Vendor and Consumer Protection Guidelines

[LinuxRacr]

Lately, and in the past I have seen a very bad trend develop. Good vendors who fabricate products for our forums have gotten a bad taste in their mouths due to the attitudes and actions of some of the members here, and have left our community, taking with them the products developed for our cars. People, this is not a good thing. For those of you who were around in the early days of this community, you know that we had NOTHING in the form of aftermarket support for our cars. People had to work hard to get a vendor to take a risk to develop parts for our cars.

We want to avoid chasing away good vendors who support our community with remarks like that, and BS from folks who don't take up issues with the vendor before posting. Vendors pay to keep this site alive. One such example of this:

A customer orders a product, and is told by the vendor that there will be a wait on the product to get it fabricated and produced. The customer understands and agrees. Weeks go by, and the customer gets impatient and forgets. The customer decides to post on the forums saying that they have paid the vendor a helluva lot of money, and that they have not recieved their part WITHOUT taking it up with the vendor 1st! This sends ripples of uncertainty to any potential customers who read this, and takes even more time away from the vendor who has to answer EXTRA phone calls and PM's to uncertain customers to assure them that they are not scammers instead of working on completing orders. Another thing that happens is someone who doesn't know the truth starts to flame the vendor. This is not only unacceptable, but does not help at all. The vendor now has to deal with a shitstorm on multiple fronts. Ultimately, the consumer who started the mess in the first place, has to retract their post when they are reminded of the agreement. Folks, all I can say about this is that it is a big headache for all parties involved, especially when it could have been avoided in the 1st place.

On the other hand, we don't want vendors on the forum with BAD customer service, and who is only out for the money. I've seen a lot of bone-headedness on both sides over the years, and believe it or not, one post can affect EVERYTHING! I am working with other forum members to come up with guidelines that will protect the costomer AND the vendor. We have to turn this situation around before we have no quality aftermarket left..

[CasopoliS]

I could not agree more. I commend those who have taken time to come up with products for forum members / mazda owners. Many of which are designed and made around our wants and needs.

[GHOSTWHISPER]

Great Idea man, I am trying to help Riles figure somethings out with the CF SRI, and CAI.

Thanks for bringing this out in the open.

[WShade]

(yippy) (yippy) (yippy) (yippy)

[stellar_bc]

I agree.

[Shane5425]

bout time, we need somthing like this , good work..

[jaw307]

good job, sometimes its hard to do product research anymore with all the mixed feedback on venders.

[pb4ugoout]

agreed! too much crap going around and too many people jumping to conclusions. quality takes time and patience is a virtue

[cable43]

Amen!

[Antoine]

This is really an important issue...The question is...how can we offer effective protection for both the vendor and member? Not only protection but create an environment that promotes a healthy aftermarket. Pat's dead on about this...In the early days of this community...we had to be patient and motivated to get the parts we wanted and it's no different today...We don't have the luxury of mainstream aftermarket support...Yes we have to work a little harder but we've got specialized cars for specialized owners...and we need a specialized aftermarket...So either help out or get out ;)

Please understand the cycle people!..Support Mazda Forums AV's = More AV involvement = More members = More Aftermarket support = Much needed funds = Mazda Forums future = The Mazda Aftermarket!

[t3ase]

http://www.msprotege.com/forum/showthread.php?t=96507&highlight=vendor+bash

[JDM Sam]

Too little, too late. The majority of the aftermarket can give a rat's ass about making new parts for our cars.

[Matthew]

Too little, too late. The majority of the aftermarket can give a rat's ass about making new parts for our cars.

+1

and some i know plan on pulling out real soon.

[BlkZoomZoom]

One thing though, Is it fair to other vendors for people with "power" (moderators, etc.) To use their "power" to promote one vendors product? I agree with keeping people happy, but playing favorites never has a good outcome.

[LinuxRacr]

Too little, too late. The majority of the aftermarket can give a rat's ass about making new parts for our cars.

While that may be somewhat the case in a minor sense, we have to work to keep the vendors we do have. We have GREAT vendors here.

[LinuxRacr]

One thing though, Is it fair to other vendors for people with "power" (moderators, etc.) To use their "power" to promote one vendors product? I agree with keeping people happy, but playing favorites never has a good outcome.

If this is happening, report it. If I was doing that, I would want to know.

[J dragon]

Too little, too late. The majority of the aftermarket can give a rat's ass about making new parts for our cars.


That is sad that the majority has to suffer for the mistakes of the few.....I understand people have short fuses, and one misunderstanding can ruin a whole lot, but instead of TAKING YOU BALL AND QUITIING THE GAME because of the pissant few....why not let the community handle it. These aftermarket companies need to continue making products for Mazda's for the simple fact that WE NEED THEM, don't stop doing something you love to do(while making money off of it as well) that is not the answer..that's a child's way out. Mazda Needs this...We appriciate YOU!

[BlkZoomZoom]

http://www.msprotege.com/forum/showthread.php?t=107985

http://www.msprotege.com/forum/showthread.php?t=107987

Last I knew this was the first Group Purchase ever stickied.? Not that it really matters, just don't think its fair to other vendors.

[LinuxRacr]

Anytime a thread like those are stickied, it is meant to only be stickied till the group buy ends so that folks don't miss out. It was a request. There are better methods of doing stuff like that we willing to explore.

[LinuxRacr]

That is sad that the majority has to suffer for the mistakes of the few.....I understand people have short fuses, and one misunderstanding can ruin a whole lot, but instead of TAKING YOU BALL AND QUITIING THE GAME because of the pissant few....why not let the community handle it. These aftermarket companies need to continue making products for Mazda's for the simple fact that WE NEED THEM, don't stop doing something you love to do(while making money off of it as well) that is not the answer..that's a child's way out. Mazda Needs this...We appriciate YOU!

The thing is when the vendor has other markets available, and are not getting the same hasles from them, why would they stick around to be "beaten" on?

