ECU tuning question

[wannaBgroupB]

Has anybody had any experience altering the factory fuel, ignition and boost settings via the actual ECU?

I see a lot of support for the Unichip, but I'm interested in modifying fuel, ignition and boost maps without resorting to a piggyback device or stand-alone engine management.

Does the factory ECU have a removeable EPROM? If not, can it be modified with a socket to accept a removeable EPROM chip? Does anybody make such a chip? Or has anyone had any luck in just straight up hacking the ECU?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

-Noah

[msp35]

http://www.msprotege.com/forum/showthread.php?t=113261

This guy has a Jet-Chip flash or something.... maybe pm him for more info?
Other than that the Unichip is the only plug n play management unit.

[wannaBgroupB]

Thanks for the tip, that sounds promising.

[low_psi]

An ECU was sent to Flyin' Miata a few years ago to be hacked. It was sent back a year later w/ a note that said "don't hold your breathe." Goodluck trying, but Mazda spent A LOT of time encrypting their software. No one has cracked it yet.

[wannaBgroupB]

so how do you suppose the guy that msp35 was talking about managed to get a reflash? Now I'm just confused.

[Aricjm15]

the only way to change the settings on the ECU is with a WDS setup, and with only the WDS machine you can only change the timing (advance/retard), to change the fuel mix you would need whatever software mazda uses and the WDS.

[dominoy2k1]

because maybe he is bullshitting or he got lied to.

[wannaBgroupB]

Well I PMed him, so maybe we'll find out. Returning to the other part of my original question though, if the PROM can't be hacked so the factory maps can be adjusted, is it possible to remove the chip, socket the board and replace it with a whole new chip? If so, has anybody made a chip for this purpose, or would I have to burn my own?

[wicked]

.or he's talking about the factory fix,the TSB flash?

[wannaBgroupB]

http://www.jetchip.com/i_intro.asp

Guess these guys are who he's talking about. If the ECU is as uncrackable as Flyin' Miata seems to think, then these guys must be replacing the chip (or it's all bs). Gives me hope that it might be possible though.

[wicked]

not sure,because it is the same basic ECU as the ford focus,and JET has been all up in that one for a few years.
so if anyone can do it,I think JET can.

the problem though is JET is not a very good tuning company.good at cracking,not tuning.

[low_psi]

Nope, the EECV board can't be "re-chiped." Jetchip has has results with Ford vehicles using the EECV because they've broken Ford's software encryption, which is obviously a lot easier than Mazda's code.

You're gonna spend alot of time and possibly money to gain the same results you can readily buy from various vendors on this site. Not worth the effort IMO. Its been pursued before, and nothing was accomplished.

[wannaBgroupB]

For a race effort, it could be worth it. Piggybacks are just an inherently sloppy solution. And standalone EMS is not allowed under the rules I'm playing by. That means modifying the ECU.

And why would it be necessary to break the software encryption to re-chip the board? At that point, wouldn't you be supplying a whole new set of maps on a custom burned PROM, not relying on Mazda's maps as a starting point?

[Mallard]

What racing rules are you going by?

[wicked]

For a race effort, it could be worth it. Piggybacks are just an inherently sloppy solution. And standalone EMS is not allowed under the rules I'm playing by. That means modifying the ECU.

And why would it be necessary to break the software encryption to re-chip the board? At that point, wouldn't you be supplying a whole new set of maps on a custom burned PROM, not relying on Mazda's maps as a starting point?

you have to have mazda's codes,because the codes are what the EEPROM is written in.the ECU won't understand anything else other than mazda.

[msp35]

The Jet chip invovled sending the ecu to them and having them program it for the specific mods being done to the vehicle, it was mazdaspeed specific and a half hour phone conversation was had with a tech before they set it up, seems to work great. As far as the n20 goes thats kinda what i figured, have seen plenty of people pop their motors around 12 lbs but handt heard anything about people using juice, better safe than sorry, just throwin it out there.


From his post.

[wannaBgroupB]

Ah, gotcha. So it's actually a data language, not just encryption of data is what you're saying.

