DYNO'd my new DSM AFC!!!!!

[genius]

I dyno'd my DSM AFC and spent 4 hours tuning the hell out of it. I found a Mom and Pop dyno shop over in Crestview FL called Adam's Automotive. The owner brought me in on a Saturday when he was closed just so he could work solely on my MSP. He said he never saw one before and likes to help people that have something different. He said he usually only get's Hondas and I guess they get boring. LOL!

My AFC came pre-loaded with the Stock Super Map that was slightly enriched to prevent leaning from my mods. The reason DSM and I agreed to that was because my MAF was in the pressure side and my A/F guage was hitting lean spikes under boost.

I was still learning the software and I didn't save that map. I wish I did.

DSM, if you are reading this is there any way you can send me a copy of the map you used?

Anyways, Johnny, the Dyno operator ran the car on this map, and said that it was a well written map and was surprised at how well it worked but in his words said... I can do better LOL!

We were there for about 4 hours and made probably 8 or 9 passes. The first time we modified the map we changed a range of cells by 10%.... bad idea. The AFR jumped from a 10.3 to a 14. He stopped the dyno as soon as the WB read past 12. We learned that the MAF is extremely sensitive and that 1 ~ 2% is all we should change at any given time.

After about 4 hours, we made SIGNIFICANT TQ increases and about 10 more HP from the original super map to my new map.

Here are some tidbits of advice for those of you that just bought the AFC and want to tune it out:

1. The cell values that you have to manipulate are very sensitive, changing a value from 9.1 to 9.2 can change the AFR by .5 or more. So only make a few changes at a time and keep them small. The software can make the changes for you and if you use the "Change by" option, go no more than 2%.

2. MAKE SURE you go through the options menu and check the system settings and engine settings! That is crucial. It will change back to default if you open a new customer and sometimes even if you just restart the program. I didn't check it once and when I was working with a map, I tried to load it and it said database error. Then when I tried to reload the DB again, it just kept saying DB error... it destroyed my file irreparably. In my case I had to start over twice until I figured it out. Another symtom is that the map will show 10's everywhere, that is a bad sign. When I saw that I thought that DSM sold me the AFC as a placebo... LMAO!

3. Remember that when you read the data from the ECU, it WILL overwrite back to the file you have saved!!! This is why I don't have the original map to share with everyone. If you want to back up the map that is currently on the AFC, make a new customer, read map from the ECU, then close the customer and save that DB for a rainy day. Then open a new customer again, read from ECU and then start making changes.

Below are some attachments. For those of you who do not have the R4 software, I have pasted the map to an excel spreadsheet and is "my final map.xls".

For those of you who do have the R4 software, I included "kelly 2.zip". In order to open it you need winzip. The map is inside the archive. The reason I did that is because you can only upload certain extensions.

I am scanning the dyno charts now and will post them in my next thread.

[Fudgie]

You can download the orginal map from his website: www.airflowlogistics.com

[genius]

You can download the orginal map from his website: www.airflowlogistics.com (http://www.airflowlogistics.com)

The map that was given to me was not the same as the one from the site. We had concerns of hitting too lean because of my open exhaust and MAF sitting on the pressure side with 2.5 ID piping. John intentionally enrichened my MAP before shipping. I would really like to have been able to compare the two maps and let everyone see how we improved his.

[Fudgie]

Oh, ok. Thats cool he hooked you up. How did the original map feel?

[genius]

Ok below are the charts. I got rid of the other lines and left just the first run with the original map and then our final product. On the TQ the dark blue was the starting run and the aqua was the final product.

We couldn't get the AFR's super imposed at the time. If you guys really really really want those charts and the demand is high enough for them, I can drive the 40 mins back over with a floppy and get that chart for you.

But if you can do me a favor and take my word on this, the A/F is roughly 14 until we hit about 2 psi. Then it drops sharply to 11.3 and then varies from 11.5 to 11.9 with the average being 11.8 all the way through. My dyno tech spent hours fine tuning the curve and made an impressively smooth line. In the end he only charged my for 2 hours.

