MAF relocated

[sniper9]

Hey, just thought i would let everyone know i moved my MAF to the pressure pipe on my hiboost fmic. Im running my greddy type-s open vent now and it sounds sick. So far the car runs smoother and the gas needle seems to move less haha. Ill see for sure in the next few days. The car idles much smoother and there is no stalling. Runs perfect. Only took about 30 minutes to do at the local shop also. Might take pics tommorow to show everyone. Later

[vxfilmer1000]

nice.......lets see the pics

[Captain KRM P5]

seems like more and more this is becoming the "free mod" of choice for msp owners...cool

[mspeed101]

I still need to do this to mine! If I can only get my hands on a fmic (evil)

[Brian MP5T]

Dude, I have had this on my car for three years. Has worked for me for that long.. Have a look by the extra injectors close to the Throttle Body..

http://www.msprotege.com/members/Brian%20MP5T/New%20Stuff%20For%20UL%20-%20%2827%29.jpg.jpg

[sweetlou69]

when u relocate the MAF is there anything special that needs to be done to the intake? like i have the injen is it just a matter of takin off the right side of the pipe and slappin the filter on the other half by where the MAF used to sit? or is there more to it?

[Brian MP5T]

You should look into where it goes, but it is quite simple as you said..

[RallyeRedSi]

Hey, just thought i would let everyone know i moved my MAF to the pressure pipe on my hiboost fmic. Im running my greddy type-s open vent now and it sounds sick. So far the car runs smoother and the gas needle seems to move less haha. Ill see for sure in the next few days. The car idles much smoother and there is no stalling. Runs perfect. Only took about 30 minutes to do at the local shop also. Might take pics tommorow to show everyone. Later

hey man i been wanting to do this for a awhile i got the hi boost kit too, which shop did you go to and how much

[peepsalot]

Good work. It is a nice trick for our cars that should have been done in the first place.

[NeverSober]

Just cut the pipes yourself. I used a handsaw with a metal cutting blade. Its so easy to do.......



Chris

[peepsalot]

I dremeled that ho since I didn't have a saw.

[Blue_Speed]

I dremeled that ho since I didn't have a saw.

which connection bit did you use. i was thinking about using my dremel for completing mine, but i didnt think they had any bits strong enough.

[peepsalot]

one of the hard cutting discs. They will cut through anything if you give them enough time, and have enough of them to wera through. Just wear saftey goggles and carry a few of the discs cause they have a tendency to shatter at fling bits at high speeds. (dark)

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00004UDH3.01-A2N6NO8W19JCUN._SCMZZZZZZZ_.jpg

[Blue_Speed]

o ok. i've used those before, and have a whole bunch of them that came with my kit. i used it once on metal before and experienced it shatter, so i didnt think they would be strong enough. thanks though for the tip. (thumb)

[peepsalot]

They come at least two different thicknesses, the wimpy ones won't cut it.

[hello2000]

I am very interested in doing this. (pics)

[Brian MP5T]

They come at least two different thicknesses, the wimpy ones won't cut it.

2.6 Seconds

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[Spooled]

Sawsall > all

[Spooled]

I prefer this, though:
http://www.compfused.com/directlink/154/

[MoJoeTCM]

the dremel does work....my buddy and i cut off a broken wheel stud with one..takes forever though...like peepslot said...just buy the more durable discs....a dremel tool is a must in any guys tool inventory....

[sniper9]

ill take pics tonight i need my girlfriends camera haha, yeah it took about a half hour to do, i had it done at TLC performance by a friend. If anyone in the area is interested like yellowspeed shoot me a pm and ill get some shop time for you if you want. Anyone can do it really though.

[MP3Architect]

bump for those pics. looks like ill be doing this in the next few days.

[genius]

http://www.msprotege.com/forum/showthread.php?t=105437

This has been discussed at length. Go to this thread, there you will find pics of my setup as well as a few others.

Hope this helps!

[MP3Architect]

2.6 Seconds

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I call Bullshit! cuz i did it today with that exact sawsall on my hiboost kit. my mom was passing by and i asked her to hold the pipe down so it didn't fly everywhere. i told her a guy on here said it would only take 2.6 seconds. about 20 seconds of my mom's arms about to fall off she goes "i think that guy was full of shit". :rolleyes:

[03MSP]

Man...I'm still in the stoneages...I cut my pipe with a hacksaw to do my MAF relocation. Yeah, it took like 25 minutes and my right arm got bigger than my leg, but eh I got it over with. Welcome to the world of smoothness!

[MP3Architect]

Man...I'm still in the stoneages...I cut my pipe with a hacksaw to do my MAF relocation. Yeah, it took like 25 minutes and my right arm got bigger than my leg, but eh I got it over with. Welcome to the world of smoothness!
yeah for some reason no one here in houston has done it yet. when my car was all f*ed up at a meet with 10 mazdaspeed guys hangin around it for several hours none of us could figure out how to make it stop stalling. i guess the others will be doing the same thing pretty soon.

[arlsmazdaspeed]

I just got my fittings in the mail to relocate the maf today. It took me about 15 min. tops to install and tighten everything up. Considering my mods i have already, during the test drive the car felt like it ran smoother throughout the powerband, but it could be in my head.... But it seems to drive better, even though it still fuel cuts when i'm in high boost (10 psi.) . But overall i'm happy with the results it seemed to have on my car.

[MoJoeTCM]

Hey when you relocate the maf with injen piping isnt their a temp sensor or something of that nature? Where should that be relocated since it is on the pipe leading to filter but after the MAF. Does this travel along with the MAF when it is relocated or does it remain between the turbo and filter. Speaking of filters, what would be the best replacement for our air filters? My intake filter is dirty as hell even after i wash it.

[sniper9]

Use the pipe u cut off to put on the injen where the MAF was and you still have a CAI and you wont need to relocate anything

[genius]

Hey when you relocate the maf with injen piping isnt their a temp sensor or something of that nature? Where should that be relocated since it is on the pipe leading to filter but after the MAF. Does this travel along with the MAF when it is relocated or does it remain between the turbo and filter. Speaking of filters, what would be the best replacement for our air filters? My intake filter is dirty as hell even after i wash it.

The IAT needs to stay in the same location. Just tuck it under the filter or where ever you can. Just don't try to get fancy and put it on the pressure side unless you know what you are doing.

[MoJoeTCM]

if you completely remove the right side of the pipe can you drill a hole before the filter and stick the IAT? before that? I could have sworn that thing is on the pipe i wanted to remove....

