Drag Racing Question/Discussion

[EvilMSP]

As I was browsing the internet and thought I would stop by the SRT-4 Forums to see how their 1/4 mi time list was going. Now this is not a SRT-4 vs MSP thread it just made me think of something.

What is/are the MSP's main hangup's when it comes to straight-line speed?

I only ask cause as the forums have grown it seems very hard to get big performance out of our cars compared to say the SRT-4. Now I know as we all do that the good SRT-4's have lots of money into them Stage 3 Mopar or not. Ignoring the 11 sec ones with 400+ hp I noticed how there are atleast 100 (just glancing at page) in the 12's. They varied from 250-350 hp and got varied places in the 12 range. I know there are fewer MSP's with that power range now but the times are not there. SO that is where the question comes from.

I know the SRT-4 has a much better base motor for big power, especially with the Mopar upgrades but a 3,000 lb car with X amount of horsepower should be reasonable close. So how come we can't seem to dip into the 12's as easy as they can. Here is what I thought of....

1. Our motor is not as easy to mod to produce those numbers and so fewer people do it making a much smaller pool to look at. The power/times are going to be there it will just take us much longer. (I think this is the most likely)

2. Is it tranny related? As in our gearset is not built very well for a drag racing application and we are not using the power we make as effeciently as say the SRT-4?

3. Same as #2 really but in general. Are we having big problems really using the power that we make? What should be working on/fixed before the power even becomes usefull.

That is what I thought of off the top of my head. I know there are small fixes for some issues like new engine mounts for better launches but I am talking more big things here. Hopefully this will start a fun little discussion on what can be done to squeeze better times out of our MSP's.

[JBreed]

Let's don't forget one important factor..."The Driver"

They have a larger pool of powerful cars, greater opportunity for better times by percentages.

Gearing is a factor too, I don't know how we compare to them, but they may have a lower gear ratio. That will make the kind of difference you are talking about. (in a quarter mile time)

2cents...

[EvilMSP]

The differnece in numbers is actually larger than I thought lol. Just in terms of what is on their drag list we have like 60ish times, where-as they have 500-ish. And most of those are 13-14 sec. I think we will be there eventually, just need time and money lol. I still want to have a little discussion on in though.

[MSP #167]

well u figure their car stock runs 14.0-14.4 depending on driver, our cars are about a whole second slower than them stock. that being said we have to do a lot more than just raise the boost to run low 13's like they can, because our engines are crap compared to theirs which are very strong. And we have a lot less to work with.....they have great aftermarket support and mopar support.

[RyanJayG]

traction and gearing.

they have it, we don't

just take a look at our average 60ft times vs. thiers and you'll get the picture

[mazdaspeedpower]

maybe a factor in this is that our car has been discontued and is no longer a production vehicle which is possibly what hampers our aftermarket following. We do have some amzing aftermarket support, but it's limited.

[BradC]

traction and gearing.

they have it, we don't

just take a look at our average 60ft times vs. thiers and you'll get the picture
My thoughts exactly.

Find a group of MSP's and SRT's w/similar powers, and look at the 60' times. Being able to find traction is key here.

Also, alot of SRT people set their shit up for drag more. Look how many of their times were pulled w/DR's or slicks, compared to how many protege's have the same.

That and they have 0 camber from the factory, again, back to 60' times.

Torque. Similar HP cars, the SRT will have more torque with a flatter powerband.

Gearing.

[EvilMSP]

Yeah I know a lot of the guys are more of a drag setup with slicks. I think people who would want straight line turbo 4 power would go in the SRT-4 direction anyway.

What can we do to fix the traction issue? I havent looked in a while but I remember focus (i think atleast) and others were talking about a gearing change/upgrade both in quality and ratio. Seems like that would help us a lot. Anyone know of some protege's in general that have more of a drag setup? What are their 60 ft times like?

I seem to remember a protege or a 5 talking about good 60 ft times with a more drag setup....I think his avatar was a cat, forget name though.