Now you may notice that on the TQ chart, it appears that we lost TQ on the highest end... we know that is incorrect as a matter of fact impossible because we were hitting 195's at 6K all day and when that reading was taken, we were done messing with the high end numbers over 2 hours before that. We NEVER had to adjust any voltages above 6000 rpms.

The engine was getting heat soaked and the blower he had sitting on top of the engine between runs was getting too hot. I would have had to swap out the manifold blower and wait 15 mins to get that peak to be accurate again. I wasn't about to spend $130 for another hour just to see something I knew to be true.

Overall, I was slightly disappointed, I really thought I was going to break 200hp... I have modded out the car almost as far as I am willing to go. The only step I can do now is WRX injectors and retune. I guess I could have dyno's it at 11 and see if the injectors would max out...

How much boost are you guys running with the WRX injectors and what is your AFR? It is my understanding that if I get these injectors, I can up the boost on stock rods so long as I keep the AFR's down and I keep the RPM's below red line.

As always feedback is appreciated:)

[genius]

Oh, ok. Thats cool he hooked you up. How did the original map feel?

I knew it was rich. It was backfiring and this may sound hard to believe for some people, but I can hear it in the engine as I am driving... I can't really describe it. But my feelings were correct, the original AFR's were low 10's.

[ZenProtege]

good write up, how much of a gain did you see?

[genius]

good write up, how much of a gain did you see?

Well since I didn't have a base line from before I installed the AFC, I am sorry to tell you I really don't know. But from an ass dyno point of view I will say this. When I installed the AFC I immediately noticed a huge difference in power. Then after I tuned it I know that I gained about 8 HP in the middle. If I measure the gain I felt on the way home against what I felt on the way to the dyno and using that as a reference I would speculate that I gained about 15 HP overall.

[lcruz64]

genius I have updated this (http://www.msprotege.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123620555) thread to include your map.
-Thanks

[genius]

genius I will like to update this (http://www.msprotege.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123620555) thread to include your map if you don't mind, let me know I won't update until you agree.

How could I say NO? LOL! Ofcourse you can! This way I know that the money at the dyno was well spent:)

[genius]

genius I have updated this (http://www.msprotege.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123620555) thread to include your map.
-Thanks

Icruz64... You could have renamed it! LOL!!!!

You may also want to specify the SU SMIC and 2.5 inch pipes...

[lcruz64]

Icruz64... You could have renamed it! LOL!!!!

You may also want to specify the SU SMIC and 2.5 inch pipes...
Done.

[sickspeed94]

dyno time is expensive huh?

[genius]

dyno time is expensive huh?

130/hr with WB. But I had a really good operator who knew a lot about FI. It was worth every penny just to watch him meticously shape the graphs the way he wanted it.

[sickspeed94]

HOLY HELL!!! and you spent 4 hours there? that's just shy of 550 bucks for dyno time alone!

[lcruz64]

Buy a wideband with data log with that much and go to the dyno to run once and know your power that's it.

[genius]

HOLY HELL!!! and you spent 4 hours there? that's just shy of 550 bucks for dyno time alone!

Nah, I came in while the shop was closed and the guy wanted to dedicate a day to my car since it was different from what he has seen before. He only charged me for two hours.

[genius]

Buy a wideband with data log with that much and go to the dyno to run once and know your power that's it.

With your own WB, he can dyno and tune for 75 per hour.

[protegeric]

map library: http://www.msprotege.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123620555&page=4&pp=15

[livelyjay]

I would have expected more power running 10psi. I ran mine with Vibrant exhaust and my own map at 185whp at a stock 7psi. The SuperMap yielded 183ish whp, and it's because I think it was pulling timing in the upper RPMs. At 10psi I would probably break 210whp. I'm going to play around with some of the library maps and see what the results are. Fudgie sent me his map and I'm going to try it out and I'll also try out the Winter FMIC map and compare the two.

[livelyjay]

Oh yeah, throw your Dyno results in the Dyno section.