[UnNaturalinc]

I wish there was just a list of information on relocating the MAF. No questions, no ideas, no bad info... Just a list of solid facts of why and why not to do it on this specific vehicle.

[MoJoeTCM]

amen

[genius]

I wish there was just a list of information on relocating the MAF. No questions, no ideas, no bad info... Just a list of solid facts of why and why not to do it on this specific vehicle.

Well... I can probably do that... I can't really come up with a point paper on it or anything like that but here is the facts.

You MAF is located at the beginning of the chain of events. And beleive me if you follow the intake tract, there are quite a few joints and couplings before it gets to the throttle body. If anything in the chain goes arye, the intended fuel ratio would not be meant. Most of us have boost leaks. We just can't find them. If you lose air for any reason (via boost leak under a coupling or an atomospheric BOV), the ECU will not know that the air is lost. As a result, when the ECU checks the MAF at the beginning of the chain it has to assume that the air the MAF reported will make it to the engine. If the ECU wants a 11:1 ratio it mathematically determines how much of a "squirt" the injectors have to push. If the air is lost along the way, the ratio can drop to say a 10:1 which is rich. When you car hits a rich surge, you will lose power during that instance. If the ratio falls below 9.1, the car will stall due to too much gas and not enough oxygen. People have described this as hesitation.

By moving the MAF to just before the TB, you negate the effects of boost leaks and stalling effects of BOV's. If you have a leak of any kind it won't matter because all the MAF will see is the amount of air that passes it which convientently is right next to the engine so there can't be any air lost unless you forgot to tighten your last set of clamps. If you lose air due to boost leak before the MAF, your boost may fall, but the ratio would still be maintained by the ECU's origianl intent (whatever that is).

Now as a side note, yes there is a thing called "long term fuel trim". The ECU checks the O2 sensor to determine if the ratio is equal to the original intent. If over a long period of time it is not, then the ECU will add a "correction factor" to the injectors and try to stablize it. BUT if you only lose your fuel ratio for short bursts, the ECU will not make corrections because it is not long enough and frequent enough to warrent its attenion.

When you reset the ECU these fuel trim ajustments are lost and it defaults to the factory. THat is why it is important that any time you make mods to your car, you reset the ECU so it doesn't under compensate based on its long term calculations.

The only bad thing about this is that the A/F ratio is hit square on the nose. FOr most of us, that is what we want! BUT!, If you make mods to you car assuming that the car is "pig rich" because you saw a bunch of threads on here stating that the factory ECU is programmed that way, then when you move your MAF it could run leaner. A perfect example of these mods would be the FPR and the FCD. Those of you that don't know what these acronyms are, should not worry about it. If you do then you know who I am talking to:)

Finally, the MAF was never designed to run on the pressure side of the turbo. It could break because of this. It just hasn't happened to any one yet. There are two schools of thought on this one. One school I just mentioned, the other school says that that is bull shit because what comes out of the turbo had to come into the turbo in the same direction. THerefore, the MAF is subjected to the same torture no matter where you stick it.

I really hope this helps to clear things up and as always, you can PM me or continue to discuss this on here.

[UnNaturalinc]

That's awesome. :thumbs-up:

[byohndspeed]

also, if you happen to be out driving and blow a pipe off(with the maf relocated) you can still limp the car home for its repairs.

[genius]

also, if you happen to be out driving and blow a pipe off(with the maf relocated) you can still limp the car home for its repairs.

VERY TRUE!!!! I forgot to mention that thanks! It has already happened to me once. I was driving with a heavy foot in third and all of a sudden I it felt like I hit a brick wall.

My first thought was fuel cut. My second thought was WTF, it's warm out, my FCD should have worked! My third thought was damn that Joe P! Then I hit the throttle again and the car drove like an NA. It still drove fine just absolutely no boost with a massive whine. I pulled over and my 10th thought was correct, I blew a pipe off the IC. The thoughts between 4 and 9 were kinda hazy... mostly filled with incoherent cussing and frequent use of the fuck word.

Now before I moved the MAF I had blown a pipe once before with my home brew hardpipes. That really sucked. The car did the brick wall thing, then stalled and would not restart even in gear going 75. When it came to a stop, it would start for like 2 seconds then stall. Fortunatley, as any amatuer mechanic does, I carry a fully compliment of tools in the trunk to include a roll of duct tape and extra worm clamps. That day I just used duct tape and drove gently until I had to time to repair it.

Now if you are one of those nay sayers who keeps the MAF in the stock position, does not carry tools and then blows a pipe, one thing you can try is to disconnect the MAF from the harness. The car should try to run after a few attempts. But it will be in limp mode with virtually no power, PIG RICH, and you will get a CEL. The RPM's won't go above 3000 and if you try the car will stall. This will atleast get you home or to one of us:) Point being, sometimes no MAF signal at all is better than a faulty one.

[Chilledboost]

i was worried about putting my stock maf sensor under pressure so a guy i work with took his stock maf sensor off his LS1 powered ws6 and wired it in to my harness and it runs like a dream its alot better then the stock one and it eliminated the hesitation

[genius]

i was worried about putting my stock maf sensor under pressure so a guy i work with took his stock maf sensor off his LS1 powered ws6 and wired it in to my harness and it runs like a dream its alot better then the stock one and it eliminated the hesitation

Told you! J/K! :) LS1 MAF, FS-ZE cam? These mods I haven't seen. What does that cam do for you?

[wicked]

2.6 Seconds

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FUK THE SAWZALL!!!!!!!!!!
it's ll about a chop saw,or if you want portable...............

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c244/nailsbycarolinenewman/hmgdToolsBenchtopBand_SawsPortableR.jpg


I have had mine like this for a LONG time,people just to aurgue with me so much over it,saying how bad it was.


heard nothing but good so far.


http://i28.phdotobucket.com/albums/c244/nailsbycarolinenewman/hmgdToolsBenchtopBand_SawsPortableR.jpg

[MoJoeTCM]

well, the only disadvantage would be cutting the diameter of the pipe w/ your tool....it can only cut so much....

[wicked]

well, the only disadvantage would be cutting the diameter of the pipe w/ your tool....it can only cut so much....

you talking to me?

I use this all the time on intercooler pipe,look in my sig,I built the intercooler piping,and the intercooler.

[genius]

well, the only disadvantage would be cutting the diameter of the pipe w/ your tool....it can only cut so much....

I use a dremel on high speed with a diamond cutter blade.

[Blitzd]

This thread might be dead but thought this might be good info. Last night I did my cheap mods install.