[BlkZoomZoom]

Anytime a thread like those are stickied, it is meant to only be stickied till the group buy ends so that folks don't miss out. It was a request. There are better methods of doing stuff like that we willing to explore.

So what you are saying is any Vendor with a group buy going on can have it stickied in other sections upon request? Seems like we would have more vendors requesting this.

[SpicyMchaggis]

It's hard to stop people from being stupid though Pat.

[LinuxRacr]

So what you are saying is any Vendor with a group buy going on can have it stickied in other sections upon request? Seems like we would have more vendors requesting this.

No one else requested. What you see as favoritism is nothing more than that. Looking back, it may not be a good idea to do this anymore, or folks may get the wrong impression... (headshake

[LinuxRacr]

It's hard to stop people from being stupid though Pat.

Yes it really is... They don't make compilers for people... hahaha!

[slug420]

just make sure you dont include comparing an contrasting the product being offered/discussed with those of competitors as forms of "vendor bashing".

[CasopoliS]

Maybe vendors can only offer GB's in the main AV, AMM, Sponsor GB section... no stickies, no nothing. Any vendor that wishes to offer a GB can do it there (if approved). If members want to view the current deals offered by our vendors, they can just go there. If the product is car specific, then the title can state it. I still like to see what my favorite vendors are making for cars other than mine anyway. Just an idea. That way no fighting, vendors have equal 'outreach' for lack of better terms.

[mazpro]

great write-up. I also agree that vendors should do the GB's in the main AV, AMM, Sponsor GB section. so that there is a different thread for the member sales and vendor Group Buys.

[SpicyMchaggis]

What would be kind of cool is if there was an area to discuss vendor products instead of "comparing and contrasting" in the vendor's for sale thread. You know, that area, what was it called, the rest of the forum!? People should just really stop cluttering up the for sale sections with "OMG OH GNOES WILL DIS BLATANTLY MSP ONLY PART WORK ON MY P5?!?" Just a thought.

[CasopoliS]

One thing we must also watch... we must not get caught up in bashing the problems, or the people that cause them. You must focus on solutions rather than the problems themselves. The goal is to create a healthy atmosphere between the vendors, moderators, and members of the forum. I know (and the moderators do as well), this is not an easy task... but reaching the goal is the #1 priority here.

[MazdaT]

One of the biggest frustrations for a customer is time. I don't think it is the amount of time, it has more to do with deadlines not being kept. I think people get upset when they have paid, and don't have a product, and a deadline goes past without a phone call from the vendor. Then they try calling the vendor with no luck. That's what leads to the posts. Because the customer knows by posting bad, they can get some action. I don't think it is right that the customer gets to use the board that way, but on the same token, vendors must keep in contact with customers. I'm waiting patiently for a couple of products from one of our vendors. I have say, the amount of time is not the problem, it's the uncertainty of when my stuff is going to arrive. If a deadline comes and goes, and a product is not going to ship, a phone call from the vendor will go a long way. I know I will be much happier if I get a call saying I'm not getting anything yet because it's not ready. At least I know it's still being worked on.

Just change of the posting rules to no bashing vendors or companies that are none vendors on the board in public. It limits hot heads from bashing vendors because they are using emotion, and not there brain. I've seen it in other forums. Then the only way to tell people is through PM's or emails. If it's a really f'ed up situation, then everyone will know, and maybe then it can be discussed. If it's just someone that is crying for no reason, nobody will give a crap, and it will never effect the vendor.

[DSMConvert]

I commend you guys on finally bringing this to light...being both a customer and a vendor I can see how both sides are getting frustrated at the negative results that are happening...I myself almost ceased product of all MSP products last week after a recent run in with a bad tempered "basher" the only reason I'm staying around is b/c I received nearly 40 emails of past customers telling me to not let it get to me that they were very happy with what we've sold thus far. Perhaps there should be some sort of mediation form as a first step in solving vendor-customer problems. ie if a customer has a problem they can fill out a certain form and send it to the appropriate moderator, here the moderators can get together and decided a course of action to make both parties happy. THis way the customer has a paper trail and can "go public" if the vendor refuses to cooperate, and the vendor is allowed the chance to fix any problems without being crucified.

[mazdaspd2003.5]

Or the guy that sends a lame ass canadian check and we lose 300 dollars.


OUCH.... lol I'm from Canada
(fuoops)

I agree, no support and even less here in Canada.... People need to pick their battles. To quote some guy "To error is human, but to forgive is divine"


Sorry for the thread Jack
http://www.msprotege.com/forum/showthread.php?t=96507&highlight=vendor+bash

[UnNaturalinc]

:thumbs-up: :)

[Shadow102]

while we are on this subject i have recently noticed a current vendor has been sent to purgatory for promoting/defending his product which goes against the message this post is giving out of trying to treat our vendors a little better so they will not leave and continue to produce inovative products. I would have to say though that when i researched the thread of y this person was banned all the posts against him where deleted to make him alone look bad.

[Antoine]

So what you are saying is any Vendor with a group buy going on can have it stickied in other sections upon request? Seems like we would have more vendors requesting this.

No...Actually stickies should not be vendor related.

[Antoine]

One thing we must also watch... we must not get caught up in bashing the problems, or the people that cause them. You must focus on solutions rather than the problems themselves. The goal is to create a healthy atmosphere between the vendors, moderators, and members of the forum. I know (and the moderators do as well), this is not an easy task... but reaching the goal is the #1 priority here.

Well said!

[Antoine]

Perhaps there should be some sort of mediation form as a first step in solving vendor-customer problems. ie if a customer has a problem they can fill out a certain form and send it to the appropriate moderator, here the moderators can get together and decided a course of action to make both parties happy. THis way the customer has a paper trail and can "go public" if the vendor refuses to cooperate, and the vendor is allowed the chance to fix any problems without being crucified.

Solid Idea ;) Could be on to something here...