[DSMConvert]

woot, glad to hear genius. Yes the AFC is very very very sensitive in values, hehe. YOu also brought up a good point about making sure you have the settings correct, this does make a huge difference. I richened up your map pretty darn good, so its no suprise it ran as rich as it did, but after reading your post it seems that perhaps having the maf on the pressure side doesn't change the fuel curve that much...

[DiscreetSpeed]

pimp

[genius]

woot, glad to hear genius. Yes the AFC is very very very sensitive in values, hehe. YOu also brought up a good point about making sure you have the settings correct, this does make a huge difference. I richened up your map pretty darn good, so its no suprise it ran as rich as it did, but after reading your post it seems that perhaps having the maf on the pressure side doesn't change the fuel curve that much...

The preloaded map was a very good safe map. The dyno guy even said that whoever I bought it from must be very reputable.

The only complaint he had was that the resolution (500 rpm increments) was not what he was used to. He does a lot of Honda's using a system called "Hondata" or something like that that had much tighter resolution.

But in my opinion, the resolution was fine. I guess that is one of the differences between $300 and $800 investment in an EMS.

[livelyjay]

The preloaded map was a very good safe map. The dyno guy even said that whoever I bought it from must be very reputable.

The only complaint he had was that the resolution (500 rpm increments) was not what he was used to. He does a lot of Honda's using a system called "Hondata" or something like that that had much tighter resolution.

But in my opinion, the resolution was fine. I guess that is one of the differences between $300 and $800 investment in an EMS.
The preloaded map is safe for boost levels of 9psi and lower, but I think safe is a relative term. When I tested the supermap with my wideband the upper RPM levels were in the 13:1 range, which to me isn't safe, but DSMConvert says that it is safe. For peace of mind, I richened up my map and got it to be 12.5:1 max. Once I up my boost to ~9 psi I'll do another dyno pull to see where I'm at.

EDIT: I might do some theoretical dyno runs with my Auterra. It would be nice to actually get it working since it is a feature of the software and I haven't used it yet. Now with some true dyno results, I know what to expect and how to tweak the settings to get it right.

[peepsalot]

Hey genius, is your IAT moved to the pressure side as well? Are oyu hitting fuel cut with the stock injectors?

[genius]

The preloaded map is safe for boost levels of 9psi and lower, but I think safe is a relative term. When I tested the supermap with my wideband the upper RPM levels were in the 13:1 range, which to me isn't safe, but DSMConvert says that it is safe. For peace of mind, I richened up my map and got it to be 12.5:1 max. Once I up my boost to ~9 psi I'll do another dyno pull to see where I'm at.

EDIT: I might do some theoretical dyno runs with my Auterra. It would be nice to actually get it working since it is a feature of the software and I haven't used it yet. Now with some true dyno results, I know what to expect and how to tweak the settings to get it right.

12.5 isn't safe for me. I guess I am ultra concervative. I tuned mine for 11.8 with a 12.2 spike in the middle.

What is an Auterra? Also, since we are on the subject, is there a way to get the chart recorder to record the O2 sensor? If you open the chart recording in Kelly 2.zip, all I got was boost, RPM, and what appeared to be correction factor?

[livelyjay]

Auterra is a data logger. It logs all OBD2 readings and can do certain things like theoretical dynos.

[genius]

Hey genius, is your IAT moved to the pressure side as well? Are oyu hitting fuel cut with the stock injectors?

No and no. I removed the FCD when I installed the AFC. And I am not hitting fuel cut at all and quite frankly, I can't imagine how I would. Throughout the entire range of RPM's from about 1.5 psi to 10, the MAF is corrected down by some degree. Also, I dynoed on a really cold day.

As for the IAT, it is tucked cheasily under the cone filter:)

[genius]

Auterra is a data logger. It logs all OBD2 readings and can do certain things like theoretical dynos.

Cool... I will have to look into that one. I would need to fabricate a OBD to serial cable I presume?