1. Replaced PCV valve with Mellinia PCV, part # JE26-13-890, $13.50 from Mazda
2. Removed Diffuser form MAF.
3. Moved MAF to TB side
4. Now running open BOV, No more Turkey just WOOOSHHH
This Morning was the first drive and Holy Crap! Its not in my head, this car is faster. Not sure why though. Throttle response is better and power is better from about 2300 on up. Just drives 100% different. I will try and get pics soon of the move. Looks good. The whole project probably took 15 min.
Easy mod.

[arlsmazdaspeed]

what diffuser did you move?

[Blitzd]

what diffuser did you move?

Didn't move it just REMOVED it. (thumb) The one in the MAF

[jsahyoun]

When you say you are runnig the BOV open vent are u stil using a BPV?

[Blitzd]

When you say you are runnig the BOV open vent are u stil using a BPV?

No, Its just venting to open air. Is that bad?

[MP3Architect]

No, Its just venting to open air. Is that bad?
thats what im running

[Blitzd]

thats what im running

Its odd that it Wooshes and Turkeys, but just a little bit of the Turkey.

[snowblazin]

Subbing for later use.

[MP3Architect]

well...........mine wistles. but i ONLY get turkey if i shift without going into boost while revving a lil high. otherwise i NEVER get turkey. im running on a hiboost fmic at 8lbs with a greddy type-s bov and a injen cai converted to short ram

[Blitzd]

well...........mine wistles. but i ONLY get turkey if i shift without going into boost while revving a lil high. otherwise i NEVER get turkey. im running on a hiboost fmic at 8lbs with a greddy type-s bov and a injen cai converted to short ram

I have just last night done the mod so I am still feeling it out. I have a Hiboost FMIC and did the CAI convert also. (worried about the water) But I swear I have more low end torque with the Short ram.

[MP3Architect]

I have just last night done the mod so I am still feeling it out. I have a Hiboost FMIC and did the CAI convert also. (worried about the water) But I swear I have more low end torque with the Short ram.
well your getting the air quicker

[armando_026]

This thread might be dead but thought this might be good info. Last night I did my cheap mods install.

1. Replaced PCV valve with Mellinia PCV, part # JE26-13-890, $13.50 from Mazda
2. Removed Diffuser form MAF.
3. Moved MAF to TB side
4. Now running open BOV, No more Turkey just WOOOSHHH
This Morning was the first drive and Holy Crap! Its not in my head, this car is faster. Not sure why though. Throttle response is better and power is better from about 2300 on up. Just drives 100% different. I will try and get pics soon of the move. Looks good. The whole project probably took 15 min.
Easy mod.

i'm kinda new to all this, and have some questions

what does replacing the pcv do?
What diffuser?
What do you mean "open bov"

[Velocifero]

1. replacing the pcv is just a maintence thing, not sure if the one that he listed is better or what, I am guessing it is less prone to gumming up or something?
2. inside your mass air flow sensor (MAF) has a waffle like pattern diffuser inside it, he removed it, creates less turbulence and unrestricts a small amount of flow, that air is gonna get rushed through the turbo anyways
3. open BOV means his Blow Off Valve (BOV) is vented to the atmosphere under the hood, it doesnt recirculate the air into the intake like the stock By Pass Valve (BPV) does

[Brian MP5T]

I call Bullshit! cuz i did it today with that exact sawsall on my hiboost kit. my mom was passing by and i asked her to hold the pipe down so it didn't fly everywhere. i told her a guy on here said it would only take 2.6 seconds. about 20 seconds of my mom's arms about to fall off she goes "i think that guy was full of shit". :rolleyes:

(first)

[tiwing]

has anyone done this with a wideband installed and monitored the AF? I'm interested to hear the results. The reason I"ve been hesitating from doing this mod is that the MAF, as I undertand it, measures airflow at ATMOSHPERIC pressure. The hot pipe is pressurized so wouldn't the MAF readings be off? Also, that little dangly thing looks pretty light weight inside the MAF, I can't believe no one has had problems with it breaking.

[peepsalot]

I have a wideband, and I was still plenty rich after doing this mod. The dangly thing is delicate, but pressure comes from all sides, so the forces balance out. It's not really putting stress on it the same way as poking it with your finger would.

[tiwing]

OK cool. how far from the TB does it have to be to minimize the reverse pressure wave hitting it from the TB slamming shut on gear change or rapid deceleration?

[byohndspeed]

mine is as close as it could be. i have a 90* elbow that goes from the tb to the maf with nothing in between.

[Blitzd]

mine is as close as it could be. i have a 90* elbow that goes from the tb to the maf with nothing in between.

Ok so now I get to ask a question. what is an IAT? oh and had a wierd thing happen. The car as I reported was running very fast but I didn't raise the boost. I had forgotten to reset the ECU so I did that Sunday. After the reset the car is slow again. I am confused, and mad..... But I am not mad becuase I am confused. (Caboose Red vs. Blue) Any Ideas?

[MP3Architect]

not sure what happened with yours. but I just wanted to add that I've noticed since the MAF relocation Im getting ~310 miles per tank as opposed to ~285 that I was getting before. So that makes me happy.

[Blitzd]

not sure what happened with yours. but I just wanted to add that I've noticed since the MAF relocation Im getting ~310 miles per tank as opposed to ~285 that I was getting before. So that makes me happy.

Yes that would make me happy to

[peepsalot]

Ok so now I get to ask a question. what is an IAT? oh and had a wierd thing happen. The car as I reported was running very fast but I didn't raise the boost. I had forgotten to reset the ECU so I did that Sunday. After the reset the car is slow again. I am confused, and mad..... But I am not mad becuase I am confused. (Caboose Red vs. Blue) Any Ideas?
IAT = Intake Air Temperature sensor.
Did the outside air temp change much from between when it felt faster to when it felt slower? Or maybe your IC was heatsoaked if it's stock?

[Blitzd]

IAT = Intake Air Temperature sensor.
Did the outside air temp change much from between when it felt faster to when it felt slower? Or maybe your IC was heatsoaked if it's stock?

Colder Maybe but not enought to have made that big of a difference. i have a Hiboost FMIC. I want cams so bad, I had them in my last MSP and it helped a lot. I have heard that were not good for the car in the long run though.

[AFaceInTheCrowd]

this is done to my MAM fmic. good shit, ths mod. really helped smooth out the whole rpm band. yea, it's pretty fast too.