[LinuxRacr]

while we are on this subject i have recently noticed a current vendor has been sent to purgatory for promoting/defending his product which goes against the message this post is giving out of trying to treat our vendors a little better so they will not leave and continue to produce inovative products. I would have to say though that when i researched the thread of y this person was banned all the posts against him where deleted to make him alone look bad.

That person is NOT an authorized vendor on this site.

[Shadow102]

That person is NOT an authorized vendor on this site.

the how is it that his product has been authorized to have been sold in a GB thread in the vendor area. maybey he himself does not have the full vendor status but he is still able to promote the product being authorized for sale on this forum. Thats like saying the only person aloud to promote products on this bored are vendors

[MazdaT]

Please keep this post going, as it will only do good for everyone. Maybe split the specific issues off, and keep the main post as a think tank for ideas.

[insanoman2005]

This thread and Linuxs' reply to shadows post has made me ask myself if it's really worth it to continue with my endeavors. I spent a shitload of my own money and time (and others donated as well) to see that I could offer something to this community that NO'ONE else has. This isn't a decal kit or ground kit that can be had anywhere. Hell there are even multiple turbo kits to choose from. I went out on a limb and invested over a year of my life into this project....and NOT just for myself. If I was building a blower for my own personal use it would've been done about 8 months ago with different hardware.

My point is this:
I made a product because I was told it couldn't be done and people were asking for it. However, based on personal skirmishes I've been branded the worst vendor on the internet even though I've had nothing but praise spoken about me, my GB's , and my stuff. When I looked into selling the SC kit Ken and I got together and decided we would sell everything through Protegegarage (supporting a vendor) and he would be the middle man selling MY product. This is not anyone else's stuff but my own. I'm the manufacturer I guess you could say. Ken is the vendor. Ken can't answer all of the questions about MY product in a timely manner so in my browsing I try to give updates or answer questions. How many current manufacturers actually answer tech questions on here? I know of about 3 in total. This should be encouraged not condimned.

The countless crap thrown my way by the mods/admin give me NO reason to continue to create product for this group. I've given some thought to only selling to people from other forums as a way to protest but in the end it dawned on me. You guys treat me (other vendors) like shit and we'll go somewhere else. I'm working on 4 kits right now for people that I'm selling at my cost....that means I'll have made 5 custom kits out of my pocket and made $0.00 on it. I'm also looking to now make blowers for the miata and NA rx7's possibly even the rx8....notice I quickly dropped blower for the 2.3L engine I was going to work on next. There's no incentive for me or anyone else for this matter to put up with the kind of bullshit I have to put up with on here.

All I asked for was to be treated fairly and I'd do what I needed to do (when the time came) to follow all of the guidlines of this forums AV status. Instead of being treated fairly I was ignored and subsequently banned or purgatoried or whatever.

Seems like if you people in charge want to attract more vendors you should start by not screwing with the ones you have.

p.s. nowhere EVER will you be able to find anyone who says I'm a bad vendor or gave bad service.

[UnNaturalinc]

That's very unfortunate, Insanoman.....

I have not had anything to near that degree. I've had an overall good experience here on this board I would say. I did have a similar situation when I was trying to produce an intercooler kit however. Very little positive feedback from people. I was told I better not be ripping off/knocking off other product on the small Mazda community. I took offense to that because I've been a direct part of the Mazda community for over 5 years now. I've developed, R&D, tested, etc a number of products on the market today. Most of the time that stuff takes is not paid for... it's all for "fun" so to speak. If it's no longer fun for me I'm not going to waste my time doing it. That's unfortunate for the people who do want product and appreciate the time involved.

I do appreciate all my faithful supporters (for lack of a better term) on this board however. There's some great people on here!

[Antoine]

This thread and Linuxs' reply to shadows post has made me ask myself if it's really worth it to continue with my endeavors. I spent a shitload of my own money and time (and others donated as well) to see that I could offer something to this community that NO'ONE else has. This isn't a decal kit or ground kit that can be had anywhere. Hell there are even multiple turbo kits to choose from. I went out on a limb and invested over a year of my life into this project....and NOT just for myself. If I was building a blower for my own personal use it would've been done about 8 months ago with different hardware.

My point is this:
I made a product because I was told it couldn't be done and people were asking for it. However, based on personal skirmishes I've been branded the worst vendor on the internet even though I've had nothing but praise spoken about me, my GB's , and my stuff. When I looked into selling the SC kit Ken and I got together and decided we would sell everything through Protegegarage (supporting a vendor) and he would be the middle man selling MY product. This is not anyone else's stuff but my own. I'm the manufacturer I guess you could say. Ken is the vendor. Ken can't answer all of the questions about MY product in a timely manner so in my browsing I try to give updates or answer questions. How many current manufacturers actually answer tech questions on here? I know of about 3 in total. This should be encouraged not condimned.

The countless crap thrown my way by the mods/admin give me NO reason to continue to create product for this group. I've given some thought to only selling to people from other forums as a way to protest but in the end it dawned on me. You guys treat me (other vendors) like shit and we'll go somewhere else. I'm working on 4 kits right now for people that I'm selling at my cost....that means I'll have made 5 custom kits out of my pocket and made $0.00 on it. I'm also looking to now make blowers for the miata and NA rx7's possibly even the rx8....notice I quickly dropped blower for the 2.3L engine I was going to work on next. There's no incentive for me or anyone else for this matter to put up with the kind of bullshit I have to put up with on here.

All I asked for was to be treated fairly and I'd do what I needed to do (when the time came) to follow all of the guidlines of this forums AV status. Instead of being treated fairly I was ignored and subsequently banned or purgatoried or whatever.

Seems like if you people in charge want to attract more vendors you should start by not screwing with the ones you have.

p.s. nowhere EVER will you be able to find anyone who says I'm a bad vendor or gave bad service.