[EvilMSP]

And I just glances at the SRT forums again. Looks like the majority of people in the 12's are anywhere from 1.8-2.1 for a 60 ft. Most are in the 1.8's though only a few 2.0+'s without huge power.

My best time se far is 2.33 on stock tires so far.

[BlkZoomZoom]

The first 60' does not even tip the iceburg once you hit over 300whp with these things. You cannot stand on the gas until third gear (with drag radials or slicks). You basically have to pedal it until the 1/8mile. We lose so much time beyond the first 60' it is unbelievable. I have compared my times beyond the 1/8 to that of a few cars (low 12 and high 11's) and mine are the same and faster.
If Focus or I could launch and sustain full throttle through the run we would both have low 12 second cars easy.
I had just started this year setting the alignment differently, I changed it every week for four weeks straight. The best I managed was a 13.22 on street tires. If I didn't blow it up I had a bunch of more tricks to do.
I will be getting a MSP into the low 12's here shortly though, just not mine. Everything will be and already started to be transferred over to it. I have a few trick pieces made that I can't wait to install and test.
I have watched the srt's launch very closely and talked to owners of fast ones extensivly. The stuff I have learned has given many ideas to transfer over to the MSP.
Don't worry guys, our cars will shine...just gonna take more time and alot more special made parts to get it there.

[anarchistchiken]

You're thinking of MP5jeff or whatever his name is. I'm not sure what happened to him...

Once I get my blower and my engine built, I'll try some drag radials. I'm looking for 280-300 whp, but I'll only be making 240-260 lb ft with the centrifigul blower, so the drivetrain should be okay, I hope. I'd love to hit sub 2 second 60' times, but we'll see. That's all still a year or so down the road.

As to your initial question, Ryan got it right. I think we might actually benefit from a longer final drive gear, because 1st gear is just too stupid short, and even 2nd could stand to be extended a little bit. But I'd say our main problem is traction. The MSP's come stock with some pretty aggressive camber, and that definatly doesnt help the 60' times, plus there are just a shit load more SRT's out there, so there are just a lot of better drivers (in a straight line) in stronger cars.

[KonspiracyImage]

subscribing

[mspeed101]

I have a few trick pieces made that I can't wait to install and test.
I have watched the srt's launch very closely and talked to owners of fast ones extensivly. The stuff I have learned has given many ideas to transfer over to the MSP.
Don't worry guys, our cars will shine...just gonna take more time and alot more special made parts to get it there.Care to let us in on the secrets? (evil) I cant seem to get better then 2.1 60fts on street tires. Then again I hardly go to the track or launch my car

[BlkZoomZoom]

No secrets. I made solid lower control arm bushings for the front. Made a set of adjustable swaybar end links also for the front. I am in the process of making a rod to replace the rear strut assembly. Also I have been looking into making a traction device to preload the front suspension.

[MSP #167]

Care to let us in on the secrets? (evil) I cant seem to get better then 2.1 60fts on street tires. Then again I hardly go to the track or launch my car

damn, that's not a bad 60ft at all, the best i ever got was like a 2.3, on my best time ever i had a 2.4 60ft. i wish i could pull 2.1's.

[BlkZoomZoom]

You also have to remember horsepower has a huge effect on 60' times. The more hp you gave the slower you have to come out. I was also hitting 2.19-4's with the stock set-up.

[CWiLL]

the real secret is the driver. ive driven my friends srt4, its one of the faster ones around, his car doesnt cut but 2.0 60fts on street tires. not too special but the car has good top end. srts are set up from the factry with a good motor, good axles, good clutch, etc and as blkzoom says above it just takes some $ for us to do it. i will ensure everybody that me and a few others on the board WILL have some good track #s soon. theres a few of us that are making good enough power to do so, just give us some time

[RyanJayG]

No secrets. I made solid lower control arm bushings for the front. Made a set of adjustable swaybar end links also for the front. I am in the process of making a rod to replace the rear strut assembly. Also I have been looking into making a traction device to preload the front suspension.

well you said you wanted a stiffer rear suspension... but holy cow!