[Matrix]

Ok so now I get to ask a question. what is an IAT? oh and had a wierd thing happen. The car as I reported was running very fast but I didn't raise the boost. I had forgotten to reset the ECU so I did that Sunday. After the reset the car is slow again. I am confused, and mad..... But I am not mad becuase I am confused. (Caboose Red vs. Blue) Any Ideas?

How did you reset the ECU? I reset mine recently and it should not have made the car any slower at all. Faster, perhaps, but not slower.

[Blitzd]

How did you reset the ECU? I reset mine recently and it should not have made the car any slower at all. Faster, perhaps, but not slower.

Just unhooked the battery for about 2 hours. It really does feel different. Just got back from lunch and still slower but seems to be coming back. Very odd. I will give it a couple of days and see. I just need more HP, wish there was a relatively cheap way to gain some power.

[SpeedBeaver]

http://www.msprotege.com/forum/showthread.php?t=105148
Here you go.

[Blitzd]

http://www.msprotege.com/forum/showthread.php?t=105148
Here you go.

Yeah just worried about messing up the motor. Although I would think that
8-9 should be fine. Might try it tonight. Thanks

[Velocifero]

Yeah just worried about messing up the motor. Although I would think that
8-9 should be fine. Might try it tonight. Thanks
just to share... I have done the spring mod too, and had no problems what so ever and it has been on there a while now. IMO it is safer than a manual boost controller and if the spring fails, you just return back to stock boost.

[Blitzd]

just to share... I have done the spring mod too, and had no problems what so ever and it has been on there a while now. IMO it is safer than a manual boost controller and if the spring fails, you just return back to stock boost.

Thanks for the back-up. I did it last night and it is working great. I just had a new turbo put on the car and when they put all of the hoses back on 2 of them were not clamped down all of the way. I found them this morning about 6:45 on an off ramp on the interstate. Guess the extra boost pushed them loose. No harm though just got my handy tool kit outa the trunk and fixed it. Drives great good power. Thx again

[TheSuperhuman]

hey does anyone have a pic of the MAF relocation on an MSP?

[SpeedBeaver]

http://www.msprotege.com/forum/showthread.php?t=105437 see first post

[Brian MP5T]

http://img25.echo.cx/img25/5073/dscn0519medium9sa.jpg

[Brian MP5T]

http://www.msprotege.com/members/Brian%20MP5T/New%20Stuff%20For%20UL%20-%20%2827%29.jpg.jpg

[MP3Architect]

http://img25.echo.cx/img25/5073/dscn0519medium9sa.jpg
exactly what my setup looks like

[genius]

hey does anyone have a pic of the MAF relocation on an MSP?

Here

[Brian MP5T]

Ok, there must have been a better way to wire that Rat's Nest Up Magn'

[TheSuperhuman]

my intake is setup a little differently than that, the maf sensor is located right after the intake cone, is that the same how everyone has or is the setup on the car from the link totally different

[Mutmatt]

stock? or what are u asking? that pic looks almost like the stock intake piping... with a cone filter. plz clarify your ? and i will check back

[byohndspeed]

wow, i didnt have to extend any wires for my maf. if you cut back the covering on the wires, you can get the plug over where you need it.

[peepsalot]

^^^ (yes)

[TheSuperhuman]

yeah is the setup from the car in the picture setup similiar or was some piping routed differently, i know these seem like dumb questions but ive never dealt with these motors before

[Brian MP5T]

Similar

Google Immage Mazdaspeed Engine

[ca_deal1]

I just relocated my MAF today, let me tell you something, its great!!! (so far).
But I havent turn on my boost controller yet, so do know what kind of difference would it do at 10psi. But so far I can say, the car runs smooth... Before I always get WOT at 3500rpm.... after relocated, it didnt happen again(so far). I will post some picture soon.

This is how much I spend:
3 coupers and clamps $21.00
have a muffler shop cut the pipe(4 cuts) $5.00
total cost $26+your time
have your MSP runs better= priceless

[Brian MP5T]

Don't forget the car will run richer with the MAF there.

Reset the ECU if you notice that it's running very rich.

[Notorious_V.I.C]

Don't forget the car will run richer with the MAF there.

Reset the ECU if you notice that it's running very rich.

So won't that waste more gas, running rich? If you reset the battery then the assumption would be it fixes it correcT??

[Brian MP5T]

No, The MAF was made to regester ambient air pressure. It measures the Mass (Weight) of the air. If there is more pressure going through it under boost, there will be more Atoms of "Everything" even Oxygen. The ECU will learn this curve and adjust because the car will have a tendency to run with an inadequate ammount of fuel under boost.

Basically, it costs a bit more, who cares. What's another $2.00 a week when you think that the car is basically $27,000.. ???

[ca_deal1]

I did a few 10psi run today, its doing pretty good. One time pipe came loss, but I was able to get home because the MAF was still getting reading.
Over all, I can say the car feels pretty good. I am still adjusting it, will post picture when I am done.

[genius]

wow, i didnt have to extend any wires for my maf. if you cut back the covering on the wires, you can get the plug over where you need it.

I had to extend mine. The harness was a little tight for comfort... That motor doesn't move around a lot unless you are using stiffer mounts.

[SpeedBeaver]

Just to be sure I want somebody to confirm that:

Turbo outlet: 2"
SMIC inlet: 2"
SMIC outlet: 2"
MAF: 2.75"
TB: 2.75"

are these mesures right?

[genius]

No, The MAF was made to regester ambient air pressure. It measures the Mass (Weight) of the air. If there is more pressure going through it under boost, there will be more Atoms of "Everything" even Oxygen. The ECU will learn this curve and adjust because the car will have a tendency to run with an inadequate ammount of fuel under boost.

Basically, it costs a bit more, who cares. What's another $2.00 a week when you think that the car is basically $27,000.. ???

I don't know you but you could quite possibly possess wisdom that no one on here can ever hope to achieve... or you could be wrong LOL!!!!

I respect your opinion but...

We may have to agree to disagree on this one but I believe that whatever comes out of the turbo had to come in and I also believe that matter can't be created so... there wouldn't be more atoms after the turbo.

And I ran this setup after I immediately reset the ECU for about 15,000 miles without the ECU ever learning around this. One thing you guys need to remember when it comes to the ECU learn-around ideal is that the ECU isn't as smart as some of us give it credit for.

In order for the ECU to learn anything, the conditions have to be consistant for long periods of time. It's kind of like training a dog... it poops on the floor, you rub its nose in it and kick it outside with a size 12. But if you don't rub its nose in it EVERYTIME it shits, then it doesn't learn.

