How hard is it to get to VICS?

[pasadena_commut]

With all of the "loose VICS screws blew up my car" threads in this forum I'd really like to find out the state of those in my P5 and loctite them on if (necessary) before they cause me any pain.

Now come the questions...

1. Is there a way to check the VICS screws other than by removing the intake manifold? For instance, threading a tool like a colonoscope in through the throttle body after removing just part of the air intake?

2. If that isn't an option how hard is it to remove the intake manifold? Is there a HOWTO with pictures for this somewhere? If it only requires a socket set and screw drivers I might be game, but if it needs air tools or something else specialized then I'd rather have a pro do it.

3. Any idea what a mechanic (not the Mazda dealer!) might charge to do this?

4. Anybody know why the VICS screws fall out but not the VTCS screws? From the few pictures I've seen they look like they might be the same screws.

If this isn't too expensive or too much work it would be worth it for the piece of mind in knowing that a stupid little screw won't be blowing up the motor 5 days after the warranty expires.

Thanks.

[blynd_spy]

1. sorry not doable

2. probably a how-to somewhere on here, havent searched yet myself. Dont think it should be too bad, just time consuming getting everything mounted to it out of the way first and getting to the screws on the bottom side

3. you probably dont want to know, maybe warranty?!?..

4. dont know why they fall out but the VTCS screws have about an 1/8" head that protrudes above the bar that the butterflys are attached while the VICS screws are inset with the bar holding the flys

If you need any pics let me know I have my spare intake manifold sittin right next to me. Just ask and ill do my best

[peepsalot]

It's a pain in the ass to remove the intake manifold, but it can be done with a basic set of sockets and extensions. Having all the proper extensions is key for getting to all 7 bolts that hold the face of the manifold on. And when putting it back on, you gotta be careful not to overtorque the bolts, only 12-14ft-lbs IIRC. The EGR pipe removal is the hardest part of it, I nearly gave up because of it.

Flat black made a how-to for people that are removing VTCS, but the parts about removing the manifold should be the same. Also, Turfburn @ NSN motorsports has a how to for installing their thermal spacers that is basically the same deal.

[pasadena_commut]

3. you probably dont want to know, maybe warranty?!?..


I already asked the local dealer about this. They'll fix it if it blows up but won't do anything to keep it from blowing up. Methinks somebody did the math and figured they'd come out ahead by repairing all those cars that blew up after the warranty expired.



4. dont know why they fall out but the VTCS screws have about an 1/8" head that protrudes above the bar that the butterflys are attached while the VICS screws are inset with the bar holding the flys

If you need any pics let me know I have my spare intake manifold sittin right next to me. Just ask and ill do my best


Are the screws the same diameter and length? A picture of both side by side might be helpful, if your camera can focus in that tight, along with a ruler for scale.

If the VICS are the little metric bolts with conical heads and the conical holes they are set into are not at quite the right angle (larger angle) then the heads would make almost no contact. If that happens there's no friction from the head and the screw would have an easier time backing out. Especially since when that valve opens at 5000+ rpm there must be a fair amount of turbulence from the air passing over the butterfly. When the butterfly is open and air is passing over it will the screw head be in the airstream?
Conversely, if the VTCS screws are flat on the bottom then when they are torqued down they might grind into the metal tightly enough to lock the screw in place.

Or it could be something as simple as one being coated with oil before insertion and the other not. Or um, one being the same material as the butterfly and the other not, so that there are thermal expansion issues.

[blynd_spy]

heres some close up pics of a VICS valve. The screws are pretty tight, if you didnt have the exact size phillips bit you could most likely strip it out, didnt want to try too hard just for that reason.

Removed the VTCS system so only have the one picture of that screw. The six outside screws were not at all hard to remove, the two screws in the middle (stripped in the picture) i could only get out via vice grips, but you can see how far the head sticks out.

[blynd_spy]

I could see a VTCS screw falling out for sure. They seem to be of softer metal and take more air flow than the VICS especially 5000+ rpm. As for the VICS screws falling out, i just dont understand why it happens. They are in there pretty tight and hang a bit out the other side. I havent read too many threads on the VICS system notingly the VICS/VTCS Screw List i see popping up a lot.

[pasadena_commut]

Thanks for the pictures!


As for the VICS screws falling out, i just dont understand why it happens. They are in there pretty tight and hang a bit out the other side.

Just to be clear - are you saying that the hole for the VICS screw passes all the way through the valve plate, so that the shaft of the VICS screw extends past both surface planes of the valve? That's hard to see in the picture but I guess would make sense given that the valve plate isn't very thick.

If that's the case, when the valve is closed isn't there a net force on the screw: lower pressure on the screw head pulling up and a positive pressure (relative) on the "point" side pushing in? If the screw for whatever reason became "not tight" wouldn't those forces tend to move the screw out of the hole? Throw in some high frequency motor vibration to jiggle the screw and, ugh!

