Why don't Japanese come out with a $25k 250 hp RWD 3 series fighter

[mikeyb]

Over the last 10 years, the BMW 3 series has been the pinnacle of the sports sedan. The car commands a high dollar premium for its power and size. The car while still fairly practicle is great to drive.

This begs the question to me, it seems like there is a huge market for the Japanese to build a fairly inexpensive, basic high performance RWD sedan to compete w/ the Beemer.

For Example, I would love to be driving a Acura TSX type of car w/ less frilly options, but w/ RWD and Power from the S2000. Honda is a great engineering company. I love driving stick shifts and the s2000 is simply the best. Their engines are smooth and great revvers. They could easily capture this market.

Now I know people will say what about the WRX, EVO, or RX8. Well, I don't want a turbo charged car, and I don't want a souped up riced out econo car. The RX8 is very close to this, but I don't want a rotary engine. They get terrible MPG, the burn oil and are overly complex.

I just want a naturally aspirated 6 or possibly a high revving honda 4.

Toyota doesn't even come close as they have lost all of their sporting aspirations.

The new IS 250 would be OK, but its a little short on power, too expensive, and I don't need all the frills.
Any thoughts?

[SpicyMchaggis]

Because people don't buy BMW's and Benz's for performance anymore, they haven't since the late 80's. They buy them to be seen in. That's just the sad reality. I give a lot of credit to the japanese companies for NOT trying to compete with that.

[toucci]

The IS300 with TRD parts sounds like it fits the bill.

[JCell]

^^ true, and i much as i love BWM, i hate them for making the cluthless m3, pisses me off

when i use to work valet, the first time i got into these clutchless cars, the owner thought he was all that sayin "it's a manual, without that stupid clutch"

stupiest shit i've ever seen

[SpicyMchaggis]

But he is saying car's rolling off the line designed specifically to compete with the Germans. BMW and Mercedes are just in their own little world. However, there is one car company that everyone needs to be more focused on competing with. That is Audi. They dominate the sports sedan world. They have for over a decade. 300hp FF Maxima's and the like aren't cutting the cheese says I.

[Roywhitep5]

we need another ae86. even a litmited production stripped down car with no a/c & stereo.

[Bill Brasky]

Have you forgotten the Infiniti G35? Especially now that the 2005 models have 280-290 hp (depending on transmission), it's certainly in the BMW league from a power perspective, and it's rwd. What'd be interesting is a factory-tuned Nismo version with, say, 350 hp or so (nothing obscene). Or just cram in the V8 and call it the G45. I'd pay 40 grand for one.

[FBI14]

Audi ?? (notcool)


February 5, 2003<!-- date --> <!-- body -->
Volkswagen and Audi will recall more than half a million vehicles to replace a defective ignition coil that leaves the cars prone to sudden power losses and potential engine damage.
The action comes too late to soothe thousands of VW and Audi owners.

"The unreliability of the ignition problem and the lack of initiative by VW has killed any enthusiasm I have with the Passat," Paula of Horseheads, NY (http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/vw_coils.html), wrote to ConsumerAffairs.Com recently.

"I am waiting to see if the coil breaks a 4th time before 28,000 miles," said Christopher of North Smithfield, RI, whose 2001 Passat has already burned through three defective coils.

Recalled models include 2001, 2002, and early production 2003 Volkswagen Golf/GTIs, Jettas, New Beetles, and Passats, and Audi A4s and TTs. All have 1.8-liter turbocharged engines. The companies also said the defect potentially affects the VW Passat W8 engine, all VWs equipped with the 2.8-liter VR6, and the Audi 3.0-liter V-6 engine.

[Notorious]

Infiniti G35, current IS300, and new IS350\250

[Mp5978]

A RWD TSX would be nice, heck why not SH-AWD it?

[ZoomZoomH]

I got my RX-8, brand new, for 25k out-of-door........

IMO for the REALWORLD prices that cars are selling for, RX-8s are a GREAT VALUE.

[ZoomZoomH]

and i'm gonna call you a wuss for not trying out the funness of the rotary engine :p

[xFLiPsTyLeZx]

umm...it over 2 years ago.



Audi ?? (notcool)


February 5, 2003<!-- date --> <!-- body -->
Volkswagen and Audi will recall more than half a million vehicles to replace a defective ignition coil that leaves the cars prone to sudden power losses and potential engine damage.
The action comes too late to soothe thousands of VW and Audi owners.

"The unreliability of the ignition problem and the lack of initiative by VW has killed any enthusiasm I have with the Passat," Paula of Horseheads, NY (http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/vw_coils.html), wrote to ConsumerAffairs.Com recently.

"I am waiting to see if the coil breaks a 4th time before 28,000 miles," said Christopher of North Smithfield, RI, whose 2001 Passat has already burned through three defective coils.

Recalled models include 2001, 2002, and early production 2003 Volkswagen Golf/GTIs, Jettas, New Beetles, and Passats, and Audi A4s and TTs. All have 1.8-liter turbocharged engines. The companies also said the defect potentially affects the VW Passat W8 engine, all VWs equipped with the 2.8-liter VR6, and the Audi 3.0-liter V-6 engine.