What's up Matty...We had let you back in after being banished for being a GRADE A ASSHOLE...I let you develop/expose your WOMP system with the help of this community and gave you a chance to market it with Ken...you didn't end up in Purgatory (a sort of holding forum for trouble makers) out of spite...No one is "out to get you"...The problem is not with the Admin/Mods...it's with you...your incapable of conducting your self in a non offensive manner...I thought you finally were and I was very interested in seeing your WOMP project come to life...I still am...

The bottom line is...people love to bitch about anything and everything...IF you let them...It's time to listen to what your Mother always said...if you don't have anything nice (or CONSTRUCTIVE) to say...THEN DON'T F'in SAY IT! or use PM!!!

I'm going to work on a questionnaire for the vendors to get some real feedback on this problem...I'll post the rough draft here...less talk more action people!

[insanoman2005]

I let you develop/expose your WOMP system with the help of this community and gave you a chance to market it with Ken.

oh, you LET me do this...how fucking gracious of you. You've been SUPER-supportive during the process.

..you didn't end up in Purgatory out of spite......your incapable of conducting your self in a non offensive manner...

ok so why am I being "punished" after months of smooth sailing?? Tell me again how you're being fair or treating me like someone that you want some respect from. Give respect if you want to get it in return. Treat me like a child or piece of shit and I'm going to dish it back 10 fold...

I'm going to work on a questionnaire for the vendors to get some real feedback on this problem...


So you don't think my issues are legit? I'm not considered a "real" vendor so my problems aren't real. The fact still stands that I've gathered a lot of steam, more than you'd probably like to admit, and those who are looking forward to my stuff are going to have no'one to blame but the current admins on this forum if I pack my bag and leave. You have some serious thinking to do about what it's worth to you to try to prove a point. Do you wanna be the one to tell your members that you ran off a vendor with a one-of-a-kind product that people are craving?? If so, I don't think you have ANY right to create these threads crying about members running off vendors. Whatever your personal beef is with me there's never been a problem with my sales or customer service. All of these issues with are old and being brought up by only a few people...the masses want me to sell stuff. Balls in your court. How do you wanna play it?

[Matthew]

he doesnt really car ein the end matt. in the end, he isnt profitting from you staying or leaving. we can speculate as to such and such amount of people leaving, but nothing that someone else searching google isnt going to replace.

[Kooldino]

So you don't think my issues are legit? I'm not considered a "real" vendor so my problems aren't real. The fact still stands that I've gathered a lot of steam, more than you'd probably like to admit,

A lot of steam? You sold 5 kits. Come back down to reality.

and those who are looking forward to my stuff are going to have no'one to blame but the current admins on this forum if I pack my bag and leave.

No, you'll be to blame because you're not holding up your end of the bargain. Admitted, you've been better than in the past, but you bring it on yourself, dude. If you don't like it, go ahead. Leave. But you won't leave, because your forum doesn't have the user base that ours does.

You have some serious thinking to do about what it's worth to you to try to prove a point. Do you wanna be the one to tell your members that you ran off a vendor with a one-of-a-kind product that people are craving??

YOU are to blame. Not US. YOU are running off real vendors who actually have more than a one off product and sell more than 5.

If so, I don't think you have ANY right to create these threads crying about members running off vendors. Whatever your personal beef is with me there's never been a problem with my sales or customer service.

Last I heard, people were waiting longer than expected for their WOMP kits. You've had yours running for months, so what's the hold up?

Sorry if I seem harsh, but cut the bullshit...don't put the blame on us. There's a reason you're in the position you're in...and it's not because we all decided to gang up on you after picking your name out of a hat.

[Antoine]

YOU are to blame. Not US. YOU are running off real vendors who actually have more than a one off product and sell more than 5.


Exactly...Thanks for chiming in KD because you know frankly I can't be bothered to deal with you anymore matty...and I feel there a lot of people that are just tired of you and your antics...good or bad...or whatever...BS is still BS...no matter how you word it...

Leave. But you won't leave, because your forum doesn't have the user base that ours does.

and you know it...

Anyway...no more wasting time on matty (I will delete any further off-topic posts)...back to the topic at hand...I'll try to get that questionnaire going sometime this week.

[TurfBurn]

It's also a major issue for this forum for vendors offering competing products to be able to so in a non-confrontational manner. It is also pretty much impossible to ever say why your product is "better" or not without getting accused of vendor bashing or having "groupies" jump in on threads and go nuts. I've seen way too many threads of that nature and way too much of it from nearly all of our major vendors. Even when the threads and the comments are well intended much of it goes downhill very quickly. If I ever posted a thread saying that Microtech was better than the others because of X and Y then I'll have 15 people in that thread in 20 minutes saying I'm an ass and that I'm bashing other vendors etc. THAT is inappropriate. however I do believe that it is necessary and important for the vendor be able to rep their product against a claim I'd make. I'd want to be able to do the same. The problem we have in many ways is a lot of "groupie" mentality and over loyalty by members of the forums. If NSN, MPI, HiBoost, MAM and HPFreks are all marketing a +20hp carbon fiber sticker there WILL be vendor bashing by groupies about how one of the above +20 carbon stickers is far superior to the others and how could you dare ever claim otherwise... I've seen that to be the single biggest cancer to vendors on this forum. And while many would like to claim that it is only one vendor or anothers groupies... I think all of the vendors on here have a degree of groupies and it happens at all levels and all sides...

I do agree that the idea mentioned earlier in the thread about having the forum member fill out a complaint to lodge with the moderators before they are allowed to go public it would be great. I fully support and welcome that idea. Ideally if communication is good between the customer and vendor it will never get to that... If it does come to that hopefully the vendor and the customer both have enough records to show what happened... so definitely.. formalize the complaint airing process!