I wonder if a dab of loctite on the part protruding through the plate would be enough to keep the screws in. Then one wouldn't have to loosen the screws that are not loose. Any Mazda techs reading this? When you're fixing a motor that's been the victim of a VICS screw what do you do to ensure that the replacement screw doesn't also fall out?

Now that I see it the assembly seems backwards. I would have designed it so that the screws went through the plate into the support, with the screw heads being on the "upwind" side of the plate when the valve was closed.

[Salmon_Rob]

it isnt the vics screw that comes out, its VTCS

[Johnnybass]

it isnt the vics screw that comes out, its VTCS

beat me, damn-it

through reading previous threads about this, the common misconception is that the VICS screws are falling out...like silver03p5 said, its the VTCS screws that are falling out...take note

[Salmon_Rob]

also VICS = very good, i.e. dont remove VICS
VTCS = very bad, remove by all means

[NRRfrogmanP5]

so this is the rattling noise that i hear as i let of the gas and sounds like something is rattling back and forth

[Foolish]

Just so I'm sure I understand, are both of these systems on all 2.0 N/A Protege motors, of all years?

[pasadena_commut]

it isnt the vics screw that comes out, its VTCS

Compare the picture of the VICS from earlier in the thread to that in the "Sue Mazda?" thread:

http://www.msprotege.com/forum/showthread.php?t=115948

It sure looks like the VICS is messed up in the "Sue Mazda?" thread.

That doesn't mean that the VTCS screws can't come out too.

[Salmon_Rob]

the first set of runners, which that is, is the VTCS

[peepsalot]

the first set of runners, which that is, is the VTCS
(scratch) what are you saying? Was that a question?

[Salmon_Rob]

im saying that what broke on that car is the VTCS, not vics as he seemed to be implying. the first set is VTCS, which is used to help control cold start emmisions. VICS is the actual awesome one, that makes one fastar

[peepsalot]

doooooood.

The pics in the Sue Mazda thread are of VICS. The pics that blynd_spy posted are (in order of appearance): VICS, VICS, VICS, and VTCS.

[Salmon_Rob]

sorry, i was looking at it like it was rightside up. my bizad

[pasadena_commut]

the first set of runners, which that is, is the VTCS

Let's all get on the same page here.

Both sets of pictures (this thread and the "Sue Mazda?" thread cited above) show two rows of holes: one row of circular holes and one row of oblong holes. From my reading of the comments with these pictures these are:

circular == VICS
oblong == VTCS

Is that right or wrong?

[peepsalot]

Correct.

The VTCS butterflies are at the edge of the manifold where it meets the head.

The VICS are inside the manifold which has to be taken apart into it's two halves to get to.

[pasadena_commut]

Correct.

The VTCS butterflies are at the edge of the manifold where it meets the head.

The VICS are inside the manifold which has to be taken apart into it's two halves to get to.

Ok, that's settled then.

As I understand it the VICS are normally closed and only open above a certain RPM in order to provide more air (or better intake tuning, or something like that.)

The VTCS on the other hand are open pretty much all the time except when the motor is cold when they change angle to cause turbulence in the flow which somehow or other results in the engine running cleaner, resulting in the ULEV designation. (Do the VTCS valves ever close all the way?) When the motor is warmed up the VTCS valves open as much as possible. So removing the VTCS, which it seems a lot of people have done, gives a little more power most of the time at the expense of increased emissions from the few minutes when the engine is really cold. The thing that strikes me as odd is that at the same time the car is playing with the VTCS valves it's also making the fuel mixture richer, apparently to heat up the catalytic converter faster. (I don't recall where I read that.) My car warms up pretty quickly, it only takes a minute or two for the T gauge to get near the middle of the range. Does anybody know exactly how much of a difference the presence of the VTCS actually makes in the emissions? Just to play devil's advocate, are the emissions when the car is warm lower, higher, or the same plus/minus the VTCS? Because it seems if the flow is a little better without the VTCS the motor might run slightly cleaner, and if emissions at normal temps were at all lower with the VTCS then the net emissions would depend on the ratio of run time warm vs cold.

[peepsalot]

The VTCS does close all the way when it is activated. However, the VTCS vanes have a smaller oblong shape cutout of the top of them, so that when they are closed "all the way" there is still a 1/4 or so of the entire runner area open for airflow. It's not the best pic to demonstrate, but you can kinda see this in blynd_spy's 4th pic. As far as emissions go, I don't think anyone could say for sure without doing a before/after sniffer test.

[apocman]

I just took my VTCS completely out and just left the rail the flaps were connected to in. I will go back later and do the removal of the bar and port and polish it with the how-to on here at a later time.

[blynd_spy]

I just took my VTCS completely out and just left the rail the flaps were connected to in. I will go back later and do the removal of the bar and port and polish it with the how-to on here at a later time.

so you are saying you removed your IM to just remove the butterflies?? Why didnt you just at least remove the bar at the same time? With the bar there it still disrupts the airflow, just sorta seems like it would ne a waste of time..