In theory, it honestly shouldn't matter where you put the MAF. If you can completely seal your induction system the car should run the same. The reason the MAF is working better in some cars is because people are experiencing boost leaks from the stock clamps or their silicone couplings. Making your connections air tight is harder than you think.

Another reason for moving the MAF is to negate the stalling effects of an atomspheric BOV.

[genius]

Just to be sure I want somebody to confirm that:

Turbo outlet: 2"
SMIC inlet: 2"
SMIC outlet: 2"
MAF: 2.75"
TB: 2.75"

are these mesures right?

I can confirm without a doubt the first 4. But I think the TB is 2.5 but, someone else needs to jump in on this one.

[Brian MP5T]

I don't know you but you could quite possibly possess wisdom that no one on here can ever hope to achieve... or you could be wrong LOL!!!!

I respect your opinion but...


The BOV is the only reason to move the MAF.

Ok, Lets make thins really simple.

The MAF measures the Flow passing throung it's calibrated opening to make a calculation of how much air is passing through.

If it's calibrated to work at ambient pressure and you decide to run twice the pressure (15psi) through it, it will only see some of the increase as velocity will go up as well, however their molecules are also packed tighter than ambient, ergo, many will not be metered under load. This will lean out the ECU. The O2 will regester Lean and compenste. Learning this "loop" is what I fear.

[Swerny]

Shameless plug here, but if anyone wants to run this setup, I have these for sale with a BOV:
http://www.msprotege.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123625541

[Notorious_V.I.C]

So reading from this and reading Brian MP5T's last post it seems like it only wourth it to do this if the car stalls because of the BOV. Not my question is from that set-up i am looking at my car will stall unless i either
1) get a BPV so it doesn't
2)relocate MAF

If I relocate the MAF where does the air Temp sensor go? I just don't like the idea of it dangling around. Plus with this stated
"If it's calibrated to work at ambient pressure and you decide to run twice the pressure (15psi) through it, it will only see some of the increase as velocity will go up as well, however their molecules are also packed tighter than ambient, ergo, many will not be metered under load. This will lean out the ECU. The O2 will regester Lean and compenste. Learning this "loop" is what I fear."

Makes me think twice of doing this or not. Either spend a little or 100 for a BPV or relocate MAF, plus what if the MAF get "destroyed", where can you get them and how much do these things cost?

[Notorious_V.I.C]

bump...for answer

[AuburnMSPfreak]

i have no i dea about the pricing but i do know that there are some ppl who have run this setup (maf on cold pipe) with open vent fine for over a year. so far there is no proof of this change hurting the car. also, if you have ems, then it really wouldn't matter because you would be controlling the afr yourself. so... in my opinion i would do it. i am going to when i get my harpipes (if i get my hardpipes). that;s just my .02

[Bala]

I am thinking about the best placement for the air temp sensor as well (anyone?). My plan is to cut a section of tubing out of my Perrin cold pipe about 12" upstream from the BOV and mount my MAF here. The cut out section of pipe will then fill the gap left in my Injen Intake. I'll be running an MPI with extra injectors so I need to mount these before the TB as well. Soo ... air temp sensor in Intake, loose or somehow mounted in cold pipe (yikes, I'm thinking boost leak issues)?

[peepsalot]

So reading from this and reading Brian MP5T's last post it seems like it only wourth it to do this if the car stalls because of the BOV. Not my question is from that set-up i am looking at my car will stall unless i either
1) get a BPV so it doesn't
2)relocate MAF

If I relocate the MAF where does the air Temp sensor go? I just don't like the idea of it dangling around. Plus with this stated
"If it's calibrated to work at ambient pressure and you decide to run twice the pressure (15psi) through it, it will only see some of the increase as velocity will go up as well, however their molecules are also packed tighter than ambient, ergo, many will not be metered under load. This will lean out the ECU. The O2 will regester Lean and compenste. Learning this "loop" is what I fear."

Makes me think twice of doing this or not. Either spend a little or 100 for a BPV or relocate MAF, plus what if the MAF get "destroyed", where can you get them and how much do these things cost?
I got a spare MAF with a lifetime warranty from al local junkyard I found on www.car-part.com (http://www.car-part.com) . I think it cost me $65. As far as the IAT, if you don't want it dangling around, then just find a way to mount it somewhere near your air filter. With zip ties or whatever.

I have a wideband and relocating the MAF did not lean me out with only the stock ECU. AFAIK, the MAF is a hot-wire type, which means it heats a thin wire to a certain degree and sees how much cooling effect the airflow has on it. Denser air will have a greater cooling effect, so I think the added pressure is mostly accounted for in that sensor. But since the IAT will not be seeing the same temps as the MAF, it could theoretically skew the calculations. In the end, it's up to you if you think it's worth it. Many people have done it and none have had any problems from what I've seen.

[genius]

So reading from this and reading Brian MP5T's last post it seems like it only wourth it to do this if the car stalls because of the BOV. Not my question is from that set-up i am looking at my car will stall unless i either
1) get a BPV so it doesn't
2)relocate MAF

If I relocate the MAF where does the air Temp sensor go? I just don't like the idea of it dangling around. Plus with this stated
"If it's calibrated to work at ambient pressure and you decide to run twice the pressure (15psi) through it, it will only see some of the increase as velocity will go up as well, however their molecules are also packed tighter than ambient, ergo, many will not be metered under load. This will lean out the ECU. The O2 will regester Lean and compenste. Learning this "loop" is what I fear."

Makes me think twice of doing this or not. Either spend a little or 100 for a BPV or relocate MAF, plus what if the MAF get "destroyed", where can you get them and how much do these things cost?

When I relocated the MAF, it leaned a little but that was in comparison to the stock position and the reason was because of boost leaks. Basically it leaned it for the greater good but it wasn't too lean at all. Also if you compare the AFC maps between the one I have posted and the stocksuper map, the corrections are truely not that dramatic.

Several people have their MAF relocated and none have reported any problems that I am aware of.

I have been running this setup for atleasat 15000 and it was by far the best thing I ever did before I bought the AFC.

[genius]

I am thinking about the best placement for the air temp sensor as well (anyone?). My plan is to cut a section of tubing out of my Perrin cold pipe about 12" upstream from the BOV and mount my MAF here. The cut out section of pipe will then fill the gap left in my Injen Intake. I'll be running an MPI with extra injectors so I need to mount these before the TB as well. Soo ... air temp sensor in Intake, loose or somehow mounted in cold pipe (yikes, I'm thinking boost leak issues)?

I have been on these forums for several years, and although I like you guys a lot, sometimes we quibble over the small stuff LOL!!!