[jurgs01]

Turfburn,

I personally think you should promote your products more often. You are a nice guy, almost too nice it seems to be a vendor. You are one of the few people who I read every word of your posts because I know there is thought and substance in every word. Some vendors need to take lessons from the way you avoid flamewars. You have definately been involved in a ton of discussions or debates, but all of those that I have seen have been civilized. I can't say that for myself and neither can 90% of the members or the mods. I appreciate the advice and help you give to the community. I also wouldn't think twice about buying products from you. I know I would get a good product (because you know what you are doing) and receive great customer support. If I didn't already have the MPI I would be in line for the Microtech. PROMOTE YOUR PRODUCT AND DON'T WORRY ABOUT THE TROLL GROUPIES!

On the topic of vendor bashing. I have been guilty of battling with a vendor as have many other members here. I really like DSM's idea of having a moderator to regulate group buys. As a consumer I can say it's really frusterating when you are dealing with a vendor for the first time, you are weeks past the deadline for receiving the part, and you don't know whether you should post about the problem or just keep waiting in faith. A simple vendor contacting his customers and explaining the situation would solve everything, but sometimes these vendors are so busy (most aren't big companies with secretaries to make their calls) that they forget. If we had a moderator who could get the vendor's and customer's contact number's at the start of the GB, then keep up when the expected deadlines are due, there would be less problems overall. Even my favorite vendors have customers getting impatient when a quick e-mail or phone call to update people would really solve everything and give the customer a "warm and fuzzy."

[DSMConvert]

antoine if you end up taking my idea let me know if I can help in any way...Turfburn i think something as vendors we all need to do is to not support "groupies" who bash other vendors and to also familiarize ourselves with other vendor products. I try to lead by example by making sure that i do not make unwarranted claims about my own as well as others products and my customers well know that though I fully appreciate the support and word of mouth advertising, i don't condone bashing others products to make mine look good. Lets face it as vendors we have a fair amount of clout over regular members so the best thing we can do to help with the recent problems is to communicate between eachother if we have a disagreement and to remind our customers that there is a difference between supporting a product and bashing one.

[TurfBurn]

Yeah, good point... I communicate directly with my sponsored guys so they know what is going on and what not to say or do... it's some of the ones that I don't know about or people who are more loyal to you than you may know that I worry more about and I see more problems with. It's hard for a vendor to keep tabs on that stuff. I have to run weekly searches for NSN and Microtech and so forth to keep tabs on threads we come up in that I know nothing about.... and that's a pain! I don't ever condone negative approaches with products. I also try to not get into the "better than" mode or anything just simply state "Hey, my product does this... that ones does that... " and leave it to the customer to decide if that is "better" or not. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't.

There is enough misinformation and misconception with some products as well that it takes a lot to clear things up. I have a pretty good relationship with Beau and with Nick so it makes it easier to communicate between us on competing products so that we don't have friction. And any other vendor I encourage to talk to me and I'll talk to them too any time we overlap. I want to make sure that customers get what they want and need, and not what I want to sell them necessarily... One reason why i recommend the MPI to some people even though I sell engine management too... it's what they need... not a Microtech in some cases... It's a different approach than some take... but we aren't a "money making" company... mostly just doing what I can to stay alive as far as our bills and development... and enjoy doing it and hopefully time will make us profitable. So I have slightly different interests I guess which affects my views, approach and philosophy on here... this doesn't change what is in my pockets...

[MPNick]

I think the vendor should have section on some of the members on this forum. The ones that bust your balls all day and night about dumb stuff. Only in the end to find out that they scewed something up and now it is fixed. Or about how they need it right away so you make all kinds of changes or go out of your way for them only to have their credit card declined or to have them do a charge back because they feel that they no longer want to keep the product.

The problem is most of the members are young[ so they do not know how to deal with problems] and some have no respect for anything,[the way they were brought up by their parents]. They have a credit card and the Home Depot mentality. Buy it now, use it for a while and then send it back. Or the have a problem come on this forum and blast a vendor because they did not kiss their the way they liked and so they have the right to do so. The forum had allowed this to go on without and checks. I do not see the fair way for the forum to police this problem. If you let one guy bitch then you cannot say no to the next. But if it gone unchecked you have war. Glad I do not own this forum. You are between a rock and an ass member lot of times. Thats why I handle my problems with forum members as I do.

So a section where the vendor can post about a forum members to stay away from or tell about the type of customer they would be. This way you do not have vendor leaving the forum. You only have vendor that will not sell an forum member that will only be a problem.

[Antoine]

I think the vendor should have section on some of the members on this forum. The ones that bust your balls all day and night about dumb stuff. Only in the end to find out that they scewed something up and now it is fixed. Or about how they need it right away so you make all kinds of changes or go out of your way for them only to have their credit card declined or to have them do a charge back because they feel that they no longer want to keep the product.

The problem is most of the members are young[ so they do not know how to deal with problems] and some have no respect for anything,[the way they were brought up by their parents]. They have a credit card and the Home Depot mentality. Buy it now, use it for a while and then send it back. Or the have a problem come on this forum and blast a vendor because they did not kiss their the way they liked and so they have the right to do so. The forum had allowed this to go on without and checks. I do not see the fair way for the forum to police this problem. If you let one guy bitch then you cannot say no to the next. But if it gone unchecked you have war. Glad I do not own this forum. You are between a rock and an ass member lot of times. Thats why I handle my problems with forum members as I do.

So a section where the vendor can post about a forum members to stay away from or tell about the type of customer they would be. This way you do not have vendor leaving the forum. You only have vendor that will not sell an forum member that will only be a problem.

How about a hidden AV/AMM Forum...only visible to active AVs and AMMs. You can post about problem members, keep communication lines open amongst other vendors as well as with me and the staff...?

[Captain KRM P5]

How about a hidden AV/AMM Forum...only visible to active AVs and AMMs. You can post about problem members, keep communication lines open amongst other vendors as well as with me and the staff...?

I support this idea 110%

[Antoine]

I support this idea 110%

Sweet...I'd like to hear from our other AVs/AMMs as well...If you guys support this idea I will definitely make it happen!

[TurfBurn]

Ditto.. but there should be an agreement/statement that nothing leaves that forum.

