp is attainable with DISI). The gist of the discussion is that our turbo is operating near its capacity. However, it is not the turbo that causes the drop in boost at redline. Rather, the ECU is pulling boost after 5500 RPM. The discussion suggested that with supporting mods (FMIC, CAI, upgraded exhaust, and optimized A/F ratios) the turbo was good for over 330 whp reliably. They speculated that the MS6 would be capable of 12s 1/4's. This was not simply speculation as they worked through the mathematics to back up their arguments. The sentiment was that the DISI, internals, and turbo could handle this output and that the main limiting factor would be the ECU and managment of the A/F ratios.

A dyno graph showing some 15 hp gain with the new CP-E intake revealed that the A/F went uber-rich (~10.1) under WOT after 4000 RPM. Protects your engine some, but not ideal for power. If we can get around the ECU things should be downright scary for the MS6 baby!

R

[Antoine]

On another Mazda forum there is an extensive discussion about the capacity of our turbo (search for a thread questioning whether 400 hp is attainable with DISI). The gist of the discussion is that our turbo is operating near its capacity. However, it is not the turbo that causes the drop in boost at redline. Rather, the ECU is pulling boost after 5500 RPM. The discussion suggested that with supporting mods (FMIC, CAI, upgraded exhaust, and optimized A/F ratios) the turbo was good for over 330 whp reliably. They speculated that the MS6 would be capable of 12s 1/4's. This was not simply speculation as they worked through the mathematics to back up their arguments. The sentiment was that the DISI, internals, and turbo could handle this output and that the main limiting factor would be the ECU and managment of the A/F ratios.

A dyno graph showing some 15 hp gain with the new CP-E intake revealed that the A/F went uber-rich (~10.1) under WOT after 4000 RPM. Protects your engine some, but not ideal for power. If we can get around the ECU things should be downright scary for the MS6 baby!

R

Another case of...If you can unlock the ECU...You unlock the power...? Very interesting findings Rick (thumb)

[Da 6]

Manager of a dealership?? What do you mean by GM?

Dealerships are morons...Take it that's general manager

[ssinstaller]

On another Mazda forum there is an extensive discussion about the capacity of our turbo (search for a thread questioning whether 400 hp is attainable with DISI). The gist of the discussion is that our turbo is operating near its capacity. However, it is not the turbo that causes the drop in boost at redline. Rather, the ECU is pulling boost after 5500 RPM. The discussion suggested that with supporting mods (FMIC, CAI, upgraded exhaust, and optimized A/F ratios) the turbo was good for over 330 whp reliably. They speculated that the MS6 would be capable of 12s 1/4's. This was not simply speculation as they worked through the mathematics to back up their arguments. The sentiment was that the DISI, internals, and turbo could handle this output and that the main limiting factor would be the ECU and managment of the A/F ratios.

A dyno graph showing some 15 hp gain with the new CP-E intake revealed that the A/F went uber-rich (~10.1) under WOT after 4000 RPM. Protects your engine some, but not ideal for power. If we can get around the ECU things should be downright scary for the MS6 baby!

R


***** quoted from littleeffer on the "other" forum


Pressure ratio is:

(15.7+14.7)/14.7= 2.068

CFM need is...

CFM = (L x RPM x VE x Pr)/5660

CFM= (2.3 x 6500 x 90 x 2.068)/ 5660

CFM= 491.6

This is the minimum the turbo must flow with an engine with a 90% VE to HOLD 15.7 PSI to 6500 RPM.

Gee... aint that funny.


Now if we assume a 100% VE like you did in your calculations...

CFM = (L x RPM x VE x Pr)/5660

CFM= (2.3 x 6500 x 100 x 2.068)/ 5660

CFM= 546.2




Now to really seal the deal lets look at the ACTUAL compressor map for a K04 turbo YAY!!!!!
http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/turbo/TurboMaps/k04-0025.jpg

As you can see at a pressure ratio of 2.068 the turbo is RIGHT on the edge of its efficency.

The MAXIMUM this turbo can flow at a pressure ratio of 2.068 is at the right hand upper edge of the map. Which just happens to be... 0.175 cubic meters a second. This converts into around 371 CFM.

I aint making this sh*t up...