IAT's have always been proported to be this miracle secret. I remember when I had my first car back in 1997; people were taking the IAT and moving it to their grills on thier NA cars and thought that they were gaining horsepower! I admitted, I tried it too:( All an IAT does is provide an insignificant input the the ECU. The ECU uses the IAT in conjunction with the EGR and the ECT to determine whether or not it needs to pull or advance timing. Generally, the IAT provides the most impact during starting. The ECU will assume that it is a cold start and advance the timing if the IAT and the ECT are within 15 degrees F of each other. After the ECU deetermines that the car is warmed up it relys mostly on the ECT and EGR. The result of the IAT is usually rather miniscule but if you disconnect it, the ECU gets really pissed.

Note: IAT locations are like Brittney Spears' singing career; it just doesn't matter!

Place it somewhere in the intake tract. Best place is to tuck it under the filter. Don't put it after the turbo. You will have to take extra precautions to ensure that there are no boost leaks, and even if you do the extra work of ensuring that you have a good seal; in the end... see note above.

[jlindbo]

I have a wideband and relocating the MAF did not lean me out with only the stock ECU. AFAIK, the MAF is a hot-wire type, which means it heats a thin wire to a certain degree and sees how much cooling effect the airflow has on it. Denser air will have a greater cooling effect, so I think the added pressure is mostly accounted for in that sensor. But since the IAT will not be seeing the same temps as the MAF, it could theoretically skew the calculations. In the end, it's up to you if you think it's worth it. Many people have done it and none have had any problems from what I've seen.


Bingo, the density of the air is not going to change how the MAF registers the volume as severely as described above. It really comes down to the temp difference between the air when the IAT messured it and to when the MAF registers the air.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_airflow_sensor

[Bala]

I have been on these forums for several years, and although I like you guys a lot, sometimes we quibble over the small stuff LOL!!!

IAT's have always been proported to be this miracle secret. I remember when I had my first car back in 1997; people were taking the IAT and moving it to their grills on thier NA cars and thought that they were gaining horsepower! I admitted, I tried it too:( All an IAT does is provide an insignificant input the the ECU. The ECU uses the IAT in conjunction with the EGR and the ECT to determine whether or not it needs to pull or advance timing. Generally, the IAT provides the most impact during starting. The ECU will assume that it is a cold start and advance the timing if the IAT and the ECT are within 15 degrees F of each other. After the ECU deetermines that the car is warmed up it relys mostly on the ECT and EGR. The result of the IAT is usually rather miniscule but if you disconnect it, the ECU gets really pissed.

Note: IAT locations are like Brittney Spears' singing career; it just doesn't matter!

Place it somewhere in the intake tract. Best place is to tuck it under the filter. Don't put it after the turbo. You will have to take extra precautions to ensure that there are no boost leaks, and even if you do the extra work of ensuring that you have a good seal; in the end... see note above.

Thanks! This helps me determine what I'll do - which is leave the IAT in the spot designed for it in the Injen intake.

[Blitzd]

Mine is in my filter. I made a hole for it to mount in it

[genius]

Bingo, the density of the air is not going to change how the MAF registers the volume as severely as described above. It really comes down to the temp difference between the air when the IAT messured it and to when the MAF registers the air.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_airflow_sensor

Me and Brian went back and forth on this one and although he made some good points; your thoughts are about the same as mine.

[jlindbo]

I am suprised keeping the IAT on the intake is not causing more problems for people. Has anybody moved it along with the MAF to the charge pipe? As far as the density is concerned, the MAF deals with different air densities under normal operation. Alltitude, ambient temperature, etc will change the air density. Also consider that the air densities would fluctuate at the stock location anyway so ...

[Brian MP5T]

bump...for answer

Three years and running strong..

[genius]

I am suprised keeping the IAT on the intake is not causing more problems for people. Has anybody moved it along with the MAF to the charge pipe? As far as the density is concerned, the MAF deals with different air densities under normal operation. Alltitude, ambient temperature, etc will change the air density. Also consider that the air densities would fluctuate at the stock location anyway so ...

Like I said towards the bottom of this thread.... The IAT location is like Brittney Spears' singing career; it just doesn't matter.

The ECU has very little regard to the IAT readings except during a cold start. Even if you move it to a colder location, the ECU might advance timing but after a few hundred miles of seeing the ECT and the IAT consistantly disagree, the ECU would just learn around it anyways.

Also, one quick comment about air density; density is essentially, air pressure divided by temperature (with a few other constants factored in). In order to have any real impact on density, at X altitude, the temperature would have to fluctuate by more than about ~15 degrees C.

The only device that is affected by changes in density is the MAF. The ECU doesn't know or care about density, but if the air is denser it will cause the MAF to produce a higher count to the ECU. This in turn will increase fuel injector time but does not affect timing.

My point is that the ECU doesn't make air density calulations at all; it isn't as smart as some of us give it credit for LOL! The IAT is not affected by density only heat and its input has very little impact on drivability.

[byohndspeed]

i disagree with the IAT not doing much. i put mine to the cold side charge pipe and noticed a huge change. the engine was much smoother and it pulled harder on the bottom end.

[genius]

i disagree with the IAT not doing much. i put mine to the cold side charge pipe and noticed a huge change. the engine was much smoother and it pulled harder on the bottom end.

I bet if you put it on the dyno, there wouldn't be much of a difference. Our ass dynos have been known to be wrong. LOL!

How cold is your cold pipe? I mean seriously, I know we have intercoolers, but the cold pipe is still a little warm. Mine is actually kinda hot.

The only reason I can see for it working on the bottom end is that the ECU is advancing the timing until the IAT starts seeing the heated air from the turbo. Have you read your spark plugs lately? Too much advanced timing over long periods of time is not good.

I am happy you are happy; but still, it just can't be worth it. I bet if you hung it out next to your grill on the bumper you would get the same results...

[jlindbo]

Like I said towards the bottom of this thread.... The IAT location is like Brittney Spears' singing career; it just doesn't matter.

The ECU has very little regard to the IAT readings except during a cold start. Even if you move it to a colder location, the ECU might advance timing but after a few hundred miles of seeing the ECT and the IAT consistantly disagree, the ECU would just learn around it anyways.


I am pretty sure the MAF would always use the IAT to determine what the air temp is so that the cooling effect it should have can be determined. A lot of the time they are the same unit. It would seem to me seperating them and feeding the MAF air that is much warmer than the IAT measured would bugger things up way more than density differences.