[jurgs01]

Ditto.. but there should be an agreement/statement that nothing leaves that forum.

What happens in the forum stays in the forum(butthump)

Sorry, I had to.

[MPNick]

How about a hidden AV/AMM Forum...only visible to active AVs and AMMs. You can post about problem members, keep communication lines open amongst other vendors as well as with me and the staff...?

I am 100% for this.

[Kooldino]

I support this idea 110%
Well I support this idea 120%.

[MPNick]

Well I support this idea 120%.

I make it 125%

[TurfBurn]

Damn it... 150% to the infinity power ;).

[Captain KRM P5]

I make it 125%

i'll take your 125 and raise you 50

[Antoine]

Okay boys and girls...I've setup a new forum called "Vendor Views" in the marketplace. It should only be visible to active AV's, AMMs and Sponsors (and of course admins ;) ). Right now it's closed so new threads can't be posted. We need to establish some rules & guidelines to make the most of this forum.

Can you guys view it? Anyone with a normal user account...can you see it?

Let's get the ball rolling...post any feedback on rules & guidelines...I recall someone mentioning an agreement that whatever is discussed in "Vendor Views" does NOT leave "Vendor Views"...What do you guys think?

[Captain KRM P5]

i can see and enter the section without a problem (first)

[TurfBurn]

Okay boys and girls...I've setup a new forum called "Vendor Views" in the marketplace. It should only be visible to active AV's, AMMs and Sponsors (and of course admins ;) ). Right now it's closed so new threads can't be posted. We need to establish some rules & guidelines to make the most of this forum.

Can you guys view it? Anyone with a normal user account...can you see it?

Let's get the ball rolling...post any feedback on rules & guidelines...I recall someone mentioning an agreement that whatever is discussed in "Vendor Views" does NOT leave "Vendor Views"...What do you guys think?

The question would be what is the penalty for discussing or posting any kind of information discussed in the Vendor Views section outside of that area. I think it is a given that nothing should leave that area as it could get very bad if one vendor "bashed" a customer because they were a problem child for the vendor, and then another vendor posted or used some of that info out in the "open" to undermine another vendor... I think that's a basic one. Penalty? Loss of vendorship and temporary ban for 30 days? Then re-instatement for a probationary period. 2nd violation results in permanent termination of vendorship. Although severity of offense may be worth considering in mitigating that.

I think this forum will also be good for airing out differences or questions between vendors regarding products. If we each understand more about what myself, Nick and Beau, and Ben, and Juan and others have to offer it should help reduce flame wars etc out in the forums.

I can't think of many rules or guidelines we'd need as MOST of the time the vendors are the generally more mature and careful than some members of the forums.

[Kooldino]

Some kind of time ban seems like a decent idea.

Alternately, we could shorten your AV term by a month or something.

[Tito1]

Isn't the title, 'vendor AND consumer protection guidelines'? So the mods want to protect the precious vendors.

It seems like a large part of the problem is the inability of the vendors to make good on the promises. I'm not pointing fingers, and don't want too, but WTF are we protecting Vendors from? If they are not late on shipments, late on responses, late on products, or selling underperforing products it is their jobs as salespeople to answer to the cutomer.

I've had posts deleted just for pointing out that a particular vendor did not have the exclusive rights to a product that they claimed. I go back an hour later and guess what...the posts are gone. Clearly I have no stake in a 'Vendors only' area, but what about a members area where the mods aren't protecting their paying vendors.

This is not an issue with the vendors, b/c the vendor was just as confused as to why the post was deleted. It is an issue with the mods. If the board is a censored discussion, the credibility of the vendors is lost.

I'm sorry, but that action by the mods has me questioning all info on the boards regarding the vendors products. And it is not b/c of a bad Vendor experience.

[Captain KRM P5]

Isn't the title, 'vendor AND consumer protection guidelines'? So the mods want to protect the precious vendors.

It seems like a large part of the problem is the inability of the vendors to make good on the promises. I'm not pointing fingers, and don't want too, but WTF are we protecting Vendors from? If they are not late on shipments, late on responses, late on products, or selling underperforing products it is their jobs as salespeople to answer to the cutomer.

I've had posts deleted just for pointing out that a particular vendor did not have the exclusive rights to a product that they claimed. I go back an hour later and guess what...the posts are gone. Clearly I have no stake in a 'Vendors only' area, but what about a members area where the mods aren't protecting their paying vendors.

This is not an issue with the vendors, b/c the vendor was just as confused as to why the post was deleted. It is an issue with the mods. If the board is a censored discussion, the credibility of the vendors is lost.

I'm sorry, but that action by the mods has me questioning all info on the boards regarding the vendors products. And it is not b/c of a bad Vendor experience.

there is plenty to protect vendors from. there are members that will and have posted false or slanderous remarks about a vendor with the sole intent being to damage that vendor. many of those users have not even purchased a part from that vendor. there are users who will install a part incorrectly or against the advice of a vendor, cause serious damage to a vehicle and then blame the vendor. there are members who will tell thier friends they are getting some hot part from a vendor, acknowledge that vendor politely about the wait, take flak from thier friends, and then pull an internet tough guy and fabricate a story about how the vendor lied about a delay. there are overseas customers who use false credit cards. there are overseas customers who send false wire transfers and money orders. there are overseas customers who do not pay customs fees and have that vendor's account with said shipper jeapordized.

this is a short list of things that can and has happened to vendors on this forum. it is not talked about because no vendor wants to bash a customer when doing so may endanger thier public image. there are plenty of things a vendor can and should have the venue to protect themselves from and providing a venue where vendors can share that information without the clutter of other posts is a valuble and required tool for the survival of organized commerce on this forum. vendors have as much right to share information about bad customers and potentially dangerous situations as a customer does to spread information about a bad vendor.

i personally have been taken advantage by more than a few customers (you all know who you are) on this forum and would not want those customers to do the same thing to another vendor here. The argument that "those situations are the risk you run when you become a vendor" is like saying "getting garbage is a risk you run when you buy from someone". This forum does not have to be a pit of caveat emptor in either regard.