[FBI14]

umm...it over 2 years ago.


the history Audi has had is not been that pristine, back in the early 90's late 80's I think they had problems with their cars accelerating ( or along those lines) when people were not pressing down on the accelerator... and about that article, have you ever been in a car doing 60+ in the left lane when your ignition coils fail and have no more power to get to the shoulder...

Heres a few highlights of a Audi Review <O:p</O:p


"Unfortunately for Audi, NHTSA is again investigating complaints of sudden acceleration, now in A6 models" <O:p</O:p

"They had their charms to be sure, but they weren't all that dependable or well built — at least by German luxury-car standards." (Speaking about Audis of the past) <O:p</O:p

<O:p</O:p
If you feel comfortable dropping $30,000+ and driving a car the comes from a company with that type of history and problems that still plague the company that continued into the new century....be my guest

[YuYuRena]

Look at the progress from E30 to E46 to the next gen of 3 series and even the coveted M3. They have only gotten softer, imho, moonroof, leather seats, heated seats, dvd navi, power this, power that, etc...

That's the general trend of the auto industry in general. people want more "stuff" in their cars. Gone are the days that people only wanted a "decent" chassis with a good responsive engine that's it. Well at least only Lotus still build that with their Elise. Almost all the cars have their edge taken away, why? Because 99.9% of the population drive them as a commuter or grocery "van."

There really isn't a huge demand out there for the strip down no-frill rwd cars, or at least not where the bulk of the buyers and the fatter margins can be made.

It's a sad truth, but I agree with you. at least Toyota should have the decency to bring the Altezza 200 with its "upgraded" 3SGE over, but no they are contend with building "old people" cars.

[chuyler1]

The early-80s problem with the audis turned out to be partially user error. The pedals were too close together and when people would put them in drive with their foot on the brake they would jump forward because their foot was also on the gas pedal.

Regardless, the track record for the Germans is attrocious. Sure they make the ultimate driving machines, but they don't last and are a bad investment.

Furthermore, the market for RWD cars is very very small these days. The upper 1/3 of the US and all of Canada would rather have AWD, 4WD, or FWD. Sure there are alot of people driving Bimmers in New England but they are the upper class owners who also have an SUV in their garage for when the weather goes fowl. A person like that isn't going to buy a cheap performance-oriented RWD car.

[mikeyb]

I know alot of BMW and Benz owners that drive their RWD cars in New England during winter. You have to see the winter tire packages go out the door at my work.

[mikeyb]

The IS300 with TRD parts sounds like it fits the bill.

A TRD IS300 is over $30K.

[mikeyb]

^^ true, and i much as i love BWM, i hate them for making the cluthless m3, pisses me off

when i use to work valet, the first time i got into these clutchless cars, the owner thought he was all that sayin "it's a manual, without that stupid clutch"

stupiest shit i've ever seen

Are you talking about the SMG? You can still get a clutch in a M3.

[mikeyb]

Have you forgotten the Infiniti G35? Especially now that the 2005 models have 280-290 hp (depending on transmission), it's certainly in the BMW league from a power perspective, and it's rwd. What'd be interesting is a factory-tuned Nismo version with, say, 350 hp or so (nothing obscene). Or just cram in the V8 and call it the G45. I'd pay 40 grand for one.

Over the $25K pricetag of a Acura TSX.

[mikeyb]

I got my RX-8, brand new, for 25k out-of-door........

IMO for the REALWORLD prices that cars are selling for, RX-8s are a GREAT VALUE.

I think the RX-8 is the only car that fits the bill. Honda/Acura , Nissan, and Toyota should be doing something similar.

[mikeyb]

Look at the progress from E30 to E46 to the next gen of 3 series and even the coveted M3. They have only gotten softer, imho, moonroof, leather seats, heated seats, dvd navi, power this, power that, etc...

That's the general trend of the auto industry in general. people want more "stuff" in their cars. Gone are the days that people only wanted a "decent" chassis with a good responsive engine that's it. Well at least only Lotus still build that with their Elise. Almost all the cars have their edge taken away, why? Because 99.9% of the population drive them as a commuter or grocery "van."

There really isn't a huge demand out there for the strip down no-frill rwd cars, or at least not where the bulk of the buyers and the fatter margins can be made.

It's a sad truth, but I agree with you. at least Toyota should have the decency to bring the Altezza 200 with its "upgraded" 3SGE over, but no they are contend with building "old people" cars.

I see your point but the E30 to E90 3 series is not a good car to use. The E30 M3 has sunroof and heated leather seats just like the E36s and E46s. The M3 has become soft to be able to market to more people. The E30 M3 is a race car for the street.

[jflo]

i love the e30 M3s...

a BMW 330i/ci is priced at over $36k at the moment. i think you're getting a value if you can get a g35 or 350z for under $32k.