Also, one quick comment about air density; density is essentially, air pressure divided by temperature (with a few other constants factored in). In order to have any real impact on density, at X altitude, the temperature would have to fluctuate by more than about ~15 degrees C.


Right, All I was saying is that there are density flucuations during normal operation, it is not measuing air at atmospheric pressue and even if it was that pressure can change given elavation, air temp etc.


The only device that is affected by changes in density is the MAF. The ECU doesn't know or care about density, but if the air is denser it will cause the MAF to produce a higher count to the ECU. This in turn will increase fuel injector time but does not affect timing.

My point is that the ECU doesn't make air density calulations at all; it isn't as smart as some of us give it credit for LOL! The IAT is not affected by density only heat and its input has very little impact on drivability.

All I am saying is that though moving the MAF puts it in an air density range that it was not specifly designed to run at, that it is not a major issue as the cooling properties of the denser air will still cause the MAF to register a proper weight.

[byohndspeed]

my cold pipe is hardly ever warm. i not saying that i got alot of hp from it. the biggest thing i noticed was the engine was just alot smoother. as for beeing wourth it, i have about $3 in parts and about 30 minutes in time. as for my plugs, i just changed them and they looked good.

[genius]

my cold pipe is hardly ever warm. i not saying that i got alot of hp from it. the biggest thing i noticed was the engine was just alot smoother. as for beeing wourth it, i have about $3 in parts and about 30 minutes in time. as for my plugs, i just changed them and they looked good.

Man; I need to wrap my pipe or something; mine gets kinda hot.

[genius]

I am pretty sure the MAF would always use the IAT to determine what the air temp is so that the cooling effect it should have can be determined. A lot of the time they are the same unit. It would seem to me seperating them and feeding the MAF air that is much warmer than the IAT measured would bugger things up way more than density differences.


As always; I respect everyone's inputs and all of your points are duly noted... except this one LOL!

Truthfully; I can answer this without a shadow of doubt. Although the IAT and MAF sensors are usually located in the same house and temperature does have some effect on the MAF and although in the MSP, the IAT and MAF share the same wiring harness... they are not related for this make and model.

For those members that don't know; allow me to shed some light...

There are MAFs out there that do accept an input from the IAT by receiving an input from the IAT and then use that voltage to counter-act the MAF sensor reading but Mazda was not that intelligent.

There are also MAFs out there that have a heated wire next to an ambient temp wire and the MAF calculates the difference between the two and sends the composite signal, but Mazda wasn't keen on that one either.

The MSP MAF is the lowest ranking of the bunch. It uses a filament that is heated to a constant 200 F (hence the term hot-wire). When air passes over the wire, it cools down and then draws more current to reheat back to 200. It can respond to temperature changes and re-stablize the wire temp in less than 5 milli seconds. The MAF then sends a signal back to the ECU ranging from .1 to 5V DC which is a mirror slope of the current draw on the filiment. (As the filiment draws more current to stablize the 200 degree mark, the MAF will produce a voltage climbing towards 5V). The ECU uses this voltage to directly determine injector squirt time.

The MAF has 2 inputs and one output. One ground, one 12 V input and one 5 V out. The 5 V out goes to pin 88 on the ECU. The IAT has one input (power) and one output that goes to pin 39. The ECU uses pin 39 mostly during startup and compares that to the coolant temp to see if the car is on a cold start or warm start. During normal driving, it checks the IAT to determine if the timing needs correction. Generally; if the coolant temp is within normal parameters, the ECU shouldn't make an major moves unless the IAT is really out there in comparison.

I hope this info helps other members who are reading have a better understanding of how these things work, and after a quick scan through the list on this thread, I have read and spoken to most of you before and I highly regard all of your opinions and comments.

[peepsalot]

I know the MAF doesn't take input directly from the IAT, but how are you so sure that the ECU does not use both MAF and IAT in it's air/fuel calculations, without knowing exactly how it was programmed?

And are you sure the hot wire only goes to 200 F? That seems kinda low. I bet you could get temps over that with a heatsoaked stock intercooler and some upped boost. Ideal gas law says temps would be 427 F(pre-intercooler) at 10psi on a 90 F summer day. I wonder what the fuck happens when the MAF sees the wire getting hotter than 200 F without aplying any current.
That 427 F is even assuming the turbo is 100% efficient, which it's not, so temps would be higher...

[jlindbo]

Truthfully; I can answer this without a shadow of doubt. Although the IAT and MAF sensors are usually located in the same house and temperature does have some effect on the MAF and although in the MSP, the IAT and MAF share the same wiring harness... they are not related for this make and model.

Cool beans, that explination makes sense. I was wondering how everybody was not having issues with their IAT placement. Makes my life easier ;P

[jlindbo]

And are you sure the hot wire only goes to 200 F? That seems kinda low. I bet you could get temps over that with a heatsoaked stock intercooler and some upped boost. Ideal gas law says temps would be 427 F(pre-intercooler) at 10psi on a 90 F summer day. I wonder what the fuck happens when the MAF sees the wire getting hotter than 200 F without aplying any current.
That 427 F is even assuming the turbo is 100% efficient, which it's not, so temps would be higher...

Not so sure on the 427 F figure. Without 'actually' doing the math and taking the loser aproach via http://www.stealth316.com/2-turbotemp.htm (Funny thing is I am a math major ;P), It would be in the ball park of 240 - 290 given an average operating enviroment pre IC with a moderatly efficiant compressor. Even if your IC had a really crappy efficiancy (Anything above 40%) the temps would be under 200F. I also would guess the stock piping would reach its deflection point before 427 F though (I have nothing to back that up other than a general idea of the materials) and lots up people run 8-9 psi on the stock setup (Springing the WG actuator or a MBC). Even if it was 427 F, a IC with an efficiancy similar to the kits we are using would get temps down below 200 F

[genius]

I know the MAF doesn't take input directly from the IAT, but how are you so sure that the ECU does not use both MAF and IAT in it's air/fuel calculations, without knowing exactly how it was programmed?

And are you sure the hot wire only goes to 200 F? That seems kinda low. I bet you could get temps over that with a heatsoaked stock intercooler and some upped boost. Ideal gas law says temps would be 427 F(pre-intercooler) at 10psi on a 90 F summer day. I wonder what the fuck happens when the MAF sees the wire getting hotter than 200 F without aplying any current.
That 427 F is even assuming the turbo is 100% efficient, which it's not, so temps would be higher...

I might be off on teh 200 F... it has been a while since I have ever done research to that depth, but I think I am right on that.