[MPNick]

If they are not late on shipments, late on responses, late on products, or selling underperforing products it is their jobs as salespeople to answer to the cutomer.



Sounds like the man is keeping you down.

I must say that you sound like someone any vendor would want to stay away from. For one this section will make other vendors know about customers that may just be a problem. I guess the problem is that just because someone spends money with a company does not give anyone the right to act like an ass on this forum, and think they can come on here and bash without just cause.

Most vendors on this forum also sell products for other car lines. If they feel that this forum allows vendor bashing on it then they will leave it and sell their products to others. Before you know it you will have no vendors here. The forum will find other ways to fund itself and people like you with a hard on will have no one to bash. You will also have no products to buy but that is cool.

Why is it that a vendor cannot have a bad day. Most vendors here will stand behind their products if you give them a chance. To many times I see that the customer just does not want to wait. We are dealing with a small market here. Most these things are custom made for this car. It take time to get things. I hear it all day long from the companies that I deal with. They tell me that they could not ship out this week even after I was told it had all ready been shipped. I cannot piss and act like an ass with them. They will not sell me next time. So when I have to tell a customer, sorry but it is not ready to ship because I am still waiting for a part. I do not want to hear them piss and act like an ass either. It will not change anything any how. Yes it may be your only car and you need to get to work or to class but things happen. As vendors we also have deadlines to meet and cannot make them all. It is parts of life.

[UnNaturalinc]

Sounds like the man is keeping you down.

I must say that you sound like someone any vendor would want to stay away from. For one this section will make other vendors know about customers that may just be a problem. I guess the problem is that just because someone spends money with a company does not give anyone the right to act like an ass on this forum, and think they can come on here and bash without just cause.

Most vendors on this forum also sell products for other car lines. If they feel that this forum allows vendor bashing on it then they will leave it and sell their products to others. Before you know it you will have no vendors here. The forum will find other ways to fund itself and people like you with a hard on will have no one to bash. You will also have no products to buy but that is cool.

Why is it that a vendor cannot have a bad day. Most vendors here will stand behind their products if you give them a chance. To many times I see that the customer just does not want to wait. We are dealing with a small market here. Most these things are custom made for this car. It take time to get things. I hear it all day long from the companies that I deal with. They tell me that they could not ship out this week even after I was told it had all ready been shipped. I cannot piss and act like an ass with them. They will not sell me next time. So when I have to tell a customer, sorry but it is not ready to ship because I am still waiting for a part. I do not want to hear them piss and act like an ass either. It will not change anything any how. Yes it may be your only car and you need to get to work or to class but things happen. As vendors we also have deadlines to meet and cannot make them all. It is parts of life.

:stands up and claps:

[TurfBurn]

Never have to worry about what Nick really thinks... which for as much as some people freak, it is a good quality to have in a vendor! I agree completely as well.. not to mention the image a vendor has is a HUGE part of their selling power.... it only takes a few bad comments by one or two customers to REALLY damage that reputation and hurt sales in turn.

[Tito1]

:stands up and claps:

I don't get why some of you feel the need to get all defensive, all the while making a pretty bold assumption of me.

If you actually read my post you'd see that I'm not even commenting on the vendors or this idea of a 'vendor place'. Although I'm not sure how the 'vendor section will protect you. But it is a start.

My comment 'This is not an issue with the vendors, b/c the vendor was just as confused as to why the post was deleted. It is an issue with the mods. If the board is a censored discussion, the credibility of the vendors is lost.'

This is what I was hoping you could address.
Not the fact that I 'sound like someone any vendor would want to stay away from.' Does this make sense after you actually read my post.

So what do y'all think about the Mods deleted the users critical posts? Not flaming, not unreasonable, but supplying info. Does this hurt credibility?

[TurfBurn]

So what do y'all think about the Mods deleted the users critical posts? Not flaming, not unreasonable, but supplying info. Does this hurt credibility?

the question is were they REALLY not flaming, not unreasonable etc... do you know for sure there wasn't a history behind it? or that the individual posting was being tactful and appropriate and that they had a legitimate complaint??? The problem is a LOT of customers will flame and cause damage and THINK they are being reasonable when they are not, or they are completely incorrect... and even if the vendor comes out on top at the end as being correct... their reputation will still be hurt because of the possible "suspect" of a problem... again.. image is everything.

[Tito1]

the question is were they REALLY not flaming, not unreasonable etc... do you know for sure there wasn't a history behind it? or that the individual posting was being tactful and appropriate and that they had a legitimate complaint??? The problem is a LOT of customers will flame and cause damage and THINK they are being reasonable when they are not, or they are completely incorrect... and even if the vendor comes out on top at the end as being correct... their reputation will still be hurt because of the possible "suspect" of a problem... again.. image is everything.

I know there was no flaming, cause it was me bringing up that particular point. But the point in inconsequential now, b/c we can't even go back look at the conversation. Although I certainly was not flaming, my information could have been incorrect...everyone makes mistakes. But I couldn't even redeem myself, 'cause it WAS DELETED.

As far as history. I have never acted as a troll, purposefully flamed anyone, etc. I'm pretty quiet on the forums. So when I returned to the thread to see any response, and it was gone...I was very suprised and angered. oh well

[UnNaturalinc]

I don't get why some of you feel the need to get all defensive, all the while making a pretty bold assumption of me.

If you actually read my post you'd see that I'm not even commenting on the vendors or this idea of a 'vendor place'. Although I'm not sure how the 'vendor section will protect you. But it is a start.

My comment 'This is not an issue with the vendors, b/c the vendor was just as confused as to why the post was deleted. It is an issue with the mods. If the board is a censored discussion, the credibility of the vendors is lost.'

This is what I was hoping you could address.
Not the fact that I 'sound like someone any vendor would want to stay away from.' Does this make sense after you actually read my post.