I hope you have a trailer.

[BlkZoomZoom]

It isn't going to be my car. Mines retired. But yes you are right, if and when they are installed it will only be for the track and will have to be trailered there.

[KonspiracyImage]

the real secret is the driver. ive driven my friends srt4, its one of the faster ones around, his car doesnt cut but 2.0 60fts on street tires. not too special but the car has good top end. srts are set up from the factry with a good motor, good axles, good clutch, etc and as blkzoom says above it just takes some $ for us to do it. i will ensure everybody that me and a few others on the board WILL have some good track #s soon. theres a few of us that are making good enough power to do so, just give us some time



post # soon!

[jurgs01]

It's pretty obvious our cars aren't designed for the drag strip. Period. When someone gets a reliable 11s MSP, then that will be a pretty sweet ride. I don't see any reason to want to go faster.

[wicked]

BLKZOOM- you were running the stock clutch,no?and it was the crappy RE0-40's?
did you do anything about your camber?

thats a pretty respectable time for street tires.

[Hughes412]

subing

[Scotty878]

S-U-B-S-C-R-I-B-E spells subscribe....

[EvilMSP]

Good to hear you are working on trick/new parts BlkZoomZoom. I have realized I am much more interested in straight line speed than stupid cornering ability. So making the suspension much more drag friendly would be great for someone like me, but I wouldnt want to trailer it in :).

And yeah Joka a MSP (or any protege) in the 11's reliable would be a crazy car. For me I think anything 12.5 and down is a super street machine without being utterly rediculous...only slightly rediculous.

Also I just thought of Juan's P5, he went 12.5 with drag radials and claimed he could go a lot faster with more work. But that thread/info happened a looong time ago so I'm not certian on what he said.

And I could have sworn I saw a P5 owner get 1.8-1.9 times but I can't find the thread/post now when I search.

[EvilMSP]

It would also be nice to see Rich's times with his setup. I personally have never seen 1/4 mi numbers from his car but it would be interesting to see what his MSP can do.

I hope that new tranny gets made too, maybe it will open doors for the high rollers here.

[anarchistchiken]

I am pretty sure Juan is in the 11's consistently now...

[BlkZoomZoom]

Stock clutch disk with the ACT pressure plate. Not the reo-40's, they were the stock Mazdaspeed Miata tires toyo something or others. My reo40's were gone at 12k miles. These are actually smaller than the stock tire. I only ran .02 faster with drag radials the week before.

I have done a ton with the alignment. The last set-up seemed to work the best, I unloaded the front suspension then set alittle toe in and no camber.

[CWiLL]

post # soon!

i just got to figure out the aem harness to my ems then ill be dynoing and going to the track

[wicked]

BLKZOOMZOOM,it's a shame you won't be in this 1/4 mile trial anymore,I know you will be with other peoples cars,but it's not the same.
I know you would put more effort into yourown ride.

[LinuxRacr]

Wow, nice thread. Did I hear right? Bars to replace the rear struts?

[Tommy1005]

I think I'm just going with coil-overs in the back, that should help keep the front end under control, but we'll see......granted, I'm not making near the horsepower of alot of people on this board, but I'm also working with extremely limited funds, so 13's is where I'm headed for now atleast. Man, I need a new job, and need to get back to Houston

[LinuxRacr]

Yeah, I was going to get some Tokico Illumina struts, but for the closeness of price, I may go with some D2 or KSport Coilovers. AODfan? Where you at mang?

[EvilMSP]

I remember some people talking about having the stock front suspension with coilovers in the back for improved 60ft times. I belive the person who said that also mentioned having 1 or more spacers in the back too.

That would help to keep the power to the ground for sure. Not sure how that would effect cornering though. And I'm not talking about improving cornering im just not sure if doing those things would make for bad tuning. I personally havent messed around with suspension before so I dont know when straight-line setups start to get bad for actual street driving.