[wannaBgroupB]

and ustcc is the rulebook I'm concerned with.

[Mallard]

and ustcc is the rulebook I'm concerned with.
I'm not familiar with their rules. Can you link me to a set of rules, or maybe just tell me what you have to stick to and I'd be able to help you out.

[wannaBgroupB]

http://www.ustcc.com/pdf_doc/USTCC_2005_rules.pdf

I've been speaking with one of their administrators about classing the car, and I'll likely be allowed a small boost increase. I'll also want to modify fuel and ignition curves. It seems to me, reading the rules, that only piggyback controllers or a modified factory ECU are allowed. No standalone. Any help or advice would be appreciated.

[Mallard]

Sounds like you best bet is the MPI Tuner in my opinion.

[SirJaime]

yiup yiup, all about the class's. you want to hide what you can. If they can find it, its a good up grade.

[wicked]

yeah,sounds like someone needs to research MPI-tuner,unless you can figure a way to piggy back mega-squirt.


BTW,haltech can be used as a piggy too.

[apocman]

I love my MPI and I also suggest buying the J&S Ultra-Safeguard.

With these two items you can pull all the extra HP out of the car you can and also protect the car from blowing it's engine....

No matter what EMS option you go with you should still buy the J&S becuase no EMS can do what it can do which is make the car faster and protect it from blowing !!!

[Mallard]

yiup yiup, all about the class's. you want to hide what you can. If they can find it, its a good up grade.
Not exactly good practice to break the rules and try to hide it. I also forgot about the MegaSquirt. You can control fuel and timing with it and would probably be a fairly good option. A friend of mine was wiring one up for his Grand National and was testing it with his turbo Integra. Not sure how it's worked out so far, but I've heard good things about the system.

You basic options for fuel and timing are:
-MPI Tuner
-MegaSquirt
-Emanage if you can get the timing control to work. I know they fry coils on DSM's and I'm not sure if anyone's been playing with timing on the MSP's that have it.
-Split Second FTC, DSMConvert would be the one to talk to about this. It's not out yet, no one has used it, and I'm not sure when it'll be out.

[speedfrk]

http://www.sctflash.com/

Email these guys they have done mazdas and are the best solution for the ford ecu that our cars have .

[wannaBgroupB]

Technically, I believe Megasquirt is a piggyback. It intercedes on behalf of the ECU for fuel (and spark if configured that way), but doesn't replace it for other functions. I toyed with the idea of using it on a couple other cars. There are a couple of problems I see with it....first, I can't control boost with it. Second, I need to use a MAP sensor. Does the Protege use a MAP sensor stock, or is it MAF based? Third, it's still a piggyback, so not the ideal solution. Possibility, though.

What's the MPI tuner?

Thanks for the tip, speedfrk, I'll be sure to check them out.

[Mallard]

MegaSquirt is a piggyback and would fit within the rules. None of the piggybacks can control boost since our ECU doesn't control boost. It's all mechanical. You'll need a boost controller or a stiffer wastegate spring to raise your boost with anything you use.

p.s. the MPI Tuner is an SMT-6 that's specifically modified for the Protege. Google SMT-6 and you'll probably find a bunch of info. MPINick on the forum can give you any information you need.

[wicked]

I have never used megasquirt as a piggy,always standalone.it has a MAP sensor you wire into it,it CAN control boost,it CANNOT control the MSP speedo(reg protege's don't worry),it can do a lot more then ANY standalone on the market.

if you ever have ANY questions on it contact: kdh 51 (AIM NAME) he has done more megasquirt then the person who designed it.
he does it mainly on volvo,but none the less,he knows megasquirt better then anyone.

[Mallard]

http://www.sctflash.com/

Email these guys they have done mazdas and are the best solution for the ford ecu that our cars have .
I e-mailed these guys and it won't work our set up yet. They said they are working on something for a November release time. I'll keep you posted because this is what i'll probably end up getting.

[wannaBgroupB]

wait a sec, now I'm confused. If boost is regulated mechanically and not by the ECU, then how do computer plugins like the Unichip modify boost settings? How are people raising their boost? Which leads me to....

