Spark plug help strikes again

[tallrd]

All the photos and info I've been finding don't show anything that looks this chalky white. I've only checked this one cylinder, but let's assume the others are similar (yes, I'll check them later too). Please help me diagnose what this one means:

[Brian MP5T]

Extreme Heat will cause that.

Loose the Iridium and go with OEM Copper.

[TurfBurn]

Yes definitely ditch the iridium... I run NGK BKR6E's with good luck... the plug is generally a bit hot, but not too too bad... doesn't show det marks but it is a little fuzzy right where I need to see.. keep in mind if you were highway cruising right before you pulled the plugs that they will look more "lean" than if you pull them right after boost... like literally take a new set of plugs and right in the middle of boost shut the car off and coast to a stop and pull and read the plugs... that is the most accurate way of checking plugs for each condition (hit the desired condition and then shut the car off in the middle of it and then read the plug).

[tallrd]

These are the one's which were in the car when I got it back in Feb, so I've never changed them on this car. Can you tell that those are iridium just by looking?

PZFR6F-11 is the OEM plug; Assuming the plugs I have are iridium as you say, are you also saying that will be better even factoring in the mods I've done?

[peepsalot]

Can you tell that those are iridium just by looking?
Yeah the tip narrows down to a fine point, whereas a copper plug tip is just a straight cylindrical shape.

[tallrd]

Yeah the tip narrows down to a fine point, whereas a copper plug tip is just a straight cylindrical shape.

(Mr. Burns voice) "ehhhxcellent."

[TurfBurn]

Shawn... I'm just about positive that Chris didn't put Iridiums in there... so I'm guessing they are the stock platinum's unless Eric who owned it before Chris put them in there... I didn't even realize it was you that posted... I was just responding to the info... I just assumed Brian was right... But I know Chris didn't put Iridiums in there.. I would have beat him sensless had he tried.

[FlyinMSP]

Those plugs run way too hot!. BTW, those are the stock platinium ones! Iridiums are great. I had NGK and now Denso and both have been just right on the spot, just perfect! :)
Get the Denso IK-22 (colder) and u'll be fine

[BOOSTR]

I'm on my second set of NGK PZFR6F-11's. Changed the oem plugs at 33,086. They looked normal and showed correct heat range and operating conditions.

Your plug shows that its too hot. Blistered white insulator. What plug number is that?

[FlyinMSP]

Your problem may be somewhere else though... I read "Air Flow Logistics a/f computer" in your sig... Maybe you are running too lean... or too much boost for that plug, or both... If all your plugs are like that, take it as a red flag!

[genius]

Yea, I had the EXACT same coloration on mine after moving my MAF. So I stepped it down a notch and everything is fine. Most likely you are too lean. Are you boosting in 5th alot?

Also, I noticed that you are only boosting 8psi? I figured with all those mods you would have been a little more brave.

Anyways, your system isn't too hot like mine was before I upgraded the SMIC because you have a FMIC and if anything, it would be too cold.

I have to agree with FlyinMSP on this one, your map is probably too lean for your car.

[tallrd]

Thanks for the help guys. I appreciate it.

What would your responses be if I were to tell you that I often backfire from running too rich? Is it possible to be rich enough to backfire daily, but so lean as to make the plugs look like they do? I'm more inclinded to believe it's a temp related issue and not so much an A/F issue.

Thoughts?

p.s. DAWIV: I'm not sure which plugs those are, but I'll look later tonight.

[TurfBurn]

I'm on my second set of NGK PZFR6F-11's. Changed the oem plugs at 33,086. They looked normal and showed correct heat range and operating conditions.

Your plug shows that its too hot. Blistered white insulator. What plug number is that?

I don't see any blistering.. and they aren't TOO super hot... if they were the base of the plug threads will turn white as well... the fact is there is even some brown on the flat of the ground tip which is in and of itself an indication that these plugs are not really running all that hot or all that lean.