Keep the good talk/ideas a comming.

[Focus]

http://www.msprotege.com/vbb225/images/smilies/Drop%20Gob.gif

[Hughes412]

If your wanting to stiffen the rear so that it doesn't squat on take off you might try the spring spacers. I don't know it they still make them but when I was younger they had the spacers you put in the springs and it helped keep the spring from compressing. Just a though, it'll keep you from have to change out any thing.

[goku4658]

blkzoomzoom retired his car? doh

[peepsalot]

20% more displacement always helps.

[EvilMSP]

Yeah but we can make good power also with a little more work. This is less about SRT4 vs MSP and more about what we can do to close the gap on cars like that. But in reality just getting the most out of our cars, in a straight line atleast.

[Tommy1005]

where would I find spring spacers???? they would be alot cheaper than buying 2 sleeve coil-overs for the rearend

[Hughes412]

Man I haven't looked for them in a while. Try auto zone.

[Tommy1005]

so, they're not custom for the MSP, just a general spacer?

[CWiLL]

ive noticed that most of oru lowering springs make the car squat in the back. that is horrible for the track. full coilovers or something to clamp the rear springs wouold be great, i was thinking of ideas yesterday about this
also nobody uses DRs. most are on street tire, u need better tires too

[Hughes412]

so, they're not custom for the MSP, just a general spacer?


Yea, its just a general spacer that sits inbetween the coils. Make sure you take them out after your done racing or the first bump you hit they'll fall out.

[EvilMSP]

I am looking for a more permanent setup instead of adding stuff before a drag race, but that is a cool idea to stop squatting.

[BlkZoomZoom]

Yeah I have a set of those I made up. They are for sale if anybody wants them!?!?! lol.

[KonspiracyImage]

Yeah I have a set of those I made up. They are for sale if anybody wants them!?!?! lol.



interested. pm sent.

[Tommy1005]

interested.......pm sent

[silverspeed03]

is there anything that we do better than the SRT-4, besides coming out of a corner?

[Tommy1005]

just incase anybody is curious, Skunk2 makes a drag launch kit.....there is not a kit specifically for the protege, but you can buy the coilover kit and change the springs in the rear to a drag spring and it will give the same effect as the kit according to Skunk2......the kit is just coilovers for the rear with the drag springs already installed. The drag springs for the coilovers are about $50 and the coilovers themselves are around $300. I will be ordering these in the next week or so and will let you know how it affects the car at the track.

[jurgs01]

is there anything that we do better than the SRT-4, besides coming out of a corner?

Not be so ugly.

[wicked]

we don't have city bus looking interior,a 36"+ waist can fit in the seats,we don't understeer into the side of mountains when there is a slight drizzel,because the front of the car of a tank,and the rear is like paper.

oh yeah,and the look,def the looks.

[EvilMSP]

It will be interesting to see how those work Tommy, keep us informed :).

[BlkZoomZoom]

Whatever you do, you want to be able to undo for the street. It is extremely unsafe to be riding around with a very stiff suspension in the rear. It tends to like to come around real easy.

[Tommy1005]

considering I only push it in a straight line when on the street and not around corners, I'm not too terribly worried about it, plus I don't want to have to change my springs everytime I go to the track, that would get to be a real pain in the ass

[EvilMSP]

Yeah that is my rear dilema. In my head I'd like better straight-line over cornering but I'm not sure about actually driving it around. But my drag/straight-line goals arn't too lofty I think, so maybe a super stiff setup isnt the most important thing. Eh it all relative, hard to say. Especially since I plan before I buy instead of just trying stuff.

[Tommy1005]

well, since I'm getting the coil-overs, then adding the springs, I can put the drag springs on, see how it is no the street, if it's too twitchy, I will be able to change back to the original rear coilover springs fairly easily......anyway, we'll see what happens.