Is the wastegate on our stock turbos integrated into the turbo, or is it a seperate unit?

[apocman]

you have to hookup a seleniod that has the vacuum running through it. It will take the incoming reading and change it and send that new adjusted reading to the wastegated acutator that is part of our turbo. it will for example tell the W/A that it has not met it's limit and to continue to allow for more boost, once you have met the adjusted boost level via your boost controller it will hold it there.

[apocman]

sorry for crude explination, but I didn't want to go to deep, which in turn could create more confusion.

[wannaBgroupB]

That's okay, I understand now I think. I was just hoping to avoid having to trick the wastegate into giving me more boost. But since the computer isn't controlling boost and the wastegate is integral, I guess I don't have a choice....that's the only way to do it. So I'll be relying on a seperate boost controller, but I'm still not sure what to do about the fuel and timing maps. Returning to my original question, am I limited to piggybacks or using a standalone for tuning fuel and spark?

[Mallard]

Piggybacks can do it, like the ones I listed above. Depending on your time table you might want to wait until SCT has their software ready. Then you will have control over all the ECU's parameters and you can reflash your stock ECU. They said it should be ready in November, so if you're building a car for next season you would have all winter to tune with it.

[peepsalot]

I tried to get the Tweecer guys to look at it. They said they could try to get it to work, but I never had the time to go down and visit them, and no one else was interested enough to volunteer. Seemed like it would be a very neat option to have.
http://www.msprotege.com/forum/showthread.php?t=103154
www.tweecer.com (http://www.tweecer.com)

[apocman]

MPI, UniChip or any other piggyback unit should suit your needs. Just make sure that it has been proven to work on your car before you purchase or you may be in for more than you bargained for.

[Mallard]

MPI, UniChip or any other piggyback unit should suit your needs. Just make sure that it has been proven to work on your car before you purchase or you may be in for more than you bargained for.
This man speaks the truth. Although with the SCT Software you'll have control over your actual ECU so you won't be wondering if you have everything wired right or if your ECU is learing around it. You'll also have access to all the stock ECU's parameters, as well as being able to monter all the stock sensors so you can see everything happening to your engine. It's a built in scan tool so you can see everything and also read codes. If you're racing and you know what you are doing when you tune then something like this is what you'll want. You can also get it with a built in 2 step rev limiter, which would help you greatly it you have standing starts.

This is the option I am going with, if it indeed comes out in November like they said it would. I will continue to be in contact with SCT and keep you posted on the progress.

[apocman]

Keep us posted on the status of this product. The more options we have the better off will be !!! there is always room for more car toys :)




This man speaks the truth. Although with the SCT Software you'll have control over your actual ECU so you won't be wondering if you have everything wired right or if your ECU is learing around it. You'll also have access to all the stock ECU's parameters, as well as being able to monter all the stock sensors so you can see everything happening to your engine. It's a built in scan tool so you can see everything and also read codes. If you're racing and you know what you are doing when you tune then something like this is what you'll want. You can also get it with a built in 2 step rev limiter, which would help you greatly it you have standing starts.

This is the option I am going with, if it indeed comes out in November like they said it would. I will continue to be in contact with SCT and keep you posted on the progress.

[goku4658]

get the microtech

[SirJaime]

DAMN! I want that. Mo Money Mo Money Mo Money !


This man speaks the truth. Although with the SCT Software you'll have control over your actual ECU so you won't be wondering if you have everything wired right or if your ECU is learing around it. You'll also have access to all the stock ECU's parameters, as well as being able to monter all the stock sensors so you can see everything happening to your engine. It's a built in scan tool so you can see everything and also read codes. If you're racing and you know what you are doing when you tune then something like this is what you'll want. You can also get it with a built in 2 step rev limiter, which would help you greatly it you have standing starts.

This is the option I am going with, if it indeed comes out in November like they said it would. I will continue to be in contact with SCT and keep you posted on the progress.

[wannaBgroupB]

The SCT sounds like a good bet to me too, assuming their time estimate is acurate. First race of '06 is March, so you're right, I should have plenty of time to play. Thanks, and definitely let me know if you hear anything.