So what do y'all think about the Mods deleted the users critical posts? Not flaming, not unreasonable, but supplying info. Does this hurt credibility?

I'm not sure why you are quoting me, I didn't say anything about you. My post was in reference to what MPNick posted.

[Tito1]

I'm not sure why you are quoting me, I didn't say anything about you. My post was in reference to what MPNick posted.

Well you were the last one to post, and MSNick's entire post was in reference to me. If you were not applauding him for 'calling me out' than what were you applauding?

btw this is really off topic, what do think about what I actually posted???

[Tito1]

s Turfburn the only one who actually reads posts?

[UnNaturalinc]

Well you were the last one to post, and MSNick's entire post was in reference to me. If you were not applauding him for 'calling me out' than what were you applauding?

btw this is really off topic, what do think about what I actually posted???

It looks to me very little of what he said was actually about you. Even if it all was, he was making general points... and they were good points. As someone who has worked in this industry for 5 years, I can say he hit the nail on the head with many issues I have had over the years.


What you posted where, here?

[Tito1]

My comment 'This is not an issue with the vendors, b/c the vendor was just as confused as to why the post was deleted. It is an issue with the mods. If the board is a censored discussion, the credibility of the vendors is lost.'

This is what I was hoping you could address.

So what do y'all think about the Mods deleted the users critical posts? Not flaming, not unreasonable, but supplying info. Does this hurt credibility?

Is it that cryptic???

[CorkSport]

Tito1 Isn't the title, 'vendor AND consumer protection guidelines'? So the mods want to protect the precious vendors.

It seems like a large part of the problem is the inability of the vendors to make good on the promises. I'm not pointing fingers, and don't want too, but WTF are we protecting Vendors from? If they are not late on shipments, late on responses, late on products, or selling underperforing products it is their jobs as salespeople to answer to the cutomer.

I've had posts deleted just for pointing out that a particular vendor did not have the exclusive rights to a product that they claimed. I go back an hour later and guess what...the posts are gone. Clearly I have no stake in a 'Vendors only' area, but what about a members area where the mods aren't protecting their paying vendors.

This is not an issue with the vendors, b/c the vendor was just as confused as to why the post was deleted. It is an issue with the mods. If the board is a censored discussion, the credibility of the vendors is lost.

I'm sorry, but that action by the mods has me questioning all info on the boards regarding the vendors products. And it is not b/c of a bad Vendor experience.

Wow. This seems familiar to me but I could be mistaken. Did a vendor actually claim exclusive rights to a product ?
Seems fair to let vendors air out concerns or discuss "vendor-type-stuff" If we make our living as vendors it helps to relate to other vendors to protect each other from damaging situations. The same goes for customers protecting themselves from unscrupulous vendors.
Customers don't have to deal with people who cancel orders or don't show up for appointments or order the wrong part and don't wish to assume responsibilty. We have to deal with it and that's OK, it's part of the job. On the other hand we mess up sometimes as well, but some customers will attack like a pack of wolves on bleeding pig who is lost in the forest and only wants to get home to the trough. Show us some mercy. I have had to do some big time cleaning since I got here a few months ago due to 1 faulty product and that was my distributers mistake but I get to deal with it if I want to continue using this manufacturer. I won't go ballistic on them for one mistake, they fixed it. I'm an adult (most days), grade school trained me for this kind of thing.
If we all take a little extra responsibility on both sides of the fence things will be lucky charms and rainbows with buttermilk.

This was a lot for me to type, sorry.

[Tito1]

^^^^All too familiar. I totally agree with your perspective. And the 'pack of wolves' mentality is b.s. and shouldn't be tolerated. At the same time, dealing unhappy customers are a part of sales. And here the medium itself (internet)and the nature of this market (people passionate about their cars), one would have to expect hardcore critisisms. Now cheaters/theives are a whole other story, and they should be banned.
Anyhow members do need to have freedom to post opinions freely. Albeit within norms.

Of course most of the REAL greivencenes I have seen have been between non-venors...no big surprise there.

I'll let you all get back to planning the 'vendor section'. My point has been made and I hope the Mods' take it to heart and use more descretion while editing active threads. Enjoy!

[Tito1]

Amaizing...this thread just died

[DSMConvert]

i like this vendor section idea....hehe gee i wonder what 3 names will be the first topic of discussion in this new section (sssh)

[CorkSport]

Where do vendors go to "type trash" when they're all fired up?

Just curious.

[evilmonkeyMSP]

where ever I believe...you're a vendor but you're also a member like eveybody else...



Where do vendors go to "type trash" when they're all fired up?

Just curious.

[jurgs01]

Where do vendors go to "type trash" when they're all fired up?

Just curious.

I'm pretty sure you guys have your own forum that no one else can see.(shrug)

[TurfBurn]

I'm pretty sure you guys have your own forum that no one else can see.(shrug)

we do.. but we can't type in it yet as far as I could tell..

And we can't vent "wherever" because then it is unprofessional, inappropriate, or whatever else and someone will make a comment.

Hell some of us can't even ask a question to something we need help on publicly because if we do we'll get credibility questions.

[CorkSport]

we do.. but we can't type in it yet as far as I could tell..

Yes I found that out.
It's not the same when I write it down or try to talk to the monitor.



And we can't vent "wherever" because then it is unprofessional, inappropriate, or whatever else and someone will make a comment.

Good lord that is true. I already push the the bounds of "unprofessional".

I just want to vent and b$#*h somewhere potential customers can't see it once in a while. I've got a flat spot on my forehead that matches the hole in my wall.

Thanks for not flaming my retarded post.

[Captain KRM P5]

we need a forum for ourselves for reasons like this;

http://www.msprotege.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1833190#post1833190

[Antoine]

Vendor Views Forum is NOW OPEN!

I will posting some guidelines and rules soon...Enjoy ;)

[UnNaturalinc]

I already push the the bounds of "unprofessional".



Nu uh, really? Where?

(friday)