The ECU is a standard Ford computer. Their architecture is pretty much the same across the board. Now fair warning, my memory is really sketchy on this one... Fuel control is based on engine load vs RPM. Load is based on air flow vs. ECT vs. pulse width base factor. Base factor is based on avg. O2 vs. EGT this is where the learning comes into play.

Now could Mazda have circumvented this? Sure. But we will never be able to find out since the firmware is encrypted. But we do know that the DSM Convert SS AFC works. And that does not intercept the IAT.

Consider how little thought was placed in building the car with the spongy engine mounts and bushings, plastic piping and an intercooler mounted right next to the radiator, I just can't imagine that they would have placed very much emphasis on adding an additional table just for the IAT to control fuel injection.

My 2 c.

[peepsalot]

Not so sure on the 427 F figure. Without 'actually' doing the math and taking the loser aproach via http://www.stealth316.com/2-turbotemp.htm (Funny thing is I am a math major ;P), It would be in the ball park of 240 - 290 given an average operating enviroment pre IC with a moderatly efficiant compressor. Even if your IC had a really crappy efficiancy (Anything above 40%) the temps would be under 200F. I also would guess the stock piping would reach its deflection point before 427 F though (I have nothing to back that up other than a general idea of the materials) and lots up people run 8-9 psi on the stock setup (Springing the WG actuator or a MBC). Even if it was 427 F, a IC with an efficiancy similar to the kits we are using would get temps down below 200 F
Shit. I guess I might have botched that calculation. Man, I used to be good at this crap too. (headshake Any idea what the real equation to use would be?

[byohndspeed]

in a month or so i will be able to tell ya what kind of change it does make. i have a wideband sitting here that i just havent had time to install. once i get it installed i can check it both ways.. i will let everyone know when the time comes.

[genius]

in a month or so i will be able to tell ya what kind of change it does make. i have a wideband sitting here that i just havent had time to install. once i get it installed i can check it both ways.. i will let everyone know when the time comes.

You just have one "lying around" and whenever you get a chance you will install it? LMAO!!!!!

That's awesome. Here I am trying to do research before buying one and when I do, I will be taking vacaction time right as FedEx comes to my door just to install it. I will even have a baby sitter on standby waiting to take care of my baby while the mother is out just so I can install it immediately. And someone on here happens to just have one just laying under his pillow! LOL!

Seriously, I will be sub'd waiting for your results. If there is a change of any more than 5 hp; I will make it my first priority to appoligize to all that I lied to and then do a massive research to figure out why. My guess, you will see a 2 ~ 5 HP jump in the lower middle range but the rest should be unaffected.

[jlindbo]

Shit. I guess I might have botched that calculation. Man, I used to be good at this crap too. (headshake Any idea what the real equation to use would be?

The overall process is desribed pretty well here (http://www.stealth316.com/2-adiabat1.htm). Additional research could be done to validate some of his assumptions but his figures were in line with what I would have expected

[jlindbo]

in a month or so i will be able to tell ya what kind of change it does make. i have a wideband sitting here that i just havent had time to install. once i get it installed i can check it both ways.. i will let everyone know when the time comes.

Excellent, I was planning on buying one of these as well. Looking forward to the results.

[Bala]

Excellent, I was planning on buying one of these as well. Looking forward to the results.

********** is having a GB on the AEM right now. I picked one up here:http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/AEM-GAUGE-TYPE-6-IN-1-WIDEBAND-UEGO-CONTROLLER-30-4100_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ46100QQitemZ461455 0516QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW
before I knew of it - also a great price.

[byohndspeed]

yeah i have a wb, dsm's afc, and an intake manifold that need to be put on. i have been busy opening a car audio store. so, those were just put on the back burner. yeah i would guess only a few hp in the lower end. but the smothness that came with the moving of the iat was worth it.

[Bala]

yeah i have a wb, dsm's afc, and an intake manifold that need to be put on. i have been busy opening a car audio store. so, those were just put on the back burner. yeah i would guess only a few hp in the lower end. but the smothness that came with the moving of the iat was worth it.
How did you seal the IAT on the cold pipe? I'm guessing it took more than the factory grommet?

[byohndspeed]

ok this is what i did. first off on the hiboost kit, the one bend is made from mild steel. i took a 1 1/8" diameter bolt and cut about 1 inch off the threaded end. drilled the center out so the sensor would fit through. then took the matching nut and welded a big washer on for a flange. drilled the washer out so it would fit the sensor through. then welded the bolt to the pipe and drilled through in the pipe. then i took a rubber o-ring and used that as a gasket, then just screwed it together. oh yeah, i also had to cut the nut down alittle.

[Bala]

Thanks for the images ... good job!

[SergMSP]

I am thinking about the best placement for the air temp sensor as well (anyone?). My plan is to cut a section of tubing out of my Perrin cold pipe about 12" upstream from the BOV and mount my MAF here. The cut out section of pipe will then fill the gap left in my Injen Intake. I'll be running an MPI with extra injectors so I need to mount these before the TB as well. Soo ... air temp sensor in Intake, loose or somehow mounted in cold pipe (yikes, I'm thinking boost leak issues)?

How about getting a filter witha hole already made for the IAT sensor?:
http://www.horsepowerfreaks.com/price/Mazda/Protege/AEM/Intakes/Air_Filters
If AEM is making them like this there it should be cool...:
Universal
2.75" Short Neck 5" Element w/ hole for ait sensor #172135
53.69 38.66

[j1racer]

I have a question and it may be dumb or it may have been answered but do you need a afc to relocate you maf or will the computer still dump enough fuel into my engine?

[speedcicle]

I have a question and it may be dumb or it may have been answered but do you need a afc to relocate you maf or will the computer still dump enough fuel into my engine?
You don't need an afc to relocate. Actually it would help your air fuel ratio. But i would suggest some sort of engine management with any mods or if you are running a higher boost. It's just the right thing to do. Look into the split second afc by dsm convert if you want quality at a good price.

[smo0f]

You don't need an afc to relocate. Actually it would help your air fuel ratio. But i would suggest some sort of engine management with any mods or if you are running a higher boost. It's just the right thing to do. Look into the split second afc by dsm convert if you want quality at a good price.

afc is fuel management not engine management

[speedcicle]

afc is fuel management not engine management
Afc is engine management, It controls the air fuel to keep the ratio where it is supposed to be. Avoiding being lean or rich. Therfore it is a basic form of engine managment. Same thing as the unichip. It is also engine management. The only other function that it controls is timing which the original split second does not but version 2 does.