While these are showing slightly lean and hot, that could easily be just solely off a recent highway cruise as the car will run very lean and rather hot during that time... which is a whole different ball game than what happens in boost.

EDIT:Backfiring and popping is somewhat common if you have deleted at least one of the cats... I know you have the corksport exhaust... so I'd check to see how many other people are getting similar popping given the mods you have.

[TurfBurn]

I'll try and pull some plugs out of my car and post them for you as well.. I can tell you that my car never runs leaner than 14.8 unless I'm decelerating.. and in boost I'm under 12.2 AFR at all times... You'll see a similar pattern and appearance on my plugs I'll bet... and I'll bet that your level of white is from highway driving and so forth..

Also, keep in mind that a lot of the "plug charts" you see online are from distributor based vehicles and many times culled from carbed cars which never run as lean as the more modern EFI systems.

[genius]

Thanks for the help guys. I appreciate it.

What would your responses be if I were to tell you that I often backfire from running too rich? Is it possible to be rich enough to backfire daily, but so lean as to make the plugs look like they do? I'm more inclinded to believe it's a temp related issue and not so much an A/F issue.

Thoughts?

p.s. DAWIV: I'm not sure which plugs those are, but I'll look later tonight.

Rich at idle and lean under boost would be my first guess. My car does the same thing. When you are boosting, the air mixture is cleaning the plugs.

Do you have an FCD? Try driving for a day or two without boosting (if that is possible) and check them again. If they are sooty that is your problem.

Good luck!

[TurfBurn]

Yeah... I agree with genius... do that test and that'll help a lot. try to restrict to stop and go in town traffic too if you can.... interstate style driving will heat a plug a lot as well because you will sometimes lean out to about 16 or 17 AFR on the highway for fuel economy in many cars.

[tallrd]

Rich at idle and lean under boost would be my first guess. My car does the same thing. When you are boosting, the air mixture is cleaning the plugs.

Do you have an FCD? Try driving for a day or two without boosting (if that is possible) and check them again. If they are sooty that is your problem.

Good luck!

Please educated me on what an FCD is.

[TurfBurn]

Please educated me on what an FCD is.

A very dangerous toy for your motor... basically eliminates fuel cut by clamping voltage from the MAF... as the air input rises the voltage stays at a same peak... engine leans out... detonation starts... go too far.. go boom.. That's what an FCD is...

But a JandS has a similar feature except that a JandS will also pull timing and protect from detonation and then your motor and car will be fine.. and you'll see it light up like a christmas tree and know you need to back off.

[tallrd]

Although i can see there may be benefit to adding something more to my car, I really don't *want* to add anything more. I believe that my current setup has the components to make a wonderfully tuned car. I just need to educate myself a little on how to do it properly.

Should I:

A) get a dyno and go into the brain of the AFC unit to compensate a/f's there? If so, who out there can help guide me b/c DSM sure isn't helping me...

B) get new plugs, or

c) both, or

D) none of the obove.

[TurfBurn]

I'd say C... and I can tune the car if you have the software and will pay for the dyno time so we can read your AFR's...

[tallrd]

I'd say C... and I can tune the car if you have the software and will pay for the dyno time so we can read your AFR's...

I will *gladly* pay for dyno time if it meant I could end this seemingly never-ending battle to balance this car's tune. P.M. with your schedule for this coming week and maybe we could go to dynotuned performance or something.

Thanks a bazillion Steve (first)

[03.5MSP]

I have NGK zfr7f-11 gaped to .032. I installed them like 3 days ago and they seem to be working good. You guys think these are good plugs??

[TurfBurn]

those are extended reach.. keep in mind that they essentially advance your timing by a couple of degrees... they work well but they do make you more prone to detonation because of how they move the flame front deeper into the chamber.

[TurfBurn]

I will *gladly* pay for dyno time if it meant I could end this seemingly never-ending battle to balance this car's tune. P.M. with your schedule for this coming week and maybe we could go to dynotuned performance or something.