[Johnnybass]

so you are saying you removed your IM to just remove the butterflies?? Why didnt you just at least remove the bar at the same time? With the bar there it still disrupts the airflow, just sorta seems like it would ne a waste of time..


right??? now you'll have to do it all again just to get to the same part...oh well (cheers)

[pasadena_commut]

Returning to the original question for a minute...



1. Is there a way to check the VICS screws other than by removing the intake manifold? For instance, threading a tool like a colonoscope in through the throttle body after removing just part of the air intake?

There was one response that this wasn't possible. We've established that the VICS valves live in the middle of the intake manifold and that the screws go all the way through the valves. So if the throttle body was removed what exactly is preventing the threading some sort of scope in through the hole to see at least one side of the VICS valves? From either side one should be able to determine if the screws are in all the way. Are there baffles or U turns or some other odd structures in the way in the half of the manifold between the throttle body hole and the VICS valves?

At some point while taking off the intake manifold all the bolts will have been removed. If the manifold isn't supported at that point does it fall onto whatever is beneath it in the engine compartment or is it supported by something that it isn't bolted to? I'm only 5'8" and it already looks like I'd nearly have to crawl in there with it to reach some of the bolts. What does the manifold weigh? Given the its position it looks like it's going to be one really awkward lift to get it out. Would it help to take the hood off first?

[peepsalot]

When removing the manifold, you will remove nuts from studs that are embedded in the head. After the nuts are off, the manifold will still be resting on the studs. You will have to pick it up and slide it off of these before it has any chance of falling.

As far as the colonoscope goes, there are no special baffles in the way, but I'm having a hard time visualizing and remembering if there are some tricky turns on the path from the throttle body to VICS. Also, you can manually move the arm of the actuator from the outside of the manifold to get a better look at both sides of the flaps(assuming you already have your colonoscope in place). I don't really know what you are expecting to see though.

I'm not good at guessing weight, but the manifold weighs no more than 20lbs. Taking the hood off is not necessary. I pulled the manifold off on my own after a little effort, I'm not particularly strong, and was already exhausted at that point. The only thing making it difficult was some hoses and things in the way that it kept catching on.

[apocman]

ok just found out that the guy who took out my VTCS also removed my VICS!!!! I'm so pissed off!!!! My fucking car is so fucking slow becuase of this !!!!!

Lucky I have an extra MSP intake !!!!

DO NOT REMOVE YOUR VICS, UNLESS YOU WANT TO BE AS SLOW AS A FUCKING TURTLE ON SLEEPING PILLS!!!!!

[apocman]

a friend did it for me and then told me later he did it, but he took out my VICS and he didn't tell me so I was going crazy trying to figure out why my car was so slow until he told me...


so you are saying you removed your IM to just remove the butterflies?? Why didnt you just at least remove the bar at the same time? With the bar there it still disrupts the airflow, just sorta seems like it would ne a waste of time..

[pasadena_commut]

Having all the proper extensions is key for getting to all 7 bolts that hold the face of the manifold on. And when putting it back on, you gotta be careful not to overtorque the bolts, only 12-14ft-lbs IIRC.

I have a 3" and 10" extension. What else is included in "all the proper extensions"?

My tools include your basic low end socket set with metric and nonmetric sockets and a 7" ratchet. So far it has had a socket to match every bolt on the P5. I also have a "click type" 0-80 ft-lb torque wrench.

Are deep sockets needed?

[peepsalot]

The nsn tutorial gives a good list of tools you will probably need.
http://www.nsnmotorsports.com/docs/thermalinstall.htm
discussion here:
http://www.msprotege.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123615890&highlight=manifold

And then there is this that I used in conjuntion with the nsn instructions:
http://www.msprotege.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1238567&postcount=69
from here:
http://www.msprotege.com/forum/showthread.php?t=81080

And more info here
http://flatblack.somethingsomething.org/p5/porting/
discussion here:
http://www.msprotege.com/forum/showthread.php?t=82884

[blynd_spy]

There was one response that this wasn't possible. We've established that the VICS valves live in the middle of the intake manifold and that the screws go all the way through the valves. So if the throttle body was removed what exactly is preventing the threading some sort of scope in through the hole to see at least one side of the VICS valves? From either side one should be able to determine if the screws are in all the way. Are there baffles or U turns or some other odd structures in the way in the half of the manifold between the throttle body hole and the VICS valves?
As far as the colonoscope goes, there are no special baffles in the way, but I'm having a hard time visualizing and remembering if there are some tricky turns on the path from the throttle body to VICS. Also, you can manually move the arm of the actuator from the outside of the manifold to get a better look at both sides of the flaps(assuming you already have your colonoscope in place). I don't really know what you are expecting to see though.

Here is pic of the bottom half of the IM. The throttle body is on the right. The bottom cavern (highlighted blue) Is connected to the runners on top (also blue) and is totally seperate from the cavern with the VICS (highlighted red)

So yeah pasadena, colonoscope would have to go through the throttle body, top runners, and then bend 180 to see the BOTTOM of the flaps, side with no screws heads showing.
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