[flat_black]

Urm, don't tune for too rich... You'll end up losing a good deal of power, and wasting lots of fuel, and I'm pretty certain your car won't blow up at all sitting a full 2 degrees of ratio below the stoich 14.7:1. I would say going between 12-13:1 would be better than sitting down closer to 11 or 10.

[genius]

Urm, don't tune for too rich... You'll end up losing a good deal of power, and wasting lots of fuel, and I'm pretty certain your car won't blow up at all sitting a full 2 degrees of ratio below the stoich 14.7:1. I would say going between 12-13:1 would be better than sitting down closer to 11 or 10.

That would probably explain why I can only hit 189 LOL! I am thinking about the WRX injectors. Perhaps if I get those I will consider going 12's until 10 psi, then bring it down to 11's thru about 13 psi on the high end.

[daedalus]

HOLY HELL!!! and you spent 4 hours there? that's just shy of 550 bucks for dyno time alone!
lol... six hours on the dyno here... woot woot!

Nice gains on the DSM... i'm glad to see its working well for you and your making great power with it.

[genius]

I would have expected more power running 10psi. I ran mine with Vibrant exhaust and my own map at 185whp at a stock 7psi. The SuperMap yielded 183ish whp, and it's because I think it was pulling timing in the upper RPMs. At 10psi I would probably break 210whp. I'm going to play around with some of the library maps and see what the results are. Fudgie sent me his map and I'm going to try it out and I'll also try out the Winter FMIC map and compare the two.

See... that is what I don't understand. Something might not be right about my setup but I can't imagine what it is. I did notice a damaged coupler on my piping. It was rubbing the tip of a screw that was sticking up from my battery box. The same screw that used to support the MAF. But it is not a clean break and if you look at my datalog, my boost ramps up strong and then jitters slightly around 9ish to 10.

I suppose I could turn the MBC to 11 PSI and jitter around 10?

My exhaust is still 2.5. It is just completely opened. I didn't want to go with a 3" because at the time, I was concerned about maintaining some back pressure for the valve springs and quite frankly, I really hate the sound of a pissed off bumble bee that usually comes out of a 3 inch exhaust.

I also haven't messed with the S-pipe for two reasons, first, I may know a lot about cars, but I am not a good mechanic, I tend to make a lot of mistakes (strip bolts ect), secondly, I never imagined it would really make that much of a difference.

So something is holding me back, I just don't know what... The only thing I can do at this point is just move forward.

[DSMConvert]

genius firs thing you should do is test for boost leaks...this is the cause 80% of the time on cars...

[genius]

genius firs thing you should do is test for boost leaks...this is the cause 80% of the time on cars...

Besides being slightly lean on the very low end, I don't recall reporting any problems.... did I?

EDIT: Oh you might be talking about the fact the my AFC doesn't agree with my boost guage? No I really don't think I have a boost leak. For the most part it seems fairly steady. It may dip .5 psi on the datalog for a brief instance.

My only slight issue is that my boost guage reads a solid 10 and the AFC reads a fairly solid 9. I really should have cross-checked the guage to the AFC and turned it up while I was on the dyno. If I turn it up now, do I really need to go back to the dyno? I mean, if I keep the numbers linear on the map it should be ok right?

[JDM Sam]

Seems like you need more tuning. Is your ECU flashed or not? What octane gas are you running? I'm particularly not a fan of the pressurized MAF mod, you need to put the IAT sensor back in the intake tract for a more precise reading. It affects how the PCM adds or pulls timing according to intake temp.


I hit 181 with non flashed ECU, K&N air filter, hot side hardpipe, catless test pipe, iridium plugs, @ 9 psi, stock air box and exhaust on a 248C dynojet.
For what you are running you are down on power especially at a decent AFR.

[genius]

Seems like you need more tuning. Is your ECU flashed or not? What octane gas are you running? I'm particularly not a fan of the pressurized MAF mod, you need to put the IAT sensor back in the intake tract for a more precise reading. It affects how the PCM adds or pulls timing according to intake temp.


I hit 181 with non flashed ECU, K&N air filter, hot side hardpipe, catless test pipe, iridium plugs, @ 9 psi, stock air box and exhaust on a 248C dynojet.
For what you are running you are down on power especially at a decent AFR.