Thanks a bazillion Steve (first)

dynotuned is about 150 an hour on the dyno with AFR. Should take that or less really to do it... but otherwise get a wideband for 320 and we can just do it on the street and you'll really get a good feel for it overall... whatever direction you want to go basically.

I should be free any evening but Thursday next week.

[03.5MSP]

those are extended reach.. keep in mind that they essentially advance your timing by a couple of degrees... they work well but they do make you more prone to detonation because of how they move the flame front deeper into the chamber.

I thought the zfr7f-11 were a step colder plugs??

[TurfBurn]

well yes and no... they are a heat range step colder... but being extended reach they'll run as hot or hotter than a heat range 6 standard reach plug.

heat range is just how well the insulator will dissipate heat, doesn't mean anything about timing and combustion changes.

[03.5MSP]

well yes and no... they are a heat range step colder... but being extended reach they'll run as hot or hotter than a heat range 6 standard reach plug.

heat range is just how well the insulator will dissipate heat, doesn't mean anything about timing and combustion changes.


what does extended reach mean, sorry for newb question??

[TurfBurn]

the ground strap and the electrode tip protrude roughly 4-6mm further than your "standard" plug.. meaning they are about 4-6mm longer going away from the end of the threaded part of the plug.

[03.5MSP]

the ground strap and the electrode tip protrude roughly 4-6mm further than your "standard" plug.. meaning they are about 4-6mm longer going away from the end of the threaded part of the plug.


So if I gapped them to .032 (which I did) I should be OK??

Sorry "Tallrd" i didnt mean to threadjack.

[03.5MSP]

I just took a pic of mine today. They were in my car for about 3 days.
Do they look OK?? Plus im running techron and i hope that is not affecting them.

[genius]

I just took a pic of mine today. They were in my car for about 3 days.
Do they look OK?? Plus im running techron and i hope that is not affecting them.

They look good. There is a little soot around the first and second thread, which is slightly rich but the white is white:)

What you have to watch out for is a pepper effect on the white. Also, a lot of soot would indicate too rich or too cold. The tip that curves over (I forget what that is) is also clean and not charred.

[TurfBurn]

the curved tip is the "ground strap" according to a lot of places..

you are rich at idle (the threads) and the insulator is clean (the white) and you have some yellowing of the ground strap which it's early yet for it to indicate clearly.. but your plugs will end up looking like tallrd's in the end which in my opinion is a little hot and lean but likely "fine".

[tallrd]

dynotuned is about 150 an hour on the dyno with AFR. Should take that or less really to do it... but otherwise get a wideband for 320 and we can just do it on the street and you'll really get a good feel for it overall... whatever direction you want to go basically.

I should be free any evening but Thursday next week.

If I got a WB02, wouldn't I need an a/f gauge as well?

[TurfBurn]

most of the WBO2's like the PLX M-300 come with the gauge.

[03.5MSP]

the curved tip is the "ground strap" according to a lot of places..

you are rich at idle (the threads) and the insulator is clean (the white) and you have some yellowing of the ground strap which it's early yet for it to indicate clearly.. but your plugs will end up looking like tallrd's in the end which in my opinion is a little hot and lean but likely "fine".


So do you guys even recommend getting step colder plugs??
If yeah which ones would you get, to help prevent detonation. Im just trying to make the MSP safer.

[tallrd]

most of the WBO2's like the PLX M-300 come with the gauge.

dyno it is. Can they give me what I need to know without me having to purchase anything?

[TurfBurn]

Yeah.. you pay an extra 50 bucks for the wideband... but they put it in the tailpipe and it'll read everything we'd need to tune the DSM in tighter. I'll want to look at the DSM software some before we get on the dyno so I can find my way around, but it usually is a pretty easy bit.

[03.5MSP]

Which sparkplugs would you guys recommend to prevent detonation?