Now we have already calculated the CFM needed to hold 15.7 PSI to redline. Thats 491.6 CFM at a 90% VE. This converts to 0.2320 cubic meters a second. This happens to be COMPLETELY off the chart and unattinable for this particular turbo.

This turbo is what we term Maxed Out. It is pretty close to being maxed out from the factory... No matter what you do it will NEVER efficently support 15.7 PSI at 6500 RPM.

This is PRECISELY why boost and power drops in the upper RPM band.
Heres another source... STRAIGHT from the horses mouth...

http://www.turbos.bwauto.com/en/products/passenger_gas.asp

0.21 kg/ sec of flow equals about 366.67 CFM at STP.

Im sure I stated this value before... sorry to be so repetitive...

Even the manufacturer makes power estimates... just to show ya I aint crazy...
There you go folks all spelled out for you... I didn't think it would be necessary but some people need more help understanding than others.
And I rest my case...


I have no doubt that bolt-ons and tuning will definatly free up some power, but it definalty looks like there is nothing we can do to get the stock turbo to hold 15.7 psi to redline.

[SVOGT]

Another case of...If you can unlock the ECU...You unlock the power...? Very interesting findings Rick (thumb)

Get these guys to build a unit for the MS6..........
Yeah, Baby (http://www.diablosport.com/main.php)

[Rainman]

***** quoted from littleeffer on the "other" forum





I have no doubt that bolt-ons and tuning will definatly free up some power, but it definalty looks like there is nothing we can do to get the stock turbo to hold 15.7 psi to redline.

Thanks for posting that info ssinstaller. I stand corrected in that I misspoke about the ability of our turbo to hold 15.7 PSI to redline. However, the overall sentiment was correct in that it is operating near its peak efficiency, but with certain mods we CAN extract more power out of her.

BTW, what type of flange comes with this turbo? Is there anything bigger that will bolt on without modification?

R

[Rainman]

Get these guys to build a unit for the MS6..........
Yeah, Baby (http://www.diablosport.com/main.php)

Now it looks as though they do only North American vehicles, particularly GM and Ford. So in that respect, Mazda is out. However, since Mazda is Ford, might they swing over to the dark side and fix something up for the MS6 crowd? I wonder. Have you dealt with them in the past?

R

[ssinstaller]

Thanks for posting that info ssinstaller. I stand corrected in that I misspoke about the ability of our turbo to hold 15.7 PSI to redline. However, the overall sentiment was correct in that it is operating near its peak efficiency, but with certain mods we CAN extract more power out of her.

BTW, what type of flange comes with this turbo? Is there anything bigger that will bolt on without modification?

R


I think it uses a round 3 bolt flange. I don't know of any other turbo manufacturers that use the same flange type.

I emailed ATP turbo about possible turbo uprgrades(they make bolt on turbo upgrades for VW's with KKK turbos). They replied back with a definate YES, they will be producing bolt on turbo replacement kits for our car. Hopefully they make something useing the GT30R of GT35R, either of those should let us hit about 400-500 WHP without issue.

[Antoine]

I think it uses a round 3 bolt flange. I don't know of any other turbo manufacturers that use the same flange type.

I emailed ATP turbo about possible turbo uprgrades(they make bolt on turbo upgrades for VW's with KKK turbos). They replied back with a definate YES, they will be producing bolt on turbo replacement kits for our car. Hopefully they make something useing the GT30R of GT35R, either of those should let us hit about 400-500 WHP without issue.

I think I need a new pair of pants...Man that 2.3 DIT is getting sweeter everyday! (2thumbs) The problem is...Won't engine and fuel management issues prove to be a major hurdle...It's fairly easy to slap on a larger turbo but getting that engine to effectively control and produce that power will be an issue...Anyone know the stock power limitations of the 2.3 DIT internals?

[eE jeremy]

The engine internals are probably not a problem, I would be much more concerned with the fuel system, there aren't any upgrades available yet, and due to the special injectors required for direct injection, it probably wont be available for a while. You would probably be better off adding fuel injectors to the intake tract and using some sort of controller to add fuel as power exedes the stock systems capabilities, HOWEVER the dyno's i've seen run GREATER than 10:1 AF ratio with the stock config, so I'm sure stock will hold atleast an additional 20% horsepower. :-)