93 Octane and the IAT is inside the cone filter so it is in the intake tract... sort of.

[genius]

Seems like you need more tuning. Is your ECU flashed or not? What octane gas are you running? I'm particularly not a fan of the pressurized MAF mod, you need to put the IAT sensor back in the intake tract for a more precise reading. It affects how the PCM adds or pulls timing according to intake temp.


I hit 181 with non flashed ECU, K&N air filter, hot side hardpipe, catless test pipe, iridium plugs, @ 9 psi, stock air box and exhaust on a 248C dynojet.
For what you are running you are down on power especially at a decent AFR.

I just now ordered a replacement silicone coupler. It looks like it is damaged. Though I don't think it is leaking because my boost is somewhat steady but we will see what happens.

I personnaly like the pressurized MAF mod. The readings are more synominous with what is actually coming into the TB and also, if I blow a pipe, the car will still run.

Also, I am flashed.

[Spooled]

My exhaust is still 2.5. It is just completely opened. I didn't want to go with a 3" because at the time, I was concerned about maintaining some back pressure for the valve springs and quite frankly, I really hate the sound of a pissed off bumble bee that usually comes out of a 3 inch exhaust.


2.5" should be fine for that power level. Don't worry about back-pressure; pushing the turbine in the turbo takes care of that. You want the exhaust as open as possible for the most power.

The MSP definitely does not sound like a pissed off bumble bee with 3". I have 3" from the DP back and it sounds more like a pissed off rottweiler, haha. I really want to get the CS S/J combo sometime, I just need to find the time to pull the turbo to get it installed.

[sandspeed]

subbed for good info, i have my dsm afc installed and want to do a dyno tune once i have my 3" downpipe installed. does anyone's idle dip real low when idling after installing the afc?

[protegeric]

Yeah, sometimes my car dies. I`m gonna clean my EGR valve. Also, I think there is a thread or a bunch of posts somewhere about this.


subbed for good info, i have my dsm afc installed and want to do a dyno tune once i have my 3" downpipe installed. does anyone's idle dip real low when idling after installing the afc?

[genius]

subbed for good info, i have my dsm afc installed and want to do a dyno tune once i have my 3" downpipe installed. does anyone's idle dip real low when idling after installing the afc?

Well it could be your EGR but if you installed the AFC and then noticed the idle dip, I would check your splices and you vac line. Make sure you are still getting ~-22 in vac on your guage. My car does have an idle dip when I first start it and it is already warm. This would not be an EGR problem because usually the EGR would cause it to dip when it is cold... Atleast I would imagine that to be true.

[sickspeed94]

yeah mine's fine, nver had an idle problem, running lean when it's below 78ish degrees, but idle's fine. check your wiring. (thumb)

[sandspeed]

I had my dsm installed and drove around for a week and everything was great. Then I installed the front awr (70) motor mount and no the idle constantly dips like crazy?

[genius]

I had my dsm installed and drove around for a week and everything was great. Then I installed the front awr (70) motor mount and no the idle constantly dips like crazy?

Oh ok... ya definately a dirty EGR.

[protegeric]

http://www.msprotege.com/forum/showthread.php?t=94788

[sandspeed]

thanks protegeric for that link. I'm going to clean it satuday , hope it helps.

[Puckpimp71]

It should... Just look at the stains it left on the street in front of my house and you'll see all the crap that came out of that little thing. BTW, I did this right after Wilma and it's still there.

[sandspeed]

update: i stil have not cleaned my egr , but my car has been running pretty damn good lately. When I get back to florida I plan on installing my cold side intercooler pipe and to clean the egr as well. Then the full 3" goes on and then off to the dyno. I am going to see how much hp at stock boost and then tune at 7psi.
i roll raced my neighbor who has a integra type r(stock) and walked away quiker than i though i would. his car is pretty quick stock too

[ONRAILS]

Subbin... My dsm afc should be here on Saturday. So I will have a ton of questions! ;)